[HN Gopher] The history and role of fashion in the software indu...
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The history and role of fashion in the software industry
Author : ingve
Score : 56 points
Date : 2023-06-05 06:42 UTC (1 days ago)
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| uKVZe85V wrote:
| From the title I thought it was about tools/frameworks/language
| fashion. Not clothes fashion. ;-)
| acabal wrote:
| Just because suits are going out of fashion, doesn't mean there
| isn't a dress code anymore. A programmer at a typical startup has
| a dress code that's just as strict as a suit and tie ever was -
| except that now it's unspoken.
|
| In other words, try showing up to your job as a programmer at
| your typical west coast startup _wearing_ a fine suit and tie,
| just because you like the look. (Like I do!) I think you 'll
| quickly find that the de facto dress code is, in fact, old jeans
| plus graphic t-shirt/hoodie, or flat-front chinos plus gingham
| shirt, and that your coworkers are going to sneer at you for your
| choice to buck this unspoken dress code.
|
| Wearing a suit and tie for pleasure to your basic programming job
| might even limit your career, because it might signal to your
| coworkers and bosses that you're not a team player. So much for
| no more dress codes!
|
| Fashions don't deserve to last forever - suits and ties are
| inevitably fading away even as we might hand-wring about the
| continuing destruction of fine dress in American society. But to
| suggest that dress codes are disappearing is not correct. Dress
| codes are as alive as they ever were, now they're just unspoken.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Not west coast by an ocean, but in my experience there's no
| specific dress code as you try to cast it, instead there's a
| dismissal of suits in particular.
|
| You can dress up in Goth fashion and play it Cyberpunk if you
| want, people will whole fully accept it. And it's also not
| unspoken at all, startup culture is straight pitched as
| disrupting traditional business, which makes suits a faux pas.
|
| I'd compare it to wearing a Jonny Walker cosplay at a Anonymous
| Alcoholics meeting. It's not the dress code, it's what you're
| trying to convey.
| notacoward wrote:
| > a typical startup has a dress code that's just as strict as a
| suit and tie ever was - except that now it's unspoken
|
| Kind of like the idea of "leaderless" or "structureless"
| groups, in which the leadership hierarchy practically always
| ends up being obscured but no less real. Here's a really good
| _old_ essay about this phenomenon in early feminism.
|
| https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm
|
| IMX the "Silicon Valley uniform" doesn't really have anything
| to do with being more casual or relaxed. It's just another kind
| of conformity, comforting for those who do like to conform and
| stressful for those who don't or can't.
| paulddraper wrote:
| Try an untucked long-sleeve shirt and nice jeans.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| I had no idea Steve Jobs wanted Issey Miyake to make an Apple
| uniform. That would have been sick. Pleats for everyone!
| comfypotato wrote:
| It happened and was rejected by employees. The black turtleneck
| and, if I remember correctly, jeans.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| I don't blame them. I hate it when even a collared shirt
| brushes up against my neck. I tried a turtleneck as a kid,
| and it felt suffocating.
| reaperman wrote:
| OTOH turtlenecks being ubiquitous would make it super
| convenient to hide evidence of debaucherous weekend
| activities.
| Jun8 wrote:
| Oh boy oh boy oh boy, this brings back sweet & sour memories:
| about 10 years I had this idea of a web site for
| programmer/hacker types, even bought hackerstyle.com. It would
| have suggestions that you could select and also would include an
| "outfit compiler" that would process your selections to check for
| matching colors, fashion sense, etc. I got _super_ hyped about
| this, and evidently had enough of a reality distortion field to
| convince a colleague to apply to YC with the idea.
|
| You guessed it: we couldn't even make it to the interview round,
| she moved to CA and is now a successful director at Instacart,
| and I'm here reminiscing on a late lunch break.
|
| Should have hold on to that domain, though, just checked and it's
| for sale for $3000+.
| dotcoma wrote:
| "The computer industry is the only industry that is more fashion-
| driven than women's fashion" -- Larry Ellison
| enw wrote:
| I low-key like some dress codes, as it gives me an incentive to
| dress well without looking like a dork, and that I can brush off
| as "oh it's just the company rules".
| jollyllama wrote:
| The demise of the suit is yet another contributing factor to the
| perpetual infantilization of the millenial.
| williamdclt wrote:
| I see it the other way around. Newer generation aren't being
| imposed a codified uniform by older generations anymore and
| have a lot more freedom to express themselves through clothing,
| I think it's much less infantilising actually
| EatingWithForks wrote:
| I actually don't know if suits going out of fashion should be
| considered infantilization of one specific generation in
| particular; suits have been simplified progressively for
| decades before that. At _some point_ the simplest suit fir
| casual everyday wear will be no suit.
