[HN Gopher] Reddit's Recently Announced API Changes, and the fut...
___________________________________________________________________
Reddit's Recently Announced API Changes, and the future of /r/blind
Author : nickcotter
Score : 308 points
Date : 2023-06-07 18:19 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (old.reddit.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (old.reddit.com)
| whyenot wrote:
| Reddit is shooting itself in the foot by effectively banning the
| tools that moderators use to do their free labor. I'm surprised
| Reddit didn't take a slower and more gradual approach instead of
| a drastic change like this. I guess Steve Huffman has IPO fever.
| jerglingu wrote:
| And it's not like they don't understand the importance of mods'
| free labor to keep subreddits clean of filth and users
| visiting/contributing. I know somebody who worked there years
| ago, and it was understood that they had to preserve the good
| will and trust from mods of subreddits to keep Reddit in a
| functional and orderly state.
| thih9 wrote:
| The community seems to overwhelmingly support the protest.
| Perhaps this is an opportunity for a coordinated move elsewhere?
| wvenable wrote:
| Need somewhere to go. There is no second-tier reddit
| alternative that's good enough for everyone to migrate to.
|
| Seems like there's a good opportunity for a single service that
| is a Facebook/Twitter/Reddit alternative.
| EdSchouten wrote:
| Interesting! TIL there is a Windows desktop application called
| "Reddit for Blind" that can be used to access Reddit with a
| screen reader:
|
| https://www.redditforblind.org
|
| My instinctive reaction was: "No screenshots on the page!" A
| couple of seconds later I realised how silly that was, but now as
| a non-blind person I am interested in knowing what the overall
| user experience is. Respect for the person maintaining this app!
| benced wrote:
| It's a real bummer that computers should be strictly superior to
| non-digital technology for accessibility (a book is a book and
| doesn't change after it's printed) but for economic reasons, it
| won't be. I can't even super blame Reddit - they're just
| capitalists trying to make money. It just feels like an own-goal
| by humanity.
| SilasX wrote:
| Yep. Every time someone suggests a special blind-friendly API,
| I remind them that HTML _was_ that API, and it just got
| bastardized over time, so you need to figure out how you'd keep
| it from going through that same process with whatever new thing
| you propose.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30727672
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20224961
| pierat wrote:
| As an example of how this has beeen completely perverted....
|
| Here's a snippet of HTML from Facebook advert
| https://imgur.com/Wx8rIOm.png
|
| Just for "Hydrow <blue_checkmark> Sponsored" is the following
| HTML
|
| <div class="xb57i2i x1q594ok x5lxg6s x78zum5 xdt5ytf x6ikm8r
| x1ja2u2z x1pq812k x1rohswg xfk6m8 x1yqm8si xjx87ck x1l7klhg
| x1iyjqo2 xs83m0k x2lwn1j xx8ngbg xwo3gff x1oyok0e x1odjw0f
| x1e4zzel x1n2onr6 xq1qtft"><div class="x78zum5 xdt5ytf
| x1iyjqo2 x1n2onr6"><div class="xjm9jq1 xg01cxk x47corl
| x10l6tqk x1i1rx1s x13vifvy"></div><div
| class="x1xmf6yo"><div><div><div data-
| visualcompletion="ignore-dynamic" style="padding-left: 8px;
| padding-right: 8px;">
|
| Also, attempting to highlight "sponsored" also jumps back and
| forth because their scripts basically jigsaw the letters
| together from bits. And, almost all of their content on pages
| look like this. My guess is to jam up adblockers. But it also
| screws over anybody with visual difficulties (reduction of
| visibility to blindness).
| pixl97 wrote:
| Yea, randomized to avoid adblockers catching the div.
| EamonnMR wrote:
| On the contrary, I think you can blame people who make
| antisocial choices. In fact, you have to.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| hate the player not the game eh
| JohnFen wrote:
| It's fine to hate both. The players allow the game to
| continue as it is, after all.
| kadoban wrote:
| In what sense is this white knighting? If anything it's
| approximately the opposite.
| jmclnx wrote:
| This is interesting, I did not realize (but should have) APIs
| were used to help blind people.
|
| In this case, I think reddit could face legal issues, at least in
| the US. So now to me, looks like this change was not fully
| analyzed.
| tiedieconderoga wrote:
| There might be precedent, if their site and app don't make
| reasonable accomodations.
|
| https://casetext.com/analysis/national-association-of-the-de...
| azemetre wrote:
| There's a difference between accommodations and full blown
| not designing an accessible website. I'm honestly shocked to
| find out much of reddit is inaccessible and not following
| WCAG AA spec.
|
| Seems like a slam dunk for a law firm looking for an easy
| payout.
| SLJ7 wrote:
| > but should have
|
| Not really, as the entire reason the API helps us is because
| Reddit has done such an appallingly bad job at accessibility.
| There were great third-party Twitter apps and I used them, but
| when they all shut down, I wasn't left with nothing; the
| Twitter app (and even the website) are usable. (Although
| Twitter fired their entire accessibility team so time will tell
| if it stays that way.)
| BeetleB wrote:
| I doubt it: What laws are they violating? If you get federal
| grants, your site needs to be accessible. There are other
| categories (e.g. OTA broadcasts). Not sure there is anything
| that would apply to a site like Reddit.
| EMIRELADERO wrote:
| > I doubt it: What laws are they violating?
|
| The ADA?
| BeetleB wrote:
| Specifically which clause?
| EMIRELADERO wrote:
| Courts have found websites to constitute "public
| accomodations".
| ncr100 wrote:
| for websites?
|
| https://www.ada.gov/resources/web-guidance/
|
| HOLY HELL: https://archive.ada.gov/peapod_sa.htm
|
| You can sue Reddit ! ! !
|
| DO IT!
| endisneigh wrote:
| Unpopular opinion but I bet Reddit survives this just fine. Those
| complaining probably aren't clicking the ads and there are enough
| people who are addicted to Reddit to replace any mods who leave.
|
| The energy is better spent getting Reddit to improve their
| official app imho
| netfortius wrote:
| If the survival is of the Twitter type, then good luck with the
| IPO
| deckard1 wrote:
| Digg is still around. So is Slashdot. For some definition of
| "still around."
