[HN Gopher] Apple's Vision Pro headset deserves to be ridiculed
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Apple's Vision Pro headset deserves to be ridiculed
Author : cdme
Score : 68 points
Date : 2023-06-05 22:06 UTC (58 minutes ago)
(HTM) web link (www.disconnect.blog)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.disconnect.blog)
| antiterra wrote:
| As someone whose entire social world opened up because of the
| internet, I find the overall attitude of the author to be highly
| questionable. It's one thing to be wary of being forced to
| isolate or avoid contact, but it's another thing entirely to
| suggest that solitude at work definitively equals an overarching
| loneliness.
| yellow_postit wrote:
| Just felt an overwhelming sense of isolation and loneliness in so
| many of their demos. The ones of parents wearing the helmet while
| interacting with children just were straight up depressing to me
| as a parent.
|
| I'm all for spatial cameras in the phone and having better ways
| to view them later but this "future" looks lonely.
| tiedieconderoga wrote:
| It does feel like they're well into the uncanny valley. We'll
| see how they fare against the ineffable "ick" factor.
|
| Google Glass cost half as much and was in a much tighter form
| factor, but it failed because the general public perceived it
| as creepy and isolating.
|
| If this product gets associated with people striving to wall
| themselves off from the world in their own personal
| dreamscape...well, I don't know. Maybe that sort of personality
| type will become a virtue in the zeitgeist. Maybe it already
| is.
| mattgreenrocks wrote:
| I was neutral on it until I was told that I could "remember" a
| special moment by detaching from reality.
|
| Total bullshit. We're at total tech: a point where tech is so
| pervasive we think making it the point of things (rather than
| an enabler) is perfectly fine. Witness the scores of people
| grasping at likes, awkwardly binging social media in public,
| putting giant screens in cars, etc etc.
| npunt wrote:
| 3d photos should have been an iPhone feature for sure, it felt
| really out of place on Vision. Generally using this in a
| physical social context doesn't make a lot of sense except in a
| workplace with others wearing them and working on specific
| tasks together.
|
| However, this is probably the best device ever made for remote
| work and I think can make it far _less_ lonely, with an
| immersive shared environment, 3d avatars that have real facial
| expressions and visibility of hands, etc. I 'd so so much
| rather use this than sit at a monitor on Zoom.
| n42 wrote:
| I agree. I think the work they put into the eyes feature is
| evidence of their concern about this issue. I'm really curious
| to know what the "feeling" is like to be in a room with someone
| wearing one of these.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > I'm really curious to know what the "feeling" is like to be
| in a room with someone wearing one of these.
|
| Me too. I'm predicting "creeped out".
| hn92726819 wrote:
| Honestly probably better than being in a room full of people
| with their camera off. It is painful to pay attention in
| meetings like that
| robertoandred wrote:
| No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame.
| 1270018080 wrote:
| Every blogger needs to fire off their hot takes today to maximize
| clicks.
| davidy123 wrote:
| Strapping one of these on your face is undeniably quite nasty,
| and the video eyes just kind of make it creepier. And their shiny
| reps going on about how everyone can participate, meanwhile it's
| Apple only is really the icing.
|
| I think though that the dream is for it to get smaller and more
| human adapted until you get all the benefits, with normalized
| cues that make it more social, perhaps more social than the now-
| ubiqitious smartphone and headphones. But that is a long ways
| away.
|
| The other thing that I think is not emphasized enough is that
| this headset is really a two way interface for personal AI, where
| it could be very compelling. Apple prefers to sell it as an
| entertainment/work device, but with all those sensors and
| upcoming multi mode AIs, it would be a whole new category. I
| think Apple realizes others have taken the "AI" flame, but they
| know it's important, so instead for now emphasize machine
| learning, but this will eventually become more like the interface
| for AI assisted imagineering and self guided entertainment.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| This post has big "No wireless, less space than a nomad, lame"
| energy. Right off the bat, the whole "don't sit too close to the
| TV or your eyes will fall out" concerns seem a bit ignorant.
| AFAIK every VR headset uses lenses so that your eye focuses as if
| it were looking at something much further away (Oculus headsets
| are 1.3-2 meters). Unless there's evidence that Apple screwed
| this up, seems like a moot point.
|
| Full disclosure- based on the typos and unnecessary FUD in the
| first section of the article, I didn't bother to read the whole
| thing.
| mjamesaustin wrote:
| I find it amusing that the first headset with a very thoughtful
| approach to trying to maintain connection to other people is
| faced with even more forceful condemnation of its isolating
| effects.
