[HN Gopher] Exterminate your desk: How to remove your mouse
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Exterminate your desk: How to remove your mouse
Author : NickBusey
Score : 57 points
Date : 2023-06-01 18:11 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (nickbusey.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (nickbusey.com)
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > I have a designated key on my keyboard to invoke Shortcat. This
| let's me "click" on anything on the screen (or in any menus,
| visible or not).
|
| Oh, that's sweet. Anyone know of a version that would work in a
| Linux-based system?
| bgoated01 wrote:
| Shortcat uses accessibility to provide this feature.
| Unfortunately the current state of Linux accessibility support
| is insufficient for this type of thing, from what I understand.
| el-duderino42 wrote:
| Hmm, so while he was busy optimizing and learning and tweaking
| his keyboard setup, others invent game changing programming
| languages like Go, and then also write text editors that make
| heavy use of the mouse, and of mouse chording:
|
| http://acme.cat-v.org/
|
| So I'm sceptical whether this approach of spending ages on this
| really is that productive, cost-benefit-wise. Usually it doesn't
| stop there, but this optimization becomes obsessive and
| conpulsive too often. Especially if they then also feel like they
| need to advertise for it in blog posts. Just the fact that the
| author thinks a mouse clutters up his desk seems to me like such
| a first world problem and a sign of lack of resilliency for real
| life. And before you know it your entire diet consists of vanilla
| ice cream, you pee in milk bottles that you collect, and you run
| strings through your house to erect borders for germ-free zones.
|
| Besides it decreases compatibility and flexibility. "Oh, I need
| to do some Magic SysRQ shortcut. Oh, my keyboard doesn't have the
| SysRQ key!" ... "Oh, I need to ssh to a box to fix something. Oh,
| I'm so used to my heavily optimized nvim that I can't operate the
| normal vi anymore!" ... "Oh, I need to do some image
| manipulation. Oh, I have to spend 3 days learning and
| troubleshooting some GIMP keyboard shortcuts!" ... "Oh, I need to
| connect to some completely out of date Java Applet based IPMI
| tool. Oh, to attach an iso image to it I need an obscure shortcut
| which I can't do with my keyboard!"
|
| I mean if none of these things ever happen, and one's computer
| life is in such a narrow bubble that one can survive an entire
| year without it, then good for them, but I think for 99% of IT
| professionals it is either not worth it or impossible, and
| therefore irrelevant.
| amelius wrote:
| I'd believe them more if they were an avid user of mousepointer-
| heavy software like Inkscape, KiCad, Gimp, &c.
| StrangeATractor wrote:
| The only problem I have with going mouseless is selecting text
| (for copy/paste) that isn't in a tmux buffer. Copying from a pdf
| or web browser, you're SOL without a mouse. To my knowledge,
| there isn't a way to do this unless the specific application has
| this functionality.
|
| You might be able to address this through the WM, which would be
| a fantastic accesibility feature.
| gtirloni wrote:
| I want to experiment with a tablet and pen to replace the mouse.
| My arm hurts too much with the mouse currently. Anyone have
| experience with that?
| korse wrote:
| I tried this for a few years in a work environment. Wacom
| tablet with a OpenSuse box from which I did a whole lot of work
| in the terminal and via RDP.
|
| It was really nice, however the pen was a bust for me. It ended
| up being a really large multi-touch/gesture surface and the pen
| got lost somewhere along the way. Never replaced it and never
| looked back, other than being a bit bothered that I don't know
| where it went.
| stevebmark wrote:
| It's funny he mentions RSI, using a mechanical keyboard with
| greater key travel distance is worse for RSI than a flat low
| travel keyboard. The mouse is also much more efficient than the
| keyboard for many tasks, including in Vim. Reaching for the mouse
| doesn't affect the muscles related to RSI. In fact, for RSI, I'd
| say ditch Vim to avoid having to type constantly, since it's just
| a text editor, and use an IDE which gives you more powerful and
| automatic coding abilities.
| throwaway675309 wrote:
| It actually depends. The type of keyboard is not necessarily as
| important as the manner in which you depress the keys. RSI is
| usually caused by performing an action that isolates a muscular
| movement.
|
| So for example, you might have a mechanical keyboard which may
| have a longer vertical travel, but if you depress the keys
| through the usage of the weight of the arm and let gravity do
| some of the work, you might be able to ameliorate some of the
| potential causes of RSI.
