[HN Gopher] Solid state active cooling on a Mini PC
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Solid state active cooling on a Mini PC
Author : PaulHoule
Score : 77 points
Date : 2023-06-02 13:54 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theregister.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theregister.com)
| nottorp wrote:
| [quote]Frore believes small is beautiful and hopes many more
| products will follow, selling the AirJet for tightly-packed
| devices in which passive heat management means lesser CPUs are
| deployed, or silicon is throttled back to avoid
| overheating.[/quote]
|
| How about leaving the throttling on and making the device even
| cooler and quieter instead?
| packetlost wrote:
| User controllable fan-curves should be standard for any
| actively cooled device.
| nottorp wrote:
| Even when they are the software works only in Windows...
| smolder wrote:
| For motherboards you can typically set them in the BIOS, so
| no software needed there. For GPUs, IDK what exists outside
| of windows, but I'd expect there to be some kind of utility
| for it in the Linux world.
| 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
| Fine tuning the fan curves in the BIOS is a pretty crummy
| experience requiring multiple reboots to test the system
| under load and play with the configuration. If there was
| a Linux compatible tool to tweak them on demand, I would
| love to know.
| Zemtomo wrote:
| That already exist. This product is not for the case you
| describe.
| nottorp wrote:
| ... is not marketed for ...
| Havoc wrote:
| Struggling to see how this will not get clogged up in a week
| flat. Tiny membranes moving air through a narrow slit sounds like
| bad news for even moderately dusty houses. Hopefully I'm missing
| something there though because fanless would be ideal
| judge2020 wrote:
| From the LTT video linked elsewhere in these comments
| (timestamp 6:13), it has insanely high static pressure, which
| means you can install dust filters on the actual laptop intake,
| in addition to the AirJet itself having a dust filter, without
| sacrificing airflow. In addition, supposedly there's a reverse
| airflow mode that would allow it to blast dust out of the dust
| filters.
| Havoc wrote:
| Oh that's actually clever. Thanks for sharing
| belltaco wrote:
| LTT hands on video with a lot more details and a teardown
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdD0yMS40a0
| yboris wrote:
| Quick read link:
| https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/23/23733592/frore-airjet-zot...
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| How well do these deal with dust?
| droopyEyelids wrote:
| Last time these were in the news I was curious how they'd handle
| environmental dust. Did they ever release information about that?
| enragedcacti wrote:
| The units have paper filters on them and they have said that
| the very high static pressure means that laptops designed
| around them could start using external filters without
| hampering the performance like they would on existing laptop
| cooling solutions.
|
| The LTT video quoted something like a 5+ year service life for
| the filters. That could probably be extended with disassembly
| and cleaning or potentially by replacing the filters which seem
| to basically just be a sticker that goes on top of the unit.
| alex7734 wrote:
| In Linus' video it was said that it reverses flow for a second
| to remove the dust from the filters
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Related: passive cooling case that can handle a 4080:
| https://www.anandtech.com/show/18887/streacoms-sg10-case-can...
| karmakaze wrote:
| I can't imagine wanting to run this in the summer. Unless I
| really needed to see output in realtime, better to use it in a
| remote data center.
| nottorp wrote:
| So many transparent panels. If those were radiators too it
| could handle four 4080s!
| mrangle wrote:
| Been seeing press releases, like this article, for this tech over
| awhile now. I'm now in a "start selling it or it didn't happen"
| phase of attention to it.
| pkd wrote:
| It is available in a zotac mini PC.
| minhazm wrote:
| I saw this video[1] of them at CES and was wondering when people
| would actually be able to get their hands on one. Cool to see
| they'll actually be in a product soon.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGxTnGEAx3E
| fnord77 wrote:
| how is this "solid state" if it is just a fancy flat fan?
| amiga-workbench wrote:
| Because its using piezoelectric elements to move the air. There
| are no motors or bearings in here.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| " We were told the vibrating membranes are made with
| techniques similar to those used for production of
| semiconductors and screens - hence the "solid state cooler"
| description."
|
| In other words, not at all solid-state. Some process they
| used to make a component reminds them of solid state
| manufacture techniques.
| enragedcacti wrote:
| Would you call a quartz clock "not at all solid-state"?
| After all, it uses a piezoelectric material that vibrates
| to cause an effect.
|
| I think that description would be technically correct while
| also being very misleading to the average person, and I
| think that's why we've seen the colloquial definition of
| "solid-state" expand to effectively mean "non-mechanical"
| in some domains.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| No. Not at all. I would call it crystal resonator.
