[HN Gopher] Autoimmune disease can attack the brain, cause psych...
___________________________________________________________________
Autoimmune disease can attack the brain, cause psychiatric symptoms
Author : donohoe
Score : 160 points
Date : 2023-06-01 12:56 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.washingtonpost.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.washingtonpost.com)
| refurb wrote:
| I have no idea if the theory has been disproven, but
| schizophrenia was thought to be autoimmune because the disease
| waxes and wanes, like multiple sclerosis and other immune
| diseases.
| tomohawk wrote:
| After many doctor fails, a family member resolved their symptoms
| through diet. Specifically, they follow the plant paradox diet.
| It's not just microbes that cause autoimmune issues, but also
| food you eat.
| londons_explore wrote:
| I'm going to take a wild guess that 90+% of things we describe as
| 'autoimmune' are in fact initially caused by some
| bacteria/virus/pollution we haven't yet identified.
|
| I'd like to see research done on mice to reduce the number of
| viruses and bacteria they are exposed to - for example by
| sterilizing all air, water, and food for many generations. Then
| see which ailments go away.
| refurb wrote:
| That's still autoimmune though.
|
| The body has a immune reaction against something foreign -
| however the antibodies created co-react with proteins found in
| your own body.
| reubenswartz wrote:
| I am not a doctor, but I'm guessing that your experiment would
| solve some problems and create others. If the immune system has
| nothing to deal with, it may deal cause more autoimmune
| problems (see the "hygiene hypothesis").
| LatteLazy wrote:
| Don't autoimmune disorders get WORSE in "cleaner" environments?
| jvanderbot wrote:
| My expectation is it's mostly environmental pollution like
| pm2.5 causing inflammatory responses, which trigger immune
| function unnecessarily.
|
| I base this on the fact that when I moved to a pollution filled
| city my hair fell out from autoimmune disease, then when I
| moved out, it stopped happening.
| bawolff wrote:
| > I'm going to take a wild guess that 90+% of things we
| describe as 'autoimmune' are in fact initially caused by some
| bacteria/virus/pollution we haven't yet identified.
|
| Wouldn't it still be described as autoimmune? An autoimmune
| disease initially caused by an external agent is still an
| autoimmune disease.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| I don't think you can only say germs/pollution. You also have
| the many elements of "stress" as described in "The Stress of
| Life" by Hans Selye.
| haldujai wrote:
| > I'm going to take a wild guess that 90+% of things we
| describe as 'autoimmune' are in fact initially caused by some
| bacteria/virus/pollution we haven't yet identified.
|
| As a wild guess probably a bit high but viruses like EBV are
| being increasingly suggested as causative of many autoimmune
| diseases.
|
| > I'd like to see research done on mice to reduce the number of
| viruses and bacteria they are exposed to - for example by
| sterilizing all air, water, and food for many generations. Then
| see which ailments go away.
|
| May not be the panacea you expect, on the other hand some
| people think too clean is the problem.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis
| PaulKeeble wrote:
| Herpes viruses generally. It seems to reactivate on other
| infections and spread to new cells causing increasing
| problems in the body. EBV and Herpes seem to hack the immune
| system to stop these cells from being destroyed. We could do
| with antivirals that expose these cells or recognise them and
| destroy them.
| londons_explore wrote:
| I think the hygiene hypothesis will turn out to be false, and
| data pointing in its direction will be the effects of
| cleaning products.
| bckr wrote:
| Yes or volatile organic compounds offgassing from
| manufactured goods
| Buxato wrote:
| All the herpes family causes tons of health problems, HSV 1 &
| 2, EBV, Citomegalovirus .... (some of that problems recently
| discovered but also the main suspect in many other diseases)
| haldujai wrote:
| The question becomes why do only certain people get the
| illness?
|
| 50-90% of the US population are EBV or CMV positive yet
| it's a much smaller percentage that develop autoimmune
| illnesses.