|
| > The energy is better spent getting Reddit to improve their
| official app imho
|
| The market forces of a site like Reddit (or most web sites,
| frankly) are fundamentally against accessibility. The mobile
| web site nags me _constantly_ with a banner popup to install
| their native app. How does one even talk about accessibility in
| the presence of dark patterns that make a site inaccessible to
| even those without the need for a11y?
|
| If I'm being blunt, a11y is nothing more than a sledge hammer
| that devs use to bash other devs over the head with. A lot of
| "thou shall nots" with not a whole lot of actual user testing.
| Sprinkling aria attributes and "semantic" tags all over your
| DOM doesn't make your site accessible. Not when you're _also_
| putting in ads, carousels, and various other things that go
| completely against it.
| ShakataGaNai wrote:
| It will survive, but in what manner?
|
| Reddit is currently deeply integrated into the cultural
| zeitgeist. Much in the way that Digg used to be _the_ discovery
| mechanism for the forefront of internet culture. Then v4 hit
| and everyone fled to reddit. Yes, Digg is still there but it 's
| not the Digg of pre-2010.
|
| Twitter is still around post-Elon, but with a lot less
| relevance and lot fewer legitimate users.
|
| Reddit will still be here in a year, no matter what. But it may
| look _very different_ than how it looks today.
| onionisafruit wrote:
| Is Twitter less relevant? I'm not an active user, but I
| haven't seen a decrease in links to tweets over the past few
| months.
| motogpjimbo wrote:
| I think the phrase "legitimate users" is worthy of scrutiny
| in the comment you replied to.
| mustacheemperor wrote:
| I've only ever really consumed twitter secondhand like you,
| but I have observed that since the acquisition the quality
| of discussion in replies to tweets I am linked seems to
| have significantly dropped, and as objectively as one can
| opine about that kind of thing. Just angry graffiti and
| dumpster fire arguments about at-best-tangentially related
| culture war topics in reply to _everything._ I 've made
| this comparison once already in this thread, but it reminds
| me of comments on youtube in the mid 00s.
|
| But hey, youtube comments never improved much and that site
| is still highly relevant today, so hard to make a
| prediction based off my observed anecdote. And I've never
| used twitter much at all, so maybe I just hadn't noticed
| before.
| petersellers wrote:
| I wonder if the observed decline in discussion quality
| has any correlation with the "boost" that is given to
| comments from accounts with blue check marks.
| TylerE wrote:
| Yes. A large number of the people I followed who actually
| posted interesting content (as opposed to bots retweeting
| press releases) either greatly curtailed posting, or quit
| all together. I followed them out the door.
| onionisafruit wrote:
| I keep seeing people say this, and I expect to see a
| decrease in the number of tweets I see linked from the
| subreddits I follow. But the tweets keep coming. Maybe
| it's subject matter. I primarily see tweets in sports-
| related subreddits, so for all I know athletes and sports
| writers could be the only people still using twitter.
| TylerE wrote:
| Most of the sports accounts would fall under "Retweeting
| press releases". I'm talking about people I followed,
| many of whom were historians so would often publish
| original analysis, pictures they'd personally combed the
| archives for and digitized, that sort of thing.
|
| Very much NOT pop culture/politics/etc.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| So because your circle left Twitter is dead...
|
| The massive arrogance it takes to believe that is very
| amusing...
|
| So allow me to add mine... I refused twitter until after
| Elon bought it, Lots of people I know did the same, now
| we are all on their daily, and enjoy the shit out of post
| elon Twitter, so Twitter is clearly the best site ever.
| onionisafruit wrote:
| That's not cool to call a fellow hackernews massively
| arrogant.
| TylerE wrote:
| What's even weirder is someone obviously worshiping Elon,
| probably the single most arrogant person to ever exist,
| accusing someone else of being arrogant. I'm not going to
| waste mental cycles on one who's post history clearly
| reveals them as a Qultist.
| raverbashing wrote:
| But the power users are the ones who feed the community (and do
| moderation, etc)
|
| On a second thought, maybe that's Reddit's idea, just turn it
| into a GPT generated and Astroturfing maelstrom and see what
| happens
| zouhair wrote:
| How can Reddit survive without mods? Reddit will start hiring
| mods? Most of the content on Reddit is made by a minority of
| hardcore users, most of them are angry now.
|
| You could argue Digg is still alive right now, I won't call it
| that though.
| jacurtis wrote:
| Reddit will survive just fine.
|
| But potentially consider this comment from the linked reddit
| post. It is heartbreaking.
|
| > I'm just so tired! That is all! I'm so tired of feeling left
| behind by people who aren't aware, and who don't care. The
| choices we have for social media really aren't much, and if
| they don't care about third party apps, what else are they
| going to throw away? Will we lose this place too?
|
| The decision has many side effects that Reddit is not
| acknowledging and it is important to recognize the importance
| that an API can have, particuarly on accessibility.
|
| Will reddit survive. Oh yeah, they will be absolutely fine. But
| their decision does negatively impact the world and that is the
| important story here.
| endisneigh wrote:
| You don't need an api to be accessible, hence why pressure
| should be put on Reddit to make their app and site accessible
| to begin with.
|
| I do feel for the poster, though.
| websap wrote:
| Yup, this is the Silicon Valley model. Burn and churn people.
| yakkityyak wrote:
| I'm not so sure. Non ad-clicking/viewing users still generate a
| lot of content.
|
| Official apps always struggle to balance shoving ads in your
| face and being an actually nice to use app.
| parasti wrote:
| It seems a safe assumption that nobody is clicking the ads.
| Beached wrote:
| I think Reddit will continue, but I see it getting worse.
| moderation with bots already sucks enough, I can't imagine how
| horrible reddit without bots will be.
| gnulinux wrote:
| On a second thought, I completely agree with this. I think
| people have a lot of hope because reddit sucks but the reality
| is way too many people are addicted to reddit. I know because I
| struggle not to check reddit all the time. People will likely
| need a good replacement for reddit to go down.
| rightbyte wrote:
| Install the Leechblock browser extension. Begin with
| timeslotting Reddit and then just make it permanent. It is
| just muscle memory to go there. I did not miss it.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| History serves you as correct. Though, I think the energy is
| more properly spent weaning off of Reddit and fostering a new
| community. I've seen feature requests from almost a decade ago
| being promised and there's not even a shred of progress on
| them. At that point, why not make it yourself?