| abraae wrote:
| When I worked as a mainframe engineer at IBM last century, the
| dress code was strictly suit and tie, and I carried my tools in a
| toolcase disguised as a briefcase.
|
| It was quite the nightmare climbing inside a 3890 check sorter
| with suit and tie on. The machines were literally puiled high
| with oily paper dust due to the millions of checks that fired
| through them continuously and you aways emerged filthy and dusty.
| I constantly fielded questions from the computer operators as to
| why I had to wear a monkey suit when I was obviously more of a
| mechanic (sidenote: I married one so perhaps the suit had some
| sartorial impact after all).
|
| At that time there was apparently only one IBM office in the
| world where the dress code was relaxed which was Darwin Australia
| due to the extreme heat. The dress code there was dress shorts
| and long socks, something like a safari suit.
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| Some people actually like uniforms. They don't like having to
| think about what to wear. Or people with sensory issues like
| wearing the same thing over and over and a uniform allows that
| without people acting like you're weird.
|
| I wonder if any company has ever issued a uniform, said you _can_
| just wear this, but made it _optional_.
| nluken wrote:
| Minimalism is always in. Even in high fashion, Issey Miyake,
| whose association with Steve Jobs is called out in the article,
| remains beloved beyond his death.
|
| Perhaps it's not explicitly a uniform _per se_ , but you could
| build a fashionable psuedo-uniform out of only a few garments
| relatively cheaply and without getting looks like you
| mentioned. That kind of fashion isn't for everyone, but neither
| is the color and fit maximalism that seem to dominate today's
| outfits.
| diablerouge wrote:
| I made a uniform of my own - same set of black tshirts, black
| jeans, one or two slightly different pairs of shoes.
|
| It was great for a bit! I felt more well dressed, I was
| always comfortable, and it was incredibly functional.
|
| Now I realize I like fun clothes too much to stick to the
| uniform always. But it's nice to have it around to fall back
| on.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| I see/hear more and more people build an uniform of their own.
| Basically the same kind of tops and identical bottoms bought in
| set and renewed identical as they wear out. I'm half in that
| camp, and it's damn convenient.
| Solvency wrote:
| Sweatpants and a tshirt require zero brainspace to wear.
| bitwize wrote:
| No mention of programming socks? They're really going to praise
| the shabby clothing of toxically masculine 1970s-1990s programmer
| culture (when all the women were driven out of programming by
| gross guys) and not even mention today's LGBTQ-driven programming
| culture and its fashion?
| bawolff wrote:
| Are programming socks actually a popular fashion in progrmming?
| I'm not sure i have ever seen anyone wear them in real life.
|
| Edit: i didn't realize this was a term for anime-ish knee high
| socks. Regardless i think my point still stands.
| bamfly wrote:
| This is the first time I've encountered the term. Had to
| search to find out WTF it means. Seems like it's mostly a
| joke?
| bawolff wrote:
| I just googled based on your comment. I assumed this was
| just socks with programming jokes written on them, but
| appearently it is actually a term for knee-high socks
| https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/programming-socks
|
| I certainly hadn't heard of this either.
| RandallBrown wrote:
| I've never heard of this either and thought they were
| referring to a trend from 10 years ago with wearing
| brightly colored socks.
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/fashion/in-silicon-
| valley...
| solarmist wrote:
| Nope, not to my knowledge. It's just a meme.
| cuttysnark wrote:
| The only popular fashion (if you can even call it that) I've
| ever observed with any consistency is "hoodie" and "graphic
| tee". More rare, but worth noting, is shorts-when-its-pants-
| weather. The lack of dress-code just translated into whatever
| a person would be wearing if they had stayed at home.
|
| I wouldn't notice a person's socks unless they asked me to.
| jjgreen wrote:
| Perma-shorts were definitely a thing for sysadmins back in
| the day, devops kind-of killed them off ...
| bamfly wrote:
| Fashion leather "work boots" or jump boots (e.g. Red Wing,
| Danner). Oddball, usually lightweight, sneakers. Selvedge
| jeans with the cuff roll (maybe hipster, maybe _tech_
| hipster--need context and other clothing cues to tell the
| difference). Expensive hiking & bouldering/rock-climbing
| brands, for shoes, boots, pants, and jackets, especially
| (meanwhile, normal fans of hiking who aren't doing a _lot_
| of very long hikes just wear shit from Costco). Merino wool
| _everything_. $100+ hoodies.
