[HN Gopher] Workers rely on medieval era tech to reconstruct the...
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       Workers rely on medieval era tech to reconstruct the Notre Dame
        
       Author : berkeleyjunk
       Score  : 77 points
       Date   : 2023-06-02 15:44 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.popsci.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.popsci.com)
        
       | cirrus3 wrote:
       | There is a great episode of NOVA about it:
       | https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/rebuilding-notre-dame/
        
       | ars wrote:
       | > it's ethically and artistically far more imperative to stay
       | true
       | 
       | I could maybe understand artistically if the end result looks
       | different. But ethically? It's a building, ethics don't apply to
       | it.
        
         | barney54 wrote:
         | I didn't realize that using power tools was unethical.
        
       | cmcaleer wrote:
       | Whatever happened to the many hundreds of millions French
       | billionaires said they would donate for it? I know a couple have
       | coughed up, and most of the companies who said they would have
       | but I don't all who promised to do so have.
        
         | dnissley wrote:
         | Nothing here suggests they're running short on funds
        
       | falcolas wrote:
       | I've seen some videos on TikTok by stonemasons who are re-
       | building the decorative shapes in chunks of marble; it's very
       | cool to watch and see them doing it.
       | 
       | It's probably not even remotely economic or "productive", but
       | sometimes that's OK.
        
         | hef19898 wrote:
         | Funny, how the knowledge about cathedral building was rather
         | well preserved. After all, all cathedrals still standing have a
         | cadrebof employed masons and other artisans to maintain and
         | renovate them. The actual building is dofferent, I assume an
         | lot of that will be rediscovered during the Notre Dam
         | restauration.
        
           | falcolas wrote:
           | It's my belief that the underpinning design principles have
           | not been lost - cathedrals are quite well studied by
           | architects as I understand it.
           | 
           | So, while some of the specifics are probably having to be
           | identified and re-implemented, the basics are broadly
           | understood. Stonemasons as a mass-employer has gone away, but
           | like blacksmithing there are still individuals out there who
           | carry on the tradition.
        
         | jfengel wrote:
         | The whole building isn't economic or productive. They could
         | probably make more money tearing it down and replacing it with
         | a Starbucks.
         | 
         | The vast majority of human activity isn't productive. And
         | that's awesome. We've got so much wealth that we can afford to
         | use it on things that are merely pretty or interesting, like
         | video games and space telescopes and flowers.
         | 
         | It would be nice if we could use more of it to ensure that
         | people have the basics, but that's rarely about lack of money.
         | It's nearly always due to some more systemic problem that can't
         | be fought just by throwing money at it.
        
           | barelyauser wrote:
           | >but that's rarely about lack of money
           | 
           | Yes, it is the lack of action. People are selfish. End of
           | story. We have the tech and knowledge to fix it all, but
           | burning a ton of kerosene to travel to the other side of the
           | world for 2 a weeks vacation is more desirable.
        
           | ceejayoz wrote:
           | > The whole building isn't economic or productive. They could
           | probably make more money tearing it down and replacing it
           | with a Starbucks.
           | 
           | It likely has economic _impact_ vastly larger than any
           | Starbucks via tourism.
        
             | barelyauser wrote:
             | And what does "economic impact" means? A bunch of people
             | burning jet fuel to get there and spend some hours looking
             | at it? Why not working towards helping other people?
        
               | ceejayoz wrote:
               | Buying from the cafes nearby. Patronizing the hotels.
               | Going to see a show after. All the things one does in the
               | neighborhood around a tourist attraction.
               | 
               | A week-long golf tournament in my town brings in 200k+
               | people and local government touts a $190M economic impact
               | number for that. I'm sure it's fudged to be as high as
               | possible, but pretending Notre Dame doesn't have an
               | economic benefit to Paris would be odd.
        
               | barelyauser wrote:
               | Money means nothing. Human time is what matters. Consider
               | that back at their place of origin things did not get
               | done. Economic impact means nothing. If I gave you $100
               | to watch me do nothing, what value this transaction
               | created? There is virtually nothing to show for at the
               | end but we created $100 of economic impact...
        