|
| Source: studied ergonomics including the Alexander technique
| and Taubman for piano, some of which applies to computer
| keyboards.
| helmholtz wrote:
| My god, thank you! Why don't people talk more about key travel?
| I've had many types of keyboards. Split, tented, columnar
| layout. The one that does the best for me is a keychron low
| profile ten-keyless. Just because of the lower travel distance.
|
| Hundred percent agree with the rest of your comment too. 'Vary
| it up' is the key to avoiding RSI. Almost a tautological point.
| porkbeer wrote:
| I still low key think the GUI is a crutch for less savvy users
| and inhibits professional use of most interfaces. There is use
| for analog input, but I often wonder if rotary encoders and
| sliders might be more intuitive than scroll bars and arrow keys
| for most uses. That said for some tasks the mouse is quite nice,
| and it will always have a place on my desk.
| xfitm3 wrote:
| CLI will always be superior
| zokier wrote:
| Gui!=mouse based!=wimp
| jfengel wrote:
| I have no trouble thinking of myself as a "less savvy user".
|
| I've been a professional programmer for nearly four decades.
| But when I'm not programming, I just want the computer to do
| things for me. If I can solve a problem by clicking a mouse (or
| pushing a touch screen) rather than remembering syntax, I'm all
| for it.
|
| I'm happy to have a crutch. I suppose I could limp along on my
| broken leg instead, but why would I?
| JohnFen wrote:
| I like having a pointing device, but I strongly prefer a
| trackball over a mouse or touchpad.
|
| That said...
|
| > I often wonder if rotary encoders and sliders might be more
| intuitive than scroll bars and arrow keys for most uses.
|
| I use a macro pad that includes a couple of rotary encoders
| along with the keys. I find them extremely useful, especially
| for scrolling. You should give one a try!
| NickBusey wrote:
| My previously favorite keyboard, Das Keyboard, has a rotary
| encoder for the volume control, and it's fantastic. I agree
| that sliders and encoders could/should be used more. There are
| plenty of great MIDI devices out there that offer them, I
| should play around with some of them for day to day stuff like
| this rather than just music.
| lesona wrote:
| Previously favorite? I'm looking for something to replace my
| current KB, and I was wondering what your current favorite
| is/why you like it better than Das keyboard.
| NickBusey wrote:
| Current favorite is the UHK, linked in the article. Main
| reason is the split, secondary reason is the firmware for
| things like the mouse keys and custom layers.
| swah wrote:
| Same. The devices to test this are very cheap over at
| Aliexpress, or maybe Keebmonkey offerings if you want
| something a little better
| https://www.keebmonkey.com/products/megalodon-triple-knob-
| ma...
|
| I wonder if I would get used to using a single key for each
| app versus Alt-tabbing. I believe this is the main cause of
| my left wrist pain.
| ilyt wrote:
| > I wonder if I would get used to using a single key for
| each app versus Alt-tabbing. I believe this is the main
| cause of my left wrist pain.
|
| I use that kind of setup (kinda) in i3, it is great. It's
| not one app per key, but one keybind per virtual desktop
| but I have i3 set up that apps autostart and gets placed
| always on same desktop
|
| So going to IDE is always caps+4 (I rebounded caps to act
| as modifier), mail client is caps+F2 etc.
|
| Then few keybinds to move stuff around for those 2% of
| cases where I need apps on different desktops than usual.
| piyh wrote:
| It's not a crutch, it's the main instrument of discoverability
| for unfamiliar UIs. By volume, 99.999% of all software is
| unfamiliar to you.
|
| Microsoft Word is not a crutched version of VIM.
| msla wrote:
| > Microsoft Word is not a crutched version of VIM.
|
| No, but Notepad is.
|
| Word is a word processor. Vim is a text editor. They're not
| the same thing, and they're not interchangeable.
| zokier wrote:
| Web is the achilles heel for mouseless environment. And with the
| rise of browser webgpu based UIs, trying to work around the issue
| with extensions is increasingly futile. Mousekeys can work as a
| crutch, but I doubt their convenience for anything but last
| resort use.
| jamespullar wrote:
| I'm an avid user of Tridactyl for Firefox. It does have some
| issues with complex UIs, but for the most part is very
| functional. Using many common vim motions for navigation and
| interacting with links is great, especially when I'm working
| undocked with my laptop.
| rijoja wrote:
| Vimium exists for chrome, as well.
