[HN Gopher] Show HN: Discipline.io - Make binding commitments to...
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Show HN: Discipline.io - Make binding commitments to your better
self
Hi HN, It's super hard to quit addicting apps. Existing solutions
are non-binding, and therefore, require constant self-discipline
and vigilance to be effective. Which is ironic, considering the
problem we are trying to solve, is a lack of self-discipline.
There exists a physical solution to this problem, in the form of a
time-locked safe[1]. It's effective for reducing app usage, but
it's cumbersome and inconvenient. Fundamentally, what these lock-
boxes do is impose a real-world cost on breaking your commitment.
It's not impossible to break your commitment, but it would require
destroying the lock-box, and that incurs a cost. I created a
digital version of this, as an app (Android-only). Commitment's are
backed with cash deposits, and the phone API's are used to detect
violations and enforce compliance. No self-reporting required. And
it even works if the monitoring app is uninstalled, or its
background service disabled. An example commitment: Stop using
Tinder, for the next week, or forfeit $20 to the Red Cross charity.
The solution also generalizes to other types of commitments:
- Commit to using an app more (e.g. meditation) - Commit to
visiting a location (e.g. gym) - Commit to making a phone
call (e.g. mom) It's currently only available for Android,
but I'm considering doing an IOS version as well. Hope you like it,
and please share any feedback you might have in the comments! [1]:
https://www.thekitchensafe.com
Author : stri8ted
Score : 67 points
Date : 2023-06-01 15:12 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (discipline.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (discipline.io)
| anonyfox wrote:
| Thats a nice way to make me donate more money to charities I
| guess
| stri8ted wrote:
| Its not a fool proof solution, but the hope is, it should
| significantly reduce the likelihood of breaking your
| commitments.
|
| I was considering supporting anti-charities (e.g. NRA, DNC
| etc..), but I thought that was unnecessarily distracting.
| anonyfox wrote:
| well I am probably kinda the hardcore target group. I can
| clearly spot, articulate and act on problems (like being
| overweight and out of shape). I go deep into the scientific
| (and also pseudo for fun) discussions about anything in the
| process, can roughly understand it, relate that to my
| personal situation, and make absolutely great plans how to
| tackle it.
|
| iE1 (body recomp): calorie counting app, tracking everything
| that goes in, including hydration + sleep, go into an
| optimized sports programme and give it all I got, keep an eye
| on optimal macro/micro, applying social pressure on myself...
| and so on, everything that might have an impact + preplanned
| schedules and optimized convenience factors to do the right
| thing, right from the start. After a few weeks, I just stop
| it. Doing unhealthy stuff again, ignoring all
| tracking/notes/plans/appointments and even handwaive the
| social pressure. Also initial investment (sometimes quite
| significant) = money factor is just something I shrug off in
| that mood.
|
| iE2 (building software): I have a good enough idea, sometimes
| even things I really desperately want for myself. I have a
| vast toolset of mastered tech stacks at my hands I can use
| right away, can setup good implementation plans, start with
| shipping "hello world" to production first (me being a devops
| many years) and iterate quickly. Also include customer
| journeys and marketing key points right off the gate. Code
| written to my personal high standards including full
| testsuites/coverage, clean component libraries, whatever
| fits, and also keeping an eye on security and performance. I
| don't even have to worry much about any expensive
| hosting/operations costs at all at this point. Still after 2
| weeks max, I abandon the project... quite often with a
| working state that actually is good and usable (most MVPs are
| in a worse state, as they should).
|
| Its like no matter what I do, there are zero issues for me to
| research a thing and jumpstart doing it the right (as in:
| best effort research that looks like actually working) way,
| and then just stopping it after some time for no particular
| reason. Somehow my brain just can't be forced for an extended
| amount of time.
|
| Being aware of that, I also tried several things that are
| recommended to build up discipline, from atomic habits of
| different flavors to gratefulnes diaries, so far nothing
| worked. To give you an idea: I am not able to brush my teeth
| every single morning/evening as a man in my 30s, its more
| like 5 out of 7 days roughly. Also I have no attention
| shortages and can comfortably read a full book cover-to-cover
| nonstop, meditate or keep the focus of a full-day meeting on
| track with multiple persons in the room trying to derail.