|
| Apple developed and invested significantly in a system to make
| interaction possible and (relatively) natural between users of
| the headset and others in their environment. I applaud that first
| step towards an AR future that doesn't isolate us from others.
| JohnFen wrote:
| It seems like an incredibly isolating device, even if a bit
| less isolating than the others.
| turtletontine wrote:
| I think that's exactly the problem, the "relatively" natural is
| still pretty darn awkward and freaky. With gaming VR, you're
| not expected to be interacting with people who are co-present
| at the same time, it makes sense to spend an hour or two in
| this space having some fun.
|
| With this, the intent is clearly to have you wear it all the
| time and let it be your entire interface to the world. And
| that, Apple trying to insert itself into regular human face-to-
| face interaction where technology is completely unnecessary, is
| what's off putting about this.
| te_chris wrote:
| Because it's reshaping your current purely analog relationships
| to people by inserting a massive corporation between you and
| them.
| bentcorner wrote:
| I think it's commendable they tried but at the same time I'm
| going to be 100% annoyed conversing with someone who has one of
| these things on pointed at me while I'm trying to talk to them.
| Call me old fashioned but if these things ever catch on
| mainstream it's going to take me a while to adjust.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > I'm going to be 100% annoyed conversing with someone who
| has one of these things on
|
| I suspect that I won't be willing to interact with them.
| andrewstuart wrote:
| I would have called it innovation.
|
| Computing does tend to be about looking at screens.
|
| And companies do tend to be about profit.
| whynaut wrote:
| Author should've read up on the tech first.
| major505 wrote:
| I dont think the idea is ridicule for things like gaming and
| work. But to sell it as a social experience is kind of
| ridiculous.
| blobbers wrote:
| When are people going to realize that an immersive version of
| World of Warcraft is really what folks want?
|
| These are real people paying real money who want to be locked in
| a virtual world for hours. Give people who WANT a better
| experience something better.
|
| Instead, they keep trying to shove Netflix and photo reels down
| our throats along with a bunch of casual fast games that people
| get bored of fairly quickly.
| KaoruAoiShiho wrote:
| ? That's a software problem, I'm sure this device will be able
| to serve that usecase fine.
| khazhoux wrote:
| The API is so that developers can launch their WoW.
|
| But yeah, it's surprising they didn't have any demo like that
| today.
| ianmcgowan wrote:
| The choice is clear - Ready Player One or Minority Report?
| princevegeta89 wrote:
| Nothing to ridicule the product itself really, but being immersed
| in a fake world on a regular basis is probably not good.
|
| I am assuming this version 1.0 that will come out will be a
| "testing the waters" sort of a product which could lead the way
| to some useful applications like Media, AR, and Communication
| Services
| npunt wrote:
| Garden variety no-analysis hot take demonstrating a lack of
| understanding of how platforms launch & grow and what trajectory
| this is going in.
|
| Personally I think Apple missed a bit in the marketing by
| positioning this so heavily on average consumer use cases (3d
| pics of kids!) rather than professional use cases, where yes,
| having immersive shared environments can be helpful while
| avoiding any of the legitimate 'consume your life' issues with
| tech in our personal lives. "Boot up an office at home when you
| need it" is an _extremely_ compelling use case and is compatible
| with the ideals of making computing (and work!) more humane.
|
| Unfortunately the author doesn't seem to understand product
| positioning or have the vision to see possibilities enough to
| discuss the consumer v work nuance. And the isolation critique
| could have been interesting but it just defaulted to 'big company
| bad, tech bad.' Critics are essential, we deserve better ones.
| fizx wrote:
| We ridiculed the first generation of bluetooth headsets, calling
| Jawbones "douchenozzles".
|
| People will come around sooner or later on some generation of an
| apple VRset.
| pupppet wrote:
| I wonder how much they could have saved removing that front-
| facing screen. Bet you any money it's gone next revision,
| replaced by some LED that signals what you're looking at.
| jarym wrote:
| No one is going to force him to buy one. Especially if it makes
| him feel isolated.
|
| And one nitpick, a device with a 2 hour battery life (or all day
| if connected to the mains) is clearly not for all-day use. At
| least not the v1 product they presented today.
| solarmist wrote:
| I'm wondering if the battery pack is hot swappable. I'd be
| surprised if it wasn't.
| _dain_ wrote:
| _> No one is going to force him to buy one._
|
| Smartphones didn't exist 20 years ago, now you're forced to use
| one to participate in society.
| paraboul wrote:
| Are you implying that voicing concerns about the potential
| societal implications of technology is no longer valid or
| justifiable?