| OGWhales wrote:
| Semi-related rant titled "Almost everything on computers is
| perceptually slower than it was in 1983":
| https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/927593460642615296
|
| It's about the way software is designed around having a mouse,
| even when it doesn't make sense.
| charlie0 wrote:
| I wish way more websites used the / or ctrl+k to bring up
| autocomplete menus like the Laravel or Tailwind websites.
| Iuz wrote:
| I have been using keynav (https://github.com/jordansissel/keynav)
| for convenience for a while now, but still pick the mouse up for
| selecting text outside of the terminal since dragging is bugged.
| korse wrote:
| Nice UHK. I've had one for years and don't use a mouse anymore
| either (on my bench-top computers). I have it hooked into a kvm
| switch controlling a handful of *nix machines. I still use a
| mouse on my windows gaming PC for reasons.
|
| Interestingly enough, I ditched the touchpoint add-on too, as it
| really wasn't getting any use.
|
| I'd really recommend the UHK to people who don't mind the price
| and want the benefits of custom keyboards without having to build
| on from scratch. I'm a hardware guy but have all sorts of other
| things I'd rather do than assemble a keyboard over a weekend.
| Delivery was hella slow though...
| jszymborski wrote:
| Anyone have a Linux alternative for the Mousekey app in the
| article?
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| keynav can do that (both that exact version and a slightly
| different default mode)
| NickBusey wrote:
| The mouse keys specifically are part of the keyboard firmware.
| So those would work in linux. For window management, i3 is a
| common one. Shortcat is the only one I haven't found a linux
| alternative for.
| bluGill wrote:
| > but takes more time than you think, and definitely slows me
| down.
|
| Are you sure? I mean have you done a real test with an
| independent observer using a stopwatch? Back in the 1980s Apple
| did run those tests and were able to setup many situations where
| an experience keyboard user was still faster with a mouse - but
| they all claimed to be faster with the keyboard. Now to some
| extent they were gaming the tests (not all situations where
| realistic), but enough were that we can confidently say that the
| mouse often is faster even when it feels slower.
| JohnFen wrote:
| In my view, whether or not you're _actually_ faster isn 't
| nearly as important as whether or not you _feel_ faster.
|
| Feeling faster means closer to a flow state, and so more
| productive. Actually faster does not automatically translate to
| increased productivity.
|
| In the end, I think the best method is the method that the
| individual is most comfortable with.
| moondev wrote:
| Other options to remove the mouse:
|
| https://tex.com.tw/products/shura-diy-type?variant=428450353...
|
| https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/docs/feature...
| huy-nguyen wrote:
| Does anyone have experience with both Shortcat
| (https://shortcat.app/) and Homerow (https://www.homerow.app/) to
| make a comparison?
| m463 wrote:
| wow, that keyboard looks painful.
|
| Really, why would you use a hard wooden wrist rest? what a mess.
|
| I had trouble with my palms years ago, and a soft wrist rest was
| the solution.
|
| Your palms don't have high pressure points, the weight is spread
| out. This means the system of strings and pulleys from your
| muscles in your arms that control your fingers can function well,
| and long-term.
|
| The skin slides across soft material.
|
| Your wrists are warm.
|
| and of course they are elevated and positioned well.
| Dudester230601 wrote:
| [flagged]
| firstSpeaker wrote:
| I am using similar setup, without the touch module. I will
| never return to my usual TKL keyboard considering the comfort
| that I get using the UHK. I am hoping at some point the Naya
| keyboard is released so I can have a good trackball available
| as well.
| inconceivable wrote:
| i think i'm going to trust the person who uses the rest to
| determine what's comfortable for them.
|
| many people don't have a problem with the material hardness of
| the rest, they just need elevation. also fabric can get
| disgusting after a while.
| Tuckerism wrote:
| I was really surprised at how much more comfortable my wooden
| wrist rest is. As another user pointed out, getting the
| elevation all I needed. Definitely one of my favorite upgrades
| to my setup (and definitely easier to keep clean).
| m463 wrote:
| Although I realize people don't take unsolicited advice, I
| would still suggest you try it with a nice memory foam wrist
| rest at some time. adjust the level.
|
| I can type for hours and hours this way. It also makes a nice
| elbow rest (although you also shouldn't lean on your elbows
| for hours, can affect your bursa)
| wanderingstan wrote:
| > Moving your hand from the keyboard to the mouse and back, is
| ... a large cause of RSI
|
| Citation needed.