|
| I'm the farthest thing from a rheumatologist but it seems
| like the favored explanation is a combination of infection
| and abnormal immune response.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| At which point could this just be pure random chance?
| I.e. what if EBV or CMV or similar viruses poking at the
| immune system are like comic rays hitting non-ECC RAM?
| Most people won't notice most of the time, and some
| people will experience mysterious crashes or data
| corruption that don't seem to have any apparent cause.
| haldujai wrote:
| Good question, I'm much more familiar with the oncology
| literature and there is definitely causative evidence
| linking EBV and to a lesser extent CMV with
| lymphoma/lymphoproliferative disorders (particularly in
| the post-transplant setting).
|
| I believe the evidence for autoimmune disorders is much
| weaker (with the caveat that this is well outside my
| scope of practice), I've heard it being implicated in MS
| from my neurology colleagues but my understanding is it's
| a weak correlation at the moment. I can't offer more than
| uneducated conjecture on other autoimmune diseases.
| UpToDate says the following:
|
| "One difficulty in proving a link between EBV and MS is
| that serological evidence of EBV can be found in 83 to 90
| percent of adults in the Western hemisphere [99,101,102].
| On the other hand, EBV seropositivity among adult MS
| patients is near 100 percent, significantly higher than
| healthy controls [91,102-106]. Additionally, children
| with MS are significantly more likely than healthy peers
| to have serological evidence for prior EBV infection, at
| an age when EBV seropositivity is much less common than
| in adults [107]. However, there is conflicting evidence
| concerning the presence of EBV in brain tissue of
| patients with MS [108-111]."
| zanfr wrote:
| SARS 1 & 2
|
| same deal
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| For similar reasons why ~30% of the population has HSV-1
| and never has any outbreaks and don't even know they have
| it.
| [deleted]
| djmips wrote:
| I have a thought that only applies to the brain - perhaps
| mechanical injuries which can allow viruses to cross the
| blood brain barrier which only happen in a small subset
| of the population are the ones that are more likely to
| develop autoimmune disease in the brain. So a car
| accident which leads to a tear which allows virus into
| the brain which leads to autoimmune disease that affects
| the hippocampus which manifest as physical symptoms.
| RobotToaster wrote:
| I guess the question is, how do we get rid of them?
| deemster wrote:
| My wild guess aligns with Dr Gabor Mate. Dr. Mate emphasizes
| the significance of psychosocial factors, including stress,
| trauma, and emotional experiences, in the development and
| progression of various diseases, including autoimmune
| conditions. He suggests that chronic stress, adverse childhood
| experiences, and unresolved emotional issues can contribute to
| dysregulation of the immune system, potentially triggering or
| exacerbating autoimmune diseases.
|
| According to Dr. Mate, unresolved emotional stress and trauma
| can disrupt the body's natural balance, leading to chronic
| inflammation and an overactive immune response. He emphasizes
| the importance of understanding the underlying emotional and
| psychological factors that may contribute to the development or
| worsening of autoimmune diseases.
| meindnoch wrote:
| Quackery.
|
| Modern humans have extremely sheltereled lives compared to
| our ancestors. Yet, autoimmune diseases seem to be getting
| more common in modern societies.
| [deleted]
| irdc wrote:
| > According to Dr. Mate, unresolved emotional stress and
| trauma can disrupt the body's natural balance
|
| How does that differ from Germanic New Medicine? (see
| https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ryke_Geerd_Hamer)
| panxyh wrote:
| Come on, really? It differs in that it _can_ cause, not
| _always is the_ cause.
|
| There is no doubt that stress has physiological effects on
| body.
| fidotron wrote:
| This is a circular argument. If you have an undiagnosed auto
| immune condition the result of it will be things constantly
| occurring outside of your control and thus you will have
| chronic stress which probably will make things worse.
| monktastic1 wrote:
| It would only be a circular argument if autoimmune
| conditions were the only way to become stressed. As it
| stands, this sounds more like a "vicious circle" (whereby
| one caught in this cycle has a hard time exiting it).
| 2devnull wrote:
| Is there evidence that stress can occur and not lead to a
| vicious cycle of inflammation and autoimmune disease?
|
| I am a big fan of Mate, but I think his ideas are
| oversold if not by him then by many he has "helped".
