[HN Gopher] Scientists need to get high
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Scientists need to get high
Author : thx-2718
Score : 67 points
Date : 2023-06-01 14:55 UTC (8 hours ago)
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| outside1234 wrote:
| Sounds like rationalization for the next Fentanyl outbreak
| coffeebeqn wrote:
| Psychedelics aren't addictive and most you can not take
| multiple days in a row
| canadiantim wrote:
| We need a better science for sharing experiences. Science is
| great for sharing experiments where we can replicate the
| conditions in the outside world. But it's terrible for sharing
| experiences because they are harder to share in a replicable way,
| yet that's where some of the most important insights are.
| nine_k wrote:
| Experiences can be hard / impossible to share in principle:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia
|
| Humans do need a better language to describe certain areas of
| experience though, states of mind and emotions. Poetic language
| is a good approximation, but it uses various quirks and
| undocumented properties of the "normal" language to get its
| point across. It's a poor fit even for philosophy, to say
| nothing of scientific research.
| DueDilligence wrote:
| [dead]
| jacooper wrote:
| [flagged]
| capableweb wrote:
| In order to facilitate some sort of discussion rather than
| knee-jerk reactions, why not?
| NickC25 wrote:
| All for it.
|
| LSD and other similar substances can offer an incredible insight
| to people who are equipped to handle it. Such substances create
| new pathways in your brain and increase neuroplasticity.
|
| It's not the one-stop solution to everyone's problems and should
| NOT be treated as such (far from it!), but it does offer
| tremendous perspective and insight to those who know what they're
| getting into.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| One of the issues is that LSD also simulates the feeling of
| insight. How many trip reports mention "finding the solution to
| everyone's problems" and "forgetting" it upon sobering? (They
| didn't forget, they never had it, the LSD simulated having
| it...)
|
| Maybe it's a better cultural value for our truth seeking groups
| to avoid psychedelics and other hallucinogens.
| ethanbond wrote:
| I've never read any trip report including a claim like that.
|
| Lots of people claim to have solved a problem _they_ have,
| and some of these solutions end up being forgotten, bad, or
| authentically and positively life-changing.
|
| Hard to draw conclusions from this landscape (which is why
| scientists should be experimenting with them).
| joenot443 wrote:
| In my experience, the "simulated insight" (and I agree, that
| is roughly what I'd call it) ends up being something more
| attune to "I need to take better care of my apartment" or
| "Revolver truly is their best album" or more recently, "I
| need to learn to write shaders." The insights one experiences
| are personal, whether or not they're actually beneficial to
| the waking self.
|
| I haven't met anyone who's seriously felt they'd "discovered"
| or solved anything serious while tripping. I know people
| who've left relationships or changed career paths, so as with
| nearly anything psychoactive, YMMV.
| chaps wrote:
| Have you ever done psychedelics?
| nathan_compton wrote:
| I've done psychedelics of many types and I find the so-
| called "insights" they offer to be banal in the extreme.
| chaps wrote:
| Not exactly going to disagree with you there. Just felt
| it was an important question to ask considering the
| rigidity of their comment.
| nathan_compton wrote:
| I'm not the original reply, by the way. I think
| psychedelics can be fun and extremely
| liberating/relaxing. But they have not given me any
| significant personal, scientific, literary or other
| insights.
| grugagag wrote:
| I find that whatever insights, they're personal. But
| their general effect humbling our egos. I find that to be
| of great use in a selfish narcissistic society we're
| living in. I remember after having an LSD trip with good
| personal insights I got home and had cathartic session of
| sobbing. It felt absolutely great to do something I
| rarely do. Last time I did this was more than 15 years
| ago and feel that I'm still drawing some essence from
| this experience. Perhaps if I find myself stuck or at
| crossroads I'll give it another go.
| galleywest200 wrote:
| I am not sure if LSD use in college gave me any real
| insights, but it did leave me with a permanent recognition of
| my internal thought processes. Becoming acutely aware of them
| essentially. Instead of two layers (internal thoughts then
| observed reality) there were three (myself, internal
| thoughts, then observed reality).