               | ceejayoz wrote:
               | > If I gave you $100 to watch me do nothing, what value
               | this transaction created?
               | 
               | That seems entirely up to you.
        
               | seszett wrote:
               | Not all tourists in Paris comme from far away, probably a
               | majority of tourists came by train or car. I never take a
               | plane to visit Paris.
        
               | lo_zamoyski wrote:
               | I have always been disgusted by this sort of low,
               | mediocre, pseudo-moral argument. "Why build these grand
               | churches? You could feed people with that money!" "Why
               | put all this effort into beautiful buildings? You could
               | build more low-income housing for the same cash!" It
               | sickens me.
               | 
               | We can do both. Man does not live by bread alone.
               | Utilitarian mediocrity is satisfied with a full stomach
               | and keeping warm.
        
             | jfengel wrote:
             | Admission was free to the cathedral itself, though you
             | needed to pay to visit the roof.
             | 
             | Of course it was a draw to Paris in general. It's hard to
             | measure its impact, since the cathedral fire coincides with
             | COVID, but Paris tourism has nearly reached pre-pandemic
             | levels and remains the most-visited city in the world.
             | 
             | I don't honestly believe it would be a net economic benefit
             | to put a Starbucks there. But more to the point, the whole
             | thing is there just because people like to look at it.
             | That's all the "productivity" it needs.
        
       | franky47 wrote:
       | There are many solutions in old hand-tool woodworking that were
       | elegant back then, and are still more relevant today than
       | spinning a tool at 20k RPM.
       | 
       | Example: when removing waste with a chisel for joinery, going
       | cross-grain allows popping large chunks with ease, rather than
       | route them to dust. And it's a lot of fun!
       | 
       | Power tools do have a use for repeatability and mass-production,
       | which may be useful in the Notre Dame build, but I find the
       | carpenters' approach more honorable.
        
         | samtho wrote:
         | As a woodworker, I get what your saying but calling the
         | approach of using older methods as "more honorable" kind of
         | rubs me the wrong way. It's not like the original builders had
         | a choice of what to use, I would bet they would choose the
         | modern stuff if you could somehow loan them the technology from
         | the future. Using modern tools is not antithetical to
         | craftsmanship, it's about the care, attention to detail,
         | designs choices, using appropriate materials/fasteners, etc.
         | Not saying they have to change the look at all, but they can
         | make good and faithful reproductions with modern tools that
         | capture the essence of what was lost.
        
           | mywittyname wrote:
           | Cheap and quick has been the carpenter's mantra since the
           | dawn of time. One look at the inside of an old piece of
           | furniture shows how little effort went into things that
           | weren't readily seen.
           | 
           | Mortise and tenon joints are fast and easy (read: cheap and
           | quick) to make with a chisel and hammer. You can bet
           | carpenters of old would be using nails and screws to build
           | all kinds of things, if they were as cheap and abundant as
           | they are now.
        
       | hwc wrote:
       | they should have built the roof with steel & glass so it can't
       | burn!
        
         | lo_zamoyski wrote:
         | But it would have been ugly.
        
         | klyrs wrote:
         | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crystal_Palace
        
         | NoZebra120vClip wrote:
         | Don't forget the controversial but spectacular Christ (nee
         | Crystal) Cathedral in Orange County:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Cathedral_(Garden_Grove...
         | 
         | Which was a Televangelical showpiece until it was purchased and
         | renovated by the Roman Catholic diocese. Everything old is new
         | again!
        