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| >Dr. Mate emphasizes the significance of psychosocial
| factors, including stress, trauma, and emotional experiences,
| in the development and progression of various diseases,
| including autoimmune conditions. He suggests that chronic
| stress, adverse childhood experiences, and unresolved
| emotional issues can contribute to dysregulation of the
| immune system, potentially triggering or exacerbating
| autoimmune diseases.
|
| Yep, if you read books like 'the body keeps score' and 'the
| deepest well', the link between trauma and autoimmune
| diseases AND depression is remarkably high. I'm not saying
| every case of depression or autoimmune disease is linked to
| trauma, but wow, is it about as good of a risk factor as
| smoking is to lung cancer.
| haldujai wrote:
| I think Dr. Mate raises some interesting theories. Chronic
| stress is poorly understood and not well addressed in
| modern medicine (because it's really hard to study and
| treat) but:
|
| > is it about as good of a risk factor as smoking is to
| lung cancer
|
| I wouldn't go that far. Smoking has a well understood
| pathophysiology and extensive evidence as it relates to
| lung cancer.
| EMM_386 wrote:
| > My wild guess aligns with Dr Gabor Mate. Dr. Mate
| emphasizes the significance of psychosocial factors,
| including stress, trauma, and emotional experiences, in the
| development and progression of various diseases, including
| autoimmune conditions.
|
| Well I had what most would consider to be a perfect childhood
| and I got Graves Disease at 18 and had to have my thyroid
| gland fully removed.
|
| So I guess you can count me out of this one.
| meindnoch wrote:
| Clearly a case of subconscious trauma.
| m3kw9 wrote:
| But I'd say even if it is, it's because one's genes are
| susceptible to it while others won't have issues
| A_D_E_P_T wrote:
| > "I'm going to take a wild guess that 90+% of things we
| describe as 'autoimmune' are in fact initially caused by some
| bacteria/virus/pollution we haven't yet identified."
|
| Not directly. Autoantibodies are the direct cause of many, if
| not all, autoimmune diseases.
|
| It's possible that certain environmental factors, combined with
| genetic factors, kickstart autoantibody production. (i.e. are
| upstream of autoimmune diseases, and causative.) But nobody
| knows for certain. And the reverse hypothesis is also quite
| popular: An environment that's too clean, that leaves too
| little for the immune system to do, can induce a restless
| immune system into producing autoantibodies. "Idle hands"...
| heavenlyblue wrote:
| And then when they accidentally catch something very mild the
| whole population is dead because they never developed the means
| of fighting it.
| haldujai wrote:
| This is a bit dramatic but many think the RSV crisis was a
| result of naive immunity due to COVID-19 public health
| measures.
|
| https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ppul.25582
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| OR immune damage due to covid itself, which was a more
| popular theory with more mainstream medical support last
| time I looked into it about ten months ago.
| haldujai wrote:
| This isn't true (that your hypothesis is mainstream),
| there is no evidence the virus itself was more severe or
| resulted in more severe illnesses than expected to
| support the impaired immune system theory[0].
|
| There is endless literature on this but the majority of
| "mainstream medicine" subscribes to the "every kid got
| sick at once for the first time" theory[0-2].
|
| Anecdotally, I was working at a pediatric hospital for
| parts of the RSV wave and my conversations with PICU/ER
| colleagues was condordant with literature in this space.
|
| [0] https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/149/2
| /e20210...
|
| [1] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PII
| S1473-3...
|
| [2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S14
| 7330992...
| londons_explore wrote:
| Thats why you don't do this for humans :-P
|
| But it would help the search to find out which
| viruses/bacteria/pollutants are harming us, and eventually
| when they are identified they can be eliminated, for example
| with a vaccine.