| Because it's not solid state, there's no semiconductor. I
| think you might be confusing that "it looks like a chip
| kinda".
|
| If you wanted a solid state clock source, that is a MEMS.
|
| And further, no one calls, Crystal resonators "solid
| state" for marketing purposes, which is all that's going
| on here.
| enragedcacti wrote:
| I feel like we've reached the all too common HN cliche of
| having to address that words have multiple meanings and
| those meanings change over time. "solid-state" only means
| "semiconductors" because solid semiconductors replaced
| gaseous state devices.
|
| If we operate by that definition these devices are very
| much solid so perhaps from context we can choose infer
| that they mean "non-mechanical" and not "made of
| semiconductors" rather than getting wrapped up in
| pedantry.
|
| > And further, no one calls, Crystal resonators "solid
| state" for marketing purposes, which is all that's going
| on here.
|
| Yeah, a company is trying to communicate the benefits of
| their product using words that convey them i.e. HDD->SSD,
| fan->AirJet. We can shake our fists at the sky in
| righteous anger or we can acknowledge that there isn't
| really any harm to using the terms that evoke the right
| meaning for most people in a new context.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| It's not pedantry to call things what they are.
|
| A crystal and this cooler - have moving parts. And don't
| fit even a laissez-faire definition.
| enragedcacti wrote:
| so does a MEMS if that's the definition were going with.
| CyberDildonics wrote:
| I'm with you, technically all heat is vibration of atoms
| so nothing is really solid state.
| pengaru wrote:
| > I feel like we've reached the all too common HN cliche
| of having to address that words have multiple meanings
| and those meanings change over time
|
| It's not even an HN-specific thing.
|
| Arguing semantics is a time-honored method for derailing
| discussions. A sort of quasi-bikeshedding, except more
| often done in bad faith for creating a winnable meta-
| argument by someone who otherwise has nothing useful to
| say about (or was losing a debate of) the actual
| underlying subject.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Frore is claiming that you could slap two AirJet Minis in a Steam
| Deck and that it'd cut down on the noise, lower the device skin
| temperature and free up enough space for a bigger battery that'd
| allow for 30% more game time.
|
| https://www.froresystems.com/application/handheld-gaming
|
| I don't think they've actually built a prototype (the PDF and the
| website show off two separate designs) but it seems promising if
| these stop being as expensive as they are currently.
| 6DM wrote:
| I think the use case for this would be ultra thin laptops, this
| could also be a quiet alternative to the current fans loudly
| spinning up.
| seltzered_ wrote:
| I was actually thinking high-end tablet PCs (like the Asus ROG
| Flow Z13, Microsoft surface) where they have thermal
| constraints due to having both a medium-TDP CPU (and GPU) AND a
| large display to backlight.
|
| Tablet setups also can facilitate better keyboards and an eye-
| level screen, as shown by members in
| https://reddit.com/r/ergomobilecomputers
| wil421 wrote:
| It's the reason I love my M1 air so much. No fan and barely any
| heat.
|
| My company issued HP zbook for Software Engineers is very loud
| and pushes lots of heat out. I would love a quieter alternative
| for large Windows laptops.
| CharlesW wrote:
| FWIW, Windows on Parallels is great on my M1 Air.
| rimunroe wrote:
| I'm looking forward to using one of those. My mom's old Dell
| laptop died and she finally made the switch to the new
| MacBook Air. It seems fantastic.
|
| I had the 2015 MacBook. It was an oddball model which afaik
| never got a refresh: it didn't have any active cooling, had a
| 12" screen, a single USB-C port and a headphone jack, and was
| the and the first version of the terrible butterfly keyboard
| (which had to get replaced three times over its life!). I got
| it through my company for half price after an executive had
| gotten it for travel but couldn't get adapters to reliably
| work for presentations. The main things I remember about it
| (other than the terrible keyboard) were that it was
| delightfully portable and quiet, and that I had to consider
| the weather when I was deciding what to do. I haven't lived
| in a place with air conditioning in years, and in the summers
| I'd sometimes have to stop my chronic multitasking and decide
| if I wanted to browse/run other programs, or stream videos.
| On the rare occasions I'd do some programming and needed to
| compile something, I'd open the laptop halfway and put it on
| its side with a fan pointed at the back. I also put it on an
| ice pack on more than one occasion. I've always been
| surprised that condensation didn't kill it.