       | bambax wrote:
       | The rebuilding is apparently going well, but this is hiding the
       | fact that nobody seems to be doing any inquiry about why the fire
       | wasn't stopped in time.
       | 
       | As far as we know, the fire was an accident (not foul play) --
       | but an extremely preventable one. There were works in progress on
       | the roof of the cathedral, so people were coming and going, some
       | of them possibly smoking, electrical devices were being used,
       | etc.
       | 
       | And to monitor all this activity, there was only one guy, who had
       | started on the job a couple of weeks earlier, who had received
       | little to no training, and who didn't even know where the alarm
       | was.
       | 
       | The point was to "save on costs", that is, in order to save maybe
       | 1,300 euros / month over three months, the people in charge
       | caused 1 billion euros of damage and lost irreparable historical
       | artefacts.
       | 
       | There is a whole administrative department in France, whose sole
       | responsibility is to make sure this kind of catastrophe never
       | happens. At the very least, people should have been fired, from
       | the site manager to the culture minister. Yet nobody's being
       | investigated, let alone prosecuted or punished. Incredible.
        
         | soco wrote:
         | "Save the costs" is the official religion of the MBA era we
         | live in and no sacrifice is too big. Am I sarcastic? I can't
         | tell.
        
           | scottLobster wrote:
           | Yep, to the modern administrative class "don't shit where you
           | eat" is laughably old fashioned. Modernity brings a new
           | contest: who can shit where they eat the most for the
           | longest? Last one to get cholera wins! And don't worry about
           | the actual cholera infection, that's what taxpayer bailouts
           | are for!
        
             | giraffe_lady wrote:
             | "where you eat" is too vague to be actionable policy the
             | real profit is in boundary pushing. Just how close _can_
             | you get the shit to the food? In this century we will find
             | out.
        
           | dr-detroit wrote:
           | Its a waste of money you could actually help people instead.
           | When Victor Hugo published his novel The Hunchback of Notre
           | Dame in 1831 nobody cared about Notre Dame. Anything of value
           | had been stolen during the French Revolution and the
           | Cathedral was in terrible repair.
        
         | goodSteveramos wrote:
         | [flagged]
        
         | hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
         | > The rebuilding is apparently going well, but this is hiding
         | the fact that nobody seems to be doing any inquiry about why
         | the fire wasn't stopped in time.
         | 
         | Is this a true statement? I remember reading an extremely
         | detailed play-by-play in one of the major papers a couple years
         | ago that did a pretty good analysis of why a confluence of
         | factors led to the fire. I don't know what the status is of any
         | governmental, official investigation, but I at least saw some
         | thorough investigative reporting from news organizations.
         | 
         | I agree with the sibling comment that this feels a little like
         | scapegoating. Like many disasters like this, it wasn't just one
         | thing, but a confluence of lots of little innocuous things
         | (e.g. new guy on the job, can't remember all the details but
         | maybe there was a phone number change IIRC, etc.) that led to
         | the fire. Not saying a thorough investigation isn't warranted,
         | but pretending these types of things are completely preventable
         | is also a mistake IMO.
         | 
         | Edit: This is from a _US_ government website, and I can 't see
         | all the details but it looks like someone did do a root cause
         | analysis, https://www.govevents.com/details/37273/risk-
         | management-case... :                   In the days following
         | the fire, questions began to arise about what could have caused
         | the fire and, also about the nature and extent of the fire
         | detection and protection systems. It turns out Notre Dame had
         | one of the most sophisticated and elaborate fire safety systems
         | ever designed, befitting a landmark of its stature. A team of
         | experts had spent more than six years and untold funds
         | developing the fire protection plan. Yet, when the system was
         | put to a real test, it failed in spectacular fashion. How this
         | could have happened, and what lessons can be learned from this
         | tragic event with be discussed in detail.
        
           | bambax wrote:
           | There was an inquiry about the direct causes of the fire,
           | that concluded the initial "spark", so to speak, was indeed
           | an accident. I agree with that.
           | 
           | > _Is this a true statement?_
           | 
           | Yes, I think it is, unless one can point to an inquiry, not
           | about the fire itself, and how it started (which has been
           | done), but about the chain of responsibilities of the people
           | in charge of the construction site at the time of the fire.
           | 
           | My point is, having just one guy with no training and no
           | experience, monitor a landmark of this importance, during
           | major works on the roof, is incredibly careless and
           | unprofessional and should have consequences. But apparently
           | it doesn't.
        