|
| If someone truly had a solution that works in my case, I'd
| pay a high premium for that with a smiling face. So far, only
| failures, and a hopeless me.
| taway789aaa6 wrote:
| You may want to look into being diagnosed with adult ADHD
| ghotli wrote:
| You sound a lot like me, which drove me to log in and
| reply. Here's what works for me these days and tbh I'm
| quite pleased with the results. I will admit that the
| circumstances under which I started this I felt very
| motivated to complete this.
|
| Here's my advice, it's simple. Keep a streak in Duolingo,
| it'll remind you. I like the Android widget too. I do maybe
| one minute of work daily to keep my streak and at least for
| me it's the cornerstone habit I've then added other stuff
| over time. Once I had a small streak built up I went to the
| gym every day to either walk or run and when I ran I just
| did exactly what the couch to 5k app told me to do. When I
| was walking, I did duolingo. Self reinforcing.
|
| Being able to run 3 5k's a week by the last week I no
| longer have problems basically exactly like you described.
| Or if I do, it's not nearly as egregious as it once was.
| The only trick for me at least was to just do exactly what
| I was told. It ramps up and I just never stopped before I
| was told to.
|
| Key takeaway is that your body and brain are malleable and
| will adapt. Hope this or something like it helps!
| anonyfox wrote:
| I really know what u mean (and had like 2 weeks of
| Duolingo streaks several times) - but the sheer concept
| of streaks has no power over my brain somehow, like I
| couldn't care less about breaking it. What you did sounds
| like ,,keystone habits", where you get something simple
| running consistently and try to expand from there - but I
| really struggle with that initial step every single time,
| no keystone found so far :-(
| ghotli wrote:
| Agreed and understood. I'll argue that the more key
| change came from the running app than the keystone habit.
| Be kind to yourself and try again each day :)
| ekanes wrote:
| You seem like a very interesting person!
|
| > Also I have no attention shortages and can comfortably
| read a full book cover-to-cover nonstop, meditate or keep
| the focus of a full-day meeting on track with multiple
| persons in the room trying to derail.
|
| In mentioning this, it sounds like you're addressing that
| it's probably not adhd, but I'd gently mention that these
| don't disqualify adhd quite as much as you might think.
|
| I'm not 100% sure what you mean by no attention shortages,
| but the desire for novelty within _systems_ and not just
| any given moment (eg. I can start a system but always lose
| it) is common for many of us Now kids. :)
|
| Reading a book cover to cover is an example of hyperfocus,
| and adhd trait.
|
| Crushing a full day of meetings with many people trying to
| derail is actually an adhd superpower imho. It's that when
| we're BORED we're super distractable, but when we're
| putting out fires, and it's go go go we can do very well.
|
| I don't know you well, and I'm also working on making tools
| for this space (super early tho) but I'd recommend perhaps
| getting tested, because the right medication changes
| peoples LIVES. Search reddit for stories. Days when I'm on
| adderall vs not are hugely different. Good luck to you and
| thanks for sharing.
| anonyfox wrote:
| Absolutely right what you pointed out! Having said that,
| I also can keep focus on really boring days, like I never
| head an issue in school/university with being easily
| going into squirrel mode or detractability. But will
| definitely check out these stories, thanks!
| ishjoh wrote:
| I'm curious about example 1. It sounds like you had all the
| right things in place so I have a few questions for you:
|
| 1. Were you just so hungry that you didn't want to stick
| with it anymore? What was your daily calorie deficit?
|
| 2. Did you enjoy your sports program or was it a chore to
| do?
| anonyfox wrote:
| 1) I am pre-trained in fasting extended amounts of time
| and actually enjoy it, being hungry wasn't the problem.