|
| 100k people leaving reddit won't kill reddit, but 100k people
| can definitely form it's own active community. That many more
| people than most reddit alternatives as of now.
| shmatt wrote:
| No way these apps actually shut down
|
| An app like Apollo - which is so important Apple is featuring
| front and center at their biggest announcement of the decade,
| won't attempt to add some caching, poll less for push
| notifications, and/or charge $5/month, before shutting things
| down for good?
|
| All of these app developers are fear mongering, and hiding
| their true plans, im 100% sure of this
|
| At the minimum they could sell to someone else for many
| millions of dollars, and they'll do the things I described
| alpaca128 wrote:
| _> An app like Apollo - which is so important Apple is
| featuring front and center_
|
| Being featured by Apple doesn't pay the bills and Reddit
| obviously doesn't listen.
|
| _> won 't attempt to add some caching, poll less for push
| notifications_
|
| The Apollo developer has repeatedly asked Reddit to offer a
| more efficient method of getting notifications that doesn't
| require polling. The app backend already uses caching and
| only a small fraction of the allowed request budget. Reddit
| doesn't care.
|
| _> and /or charge $5/month_
|
| $5/month are not enough, in case you didn't notice Reddit's
| new pricing is insane. Also according to the developer about
| 10% of users pay the monthly premium subscription. Make it
| mandatory and most users will be gone.
|
| _> At the minimum they could sell to someone else for many
| millions of dollars, and they 'll do the things I described_
|
| Even if the things you described weren't already long
| implemented, they don't change the prices which are simply
| too high for third-party apps to survive.
| occz wrote:
| Time will tell. I'd bet that a sizable amount of people posting
| the content that actually drives engagement with the website
| cares about this change, and I think that there's not as many
| people excited to do unpaid labour in the form of modding as
| you may think.
| digging wrote:
| It will survive, but the quality of conversation will continue
| to degrade. It will gain users, but they will be less
| productive and less engaged. But they will also see more ads.
| iLoveOncall wrote:
| > Those complaining probably aren't clicking the ads
|
| The ONLY real reason people are complaining is because using
| the official app means seing ads.
|
| All the arguments thrown around there are whataboutisms to try
| to justify the fact that they want to keep profiteering off of
| Reddit, that's it.
| [deleted]
| dbg31415 wrote:
| How is Reddit not required to be WCAG compliant?
| tarboreus wrote:
| They are, but lawsuits take years, and management is often
| ignorant about their responsibilities.
| twh270 wrote:
| Are they? Link I pasted above
| (https://www.ada.gov/resources/web-guidance/) tells me they
| aren't.
|
| Happy to correct if I'm wrong.
| paddw wrote:
| The definition for public accommodation is purposely
| ambiguous, but so far, it seems no one has tried to make
| the case that a site like Reddit would count as one.
| twh270 wrote:
| They aren't a "public accommodation"
| (https://www.ada.gov/resources/web-guidance/).
| themerone wrote:
| From that page:
|
| Title III prohibits discrimination against people with
| disabilities by businesses open to the public (also referred
| to as "public accommodations" under the ADA)
|
| Reddit is definitely a business open to the public.
| tiedieconderoga wrote:
| According to that link, it sounds like they are:
|
| >Title III prohibits discrimination against people with
| disabilities by businesses open to the public (also referred
| to as "public accommodations" under the ADA). The ADA
| requires that businesses open to the public provide full and
| equal enjoyment of their goods, services, facilities,
| privileges, advantages, or accommodations to people with
| disabilities. [...]
|
| >A website with inaccessible features can limit the ability
| of people with disabilities to access a public
| accommodation's goods, services, and privileges available
| through that website--for example, a veterans' service
| organization event registration form.
|
| >For these reasons, the Department has consistently taken the
| position that the ADA's requirements apply to all the goods,
| services, privileges, or activities offered by public
| accommodations, including those offered on the web.
|
| The courts also found that Netflix was a public accomodation
| in 2015 as part of a lawsuit, and Netflix was forced to
| provide subtitles on 100% of their programming.
| TylerE wrote:
| I'm not convinced. Reddit is a platform, not a store.
|
| Stores are expected to follow the ADA for things like wheel
| chair accessibility.
|
| If they put up a community bulletin board, no reasonable
| person would expect them to rip down anything that doesn't
| include Braille.
| Marsymars wrote:
| > If they put up a community bulletin board, no
| reasonable person would expect them to rip down anything
| that doesn't include Braille.
|
| If there was a readily-available bulletin board that cost
| somewhat more, but that automatically displayed in
| Braille to the side any posted items, a reasonable person
| might expect that they go with the expensive Auto-
| Braille-Board.
|
| And a reasonable person would very likely expect them
| _not_ to go with the bulletin board that actively
| obfuscates the ability of people to use their own photo-
| to-speech devices on posted items.
| TylerE wrote:
| If horses had horns they'd be unicorns.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| disruptive, but you _can_ pay for it.........
|
| like the costs are absurd... for existing communities... but if
| there is utility then......
|
| I dont know I can tell I'm stepping on eggshells here for
| something thats clearly going to happen the way I describe, and
| not how the protest describes
| paulcole wrote:
| > On May 31, 2023, Reddit announced they were raising the price
| to make calls to their API from being free to a level that will
| kill every third party app on Reddit, from Apollo, to Dystopia,
| to Reddit for Blind, to Luna for Reddit, to BaconReader
|
| This is what I don't get. Nothing's been killed. They can keep
| existing, they just have to pay. Why is nobody talking about just
| passing the cost along to the consumer and seeing how
| objectionable the cost really is?
| alephaleph wrote:
| We know the costs and they're ridiculous. Under the new pricing
| the _average_ user of one third party app (Apollo) uses $2.50
| worth of requests per month.
| paulcole wrote:
| OK so charge people $9 a month to use Apollo?
| petersellers wrote:
| Doing that is going to kill a huge percentage of Apollo's
| user base. It's not a foregone conclusion that the app will
| die, but the chances of that happening are much much
| greater now than they were before. If you were the
| developer of Apollo I think you'd have every reason to be
| worried about that, and any opposition to this change would
| be justified.
| paulcole wrote:
| > Doing that is going to kill a huge percentage of
| Apollo's user base
|
| Wait until you find out what happens to Apollo's user
| base if they pay less than the API costs.