         | jltsiren wrote:
         | Intact historical buildings and artifacts are rare, because
         | something like this is the expected outcome. People are
         | careless and incompetent, except by accident.
         | 
         | Restoring a major historical building is always a one-off
         | project. You follow the best practices, and the chance of a
         | catastrophic outcome may be 10%, 1%, or 0.1%. You can't tell
         | those scenarios apart in advance, because they all look very
         | similar. Success is overwhelmingly likely. If a catastrophe
         | occurs, the reason is often obvious in retrospect, and you will
         | take that into account in the next project. But it clearly
         | wasn't obvious in advance.
        
         | hackernewds wrote:
         | Why is there a tendency for scapegoating necessary in these
         | situations? It seems like a western cultural carnal temptation
         | for personal justice porn
        
           | canoebuilder wrote:
           | Something bad occurred. Let's figure out what, why, and how,
           | and make any necessary changes to make future occurrences of
           | bad thing less likely.
           | 
           | I don't see how that is scapegoating.
        
         | chrstphrknwtn wrote:
         | > some of them possibly smoking
         | 
         | I lived in Paris for a time, I would say it is guaranteed some
         | were smoking.
        
         | canoebuilder wrote:
         | > _As far as we know, the fire was an accident_
         | 
         | "As far as we know"
         | 
         | In the same sense of like "innocent until proven guilty"
         | 
         | But is that the right lens to be looking through here?
         | 
         | What is the rate of accidental church fires, let alone at
         | somewhere that is such a treasured location as this?
         | 
         | Then factor in, wasn't there an ongoing spate of what were
         | clearly church arson attacks going on at the time?
         | 
         | Then factor in what you were describing of what seems to be an
         | inexplicably lackadaisical approach of getting to the bottom of
         | what occurred, giving the impression of some wanting above all
         | else to divert attention from what one would think to be the
         | most pertinent questions about what occurred.
         | 
         | Then do the calculus of, okay, if it could be shown to be a
         | clear cut case of being accidental why wouldn't people in a
         | position to do so, show that? That would have minimal, if any,
         | political ramifications. Whereas the political ramifications of
         | other possible causes of the fire would be much higher.
         | 
         | It raises some questions doesn't it?
         | 
         | Why aren't people in positions of influence on this matter and
         | in political leadership doing what their office calls on them
         | to do?
         | 
         | And given what can be observed of their actions what is one to
         | make of their intentions?
         | 
         | Why aren't they safe guarding and defending the nation's
         | culture and heritage? Why are they leaving it open and
         | vulnerable to attack?
        
           | krisoft wrote:
           | > if it could be shown to be a clear cut case of being
           | accidental why wouldn't people in a position to do so, show
           | that?
           | 
           | How would that even look like? The conclusion that it is most
           | likely an accidental fire was not reached by finding
           | something in particular, but by not finding evidence
           | indicating a criminal motive.
           | 
           | > It raises some questions doesn't it?
           | 
           | You are are certainly raising a lot of questions. If you
           | think something why don't you spell it out?
           | 
           | > Why aren't they safe guarding and defending the nation's
           | culture and heritage? Why are they leaving it open and
           | vulnerable to attack?
           | 
           | Why are you talking about an attack? Who attacked the church
           | in your opinion and how?
           | 
           | What in particular would you like to be done by whom?
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | hef19898 wrote:
           | So, your line thinking goes:
           | 
           | It can have been an accident, or not. If not, well there were
           | a lot of arsons happening at the same , maybe, so it most
           | likely was arson. Not calling it arson is clearly political.
           | And that means it was arson, because people in power and the
           | establishment cannot be trustesd. It also means the arson was
           | caused by politians, and those people in power not protecting
           | us. Because they fail to do their job
           | 
           | You are aware that the moment the fire actually was an
           | accident, the other 90% of your comment are pretty close to a
           | conspiracy theory?
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | ceejayoz wrote:
           | > What is the rate of accidental church fires, let alone at
           | somewhere that is such a treasured location as this?
           | 
           | https://apps.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v2i7-508.
           | ..
           | 
           | 1,300/year in the US, 25% of which are arson. Clearly it's
           | not a unique occurrence.
        