| janeway wrote:
| I have to argue against this - humbly as an expert with several
| degrees in microbiology, immunology, genetics, host-pathogen
| interaction, university lecturing, etc. The genetic basis of
| immunology is amazingly complex. To assign 90% autoinflammatory
| type disease triggered by pathogens is an unfounded assertion.
| There are many strong examples of monogenic causes of complex
| phenotypes, while separately the clinical microbiology
| explanation of many diseases is also perfectly clear. I am
| certain that there will be many pathogen triggers, as you say,
| but the number 90% does not make sense based on the last 100
| years of the science.
| francisofascii wrote:
| There is also a school of thought (don't know how prevalent)
| that many autoimmune cases are not autoimmune at all. And that
| the unidentified bacteria/virus/pollution etc. is still present
| or persisting, so the immune system is continually fighting
| that hidden pathogen rather than one's own normal cells. And so
| conventional autoimmune treatments that suppress the immune
| system are allowing to unidentified pathogen to persist.
| bschne wrote:
| Couldn't you tell this apart by the kind of damage caused to
| one's own cells and what kind of antibodies are present? e.g.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinuclear_antibody
| haldujai wrote:
| Ah ANA, the wonderful test that everyone orders and then
| shamefully consults rheumatology because no one knows how
| to interpret it[0]. Almost a rite of passage in medical
| training now.
|
| I jest but I think these tests are still a bit of a mystery
| (as in why these autoantibodies are made and what their
| significance is) especially as some people with high titres
| have no symptoms and vice versa although there is an
| association.
|
| I think what parent is alluding to is that the trigger for
| production may be an infection, even if the damage is
| mediated by one's own immune system.
|
| [0]for a chuckle this is a humorous but accurate depiction:
| https://twitter.com/DGlaucomflecken/status/1371901346413117
| 4...
| bschne wrote:
| I keep being fascinated by how medicine is simultaneously
| things like "that death sentence is a minor inconvenience
| now" and others and things like... this
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| And then try convincing your primary care doctor that an
| ANA test could be negative and you can still have lupus
| or any other autoimmune disease.
| francisofascii wrote:
| Depends on the type and quality of the test. Serological
| tests can yield incorrect readings.
| greenthrow wrote:
| That's not how infection works. You don't clear it up by just
| stopping exposure. The patients in the article weren't
| constantly being exposed to lupus for decades. Putting them in
| a bubble would not have cleared up the infection.
|
| You are making wild guesses from a place of ignorance. If you
| want to learn more about the science of immunology the
| resources are out there to learn about it.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Putting them in a bubble _for multiple lifetimes_ might...
|
| Clearly that isn't practical for humans, but for mice, it is,
| and the results of that can inform further research.
| ckemere wrote:
| Whoa - the microbiome is hugely important for health in
| multiple ways. Most humans have about the same number of
| bacteria in their bodies as their own cells
| (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature11234). I think the
| consensus is just the opposite as what you're suggesting - that
| early exposure to more things is beneficial for a healthy
| immune system.
|
| I suspect that the culprit is much more likely environmental
| contamination (microplastics, PFAS, etc), which I guess is one
| thing that you list. But "sterile" is not the solution, and
| unfortunately we have pretty badly contaminated the whole
| planet at this point...
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| The Hygiene Hypothesis actually suggests that limiting exposure
| to microorganisms in childhood might result in worse immune
| tolerance, leading to a higher rate of autoimmune issues:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis
| pyrale wrote:
| > I'd like to see research done on mice to reduce the number of
| viruses and bacteria they are exposed to - for example by
| sterilizing all air, water, and food for many generations. Then
| see which ailments go away.
|
| If something is common in the environment and would not cause
| harm to people if not for disproportionate response from the
| immune system, I would say that the issue is the immune system,
| not the common element.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Remember that the population of humans a million years ago
| used to be ~20,000. It is now 7 billion.