| but sometimes (quite often for me unfortunately) adult
| life happens, and I just have to do something like eating
| business lunch with a client or some holiday feast with
| the family. A few times of these things happening
| (sometimes even within 1 week) and after a while I just
| think "fuck it". The only thing I actually can keep for
| many months now is going meatless, but this was a great
| body response feeling within few days and just staying
| noticeably good, including appetite changes over time I
| spotted (like preference for fresh vegetables and fruits
| I never had before) as well as a disgust now to kill/eat
| animals, so this is now a natural body reaction on a
| lower level.
|
| 2) the usual dopamine loop seemed to work for me here,
| like the workout itself was intense (nearly fainting
| after lifting sometimes), feeling a small high
| afterwards, and even enjoyed the DOMS 2 days after
| proudly, also helped noticeably in stress reduction to
| move (accumulated over sets) a few tons of iron. had a
| kind of personal coach (even though shared with others
| when I didn't need him) and felt well in my gym
| environment - everything on point. After a while, I
| stopped going for no particular reason.
| [deleted]
| asciii wrote:
| On the other hand, I think it's a great way to start a positive
| habit. Sure, maybe, one can fail on the first try but these
| offset the long run mindful activities to achieve more
| discipline.
|
| I'm not an expert or anything at this but I have appreciated
| the Atomic Habits book where switching your brain's focus to
| trying something for 5 minutes eventually overcomes the barrier
| to not doing it.
| sirjaz wrote:
| You need to make a Windows version of the app. More Windows
| devices than all iOS and MacOS devices put together.
| goodpoint wrote:
| I commit to not using yet another app.
| dhruvkaran wrote:
| Does it allow bitcoin lightning channels for commitments?
| stri8ted wrote:
| I was initially thinking about doing it crypto-based, but that
| makes onboarding and the UX more challenging. A fee-less
| solution like LN could make sense.
| purerandomness wrote:
| This sounds like something Beeminder [1] is doing since 2011,
| have you heard of them?
|
| They have a huge community and tools ecosystem.
|
| You might also want to check the Awesome List "Quantified Self"
| [2] if you like these kind of tools.
|
| [1] https://www.beeminder.com/overview
|
| [2] https://github.com/woop/awesome-quantified-self
| stri8ted wrote:
| Yep. The key difference is, the deposit here is taken before
| the commitment is resolved. And there is no self-reporting
| needed. So its 100% fire and forget.
| suketk wrote:
| As a peer[1] in the habit-building space, there are so many
| things I love about this:
|
| * No self-reporting. I can attest this a huge source of friction
| for users.
|
| * Aligned business model. I also donate 100% of penalties to
| charity. It's shocking how many accountability apps are
| incentivized for you to fail.
|
| * External accountability. It's an underrated tool and I'm glad
| it's gaining more recognition.
|
| However, I think there's also such a thing as _too much_
| accountability. Life comes in the way and people won 't always
| hit their goals. When you penalize failure, you penalize trying.
| Instead, it's better to encourage learning from failure.
|
| That's why I impose _compassionate accountability_. You 're only
| required to check in on your goals, not succeed at them. This
| way, you can fight through the problem instead of giving up the
| moment you fail.
|
| Here's a recent example from Habit Gym that illustrates this
| quite well. It's a user trying to quit smoking - they start off
| slow, but pick up momentum quickly because they learned from
| their mistakes. https://i.imgur.com/1eiZEMy.png
|
| Just my two cents! Good luck with your app!
|
| [1] https://www.thehabitgym.com/programs/daily
| kosciCZ wrote:
| Hey, is there a problem with accepting new registrations (and
| joining the waitlist)? I get "The change you wanted was
| rejected." for anything I try to submit.
| suketk wrote:
| I don't think so, there have been registrations since your
| comment. If you're still having trouble, feel free to email
| me@suketk.com.
| balaji1 wrote:
| just today I had an idea - pick up the book I'm reading
| whenever I hit HN or other SM. A book is just a better
| distraction (:
|
| Anyway, good luck to all trying to fight distractions!