| jarym wrote:
| No one is preventing him from voicing his concerns. I do
| object to "ensure that every time we someone with that ugly
| Apple ski mask strapped to their faces we let them know how
| ridiculous it is" - that bit sounds like he wants to harass
| anyone who doesn't share HIS concerns.
| pattyj wrote:
| Agreed. However, I think the author fears that, just like
| smartphones, some will become socially pressured into getting
| one and it will cause them harm. So they're issuing a kind of
| public warning.
| JohnFen wrote:
| Or, just like smartphones, we're going to have to put up with
| people around us using them inappropriately in public.
| toyg wrote:
| Most people don't like to wear glasses, even less like tight-
| fitted masks. One will always look like a dork wearing this,
| social ostracism will continue ("seen any fish yet?"...). Phones
| and watches, you can seamlessly integrate into a traditional-
| looking lifestyle. Something like this, you just can't.
| drumhead wrote:
| The headset looks like an amazing product on paper, buts it's
| pricing is way out of the normal apple range. Whe the iPod,
| iPhone, iPad, watch came out, they were expensive but affordable.
| Enough to build up market share and make app stores for them a
| viable proposition. With this headset at this price it's not
| going to get the same volumes, so who's going to write apps for
| it. It feels more like a Lisa than a Mac at this stage, and I'm
| sure a cheaper version is on the horizon.
| granzymes wrote:
| I just don't think the watch market is really there. I feel like
| its shrinking steadily among younger people as the need for a
| time teller is replaced by the modern cell phone. I believe
| people have convinced themselves into convincing companies that
| they actually want a high tech wrist watch when, in reality, the
| market isn't that big and it is shrinking.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8291898
|
| To me these seem pretty stupid. Major features (to me) of ear-
| buds with wires and 3.5" jack are: 1) being attached with wires
| means I don't easily lose them when they slip out of my
| ear/hand/pocket. 2) the 3.5" jack actually keeps them pretty
| solidly attached to my phone (again, less risk of losing them).
| Walking around with two loose tiny objects seems less than ideal
| - at least to me; I'd lose them within days.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13169937
|
| $350 and not out until "early 2015" Dead in the water. That's
| insanely expensive and too late in the smartwatch market in my
| mind.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8291889
| MuffinFlavored wrote:
| > I feel like its shrinking steadily among younger people as
| the need for a time teller is replaced by the modern cell
| phone.
|
| https://www.apple.com/healthcare/apple-watch/
|
| https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207934
| graypegg wrote:
| They're not making those arguments now, they're quoting other
| HN comments from years ago as contrast to the negativity
| today.
|
| There's a few comments like these that people are posting in
| the big apple vision post as well.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| Don't seem entirely comparable in that both watches and iem
| were legitimate markets to which Apple brought an innovative
| products while AR and VR headsets are a notoriously difficult
| market where plenty of products have already tried and failed
| to make money.
|
| If this succeed, to me it will be more akin to what the iPad
| did than to what the watch did.
|
| It's also extremely expensive. I'm curious to see how Apple
| will market it. We will see.
| qwytw wrote:
| > It's also extremely expensive
|
| I assume it's more of a prototype targeted mainly at
| developers and enthusiasts at this point. They're probably
| betting that by the time they can decrease the price
| significantly somebody would've figured out what can you
| actually do with this thing.
| bluejekyll wrote:
| Ok, but $3,499 is a steep price tag. Granted, the pixel density
| and design look amazing. They are probably the absolute best
| VR/AR goggles on the consumer market to date, but to try
| something out and totally shift your computing habits at that
| steep of a tag is going to be a stretch for a lot of people.
|
| Like it might be worth it if you really are able to replace
| your standard monitor setup and use these for long stretches
| with out neck or eye strain. But how will you know until you
| try?
|
| I saw someone say elsewhere, these are not for consumers in
| general. They are for developers to work with, build software
| for, come up with new things... then, if and when a niche is
| found, they'll probably make a much less expensive consumer
| model that focuses on that use case.
|
| That being said, I would love to try these, but I'm more
| interested in an upgraded laptop at the moment, and that money
| would buy a nice one.
| jsheard wrote:
| > They are probably the absolute best VR/AR goggles on the
| consumer market to date
|
| That really depends on your use-case, gaming has been the
| primary application of VR _that people actually care about_
| to date, and the lack of physical controllers in the vein of
| the Quest /PSVR controllers (not just a Playstation pad)
| makes the Vision Pro almost completely useless for that.
| jsight wrote:
| This is Apple. They sell $1500 laptops with 8GB of RAM and
| 512GB of storage. $3,500 is cheap in Apple $$s.