| rainclouds wrote:
| Spot on. My ability to separate myself from an issue and
| view it as a 3rd party came around this.
|
| Sometimes you had separate yourself pretty far from
| something to be able absorb and understand an issue, and
| LSD can cause that space.
|
| I see the space, the separating, as the benefit. Gave new
| prospective.
| pengaru wrote:
| > One of the issues is that LSD also simulates the feeling of
| insight. How many trip reports mention "finding the solution
| to everyone's problems" and "forgetting" it upon sobering?
| (They didn't forget, they never had it, the LSD simulated
| having it...)
|
| Are you sure you're not confusing LSD with THC? What you're
| describing is well known as "stoner epiphanies"...
| _a_a_a_ wrote:
| Pls post (say) 3 examples of <<"finding the solution to
| everyone's problems" and "forgetting" it upon sobering?>>
|
| I'm only aware of it happening a NOx trip in the 1800's
|
| > Maybe it's a better cultural value for our truth seeking
| groups to avoid psychedelics and other hallucinogens
|
| So. You're afraid of them then. Otherwise you'd post some
| actual evidence.
| [deleted]
| NickC25 wrote:
| It's important to have an experienced tripper with you so
| that when you have a solution, someone can write it down if
| you're unable to. Or a voice reorder, or some way of
| capturing your insight.
|
| Has worked every time for me.
| bitlax wrote:
| [flagged]
| quickthrowman wrote:
| > Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological
| battle. That tramples curiosity.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| You can argue that psychedelics are unsafe without resorting
| to bringing up ideological COVID culture war stuff.
| skyyler wrote:
| Can you restate your position in a way that doesn't seem to
| be a battle in the ongoing Culture War?
| BasedAnon wrote:
| and it can also be a one-way ticket to schizoville
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| Unfortunately, for people who are predisposed, going away to
| college or falling in love can also trigger a psychotic
| break. I don't think we would tell people not to do those
| things though.
| BasedAnon wrote:
| This is like equating swimming in the middle of the
| atlantic with swimming at your local leisure center.
| NickC25 wrote:
| When not done under proper set & setting, yeah.
|
| If you're around people you trust, in a controlled
| environment, you're not likely to develop schizophrenia.
|
| If you just decide randomly to trip in an unknown environment
| with people you're not comfortable around, yeah, it's going
| to be a wild ride and you might not ever truly get off it
| even after the stuff wears off completely.
| BasedAnon wrote:
| > When not done under proper set & setting, yeah.
|
| Sorry but this is the biggest load of garbage. You can do
| everything right, and still come away with trauma and psych
| issues. It's like writing randomly to memory from ring 0
| and hoping you don't irreversibly wreck your install.
| seabird wrote:
| Things can just go bad, no matter how hard you try. There
| is always some level of risk involved, especially if you
| have a family or personal history of mental illness, in
| which case it's advisable to not fuck with it at all. "Set
| and setting" doesn't paper over everything.
| aaomidi wrote:
| Isn't this generally the case for everything?
|
| Things can go bad in any experience.
|
| You can go zip lining and things can go bad. You can go
| through any experience and can be left with various
| degrees of physical and mental damage.
|
| Does that mean we shouldn't do anything?
| BasedAnon wrote:
| Risks are not created equal.
| aaomidi wrote:
| Never implied they are but neither are the rewards.
| seabird wrote:
| The risk of psychedelic drugs is more comparable to
| motorsports, the more involved action sports, heavy
| equipment operation, etc. and your average person would
| be very wary of participating in these even though there
| are plenty of risk mitigations for these activities.
|
| I'm not saying you shouldn't do drugs. I'm saying that
| many of them require way more respect than most people
| realize they need to give them, and trying to downplay
| that is not good. I can tell you from personal experience
| that it's easy to get yourself and people you care about
| in dangerous places.
| chrisldgk wrote:
| Speak for yourself, I'd hop into (and probably crash) a
| formula 1 car no questions asked
| hellotomyrars wrote:
| To be fair it's not a good comparison. An F1 car is , all
| things considered, an incredibly safe place to be in.
|
| Certainly safer than your average road car in most
| circumstances.