|
| Some diseases have big and obvious effects, while others are
| undetectable/unknown. Assume that diseases mutate a fixed
| amount per human they infect.
|
| All 7 billion of those people are one 'pool' for disease
| spread - as evidenced by covid.
|
| That means that the rate your immune system 'sees' entirely
| novel diseases - not only novel to you, but also novel to all
| your ancestors - is 350,000x higher than it used to be. The
| true figure is probably lower, because many diseases infect
| multiple species. But still, there is a strong argument that
| we are asking our immune system to do something far outside
| what it has evolved to handle.
| pyrale wrote:
| > Some diseases have big and obvious effects, while others
| are undetectable/unknown.
|
| A disease is a pathological process, something that goes
| wrong. If someone lives their life without a symptom, they
| are not diseased.
|
| Your immune system doesn't see "novel diseases", it
| encounters molecules it doesn't know. These molecules may
| be pathogenic (i.e. they cause a disease), or they may be
| harmless. Your immune system reacting disproportionately to
| harmless stuff, is what's called autoimmune disease.
| mrcode007 wrote:
| The part about immune system reacting to harmless stuff
| is not true.
|
| Autoimmune diseases are diseases in which a body responds
| to itself. Not to external factors.
|
| Think of it as threat classification errors
| pyrale wrote:
| Ok. I wasn't sure there was a clear classification of
| what's external and what's "the body". My point was about
| making a distinction between disease and the thing being
| responded to.
| zanfr wrote:
| we will have to sterilize the air as evidenced since 2020
| ajuc wrote:
| There's a significant psychological factor in many autoimmune
| diseases.
|
| For example I had asthma and allergy since forever, but I got
| colitis ulcerosa for the first time when I was 18 and had final
| exams in the high school, which decided what university I can
| go to.
|
| Even asthma attack can be caused by stress alone.
| aksss wrote:
| Asthma is, of course, an immune system response but is not an
| autoimmune disease[1]. That said, mental and _physical_
| stress are a significant factor in autoimmune disease flare-
| ups and chronic hypertension is linked (one of many things)
| to AI disease onset.
|
| [1] https://www.healthline.com/health/asthma/is-asthma-an-
| immune...
| mondocat wrote:
| That's... what happens:
| https://www.science.org/content/article/can-dirty-mice-save-...
| meindnoch wrote:
| Ummm... how is this news? Just ask anyone with multiple
| sclerosis.
| johnisgood wrote:
| It is not news to us, but my neurologist (specialized in MS)
| and psychiatrist have no clue about the fact that the disease
| itself can indeed cause depression and anxiety (or any other
| neuropsychiatric symptoms[1]), and this is not even mentioning
| the perception of the disease itself along with its symptoms
| such as difficulty walking and the like.
|
| According to my personal experiences, these doctors are
| clueless. I have been told that the tremor in my leg will never
| be cured, yet it disappears after taking Kratom. It is also
| much less frequent now after I have done some exercises for
| some time now, along with a massage that I receive once a week.
|
| By the way, I do not wish to talk about this touchy subject,
| but I know someone who works at a social home and around 80% of
| the patients have gotten worse after having received the 4th
| booster. That, and in general, after COVID-19 and COVID-19
| vaccines there have been many more people who have been
| diagnosed with MS, most likely from either COVID-19 or the
| vaccine. It is known that those vaccinations may cause
| autoimmune diseases (check PubMed). Personally I have received
| the diagnosis long before COVID-19. At any rate, this is why I
| was reluctant to get the vaccine. As far as I know, I never had
| COVID-19.
|
| [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6933139/
| Mezzie wrote:
| Yeah, that was my first thought as an MS patient. Personal
| evidence aside, MSers depression and anxiety rates suggests
| some kind of relationship - as a population I believe we have
| some of the worst depression rates even controlling for the
| severity of the disease. We beat out cancer patients, for
| example.
| DANmode wrote:
| Have you ever asked people without MS to describe it?