|
| When I had RSI the doctor noted that it was only in my non-mouse
| left hand. They said the moving of my hand between mouse and
| keyboard provided a relief for my hand, and recommended I move my
| non-mouse hand away from the keyboard more often.
| ZseeBrz wrote:
| Around 10yrs ago I started developing RSI in my right hand, I
| guess partly because of the mouse scroll wheel, so I started
| mousing mainly with my left hand, but switched back and forth
| if that was more comfortable. While it solved the main problem,
| still didn't feel as comfortable as I wanted. Now I have the
| perfect solution: standing desk, mechanical TKL-keyboard, and
| two trackballs on each side. I wish Logitech made left-handed
| trackballs, but the left-handed Elecom wireless feels okay and
| looks similar to the MX Ergo
| BasedAnon wrote:
| When I developed bilateral carpal tunnel at 15, my trackpad
| hand was notably worse and it was greatly aggravated by
| trackpad use. The difference was so significant that I only
| bothered having surgery on my trackpad hand (right), I avoided
| surgery on my left so I keep it as my grabbing hand, since the
| pain wasn't nearly as bothersome and switching to programmer
| DVORAK significantly mitigated the pain I was experiencing in
| the first place.
| SebastianKra wrote:
| Ignoring the health concerns, which can be addressed with a
| vertical mouse, I don't think mice are necessarily slow. When
| navigating interfaces that are optimized for visual search,
| translating the area that I'm looking at into a series of keys
| requires more cognitive effort than just clicking it. When
| visually scanning, my I subconsciously move my cursor to the area
| that I'm looking at.
|
| Whether you want to use a mouse or a keyboard depends on the task
| you want to perform and its temporal proximity to other tasks.
| For example, when reading code, you tend to use a mouse wheel and
| visually scan and select references. A mouse would likely be
| faster. When typing, however, your hands are already on the
| keyboard, so VimMotion is faster. Finally, I love hybrid
| operations such as initiating a screenshot using the keyboard and
| selecting the region with the mouse.
|
| Whether interfaces should be designed for keyboards or mice also
| depends on factors such as discoverability, frequency of use, and
| the amount of available operations. Command palettes are amazing,
| but they are less discoverable and restricted in their layout.
| Interestingly, Raycast, _the_ discoverable keyboard-centric app,
| has a mouse-centric settings interface.
|
| Of course, most of us already intuitively know this, but it's
| tempting to drink the keyboard cool-aid. I had a phase where I
| aggressively prioritized the keyboard and was frustrated by
| MacOS's lackluster support for it. My biggest annoyance with the
| mouse was the distance my hands had to travel when switching from
| the keyboard. Removing the numpad helped with this.
| NickBusey wrote:
| The mouse that I ditched in favor of this setup was a vertical
| mouse, I definitely agree that is better than your standard
| variety.
|
| The mouse key layer includes scrolling keys, and I do actually
| have a scroll wheel on the left module which I use a decent bit
| while reading. Best of both worlds IMO.
|
| Of course, to each their own!
| JohnFen wrote:
| > When visually scanning, my I subconsciously move my cursor to
| the area that I'm looking at.
|
| I do this, too, but very consciously. It helps me to focus.
|
| It's also why I tend to hate applications and websites that do
| things in response to merely moving the cursor to a magic spot.
| baggsie wrote:
| I bought a thinkpad keyboard with the red joystick thing when I
| hurt my shoulder - it was only supposed to be temporary but I
| find myself rarely using my mouse. I'm not a great fan of the
| keys (especially compared to Mac keyboard).
| inconceivable wrote:
| those keyboards are great for servers or headless workstations.
| i have one on my thinkstation for the occasional moments where
| i need non-networked access. i have the usb version but they
| also make a wireless one.
| fragmede wrote:
| Yes, "joystick thing"... https://xkcd.com/243/
| xupybd wrote:
| I've played this game before. It's great if you never change what
| you're doing. If you get a new project that requires a new IDE or
| VM solution you spend hours setting things up again. The mouse is
| more flexible and better suited to getting work done.
|
| This seems relevant. https://xkcd.com/1205/
| doix wrote:
| It's the other way around in my opinion. If you learn something
| like vim/i3/cli tools it's relevant for future projects.
|
| If you invest time learning IntelliJ, they'll release an update
| and move everything around. Now you'll be searching frantically
| and clicking randomly until you find where things are.
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