| switchbak wrote:
| So programming culture was uniformly toxic during that 30 year
| period, and also those men are "gross"?
|
| It's hard to see how this is anything but a low effort troll.
| burnished wrote:
| That does seem to be the consensus of the people who were
| there for it, yes.
| [deleted]
| fluoridation wrote:
| Is it "toxically masculine" to dress however one likes?
| burnished wrote:
| No, of course not, toxic masculinity refers to a set of
| beliefs about masculinity that hurt men (and everyone around
| them).
| escapedmoose wrote:
| It seems they were describing the culture, not the clothing,
| as "toxically masculine."
| fluoridation wrote:
| I would say they were describing the _people_. I didn 't
| realize you can't dress in comfortable clothing you like
| without making some kind of statement about gender roles or
| whatever.
| bamfly wrote:
| I don't mind the impending death of the suit, but I hope it
| doesn't get _too_ weird to wear blazers and sport coats in
| informal settings, in my lifetime. They 're so very nice. Wish
| I'd started wearing them years ago. Like a hoodie, but looks way
| better and has a ton more pockets. I'd hate to see that go the
| way of nice-looking hats (you can't wear those anymore unless
| you're 80 years old or _want_ to look like a douchebag--your only
| option if you 're not in one of those categories is bad-looking
| hats, which is unfortunate)
|
| That and loafers. I'd been slipping on my (tied) sneakers for
| years, while all that time I could have had a shoe _designed_ for
| that and that looks way nicer and lasts far longer! In America,
| you can dress those all the way up to business formal and down to
| going-to-the-grocery-store! So versatile. What a fool I was.
|
| Incidentally, we in (at least certain segments of) this industry
| definitely have _a look_. I 've got a pretty good record of
| spotting tech workers in non-tech-heavy areas and settings based
| solely on clothes & affect taken in from a distance, and I don't
| just mean when one's wearing legible clothing with some tech
| slogans or logos on them.
| majormajor wrote:
| Agree with you that there's a nice medium level of "nice
| clothes" that look more formal and are more generally
| comfortable (though things like "jeans, but made from
| synthetics so they stretch and move more lightly" and such are
| making inroads in the comfort department).
|
| > Incidentally, we in (at least certain segments of) this
| industry definitely have a look. I've got a pretty good record
| of spotting tech workers in non-tech-heavy areas and settings
| based solely on clothes & affect taken in from a distance, and
| I don't just mean when one's wearing legible clothing with some
| tech slogans or logos on them.
|
| IMO, for men, there's a handful of main looks, and they're all
| pretty different for each other. "Nerd", "scruffy hacker",
| "fitness bro" are the ones I see most frequently.
| bamfly wrote:
| > IMO, for men, there's a handful of main looks, and they're
| all pretty different for each other. "Nerd", "scruffy
| hacker", "fitness bro" are the ones I see most frequently.
|
| Oh, for sure, some are easy-mode, though. Conference T and
| cargo shorts with sandals (possibly including white socks).
| Rumpled, slouchy shirt and pants outfit parts of which surely
| date back to a goth phase, but softened by the rest of the
| ensemble (how do you tell the difference between that and
| rural-town convenience store clerk? Some combo of age, other
| grooming, and various details--more feel than science). That
| kind of thing.
|
| Ivy-league/MIT 2-year-veteran FAANG is a look, but about half
| that's body language rather than clothes.
| patrickmay wrote:
| I absolutely agree with you about blazers and sport coats. The
| more pockets the better.
| escapedmoose wrote:
| As a tech person who doesn't fit "the look," I hate that it's
| become such a cultural signal. It's rarely fun watching people
| react with surprise (doubt) when you tell them your occupation
| (if they give you the opportunity to chime in at all). :(
|
| My fellow nerds, I would appreciate some more wardrobe
| diversity.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| People doubt you're a SWE because of the way you dress? I
| think I would find that amusing.
|
| I'm also curious what your look/style is such that people
| don't believe you when you tell them your occupation.
| escapedmoose wrote:
| I like to wear lots of colors, funky jewelry and patterns,
| bright pink lipstick. Friends have compared the look to Ms.
| Frizzle (the original). Combined with a generally chipper
| personality, it's often not well-received by fellow
| engineers. I usually get along great with the business and
| PMO though haha
| tamiral wrote:
| a big issue for me in tech was wearing suits... went from
| banking to retail sector where in banking it was a must to wear
| suits daily... to retail where you'd dress for your day.
| Nothing beats the feeling of a well tailored suit on a
| beautiful day and the comfort of it.
| H1Supreme wrote:
| Totally agree! When I was still in an office I'd wear a sports
| jacket and nice leather shoes almost every day. Even if some of
| my colleagues wore sweat pants.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| Very much depends what you mean by "too weird".
|
| I'd argue for most people <30 even wearing a button up shirt is
| a little 'weird' in an informal setting, so from my perspective
| blazers/sports coats in informal settings are _already_ 'too
| weird'.