| petersellers wrote:
| Not sure what your point is here?
|
| We're talking about the fact that Reddit's API prices are
| going to be extremely high going forward. Your response
| was a dismissive "just charge 9 dollars". Obviously that
| is going to cause a lot of pain for all third party
| developers, which is the whole reason why everyone is
| complaining about this.
| flangola7 wrote:
| I know the popular sentiment is that Reddit is doing this to look
| good for IPO but won't investors _google the business they 're
| about to invest a lot of money in?_
|
| 10 minutes of research makes it completely obvious they're
| endangering their core business.
|
| Reddit doesn't work without functional moderation. Despite years
| of asking, the native mod tools are no where close to parity with
| 3rd party tools. This alienates good mods who are not generic
| gears you can just swap out, building a strong subreddit culture
| and rapport takes years of good faith effort. Then they're
| alienating a sizeable block of the most engaged users, and on top
| of everything they're shameless discriminating against the
| disabled.
|
| Who looks at all that and thinks "yes this is definitely a stable
| venture ran by competent management and a reliable place to
| expect RoI."
|
| Investors are soulless but they are not stupid.
| throwaway202351 wrote:
| I would guess that they'll sell it as "we were able to monetize
| our api and all it cost us were a small subset of users, which
| are more likely to use ad blockers anyway" and then try to hand
| it off to the public before the long term effects of those
| changes happens.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > Investors are soulless but they are not stupid.
|
| To be honest, tons of investors are stupid, don't research
| anything, and/or just go with whatever sounds cool to them.
|
| The idea that "investors" as a group are any more rational than
| other group is a myth dearly held by investors.
| [deleted]
| lelanthran wrote:
| > 10 minutes of research makes it completely obvious they're
| endangering their core business.
|
| It's not that obvious.
|
| To me, at any rate, it's not at all obvious that reddit is in
| any danger of losing a significant number of their members.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Yup. It's just as "obvious" that this shows that management
| is willing to make the big necessary decisions to preserve
| revenue and take back full control of the user experience.
|
| I'm not defending Reddit at all, but very often what annoys
| users is what's good for business (e.g. ads), and so users
| complaining isn't necessarily a bad sign to investors at all.
|
| I would actually say _nothing_ here is obvious yet. Reddit
| doesn 't seem to be in any danger _yet_ , but it really
| depends on whether user dissatisfaction snowballs or fizzles
| out, and that's one of those chaos-theory things that nobody
| knows, and different potential investors will have wildly
| different opinions on.
| jareds wrote:
| As someone who's blind I never looked at Reddit because it was
| not particularly easy to use with a screen reader. Now's a heck
| of a time to discover there are accessible ways of accessing it
| for the next two months.
| nerpderp82 wrote:
| You can at least for now, download any page in json format by
| appending .json to the url.
|
| For instance https://old.reddit.com/r/hackernews/.json
| wget https://old.reddit.com/r/hackernews/.json -O hn.json
| jq -c '.data.children[] | {title: .data.title, domain:
| .data.domain, url: .data.url, upvotes: .data.ups }' hn.json
|
| Results in {"title":"Service Rents Email
| Addresses for Account Signups","domain":"krebsonsecurity.com","
| url":"https://krebsonsecurity.com/2023/06/service-rents-email-
| addresses-for-account-signups/","upvotes":8}
| {"title":"Dell in hot water for making shoppers think
| overpriced monitors were discounted","domain":"arstechnica.com"
| ,"url":"https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/06/dell-in-hot-
| water-for-making-shoppers-think-overpriced-monitors-were-
| discounted/","upvotes":12}
| baggachipz wrote:
| Correction, the next 3 weeks. :)
| squokko wrote:
| If it's any consolation, virtually every subreddit with more
| than 10,000 members is completely worthless
| jahsome wrote:
| Outside of some niche communities, it's been a real crap shoot
| for many years though. I think you may have been spared a lot
| of garbage. I can't really put a finger on when or what changed
| but feel it definitely lost the sheen.
| pawelduda wrote:
| What are better alternatives to Reddit? Yeah, a lot of subs
| are echo chambers, circlejerks and struggle with quality in
| general but if I counted how many times I found it useful
| compared to the rest of Internet on average, I'd be pretty
| rich. I often default my searches to site:old.reddit.com
| <query>, the new UI and app are garbage though.
| asdff wrote:
| What worries me is that this isn't a sustainable position.
| Already the googling for reddit posts sometimes backfires,
| says hey here's a recent comment from two weeks ago but
| then you open it and its the same 5 year old post you've
| already read somehow. Then you have a general decline of
| the quality of the community, more people posting in a
| biased manner than an unbiased one, among other issues. Not
| to mention, advertisers know about reddit too, and are
| probably shilling the crap out of their products to
| respective subreddits who link their offerings in the
| sidebar or the subreddit faq or wiki page. Eventually it's
| going to be no different than any other enshittified corner
| of the internet, which is scary because where do you go
| then? I'd be hunting for actual books again for
| information. Pretty sad that the world wide web is reaching
| a point where the old brick and mortar library is the
| better source of information again, given all the promise
| it had at the start as being a step forward from that.
| ok_dad wrote:
| There is nothing better in terms of information and all-in-
| one knowledge, probably, but I have been using forums and
| some Discords (not much better than Reddit though) for my
| hobby recently and though it's annoying to check several
| places rather than one "front page", I still find I can
| engage with my hobby community perfectly fine. I lost a lot
| of top knowledge that's locked away on Reddit, but I
| honestly just spend a bit more time to research things now
| rather than having an answer at my fingertips with the
| search "{insert search topic} reddit". It's harder, but as
| I get older I find I have a lot more free time than I
| thought I had if I just ignore social media for most of my
| day. Hacker News and my hobby communities are my social
| outlet, because they aren't as bad for my mental health,
| though I have to avoid the more-political topics on HN.
| asdff wrote:
| Eternal september happened. The original crop of users was
| generally pretty good about following reddiquete and not
| downvoting. Today, the average user seems a lot more hostile
| in their replies, more willing to downvote your post in
| disagreement even if it is relevant to the topic, less able
| to see sarcasm or nuance, more willing to die on ideological
| hills.
| yarg wrote:
| The down-voters are the good faith players - people are
| getting permabanned for political disagreements.