| [deleted]
| basisword wrote:
| The original iPhone cost so much people mocked it. It costs
| twice as much now and people buy them for their 8 year olds.
| If the device provides enough utility (and I imagine down the
| line these will replace laptops, tablets and TV's for a lot
| of people), the price won't matter.
| adoxyz wrote:
| Exactly this. I know Apple didn't invent VR/AR. But they
| also didn't invent the phone. What they did do though is
| provide an amazing user experience for the vast majority of
| people.
|
| I've been on the AR/VR hype train for a long time and have
| had many different headsets over the years. Apple Vision
| Pro seems like it puts all of them to shame. And if Apple
| can execute on this, no doubt, it'll become a household
| staple. And this is Gen 1. Price will come down. Apple has
| to get the experience right though. And so far it looks
| promising.
| ohgoodgod wrote:
| [flagged]
| tengbretson wrote:
| Is the Apple Watch a success?
| seydor wrote:
| And yet it is possible that in the alternate history where
| apple had not done those things, tech might be better. Note
| that they all came out during the booming times of the 2010s
| with cheap money for consumption.
|
| For example, the Samsung S10 had a headphone jack, an SpO2
| meter (who knew we wwould need this in the pandemic!), an FM
| radio, great screen, lightweight. Their newer models have no
| jack (to sell more wireless earphnes), no spo2 (to sell more
| watches), no fm radio (unknown reason), and its heavier. The
| perceptible difference in performance is miniscule despite all
| these years. So , some changes do need to be ridiculed
|
| That said, i dont see this headset in a similar league, this
| seems an experimental prototype because none of the use cases
| mentioned have been proved.
| graypegg wrote:
| I've seen this reposted a bunch. Is it really adding anything
| to the conversation being repeated verbatim?
|
| Yes. People have been wrong in the past.
| granzymes wrote:
| Hey, I went into HN search myself to pull these quotes! It
| was actually quite fun, I recommend scrolling the old
| threads.
|
| In all seriousness, I think it is helpful context that people
| have ridiculed every Apple product launch since the iPhone.
| rospaya wrote:
| So you are suggesting that Apple can do no wrong and
| therefore we shouldn't criticize any of their products? And
| you believe you are positively contributing to this thread?
| alimov wrote:
| Doesn't seem like they are suggesting that apple can do
| no wrong. Just pointing out that this is similar to other
| major Apple announcements. I found their contribution
| interesting, I'm not sure why you feel the need to be
| hostile about it.
| rospaya wrote:
| Because I see the same comment on every single criticism
| of Apple product announcements, basically implying that
| Apple isn't capable of doing wrong and that any criticism
| will just be in vain.
|
| The passive aggression is ugly, it's not a healthy
| environment for discussion and (as the kids say) simping
| for a massive company is just plain disgusting.
| Isamu wrote:
| Of course, Apple have had some bombs. And it is
| instructive to look at them and assess where they went
| wrong versus the the times they were right.
|
| But the commentary that happens every time they launch a
| new product is not very predictive of success.
| khazhoux wrote:
| It's a perfectly valid counter to all the people who
| posted today, on day zero and months from getting any
| hands-on time with the Vision Pro, that it must surely be
| destined to failure, and even worthy of ridicule.
|
| I feel like the people at Apple (and similar companies)
| are pushing their imaginations and very obviously taking
| a huge risk, whereas all the nay-sayers are just sitting
| comfortably in the boundaries of the world as they
| understand it, and passing judgement accordingly.
|
| I have no idea if Vision Pro will succeed, but as a
| technologist, I'll spend today thinking of ways it might
| surprise me for the better, rather than the ways in which
| it may fall short.
| qwytw wrote:
| > whereas all the nay-sayers are just sitting comfortably
| in the boundaries of the world as they understand it, and
| passing judgement accordingly.
|
| How would you expect progress to occur? Company releases
| a product users criticize it and make fun of it
| company/competitors either drop the idea or come up with
| an improved version. What's wrong about that? Why would
| anyone care about hurting a massive corporation's
| feelings? Let's not anthropomorphize them...
|
| > just sitting comfortably in the boundaries of the world
| as they understand it,
|
| Well it's pretty clear that Vision Pro is very expensive
| and has no clear use cases. And most criticism is almost
| entirely focused on these two aspects.
|
| > I'll spend today thinking of ways it might surprise me
| for the better, rather than the ways in which it may fall
| short.