|
| If you don't know someone who has it, and weren't lucky enough
| to learn about it in school, chances are you don't really know
| what it is, or how it can present in a patient.
|
| Neuro is poorly understood in general by a large portion of the
| population.
| aksss wrote:
| IME, most times when you mention "autoimmune disease", people
| think AIDS. Explaining that your autoimmune disease is kind
| of the opposite of AIDS, that it's not contagious, are
| annoyingly common experiences.
|
| And it still amazes me - personally I knew about autoimmune
| diseases before I ever had one. Probably because of Seal,
| frankly. The reality is that a large portion of any
| population doesn't care to learn about anything outside of
| their immediate lived experience. Easy to forget this when
| hanging out on HN and having a nerdy and wonky social circle.
| onewheeltom wrote:
| Why did it take them 20 years to notice the autoimmune disorder?
| aksss wrote:
| The following video conference with Robert Lahita is one of the
| more substantive discussions on the understanding of systemic
| lupus erythematosus (SLE) that I've seen in a while.
|
| https://youtu.be/FYYfHWR7WwY
|
| In his presentation (~36:20) he has a slide stating that *67% of
| those with SLE have psychological or psychiatric issues*, 8-20%
| seizures, 3-16% cranial neuropathy. Of course, "psychological or
| psychiatric" could be depression and anxiety, and I don't mean to
| minimize those issues at all, but cognitive dysfunction is a bear
| in the room for all SLE patients and probably far more serious if
| one is unlucky enough to have that symptom manifest (most do not,
| as I understand it).
|
| I will say that at disease onset and adjusting to having a
| disease, depression is common. It's life-changing, so to be
| expected. Ongoing, I think it's a constant battle as you're
| constantly reminded of limitations and pain is like an everyday
| companion that you learn to live with but sometimes the mental
| load can get overwhelming, triggering episodic depression. I know
| this from personal experience, but also my exposure to others
| with SLE and MS. As you go, it can be hard to know whether some
| mental and attitudinal issues are related to SLE and its side
| effects or just aging (e.g. increased anxiety, timidity,
| depression, memory loss, mental fog, fatigue).
|
| And speaking of mental load, blocking out chronic pain takes a
| lot of mental energy, which is a zero-sum game - it indirectly
| results in a decreased ability to focus, engage, etc.
|
| Regarding other comments here:
|
| 1) There are well over 200 identified "autoimmune disorders", and
| any amount of research that's compelled by having one of them
| will reveal how much and ironically how little the scientific
| community knows about causes, dynamics, and treatments for
| autoimmune disorders. In fact, the immune system itself is
| monstrously complex and it's amazing how mysterious it remains
| considering how much really is known about its mechanics.
|
| 2) Animal models for SLE (and I assume most autoimmune disorders
| of the same severity - not talking allergies and asthma here) are
| traditionally hard to create and have faith in, though this has
| been getting better. It makes sense that this has been
| challenging considering we don't know specific causes.
|
| 3) Pathogenesis - Environment (UV light, drugs, viruses,
| pollutants, etc.), hormones/epigenetics, genetics, stochastic
| factors (chance), comorbidities (e.g. hypertension), all seem to
| play a role, and none seem - on their own - to be good predictors
| of risk. It's thought that there's some "trigger" in the sense
| that all these factors reach some threshold that cause breakage
| in the system at a point in time and BAM! now you have Lupus or
| MS, for example. So it could be that you get infected with
| something and experience an extraordinary level of physical and
| mental stress at the same time, and it tips the scales. But on
| their own neither of these factors would be causal, and even
| together these wouldn't necessarily have the same impact on you
| at a different time in life or affect another the same way.
| Clearly there are missing links here.
| whatthesmack wrote:
| https://archive.is/vc5Bl
| Zamicol wrote:
| This is common knowledge in the celiac community. Conditions like
| gluten ataxia are real and serious, which is understood to be
| distinct from "gluten fog". https://www.beyondceliac.org/celiac-
| disease/related-conditio...