| mustacheemperor wrote:
| The community zeitgeist across the board just seems so much
| more argumentative, contrarian, and angry than it was years
| ago. Even on the niche subs. On /r/academicbiblical people
| get banned for spitting nasty stuff at each other in
| comments. The AnalogCommunity subreddit has a frequent
| drumbeat of negativity about new film stocks and is enraged
| about "shilling" if anyone who as much as includes a logo
| on their gear in a post - as if we, the analog film
| community, don't want new companies to succeed in analog
| film? The outrage isn't logical, it's strictly emotional,
| and it seems like people are drawn literally to the
| _emotion of rage,_ not an emotional reaction to anything
| specific and tangible.
|
| It reminds me of trying to find value in YouTube comments
| around 2008 and realizing there's some kind of community-
| wide attitude problem completely destroying any chance of
| it. It's not a discussion forum, it's one of those rooms
| where people pay $20 to smash stuff up with a sledgehammer
| and yell.
| arjonagelhout wrote:
| I tried to find the meaning of eternal summer, but it
| appears to be a movie. I think you mean Eternal September
| [0]
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
| asdff wrote:
| Very true good catch
| tarboreus wrote:
| r/blind is a great community, however.
| akiselev wrote:
| I feel like we need a new XKCD for this situation like the
| "today's lucky 10,000" [1] one.
|
| Congratulations! You're one of today's lucky million! You
| discovered a feature that's useful instead of anti-user just in
| time for a tech company to shut it down in the name of ~~user~~
| shareholder experience!
|
| [1] https://xkcd.com/1053/
| onionisafruit wrote:
| I think this has happened to me a few dozen times on Hacker
| News when I've seen "X is shutting down" where this is the
| first I've heard of X and it seems useful to me.
| Marsymars wrote:
| For me this week, it was Blaseball:
| https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/3/23744507/blaseball-
| shutdow...
| onionisafruit wrote:
| That's one more for me. IDK if I would have actually
| played Blaseball, but it looks pretty fun.
| ulrikrasmussen wrote:
| Since the GP stated they were blind, here's a textual
| description of the comic: https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/in
| dex.php/1053:_Ten_Thousan...
| ok123456 wrote:
| Since this change makes a service less accessible to the
| disabled, is there way to bring injunctive relief under the ADA?
| ncr100 wrote:
| Maybe the Mods could claim they are denied service.
|
| Some references https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36234827
| lxe wrote:
| Reddit is having a Digg v4 moment
| RobotToaster wrote:
| It's infuriating how these massive companies refuse to make their
| apps accessible.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| These subreddit blackouts are so dumb. All it does is reinforce
| that Reddit can do what they want and communities won't go
| anywhere. It's like a teenager running away then showing up for
| dinner. If you want Reddit to get the message migrate your
| community and nuke the subreddit.
| ink_13 wrote:
| The goal here is to negotiate. You don't open a negotiation by
| going scorched earth.
| alephaleph wrote:
| /r/me_irl is doing that, they're going to permanently go
| private if the changes aren't reversed.
| vultour wrote:
| That's one of the most pointless subreddits out there. They
| need to nuke the default ones to have any meaningful effect.
| 58x14 wrote:
| I pretty strongly disagree with this take. I've used Reddit for
| over a decade almost entirely as a "lurker" meaning without an
| account. The majority of what I watched and read has depended
| on that reaching the "front page of the internet."
|
| While I've followed these recent changes since the Pushshift
| shutoff, it's really only been in the past week that I've seen
| this gain "mainstream" attention. The more of these subreddit-
| going-dark announcements reach the page, the more people
| realize this is a widespread issue - even if they don't click,
| read, or even think about what's going on or why, they're
| _aware_ of it.
|
| I've seen several dozen of these posts reach the front page,
| plus a litany of media outlet publications. That legitimately
| matters as an input to financial projections in the context of
| their upcoming IPO, and it matters even more as a signal to
| prospective investors, retail or institutional.
|
| Our modern reality is often served to us via algorithms that
| are trained to optimize for things; the most common thing for
| content platforms to optimize for is engagement, and the most
| common signal for these platforms is the upvote. In over a
| decade I've never seen _any topic_ reach front page across such
| a variety of posts and subreddits, and that is a direct result
| of individuals upvoting these posts.
|
| I think this demonstrates, already, the collective ability to
| mobilize action across communities, even if the action is
| reduced to the simplest Boolean upvote. And that's an
| indication that widespread collective action _can_ be
| coordinated.
| prmoustache wrote:
| The funny and ironic part is seeing people kind of contesting
| decision of a proprietary service, then flee to another
| proprietary service like discord.
|
| Like, will they ever learn?
| pachorizons wrote:
| Ok, what should they do?
| asdff wrote:
| Its really sad more than anything. The modern march of
| technology has been to take what used to be open standard
| technologies used by the average computer user at the time,
| privatise them, wall up the gardens, and lock people in. Now
| you have people beholden to reddit and discord instead of irc
| and a self hosted web forum. It reminds me of those quick
| change oil places: an entire industry with serious real estate
| holdings exists solely because most people have no clue how to
| unscrew three things and pour in oil themselves. Its an example
| of yet another industry with a financial incentive towards
| widespread ignorance.
| deely3 wrote:
| You are currently made a comment using a proprietary service.
|
| Your pc and phone also partly proprietary service.
|
| You make calls, send and receive money by using proprietary
| service.
| fsflover wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy
|
| Sent from my Librem 5, which runs an FSF-endorsed OS.
| johnnyanmac wrote:
| I would indeed say that hoping for a perfect open source
| free (as in freedom) scalable web solution with a bustling
| community is an unrealistic, idealistic alternative. At
| least, as of now.
| fsflover wrote:
| I disagree: Mastodon works quite well and has an amazing
| community:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36185731
| iLoveOncall wrote:
| But he's not contesting the decision made by Reddit as far as
| I can tell?
| Havoc wrote:
| Shout out to reddit execs for spectacular job tanking your rep
| ahead of IPO.
| dom96 wrote:
| I still hope that Reddit will reverse its plans to charge money
| for its API, but with every passing piece of news like this it
| just feels less and less likely.
|
| In the interest of preparing for the worst and offering an
| alternative. I have created https://api.reddiw.com. If you're an
| app developer that is affected by this price increase please
| consider adopting it, feel to reach out to me if you have any
| questions and we can work together.