|
| The new Airs seems like they solidly solve all of my
| complaints with the 2015 MacBook, which means I might finally
| have found a computer which can make me as happy as my
| Fujitsu LifeBook P1510D did. My only quibble might be that
| it's still a smidge larger than what I'd like, but it's a
| minor quibble.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| Yeah, reducing heat output and fan noise should be more of a
| goal for mainstream PC vendors. My ThinkPad X1 Nano is a
| lovely machine... super lightweight, tiny, solidly built,
| decent keyboard and screen, but it starts getting hot and
| spins up its fan with the slightest hint of work. I have to
| keep its CPU throttled by putting it in power saver mode to
| keep its fan off (most of the time), which brings major
| performance tradeoffs.
| JamesAdir wrote:
| Why do we need thinner laptops? You can hardly work on any of
| the current models today, which their almost zero height keys.
| We need better keyboards and not thinner laptops.
| znpy wrote:
| i have mixed feelings about thin&light laptops... i thought i
| wouldn't mind a bit more weight, but after getting a 14"
| macbook pro for work i appreciated my personal x270 (and my
| old T440) so much more.
|
| the macbook pro is crazy heavy.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Weight is a much more useful metric than height for a laptop.
| packetlost wrote:
| Hard disagree. Shorter key travel is a matter of preference.
| I quite like the ultra-short-travel of my laptops even though
| I have half a dozen mechanical keyboards that I use on my
| desktops. It would be nice to have more options, but I'd take
| a thin and light over a chunky laptop any day.
| topikk wrote:
| > You can hardly work on any of the current models today
|
| Tell that to the millions of people who work on them daily
| without issue.
| dietr1ch wrote:
| I'd like if we got to the point where the computer was on the
| back of the monitor so it'd be easier to cool, and then the
| bottom would be dedicated to peripherals, including way
| better keyboards.
| MiddleEndian wrote:
| The Surface Book 2 sort of did this, most of the computer
| was behind the screen, the base only had a keyboard, more
| batteries, and a GPU (which could be disabled so you could
| detach the screen).
|
| It got really hot really fast if you did any graphics/video
| work on it, even more than regular laptops do.
| Zanni wrote:
| We're already there with tablets (Surface, iPad) with
| attached keyboards. Personally, I prefer the bulk and
| weight of the device to be on the table, not propped up,
| but some folks love this configuration.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| If you can make the frame thinner under the keyboard area by
| moving some computing components around to areas that are
| normally housing cooling components, then you can have a
| longer travel distance for the keys. So, not necessarily a
| thinner laptop, but thinner where it would count.
| _a_a_a_ wrote:
| "Talk about thin laptops long enough and people will start
| to buy into it" (A variation on Goebbels' big lie)
|
| I reckon you bought into it.
| JadeNB wrote:
| > "Talk about thin laptops long enough and people will
| start to buy into it" (A variation on Goebbels' big lie)
|
| I think that analogizing persistent marketing propaganda
| to genocidal fascist propaganda is going a bit far.
| gizmo wrote:
| No, the primary use is in dusty industrial environments where
| regular fans get clogged up.
|
| Noise currently is worse than regular fans because it's higher
| pitched.
| Enginerrrd wrote:
| As someone that can hear a lot of "ultrasonic" frequencies, I
| would not assume it would be quiet. Those ultrasonic occupancy
| sensors are TERRIBLE. Your "quiet" laptop might be worse since
| the sound would be continuous instead of loud bursts.
| rimunroe wrote:
| I really wonder about what the impact of having a lot of
| these devices in a house with animals which can hear higher
| frequency ranges would be. Most (all?) rodents, cats, and--to
| a lesser extent--dogs all hear well into the ultrasonic
| range. I don't know if this is the sort of ambient noise that
| they'd habituate to easily or if it would cause constant
| stress.
| noizz wrote:
| You are correct. LTT's coverage mentions that while it's not
| loud, it's a bit unpleasant due to high frequencies. Although
| things might get tweaked with case design probably.
| Regardless, I am super excited about this tech.
| moffkalast wrote:
| After decades of jokes about laptops "lifting off" when
| under load, they will finally sound like a proper jet
| airplane.
| bitwize wrote:
| I still prefer the Apple approach: design a CPU so powerful and
| efficient, it can handle desktop workloads and larger and not
| need active cooling at all.
| jayd16 wrote:
| The higher performing skus are still actively cooled.
| gamblor956 wrote:
| But Apple's Mx chips can't handle desktop workloads without
| active cooling, and are demonstrably worse at workloads that
| are demanding enough to require active cooling.
| Tade0 wrote:
| I think it's less Apple and more TSMC.