             | canoebuilder wrote:
             | Are you saying "clearly not a unique occurrence" in regard
             | to accidental, or arson?
             | 
             | I'm surprised at the 25% arson rate, that is considerably
             | higher than I would have guessed, and when combined with
             | the strange response as OP was pointing out, and the fact
             | that there's not a large subset of "No cause determined,"
             | it would seem to tip the scale pretty strongly to arson
             | being the most probable cause in this case.
        
               | brianwawok wrote:
               | A lot of people are angry at churches. Mostly with good
               | reason. So they tend to get the torch a lot more than
               | your average business.
        
               | canoebuilder wrote:
               | Hating God, is hating the world, is hating yourself. No
               | good reason for that.
               | 
               | If another earthly mortal connected to a church has done
               | something you take issue with, take it up with that
               | person, don't damage or destroy a community's property,
               | heritage, and connection to the transcendent.
               | 
               |  _people here srsly advocating /justifying criminal,
               | potentially homicidal activity, smh_
        
               | andrepd wrote:
               | 1. How is "hating god" hating the world and yourself
               | (lol), and 2. who tf is advocating for criminal activity
               | here? You clearly have an axe to grind, so perhaps take
               | it somewhere else.
        
           | jlawson wrote:
           | I'm reminded how literally within an hour of the fire
           | breaking out, the news was telling us all _very clearly_ that
           | it was an accident - a fact that they clearly could not
           | possibly have known at that time given the flames were still
           | rising and no investigation could possibly have been done.
        
             | hef19898 wrote:
             | Not every lazy reporting is hiding a large conspiracy.
             | Sometimes it is just the lazy picking of the most likely
             | cause to get cotent out.
        
             | dghlsakjg wrote:
             | Can you point to a source that shows that news was
             | reporting that it was an accident within hours, and not
             | stating that there is no appearance of foul play/terrorism.
             | 
             | "This doesn't appear to be a terrorist attack" is a normal
             | thing to say in a city and country where terrorist attacks
             | are somewhat common.
        
           | EamonnMR wrote:
           | The rate of construction accidents is what you should look
           | at, not church fires.
        
             | canoebuilder wrote:
             | Ok but the fact of there being some construction going on
             | is somewhat ancillary to the whole point being made of the
             | various factors observed and at play here that come
             | together and raise some questions. I could have easily left
             | the "what is the rate" part out, and the points made would
             | have been just as strong or stronger.
             | 
             | And yes there was some sort of maintenance/construction
             | going on, and if that played a role in the fire one would
             | think at some point in the intervening years between then
             | and now someone would have shown how it played a role.
        
               | ceejayoz wrote:
               | They did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre-
               | Dame_fire#Investigation
               | 
               | Workers were smoking in a space where it was explicitly
               | not permitted, and renovation work meant there was
               | electrical supply where "normally, no electrical is
               | allowed in the roof space because of the extreme fire
               | risk".
               | 
               | Pinpointing the _exact_ source of ignition is a bit
               | challenging given the fire and collapse, I suspect, but
               | without any evidence pointing _towards_ arson it seems
               | like a pretty reasonable conclusion.
        