| rektide wrote:
| Reddit is doing so much injury to the free labor mods. They are
| so massively disproportionately injured by these changes, as
| people who direly need advanced changes. Absolutely wild own
| goal.
| not_a_shill wrote:
| It's not an own goal if the mods will continue to keep doing it
| because that's all they have.
| georgeburdell wrote:
| A lot of mods try to diversify their communities across
| platforms (Discord, Mastodon)
| Clent wrote:
| Keep it in what form?
|
| How little will it take for the communities to spiral?
|
| How would a developer's performance be if you removed their
| tooling? Could they still develop, sure. Will they want to?
| Is there some where for them to move.
|
| If not, how long until the pain forces a thousand clones?
|
| I've been around long enough to see the decline of Reddit.
| Predicted many times but eventually, the bottom will fall out
| and with the sentiment of the world towards big business and
| reddit wanting to IPO. I see this as a place people may make
| a stand. Because what better place than the place itself.
| ruined wrote:
| there is a class of power moderators who are monetizing their
| position, who are dependent on the population of reddit. but
| most topic-focused communities on reddit are only there
| because reddit is the most convenient platform. as soon as
| that is no longer the case, the community will move on, and
| ultimately that is the same population that supplies the
| larger monetizeable subreddits.
| zem wrote:
| as a mod of a few topic focused subreddits, yeah, if they
| ever get rid of old.reddit I'm probably gone. I'll miss the
| communities but not enough to put up with the interface.
| gaoshan wrote:
| I'm a mod (of an insignificant subreddit), have been active for
| 15+ years, 6 figure karma, even had the single most upvoted
| comment on all of reddit one day...they notify you and give you
| an award when that happens in case you wonder.
|
| My feelings about the site have evolved so much over the years
| but in the past couple of years the vibe has been turning
| consistently negative. I'm getting fed up and I imagine a lot
| of others are as well and I can't imagine this will end up
| benefiting Reddit in general.
| pierat wrote:
| Congratulations for working for free for a for-profit
| company?
|
| Might I recommend you to turn towards places like Lemmy or
| other less-commercial and less exploitive websites?
|
| Reddit relies on free work, but doesn't value or help the
| mods. And now, they're doubling down on screwing everyone and
| manufacturing fake content for what appears their IPO.
|
| I think it's time to skedaddle.
| autoexec wrote:
| I think I'm out of the loop... what is this about
| manufacturing fake content?
| EamonnMR wrote:
| Probably referring to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Subr
| edditDrama/comments/13p889x/red...
| morkalork wrote:
| Can't fault them for following a tried and true strategy
| from the same platform:
| https://arstechnica.com/information-
| technology/2012/06/reddi...
| tester457 wrote:
| Lemmy is too slow to take off. And federation is too
| inconvenient for the average user.
| digitallyfree wrote:
| It's not easy to move a group to a new platform, and
| there's very little people using Lemmy currently. The
| thing about Reddit despite its flaws is that it allows
| access to many large communities with a single account.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| You mean "volunteering to keep a community forum polite and
| productive".
|
| I wish people would quit shitting on mods like they're
| idiots for taking out the trash.
|
| Yes, though, the larger subreddits are political and repost
| astroturf. Anti-american garbage. But not every sub is like
| that. I'll look into Lemmy though.
| surgical_fire wrote:
| I was a moderator for a fairly large subreddit (6 figures
| subscribers).
|
| I was a moron doing free work for a for-profit company.
|
| I _deserved_ to be shat on.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| That's fair, but that isn't how I felt.
|
| I was the mod for a city subreddit for a while and while
| it was tiring, it was easy to do (especially with a
| medium sized group, each pitching in a little bit). Keep
| the spam and trolling down, and community engagement up.
| (Then I got banned for calling a spammer on a large
| message board a spammer).
|
| Name an online community space that isn't a for-profit
| company, that more than a few hundred people could name.
|
| Facebook Instagram Nextdoor Meetup Reddit
|
| Whoops.
| surgical_fire wrote:
| > Name an online community space that isn't a for-profit
| company, that more than a few hundred people could name.
|
| I have nothing against for profit companies.
|
| I am vehemently against of donating labor to for-profit
| companies. Especially when they will betray those that
| provided free labor when it becomes convenient.
|
| Reddit proved me right.
| BaseballPhysics wrote:
| > You mean "volunteering to keep a community forum polite
| and productive".
|
| Both of those things can be true.
|
| The reality is those communities--which only thrive on
| Reddit because of effective moderation--are built on a
| private platform whose primary method of generating
| profits is to monetize the attention of those community
| members.
|
| So, yes, those mods are absolutely contributing free
| labour that Reddit is turning into private profits, and
| that labour comes in the form of volunteering to keep
| those forums polite and productive. Whether or not that's
| a reasonable tradeoff is up to each individual, though I
| have to confess I don't personally understand it
| (despite, in the past, benefiting from it). At least my
| day job pays me for the labour that they monetize.
|
| And now Reddit is taking a dump all over those free
| labourers by taking away critical tools that they use to
| make those forums polite and productive in the first
| place.
| pierat wrote:
| Thank you.
|
| That's why I recommended putting "volunteering time" with
| actual non-profit orgs and groups, so that 100% of the
| labor goes to all. I didn't advocate "quit volunteering
| for a community", cause that's the wrong thing to
| advocate.
|
| There's mastodon, Lemmy for 2. Discord isn't great, given
| earlier in the curve of monetization. Same for other for-
| profit areas. But again, I'd recommend finding
| communities in a not-profit-driven area and work there.
|
| The for-profit side of things has the same death spirals.
| I'm just sick of this "web2" crap profiteering and
| killing useful community stuff.
| bmacho wrote:
| > Congratulations for working for free for a for-profit
| company?
|
| They work for themselves, and use reddit resources free. If
| anything, this relationship is beneficial for the
| community, but reddit.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > in the past couple of years the vibe has been turning
| consistently negative
|
| As a regular user, I gave up on reddit a couple of years ago
| because of exactly this problem.
| postalrat wrote:
| I deleted my 15 year old account this week and don't miss it.
| My hn account is next but isn't that old. Why make it easy
| for the world to track you?
| treis wrote:
| Mods are as much of a problem as they are a help. They rule
| subreddits like gods and (lots) abuse the shadow ban/delete
| system to silence opinions they don't like. Lots of others sell
| out to various influencers/advertisers and help promote
| whatever they want.