|
| Through overzealous cleaning I broke the fans on my Ryzen
| 4800HS laptop but with the right fan-control software even
| that TSMC 7nm CPU operated largely fanless(they only spooled
| up above 80degC, which was rare) until replacements came in
| the mail.
|
| The M1 in the Air is throttled to roughly half the TDP of
| other devices with the same chip, so it's not like you're
| getting all the performance it can offer.
|
| That being said Apple's design is somewhat faster than
| competition using the same lithography.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| > The M1 in the Air is throttled to roughly half the TDP of
| other devices with the same chip, so it's not like you're
| getting all the performance it can offer.
|
| Throttling only kicks in on the M1 Air when the CPU has
| been running full tilt for ~10m. Outside of that it
| performs identically the the regular M1 in a Mac Mini,
| iMac, or 13" MBP.
|
| Even a lot of heavy users rarely keep the CPU pegged for
| that long. Most workloads are instead short and bursty.
| There's stuff like compiling Chromium that'll do it, but
| people who do that regularly should probably be looking at
| something like a 14" M1/M2 Pro MBP instead if portability
| is a priority.
| dimmke wrote:
| I was never into "PC Building", but had a friend who was and
| a few years ago they helped me build out a "Small form
| factor" PC, using this case: https://imgur.com/a/7xLBiC3
|
| The case was designed to have two columns, and one side was
| dedicated to fitting a full sized graphics card. The other
| column was the rest of the computer.
|
| The graphics card had its own fan system, but I also needed a
| fan glued to the CPU and then an extra one at the bottom to
| help spit out exhaust. The thing ran so hot, and the cords
| ended up just jammed into the case where they fit.
|
| I had no experience with building PCs and was amazed I could
| fit a 2TB Hard drive in a tiny little stick on the
| motherboard, whereas X amount of years before, I would have
| had to install a spinning disk, much bigger. Such a huge leap
| forward.
|
| The main reason I wanted this form factor was because the
| perceived elegance of it appealed to me. But it became clear
| to me through the process that "small form factor" for
| enthusiasts is usually more about the challenge of building
| in a tight space. The thing is super loud with the fans and
| runs super hot when using it for gaming, even with a 1080ti
| card.
|
| That's one of the reasons Apple's progress with CPUs is so
| great to me. I don't want the entire industry to move to SoC
| style where everything is soldered to the motherboard, but
| the more efficient you can make the rest of the computer, the
| better cooling system you can design. Just like the M.2 form
| factor for SSDs was a huge leap. But even if you can't
| eliminate the need for active cooling, something like this
| would make things a lot better. I think you'd still have to
| design around where the exhaust blows out though.
|
| I think it'd be better to have the ARM increase in efficiency
| and then maybe combine it with something like this for extra
| powerful models, the way graphics cards are sold with the
| fans attached.
|
| Someday I'd like to be able to upgrade the build and optimize
| it. The dream would be to not have any fans, but some other
| form of active cooling, and for the machine to be basically
| silent, while packing a 3090+ tier graphics card.
| idontwantthis wrote:
| Once this is affordable and proven reliable, why would laptops
| that are not thin and light still exist?
| bick_nyers wrote:
| Structural integrity?
| tempodox wrote:
| But only until we can crumple up our electronics like a
| piece of cloth.
| gambiting wrote:
| I have a work laptop with a 12850HX + 3080Ti and 128GB of ram
| for work - even if you remove all the cooling from it, all
| the components still take a huge amount of space inside. The
| 128GB CAMM module for ram alone is larger than the entire
| motherboard in macbooks. Also the cooling would need to be
| able to deal with ~200W of heat, even solid state cooling
| would be quite large for such an amount of heat.
|
| https://imgur.com/a/L24ATjp
|
| that green module on the right is just ram. And Dell is
| trying to make this the future standard for ram modules in
| laptops. (ignore the dust on fans, I was in the middle of
| cleaning it).
| kylixz wrote:
| What model Dell? Satisfied? We've tried some other Linux
| friendly brands and the quality control has been less than
| stellar.
| gambiting wrote:
| Yeah it's a Dell Precision 7670 - not had any problems
| with it, and it's an absolute beast performance wise.
| corysama wrote:
| Interesting point from the Linus Tech Tips video: A lot of the
| thermal throttling in laptops is based on user comfort (don't
| burn the user) rather than CPU limits. He had a demo of a
| laptop CPU running faster and _hotter_ with this system because
| the body of the laptop was the focus of the cooling.
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