| lincon127 wrote:
| We've been seeing stuff like this with COVID-19. Long term,
| COVID-19 can increases susceptibility to autoimmune diseases,
| diseases which end up having dramatic impacts on brain health. I
| know some of the scientists that are having a field day
| publishing research measuring biomarkers that can predict brain
| health, and they are absolutely seeing an uptick after COVID-19,
| and have linked it to malfunctioning immune systems.
| xenonite wrote:
| Could provide a link to which biomarkers there are increasing?
| Can they be correlated to the variants of virus and vaccine?
| pkoird wrote:
| It is remarkable how I keep on stumbling upon connections between
| Scizophrenia and Gut Bacterias and it is equally remarkable, the
| connection now being discovered between Gut Bacterias and Auto
| Immune disorders. And now when I find such anecdotes between
| possible connections of Auto Immune disorders and Schizophrenia,
| it just blows my mind to see how every thing is just connected to
| one another. This demonstrates just how much we still do not
| understand and on a more positive note, just how much we can in
| future.
| janeway wrote:
| Agreed, however a massive fallacy in science is that the more
| people keep repeating "hypotheses", the more likely you are to
| be persuaded by spurious results / false positives. With enough
| attention large scale statistical analysis should be able to
| define clear causal effects, but we often just see weak results
| about "maybes" and "might bes".
| teachrdan wrote:
| If this is a causal relationship, how can we explain the
| apparent heritability of schizophrenia? Some cursory Googling
| shows 79% heritability found in one Danish study.
|
| https://www.healthline.com/health/is-schizophrenia-hereditar...
| zoogeny wrote:
| As a barely related tangential thought: I've wanted to write a
| short science-fiction story about an alien life-form slowly
| colonizing our planet by invading human gut micro-biome through
| our diet. Through this process they alter our food preferences
| to choose diets most conducive to their own flourishing and
| then eventually effect our minds. We become convinced that diet
| choices are for the benefit of our own health but in reality we
| are eating foods that really benefit the alien bacteria in our
| guts.
|
| The idea is very roughly based on the cat poop parasite
| (Toxoplasma gondii) that is theorized to alter human brain
| chemistry to change risk-taking behavior.
| fnord77 wrote:
| and yet no viable, actionable treatment has come about from
| these connections despite them being around for a decade or
| more
| tomjakubowski wrote:
| When I hear a person say their thoughts are being controlled by
| microscopic creatures living inside them, I won't write it off
| as a paranoid delusion. I'll hear them out.
| PretzelPirate wrote:
| There's a musician named Ren (@renmakesmusic) who was told for
| years that he had various psychiatric diseases and eventually it
| was discovered that he had an autoimmune disorder caused by Lyme
| disease. He writes songs about his experiences and how he thought
| his life was over.
|
| He mentioned in a podcast that he only got a proper diagnosis
| because he lied to a doctor about his symptoms to get specific
| meds, and those meds just happened to work. Because they worked,
| another doctor was able to put all the info together and diagnose
| Lyme.
| haldujai wrote:
| Lyme disease can be "autoimmune" like in clinical manifestation
| but is more accurately described as a tick borne infectious
| disease treated primarily with antibiotics, as opposed to the
| viruses being discussed here which are more weakly linked and
| treated with immunosuppressants.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| Be careful with anything related to "chronic Lyme". While it is
| true that Lyme disease can trigger long-term symptoms, Lyme has
| also become a catch-all haven for pseudoscience practitioners
| and quackery.
|
| It has become so bad that most patients with unexplained
| chronic conditions who use internet health forums will
| eventually go through a phase where they think they might have
| Lyme disease. The "chronic Lyme" alternative medicine industry
| has evolved to cater to these desperate patients by offering
| convenient, albeit unprovable, answers to the question of
| what's causing their symptoms. The chronic Lyme proponents
| claim that it can't be tested for, won't show up on normal
| tests, or can only be diagnosed through vague symptoms. As a
| result, anyone showing up with vague symptoms gets a diagnosis
| of chronic Lyme.