| underyx wrote:
| The incumbent in this space is https://www.beeminder.com where
| the specific use case shown here about screen time can be
| configured with e.g. their RescueTime integration. Beeminder
| however just take your money for themselves as opposed to giving
| it to charity. They claim people would otherwise be more prone to
| giving up on their goals, thinking "oh well, the money is going
| to charity anyway so I'm doing a good thing by breaking my
| commitment". The opposite approach would be setting it up so the
| money goes to an organization whose goals you disagree with.
| kokanee wrote:
| Another incumbent is https://gofuckingdoit.com by the
| bootstrapping cult icon Pieter Levels.
| ekanes wrote:
| I love the simplicity and interface, but it seems unclear
| where the money goes. I can't find a FAQ.
| stri8ted wrote:
| I do hear that. But it seems to me, having the company take the
| deposit creates perverse incentives, e.g. the company is
| basically betting on the user breaking their commitment.
|
| A key difference also is, by requiring the deposit before
| resolving the commitment, it removes the escape hatch of just
| canceling your credit-card. It also generalizes to any app on
| the platform.
|
| I was considering supporting anti-charities (e.g. NRA, DNC
| etc..), but I thought that was unnecessarily distracting.
| 1123581321 wrote:
| While Beeminder does collect when you fail, they make their
| money from people maintaining premium subscriptions for custom
| goals and other features. Curiously, one of the premium
| features is the ability to skip over the small penalties and
| start at a financial commitment that's too painful for you to
| let happen. Another premium feature is that some of the money
| goes to charity.
|
| They're dancing with perversity but they make so much more
| money if their system works for you for a long time.
| OJFord wrote:
| > The opposite approach would be setting it up so the money
| goes to an organization whose goals you disagree with.
|
| That's hilarious, but could be really dark & depressing!
| pictur wrote:
| weird. did this idea come out of a joke among friends?
| drewda wrote:
| See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic
| candiddevmike wrote:
| For folks with any kind of OCD or negative self talk, this kind
| of app would be hell for them. The last thing they need is a real
| consequence for not doing something correctly. Learning to accept
| that using these apps will happen and understanding why you want
| to use these apps is may be more valuable.
| teeray wrote:
| I love that you explicitly call out how you make money and that
| it is not a percentage of deposits. Being up-front about that is
| refreshing.
|
| Suggestion: a large portion of folks looking to use this app
| would like to do so to achieve fitness goals. The simplest
| possible integration with HealthKit may be closing your exercise
| rings. It's general enough to not require integrating with
| specific vendor APIs, but is still fairly difficult to fake it.
| It may be a good MVP goal.
| stri8ted wrote:
| Agreed re fitness tracking. I have been thinking about that.
| sledgehammers wrote:
| >is a lack of self-discipline
|
| Hmm, maybe there is something to say about the addiction
| capitalism??
|
| You cannot place the blame on individual here. This is a societal
| level problem. This is a failure of democracy to recognize and
| address the problem. Greed and bad incentives are the problems,
| again. They are causing massive destruction, again.
| stri8ted wrote:
| I think its more about a mismatch between our evolutionary
| past, and the modern environment. No different from junk food.
| Stimuli that would be adaptive in our prehistoric environment,
| is no longer so, but still triggers the same reward mechanisms.
| e.g. Seeing pictures of people on a social media app.
| sledgehammers wrote:
| Yeah, we need a bigger fix.
|
| Your work definitely has a part to play, to help people get
| rid of the addiction. So I'm definitely supportive - let's
| just keep the blame where it belongs, so it can be fixed at
| the core. :)
| dumpsterlid wrote:
| [dead]
| sledgehammers wrote:
| Zuckerberg et al downvoting an inconvenient truth? ;) Mark:
| fuck you.
| mparnisari wrote:
| So we need another app to quit an app? :P
| kylecazar wrote:
| I really like the idea.
|
| Sadly -- things like this don't seem to work for me. I either
| have the discipline to hold myself to something, or I just figure
| it wasn't that important to me after all.
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