| Seattle3503 wrote:
| Mods cannot shadowban users. Only admins can do that.
| ink_13 wrote:
| Enh, sort of. You can write an Automod rule to always
| remove content from one or more specific users.
| surgical_fire wrote:
| As someone who moderated a couple of communities in the past...
| Good.
| timf wrote:
| Related:
|
| _Reddit is creating an exemption to its unpopular new API
| pricing terms for makers of accessibility apps, which could come
| as a big relief for some developers worried about how to afford
| the potentially expensive fees and the users that rely on the
| apps to browse Reddit. As long as those apps are noncommercial
| and "address accessibility needs," they won't have to pay to
| access Reddit's data._
|
| _"We've connected with select developers of non-commercial apps
| that address accessibility needs and offered them exemptions from
| our large-scale pricing terms," Reddit spokesperson Tim
| Rathschmidt says in a statement to The Verge._
|
| From https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/7/23752804/reddit-exempt-
| acc...
| digging wrote:
| So if reddit's official app is difficult to use, at what point
| can regular 3rd party apps claim to be accessibility tools?
| cwkoss wrote:
| Society needs 'allergic to UX dark patterns' to be included
| in the next DSM
| nerpderp82 wrote:
| There needs to be a preferences setting sent in the HTTP
| header to activate high contrast and low motion modes. Just
| having "dark mode" is not enough.
| chaosharmonic wrote:
| Would high contrast not be a CSS thing? I know `prefers-
| reduced-motion` is...
| notatoad wrote:
| yes, high-contrast is a CSS media query just like
| prefers-reduced-motion is
| digging wrote:
| I agree, but I think you misread the comment you're
| replying to. They were referring to "dark patterns," a
| design feature used to trick users into taking actions
| they otherwise wouldn't. Much harder to flag :P
| nerpderp82 wrote:
| Sorry, I want all dark patterns to be surrounded by a
| high contrast "dark pattern border".
| digging wrote:
| this is what the internet was meant to be
| MrStonedOne wrote:
| Some of those UX dark patterns would qualify as making the
| site inaccessible to people with add and adhd, others make
| it inaccessible to people with autism.
|
| engagement driving bullshit could very easy become banned
| under ADA if the right public servant gave it enough
| thought.
| hoherd wrote:
| It sounds like being accessibility tools wouldn't be enough
| because they would also need to be non-commercial, which
| excludes most of (all of?) the popular third party apps.
| goda90 wrote:
| RedReader is entirely open source and has accessibility
| features.
| thorum wrote:
| Separate "accessibility" apps for people with disabilities
| always lag behind in features compared to apps that target a
| wider audience while still being accessible. Basically
| relegating people with disabilities to a second class
| experience.
| jacobsenscott wrote:
| Translation - if we can exploit your free labor we'll allow it.
| Otherwise get bent.
| kmeisthax wrote:
| >noncommercial
|
| This is a water sandwich.
|
| There is no unambiguous single definition of commercial
| activity in the law: some parts of the law define it one way,
| some jurisdictions differ as to what is and isn't commercial,
| and some parts of the law explicitly deny the existence of
| noncommercial activity (e.g. copyright law). So Reddit has
| promised _literally nothing_ here.
|
| Furthermore, their explicit goal is to prevent scraping by ML
| training companies. This is inherently opposed to
| accessibility. If you add accessibility to copy protection, you
| weaken the copy protection[0]. So Reddit can either tell blind
| people to go fuck themselves, or they can accept that there's
| always going to be at least some backdoor for AI to scrape
| Reddit.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Elcom_Ltd.
| ncr100 wrote:
| .. And how can a developer not charge for their specialty-
| app?
|
| Reddit is requiring Disabled to use an app developed at the
| LOWEST COST - this is clear discrimination, in the legal
| sense.
|
| It may not be illegal, but legally they are "discriminating",
| based upon the legal usage of that word.
| no_butterscotch wrote:
| Yup.
|
| Whatever blind dev is making a living providing an app (or
| other software) as an accessibility layer for the blind over
| reddit will now have to potentially do so for free.
| mustacheemperor wrote:
| On the other hand, quoth the OP thread
|
| >One of our moderators, u/itsthejoker, has had multiple hour-
| long calls with various Reddit employees. However, as of the
| current time, our concerns have gone unheard, and Reddit
| remains firm.
|
| Doublespeak from reddit's management is not exactly uncommon,
| and it seems like something is mismatched between what they
| communicated in that article and what's related in the thread.
| tedivm wrote:
| The AskHistorian's mods put together a small list of reddit
| admin promises to moderators that were broken:
|
| Admins have promised minimal disruption; however, over the
| years they've made a number of promises to support moderators
| that they did not, or could not follow up on, and at times
| even reneged on: In 2015, in response to
| widespread protests on the sub, the admins promised they
| would build tools and improve communication with mods.
| In 2019 the admins promised that chat would always be an opt-
| in feature. However, a year later an unmoderated chat feature
| was made a default feature on most subs In
| 2020, in response to moderators protesting racism on Reddit,
| admin promised to support mods in combating hate
| In 2021, again, in response to protests, Reddit's admin
| promised a feature to report malicious interference by
| subreddits promoting Covid denial.
| dopa42365 wrote:
| /r/blind going dark?
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| One of the comments:
|
| _Yes, modding is where the biggest problems are. When
| moderating, most of the buttons are unlabeled. It would be quite
| easy to delete a comment when I meant to lock a thread or
| whatever, if I forget the exact order I 've memorized for the
| buttons. And adding stuff to sidebars or changing the layout of
| the sub isn't really possible at all. There are also a lot of
| dialogues, alerts, etc, that pop up without getting focus.
| There's also a lack of headings, landmarks, or other mark-up in
| modmail, making it slow and difficult to use. This stuff really
| matters when you're helping mod a sub with thousands of users. If
| all you're doing is reading, and leaving the occasional comment,
| it's...fine. Not good, but fine._
|
| ----
|
| It's important for a sub for disabled individuals to have mods
| with that disability.
|
| I didn't care about this protest and haven't much followed
| articles and such about it, but this feels like a kick in the
| gut. People with disabilities can have their lives substantially
| enhanced by the internet, _if_ accessibility isn 't a bar to them
| connecting with people, finding info they need, taking actions
| online (like bill paying), etc.
|
| I hope this gets satisfactorily resolved for blind users of
| Reddit. Ugh.
| axegon_ wrote:
| It is worth pointing out that even with a 10/10 sight,
| moderating reddit is a nightmare. If it wasn't for the mod
| toolbox plugin, I would have probably resorted to making CLI
| tools instead(many of which I have since reddit offers an
| extremely limited options for moderating, nuking comments,
| threads and so on). That said, this is absolutely nothing
| compared to the unholy mess that is moderating from
| android/ios. Most moderators plainly refuse to do it. I
| moderate a big sub and what we do is we have a discord chat and
| whenever something needs to be taken care of fast and someone
| notices it on mobile, they simply alert everyone on discord so
| someone near a computer can handle it.