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| The further we get away from medieval shit like buttons and
| ties, the better. It's absurd to have ritual attire in an
| enlightened society, imo, and for it to be so anachronistic
| (and gendered) adds to the absurdity. Congresswomen get to
| wear these colorful and streamlined Star Trek getups, but all
| the men have to be in suits and ties. Nice.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| Most men don't have to wear suits and ties so I feel like
| we've already got away from it.
|
| I also feel like outside of formal settings men have a lot
| more options for dress than people seem to think, they're
| just a bit more subtle.
| flangola7 wrote:
| I'm so glad Senator Fetterman is breaking the suit and tie
| status quo.
| acabal wrote:
| I think it's important to leave room for beauty and
| aesthetics in men's dress, but that doesn't necessarily
| need to mean a suit and tie. Only very recently in history
| - say since around 1980 - has society decided that men's
| dress must be purely comfort-oriented and functional, with
| little or no thought given to shape, ornament, or aesthetic
| beauty.
|
| I think that's a big loss, because beauty is an important
| part of the human spirit, and clothing is something we all
| have to wear every day, even if only for protection from
| the elements. A world where clothes are purely functional
| is a world where we're all dressed like Roman peasants.
|
| Beauty in men's dress has always been a part of culture
| until very recently. Sure, not everyone could afford to
| dress beautifully, but the aspiration for men was there. We
| seem to have lost that aspiration of late, and I think
| that's kinda sad. I would call the state of men's dress
| aspirations today a lot of things, but "aesthetically
| compelling" is not one of them.
| burnished wrote:
| I think the button down should escape your ire - not
| gendered, the choice in which buttons to button can
| completely change the tone, more styling options expressed
| through sleeves and degree of tucking of the shirt.
|
| I do find your statement
|
| >Congresswomen get to wear these colorful and streamlined
| Star Trek getups, but all the men have to be in suits and
| ties
|
| incredibly compelling however, your critique of the suit
| and the expected range of formal mens wear has struck a
| chord with me.
| [deleted]
| xwdv wrote:
| It's already getting weird. If you're not going to some kind of
| party and the weather doesn't support a blazer or sport coat,
| there's no reason to be wearing it. If you're wearing a blazer
| to do groceries, you look weird. As weird as a guy wearing a
| suit doing groceries, or a guy wearing a fedora anywhere.
| williamdclt wrote:
| I'm suspecting you're projecting your own culture. In my part
| of Europe, I wouldn't have a second glance at somebody doing
| groceries in a blazer, and I probably wouldn't even have any
| conscious thought about a guy in a sport coat at a party.
| burnished wrote:
| Yep, you gotta just choose to own it. It can be kind of fun
| to stand out in a benign sort of way anyway.
| dgunay wrote:
| Boat shoes are a good casual alternative to loafers, I wear
| mine practically any time I'm out of the house for less than an
| hour.
| bamfly wrote:
| The more general shoe for that is the "camp moccasin", or
| "camp moc". Similar, but tends to have a _tad_ less secure
| fit, and the sole 's usually a little lighter (not specially
| designed to grip well on a wet wooden deck like a boat shoe--
| the name "boat shoe" isn't arbitrary). They're also a little
| sleeker-looking--typically one lace-hole rather than two as
| most boat shoes have, and I don't know my shoe-part
| terminology very well, but they usually lack the extra flaps
| over the top piece of leather where boat shoes put their lace
| holes, instead putting theirs directly in the main, top part
| of leather on the shoe. That _also_ serves to make them a
| little lighter, in addition to the sole.
|
| I'd recommend that style to someone who's only getting one of
| the two types. Some folks also notice the difference and will
| regard wearing boat shoes away from water, and _especially_
| wearing them with socks, as _gauche_ , while camp mocs may
| "properly" be worn in almost any causal setting, with or
| without socks. Which, on the one hand, who gives a shit, but
| on the other, if you don't want the shoes _for nautical
| purposes_ , no harm in getting the style that's a bit lighter
| & simpler-looking and won't draw ill judgement from anyone,
| socks or no socks, ocean-breeze or mountain cabin.
| photochemsyn wrote:
| > "The foppish habits of Kadrish are an old story often repeated.
| The wise animal blends into its surroundings." - Leto II,
| Children of Dune
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