               | canoebuilder wrote:
               | Were they smoking there in the moments immediately
               | preceding the fire, and a dropped cigarette and maybe
               | some sawdust or something somehow ignited a 35cm or
               | whatever wide beam? And the smokers didn't notice? But I
               | think the answer is there weren't any construction
               | workers around in the time before the fire to be smoking
               | anyway.
               | 
               | "Maybe it was an electrical thing or something" is far
               | from conclusive evidence, and as OP was saying,
               | completely incredible as a response to an event of this
               | magnitude that attracted worldwide attention.
               | 
               | > _pinpointing_
               | 
               | I'm always surprised when I hear what fire forensics can
               | figure out given the state of the evidence being worked
               | with.
               | 
               | > _any evidence pointing toward arson_
               | 
               | The whole point of my original post was that _all_ the
               | circumstantial evidence points toward arson.
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | andrepd wrote:
               | >and a dropped cigarette and maybe some sawdust or
               | something somehow ignited a 35cm or whatever wide beam?
               | And the smokers didn't notice?
               | 
               | You clearly don't know how fire works and just how
               | quickly it spreads. You also vastly underestimate how
               | flammable the roof material was.
               | 
               | >all the circumstantial evidence points toward arson
               | 
               | Pray tell them, instead of slinging vague provocations.
               | Better yet, if you have such clear evidence, I'm sure
               | you're gonna go to the police or the papers with it,
               | right?
        
               | krisoft wrote:
               | > The whole point of my original post was that all the
               | circumstantial evidence points toward arson.
               | 
               | What evidence are you talking about?
        
               | andrepd wrote:
               | The evidence that he is Catholic and there is a war on
               | the West and therefore some foreign migrant construction
               | worker did it on purpose as an attack on christian
               | cultural heritage.
               | 
               | Duh.
        
               | krisoft wrote:
               | I don't think it is cool to put words into other people's
               | mouth. I'm sure canoebuilder can speak for themselves.
        
         | londons_explore wrote:
         | It has burnt down and been rebuilt many times in it's history.
         | 
         | Just like we are rebuilding with original stones and
         | techniques, one should perhaps argue that it should also be
         | rebuilt with its original fire resilience too - ie. Low.
         | 
         | At this point, a fire once every hundred years or so is part of
         | the culture, and to stop doing that is in a way destroying the
         | character of the cathedral.
        
           | red75prime wrote:
           | I can't say whether it's sarcasm or not.
        
             | NoZebra120vClip wrote:
             | Perhaps it's somewhat pragmatic. Churches are built to last
             | by the standards of the era, and they're funded by
             | generational resources by people who want to make a legacy,
             | but churches are still victims of disaster at the ordinary
             | rate. Earthquakes seem to claim significant victims even to
             | the present day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-
             | Cathedral_of_St._Mary
             | 
             | The Christian view of fire is, of course, multi-faceted, as
             | the Holy Spirit is a force for renewal, rebirth and
             | purification. No parishioner wants their home burned down,
             | of course, but at the end of the day, those are simply
             | buildings, and they're replaceable, and every demolition is
             | an opportunity to remake something new and wonderful.
        
       | soco wrote:
       | They also rely on medieval era trees to reconstruct it, as the
       | more than 1000 oak trees painstakingly sought through entire
       | France had to be more than 1 m wide. Okay not medieval - they are
       | only about 200 years old. Could have made a nice title though.
        
         | Fiahil wrote:
         | Between 200 and 400 years old, yes, exactly ! Most of those
         | trees are older than the United States :)
        
         | shagie wrote:
         | There's the story by the Long Now foundation about the oak
         | beams at the New College in Oxford
         | https://longnow.org/ideas/humans-and-trees-in-long-term-part...
         | /// https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/oak-beams-new-college-
         | ox... ///
         | https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2013/oct/02/david-...
         | 
         | Another example (and less debatable in its authenticity) Why
         | the US Navy Manages Its Own Private Forest -
         | https://www.military.com/history/why-us-navy-manages-its-own...
         | /// https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2015/05/11/the-wooden-
         | wall... (and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28793461 )
        
           | kryptiskt wrote:
           | In the 1950s, Lund Cathedral bought the quarries where the
           | stone for it originally came 900 years ago, so they know they
           | have a source of the right stone for renovations.
        
         | mcdonje wrote:
         | That's really sad. What a shame cutting down 1k large old oaks
         | for any building at all. It's not necessary these days. Of
         | course they need some wood in publicly viewable areas, but this
         | amount of not only wood but large old oak trees is excessive
         | and concerning.
         | 
         | Is there any indication that they're improving the structure so
         | it will be more fire proof? Or are they simply restoring it to
         | the configuration that already failed?
        