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| I agree that their mod access on mobile leaves a lot to be
| desired and will add that for some people, use of a mobile
| device _is_ for accessibility reasons.
| mrj wrote:
| It's especially shameful that a large company like Reddit can't
| manage to.. do HTML right? It really doesn't take that much
| extra time to do the basics. They need buttons with _labels_.
|
| How did they not get sued already? Was it just because users
| had access to 3rd party apps?
| miki123211 wrote:
| Because (to oversimplify things by a lot) you don't have to
| care in most cases. You have legal requirements as a public
| institution, when selling to governments / educational
| institutions or as an employer (depending on country), but
| requiring all privately-run, commercial websites to be
| accessible is usually not a thing. This is not legal advice
| by any means, and the actual situation is way more
| complicated than that.
| jjoonathan wrote:
| Modern design philosophy is that buttons with labels are
| messy and complicated so they should be replaced everywhere
| by hamburgers and hieroglyphs.
|
| What started as spatial triage on mobile is now the universal
| design language everywhere, and it sucks.
| edflsafoiewq wrote:
| Regardless, there's still aria-label.
| alephaleph wrote:
| I think they're referring to aria-labels, not visible text.
| 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
| As a non-web-dev who sometimes builds my own toys, when you
| say someone building buttons without labels is lawsuit-
| worthy, it makes me think you're all saying something other
| than what I'm interpreting. I'm guessing you mean more than
| <button type="button">My Label</button>
|
| or something like that?
| denimnerd42 wrote:
| sounds like they will be sued now! ADA trolling is a thing
| and it does catch big fish.
| barkingcat wrote:
| if you look at the regular reddit "new" interface you'll
| totally understand how this occurs.
|
| the interface is a mess, accessibility concerns or not. It's
| truly an equal opportunity offender in all the worst case.
| phpisthebest wrote:
| Having a site good for accessibility means it is also easily
| scraped, if it is easily scraped no need to pay for API
| access, and there goes the money grab
|
| It is not they cant do it right, they do want to do it right
| because they need to monetize the site to appease the VC's,
|
| Anything that can prevent that, including accessibility, goes
| nitwit005 wrote:
| A custom program can find the buttons by label. It's just
| not labeled in a way the screenreader is looking for.
| [deleted]
| geraldwhen wrote:
| Product owners don't care about accessibility. They care
| about time to market for 99.999% of your users, or for many
| products 100% of the users. The products I build are not
| accessible. Designers work hard to ensure they're not or
| quite hard to make accessible at best. Modals on modals on
| modals with important content changing all over the place!
| User23 wrote:
| Fortunately the ADA[1] means that you can easily reach
| their real customer support AKA legal department.
|
| [1] https://www.boia.org/blog/the-robles-v.-dominos-
| settlement-a...
| m4rtink wrote:
| Wasnt there some push in the US to make websites acessible
| or face some very hight fines ? I do remember something
| like that.
| lesuorac wrote:
| It matters a lot when you have a Gov. contract of some
| sort.
|
| Reddit doesn't sell to the USG or any US schools or etc.
| kshahkshah wrote:
| Is it on a "product owner" to care about accessibility? Or
| engineers to build things properly? If this was any other
| engineering field - civil, mechanical, electrical, there
| would be standards which we seem to lack / fail to enforce
| hiatus wrote:
| > there would be standards which we seem to lack / fail
| to enforce
|
| This is by design. Software developers are hardly
| "engineers". They build what the business wants, quickly,
| and worry about the "properly" after product-market fit
| is found (or so they're told). This dynamic would be
| upended if software engineering were licensed.
| geraldwhen wrote:
| I can't even convince design not to make the text grey on
| grey. It's not just "disabled" users who are suffering
| this nonsense.
|
| I get paid the same not to fight. More even, because I'm
| a team player.
| willcipriano wrote:
| If the product owner directs work at a ticket level and
| never assigns it to anyone, it's their fault it isn't
| there. If the engineers have more autonomy than I've seen
| at a company are were able to decide what to work on,
| then sure blame the engineers.
| OfSanguineFire wrote:
| "It's important for a sub for disabled individuals to have mods
| with that disability."
|
| Reddit is notorious for having mods on various special-
| demographic subreddits where members of that demographic would
| not necessarily recognize the mod as a fellow member. The cloak
| of anonymity means, however, that few get any inkling unless
| they bother to investigate (unlikely on a website and an app
| that invite passivity) or it eventually erupts into scandal.
| dingledork69 wrote:
| For example the /r/Netherlands subreddit is ran by trolls who
| are not from the Netherlands, and does not allow the usage of
| the Dutch language in the subreddit at all. Instead
| /r/theNetherlands is the proper subreddit.
|
| The fact that reddit allows moderators to hide the modlist
| nowadays only makes things worse. You have absolutely no idea
| who is running things anymore.
| jhatemyjob wrote:
| These protests are pointless. Let reddit kill itself. It had its
| time.
| bagels wrote:
| They directly cut into ad revenue. It won't change Reddit's
| mind, but is noticed.
| asdff wrote:
| I think they might actually help kill reddit faster. A lot of
| people have joked already that these protests will finally be
| the kick to get them to quit wasting time on the site. I'd bet
| that numbers do drop a lot after the protests and at least a
| few users end up leaving for good.
| Dudester230602 wrote:
| Going freemium did not kill mobile app stores and going woke
| did not kill Hollywood/streaming. So don't raise your hopes.
| Sometimes bad side just wins.
| [deleted]
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-06-07 23:00 UTC)