|
| So instead of thinking of ways how something could be
| improved you'll just try to figure out how to make the
| best of what you have? Best approaches are perfectly
| viable and reasonable depending on the situation.
| wfleming wrote:
| It dates to at least the iPod!
| https://m.slashdot.org/story/21026
|
| Probably earlier: I remember people mocking the colorful
| iMacs. I'm sure you could dig up some pc magazine articles
| from the 90s dunking on the iMacs and iBooks :).
| mckirk wrote:
| You might want to make it clearer that these are quotes by
| prepending '>'s. At least to me, this wasn't clear at
| first.
|
| That being said, I think it is interesting context to
| remind people of the immediate reactions to the other Apple
| launches of the recent past. Especially the headphone jack
| hits home for me, because I'm still a huge fan of the 3,5mn
| connector, but it fairly quickly became clear that the
| early widespread stance of 'I'll never buy a phone without
| a headphone jack!' soon turned into a somewhat lonely
| fight.
| granzymes wrote:
| >You might want to make it clearer that these are quotes
| by prepending '>'s. At least to me, this wasn't clear at
| first.
|
| That's actually exactly the reaction I was going for.
| JohnFen wrote:
| I've still never owned a phone without a headphone jack,
| and I never will. I do also use bluetooth in some
| situations, but wired earphones work much better, with
| greater reliability.
| [deleted]
| brookst wrote:
| So why are people still writing "Apple's entry into this new
| product category is doomed because it does not meet my
| personal expectations for the category" articles without
| discussing the outcomes of previous doomsayings?
|
| Perhaps the headset deserves ridicule and will fail. Given
| Apple's track record, perhaps it would make sense to
| acknowledge their many successes with products people
| dismissed, and explain why this one is more similar to their
| failures that people dismissed (Ping, anyone?)
| tazjin wrote:
| They're not even wrong about the headphone thing.
| JohnFen wrote:
| That people have been wrong before for other products in no way
| comments on or invalidates what they're saying now about this
| one.
|
| All it says is predicting the future is incredibly hard and all
| predictions (the ones predicting success as well as failure)
| are without much weight.
| thomk wrote:
| I don't think Apple predicts the future as much as it drives
| the future. Just my opinion.
| JohnFen wrote:
| Every product a company makes is a prediction that the
| product will succeed (if they didn't think it would
| succeed, they wouldn't make it).
|
| This applies to Apple just as to every other company. It's
| not like Apple hasn't had product failures, after all.
| [deleted]
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| https://www.pcworld.com/article/516523/ipad_first_impression...
|
| No Second Coming: Apple's iPad Just a Big iPod Touch
|
| But at the end of the day, the show's centerpiece - the iPad --
| is just a big iPod Touch. Lots of folks will want it, in a
| hypothetical sort of way. But it's hard to imagine all that many
| of them will fork over the initial $499 for a crippled version,
| or as much as $829 (for the 64 GB/3G model you'd want).
| [deleted]
| basisword wrote:
| >> Host of the Tech Won't Save Us podcast and author of "Road to
| Nowhere: What Silicon Valley Gets Wrong about the Future of
| Transportation"
|
| So...man who hates tech hates new tech. Shocker.
| anonymousiam wrote:
| The facetime video
| (https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/06/introducing-apple-vis...)
| shows the faces of the people she's online with, but they will
| not be able to see her face while she's wearing the "spacial
| computer", unless it generates a fake avatar for them.
| larksimian wrote:
| It generates an avatar for her. They show it in the demo, it
| looks really good.
| wojciem wrote:
| Hardware is impressive as expected - engineering porno.
|
| One use-case that i can imagine having this headset is as a
| replacement for external displays. But that would need to be
| conditioned on great pass through and ability to use physical
| keyboard and mouse.
| not_your_mentat wrote:
| iSnorkel sold separately.
| pcurve wrote:
| "But this is another moment where we need to recognize that isn't
| true, and we do have the collective power to stop technologies
| that don't serve us"
|
| ???
|
| I'm not a fan boy, but if there's a market with unmet needs that
| can be solved by $3,500 helmet, so be it.
|
| The market will decide.
|
| I think Apple will have no problem with 500,000 in pre-order by
| the time this ships.
|
| $3,500 is a lot of money, but many consumer electronics have cost
| far more adjusted for inflation. It's not an insurmountable cost.
|
| The question is, is the product compelling enough? I personally
| think it is.
| wvenable wrote:
| We've wanted virtual environments from moment that William T.
| Riker stepped onto the Holodeck. We've been dreaming of a
| cyberpunk reality since the first snow crash. It feels strange to
| blame Apple for this "vision" of computing.
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