           | tokai wrote:
           | Oak don't grow straight naturally, so all most all tall 1
           | meter thick oak trees were planted and are crops. If you
           | don't cut some down now and replant there will be no tall 1
           | mete wide oak trees in 200 years time. Most European forests
           | are cultural landscapes that are actively harvested and
           | renewed.
        
           | hackernewds wrote:
           | The cutting down of 1000 year oaks is sad. Perhaps we can
           | have the perspective that these trees lived fulfilling lives
           | and the younger trees deserve centuries?
           | 
           | And after all the Notre Dame is also a very historically
           | significant building
        
           | malartic wrote:
           | > Or are they simply restoring it to the configuration that
           | already failed?
           | 
           | 780 years is not that bad for a building. (or, more
           | precisely, the roof frame)
           | 
           | Macron & co had some idea for new things. They were all
           | horrible. While I do think with good taste one could do some
           | new things nicely ( e.g maybe a titanium-based roof instead
           | of the lead one ), a restoration is the next best choice when
           | proposed new things are crazy ugly/out-of-touch.
           | 
           | Btw, in our age, and since at least the early middle-age in
           | France and old Europe, the use of old, large trees is the
           | main political reason to keep alive some old, large forest
           | with old trees. For ordinary wood they do plantations of
           | fast-growing stuff and cut at maybe 40y or so.
        
             | mcdonje wrote:
             | The only electrical fire vector they needed to worry about
             | 780 years ago was lightning storms.
             | 
             | I'm not proposing ugly or out of touch changes. Materials
             | changes like titanium instead of lead are exactly the sort
             | of thing I'm talking about. Not all of the oak will be in
             | publicly viewable areas.
             | 
             | I'm surprised and disappointed you don't keep forests
             | around simply to benefit nature and humanity without
             | needing a pretext of building construction.
        
           | kelsolaar wrote:
           | The cathedral has been up for hundreds of years, hard to
           | qualify that as a failure.
        
             | mcdonje wrote:
             | Not exactly in its most recent configuration that failed.
             | 
             | The people in charge are so concerned about historical
             | accuracy they need to cut down a thousand large oaks, but
             | their predecessors weren't so concerned about historical
             | accuracy when they retrofitted a medieval structure with
             | the electrical wiring that ended up causing it to burn
             | down.
        
               | hef19898 wrote:
               | Lucky for Notre Dame, HN is not charge of
               | reconstruction...
        
         | franky47 wrote:
         | We have a forest in the center of France that was dedicated to
         | producing ship masts. Surely some of those oak trees may have
         | fit the bill.
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_of_Tron%C3%A7ais
        
       | Animats wrote:
       | They're using ordinary power tools, such as bandsaws and sanders.
       | There's some hand tool work on the connections between beams. It
       | looks like cabinetmaking carpentry on a larger scale, with lots
       | of chiseled joints.[1]
       | 
       | The real hand work is on artistic stonework. That really is being
       | done by hand. Omni CNC's proposals to make replacement parts with
       | their stone-cutting computer controlled milling machines were
       | turned down.[2]
       | 
       | [1] https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/travel/notre-dame-
       | restoratio...
       | 
       | [2] https://www.omni-cnc.com/how-cnc-stone-cutting-machine-
       | help-...
        
       | shirleyquirk wrote:
       | I came here to share that the importance of using contemporaneous
       | materials, if not methods, was highlighted for me when I worked
       | on Bath cathedral and saw how the victorian 'improvements' of
       | using iron rather than wood to fix the stonework caused much
       | damage a century later; iron expands when it rusts and causes
       | cracking.
       | 
       | Then I see linked in that article that Notre Dame was a very
       | early example of using iron staples! I can only think that they
       | were used away from water, unlike Bath, where the repairs were on
       | the window fixings.
        
         | mywittyname wrote:
         | > iron expands when it rusts and causes cracking.
         | 
         | This is often a contributing factor in the failure of modern
         | steel-reinforced concrete structures.
        
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