| seabird wrote:
| I would too, but most people get nervous revving their
| car past 4k.
| DueDilligence wrote:
| [dead]
| Georgelemental wrote:
| Not everyone reacts the same way to psychedelics. One person
| might have a "mind-opening experience" for an hour and then be
| fine, another might suffer from permanent vision problems or
| worse.
| Wonnk13 wrote:
| I completely agree, but this stuff is still illegal in most of
| the United States. What am I supposed to do, just walk up to
| someone "how do you do fellow kids, I'd like to purchase one
| LSD".
| belfalas wrote:
| If you live in San Francisco, simply walk up and down Haight
| for a while (near Ashbury, of course). Look for "street
| characters" - every once in a while as one of them passes you,
| they'll quickly call out "hey man, wanna buy shrooms?" and keep
| walking. The expectation is that if you want to buy you'll go
| shoulder tap them.
| beerpls wrote:
| Stop living your life under the ruse that is our
| government/capitalist elites and start living it for yourself
|
| The drugs will come naturally after that (if you want them to)
| greyface- wrote:
| For psilocybin: learn what mushrooms grow in your area and how
| to identify them, go for a walk, keep your eyes open.
| p_j_w wrote:
| Alternatively, grow them yourself.
| capableweb wrote:
| This wasn't what I imagined myself doing this morning, but here
| is a shortened step-by-step guide how to acquire psychedelics
| as an adult:
|
| - Get Tor browser and find one of the various marketplaces,
| purchase small samples and send part of the sample to one of
| the various test labs that can confirm the quality
|
| OR
|
| - Find a community where people are likely to have some sort of
| experience with psychedelics, like self-improvement groups,
| hacker spaces or just visit raves
|
| - Start talking with a person who could maybe possibly have
| done psychedelics at one point or another. Don't ask them
| outright about buying, but starts a conversation about your
| curiosity around psychedelics for self-help.
|
| - If they reciprocate, you can at one point of the conversation
| ask them kindly if they happen to know anyone who can sell to
| you. If they say no, just move on with the conversation as to
| not make anything awkward for either of you
|
| - Repeat until you find someone, you'll find someone for sure,
| in either of the groups mentioned before.
| TrainedMonkey wrote:
| It's amazing how much of how-to-get-drugs-advice is be social
| and talk to people. Props for including the technical
| solution too!
| capableweb wrote:
| Hah, true :) I think "talk to others" is often a solution
| that is overlooked and is very powerful. Probably the best
| parts of my life wouldn't be possible if I didn't force
| myself to socialize with others, even if it's difficult and
| I don't want to do it until after the socialization is done
| then I feel good about it.
| toast0 wrote:
| Ugh, even Power Magazine told us "talk to everyone", but
| I'd rather not. :P
| galaxyLogic wrote:
| > Start talking with a person who could maybe possibly have
| done psychedelics
|
| Clue: If they are a guy with long hair. Or if they are a gal
| they might have flowers in their hair
| pessimizer wrote:
| Better clue: if you're friendly with them and they've
| talked about doing psychedelics.
| swores wrote:
| Having known a few people of those two physical
| descriptions, and quite a few people who've used
| psychedelics, in my small sample set you'd be looking at
| the wrong people.
|
| Change "long hair male" to "dreadlocks on a white male" and
| you'd have a point, but the majority of long-haired men
| I've known either wouldn't do drugs or are into non-
| psychedelics.
|
| And having spent a lot of time in clubs/festivals/house
| parties around drug use, of the many many users and dealers
| of psychedelics I've met... I don't think I could narrow
| down a single "look" that's more, or less, likely than any
| other.
|
| On the other hand, a) there is "a look" to facial
| expressions (not dissimilar to a weed "stoned" or amazed
| expression) that can be quite recognisable of somebody
| being under the influence - aided by things like super wide
| pupils and b) there are activities - such as being in a
| place where people are dancing to electronic music of some
| genre - where plenty of people use psychedelics and those
| faces can often be seen (though easily confused with
| expressions caused by other classes of drug).
| capableweb wrote:
| I'd probably go by more of non-visual characteristics
| (openness, uncommon worldviews, unusually emphatic and so
| on) rather than just visual clues, but YMMV
| toast0 wrote:
| It's hard to identify people to start talking to with
| those characteristics, as many of them are only apparent
| after you're in conversation.
| explaininjs wrote:
| A friend of mine named Craig has a List of places you might
| find such items.
|
| Definitely always remember test kits are your friend.
| briffle wrote:
| Take a vacation to Oregon...
| rocketbop wrote:
| Telegram is a good place to order drugs in many cities. Just
| look for groups near you and there's a good chance you'll find
| an active group advertising their warez. You can DM them and
| likely they'll deliver, cash on delivery.
| mahnen wrote:
| Unrelated -> Why astronomers like to get high
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4T94Rt1tK0
| doc_gunthrop wrote:
| Reminds me of how Carl Sagan wrote about his experiences with
| cannabis usage (under the pseudonym Mr. X, as to avoid the social
| stigma associated with it at the time).
| pie420 wrote:
| The final frontier
| pookha wrote:
| If you're predisposed to schizophrenia, pure bi-polar or other
| mental health issues you probably shouldn't be tripping balls on
| LSD (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6870484/) or taking THC at
| high levels
| (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2424288/). Seems to
| be a major risk.
| hellotomyrars wrote:
| I am bipolar and can not tolerate these substances. It is very
| bad for me.
|
| I'm happy to let people enjoy them but it is not something I
| can do. It does bother me when people say that they're all
| harmless with no problems though. As with all things there are
| adverse reactions and it's irresponsible to claim otherwise. I
| don't advocate prohibition to be clear, just actual truth and
| honesty.
| Spivak wrote:
| Also there is a (small) risk that you can't really check for in
| advance that lsd will just give you tinnitus, ask me how I
| know. I'm told it might go away in about a year.
| TheLoafOfBread wrote:
| Somebody was watching Fringe
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fringe_(TV_series)
| mcculley wrote:
| I am always amused that the discourse around LSD uses the term
| "microdosing". We know that tiny doses can harm and hurt humans.
| Claiming that many uses are "microdoses" is rationalization.
|
| Edit: I meant to say "harm and help", not "harm and hurt".
| _a_a_a_ wrote:
| > We know that tiny doses can harm and hurt humans
|
| Evidence? (Other than tiny doses of anything potentially can
| cause harm and hurt, assuming harm and hurt are 2 different
| things, not perhaps the same thing repeated in different ways
| to make an emotive appeal)
| pessimizer wrote:
| You seem to know of a discourse where "microdose" implies that
| something has no effect. Why would they be taking it if it had
| no effect?
|
| > We know that tiny doses can harm and hurt humans.
|
| We don't know that tiny doses of LSD can harm or hurt humans.
| What we do observe is that smaller amounts of things tend to
| have smaller effects than larger amounts of things.
| xXTyrannosXx wrote:
| The dose for LSD to be harmful is extremely high and you would
| likely never encounter anyone selling anywhere close to the
| amount needed. The biggest threat to the user is the
| contamination of the LSD by possibly fentanyl or other opiates
| due to the unregulated nature of the black market.
| klyrs wrote:
| On a previous thread here about LSD I learned about NBOMe --
| it's a hallucinogen that's sold on paper tabs; if a dealer
| (or their supplier) is unscrupulous they might sell it as
| LSD. Only problem? Where psychonauts feel comfortable eating
| mouthfuls of LSD tabs, the difference between noticeable and
| harmful doses is quite small with NBOMe.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25I-NBOMe
| sitkack wrote:
| Write drunk, edit sober.
|
| Mind altering substances definitely give a new perspective on the
| problem.
| Phelinofist wrote:
| [flagged]
| Jazgot wrote:
| I'm wondering whether experiences with hallucinogens are some
| form of doing self regularization?
| sixo wrote:
| Yes in the sense that the aim is to avoid overfitting, and to
| improve generalization, but here the goal is not to favor
| simpler models but to avoid them, with the presumption that the
| observed data is a biased sample of reality, and that our
| natural model building intuition will not correctly make sense
| of outliers... That kind of thing.
| extasia wrote:
| What do you mean by self regularisation?
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