|
| Their proposed treatments usually involve extended rounds of
| expensive antibiotics which have no proof of working and have
| not shown any difference from placebo in clinical trials of
| supposed "chronic Lyme" patients. Sadly, some quick research on
| the musician you cited shows that he has been taken by one such
| alternative medicine practitioner and has been attempting to
| raise tens of thousands of dollars to pay this practitioner for
| antibiotic treatment. I'm sorry to say but I suspect this
| musician has been caught up in the chronic Lyme alternative
| medicine industry without much, or any, scientific basis for
| the expensive treatments he's being peddled.
| haldujai wrote:
| Interesting, at first I thought you were referring to "post-
| treatment Lyme disease syndrome" which has _some_ medical
| legitimacy to it. It appears that there is a distinct
| "chronic Lyme disease"[0] rooted in quackery, learned
| something new.
|
| I also assumed the poster was referring to "genuine"(?) Lyme
| disease (B. burgdorferi infection) which can go untreated and
| have neurological manifestations.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_Lyme_disease
| [deleted]
| spondylosaurus wrote:
| Fun fact: if you have _any_ kind of autoimmune disease, it 's
| easy to get a false positive on certain blood tests commonly
| used to diagnose Lyme disease, because the less-specific
| tests can pick up general immune activity regardless of its
| cause.
|
| I fear for how many people have (falsely) tested positive for
| Lyme disease, despite never having been exposed, and fallen
| down a rabbit hole of pseudoscientific treatments while their
| actual health issues remain untreated. And of course your
| symptoms will only worsen, which seems to reinforce the need
| for useless "chronic Lyme" treatments, and so on and so
| forth.
| lispisok wrote:
| "Leaky gut" is the exact same kind of pseudoscience and
| quackery
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| Leaky gut is not pseudoscience. It's actually a real
| medical condition called intestinal permeability.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8427160/
|
| That's not to say that any quack can just diagnose you with
| intestinal permeability without doing any tests, so I agree
| with you on that.
| haldujai wrote:
| I think you may be misunderstanding this article.
| Intestinal permeability is not a diagnosis in this paper,
| they are referring to the physical permeability of the
| gut which can be altered in many diseases and is not in
| dispute (i.e. "altered gut permeability" is a symptom of
| a disease, not the disease itself).
|
| "Leaky (or permeable) gut syndrome" is not a recognized
| disease.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| No, I did not misunderstand.
|
| Having higher intestinal permeability is a disorder that
| causes suffering. Call it whatever you want, it increases
| autoimmunity issues.
|
| https://gut.bmj.com/content/55/10/1512 "increased
| intestinal permeability is observed in association with
| several autoimmune diseases. It is observed prior to
| disease and appears to be involved in disease
| pathogenesis;"
| haldujai wrote:
| Right, I don't think anyone doubts that altered
| intestinal permeability may be seen in several
| conditions. The etiological theory of "leaky gut" (i.e.
| leaky gut is the cause of disease) is not accepted in
| medicine.
|
| This article again suggests a theoretical mechanism that
| altered gut permeability is involved in the pathogenesis
| of an autoimmune disease and the evidence cited does not
| exclude the possibility of a common etiology[0], it also
| does not suggest the presence of a "leaky gut disorder".
|
| As an aside an association does not mean causation and in
| any case does not discriminate between symptom vs
| disorder. A fever is associated with nearly every
| infection, it doesn't cause it.
|
| [0]e.g. 'These studies provide intriguing data that
| abnormal permeability may be involved in disease
| pathogenesis, although they cannot exclude an alternative
| explanation that mild gut damage (measured by increased
| permeability) is associated with the development of IBS
| by another mechanism. ' from the IBS studies cited.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| > Right, I don't think anyone doubts that altered
| intestinal permeability may be seen in several
| conditions.
|
| Right, so leaky gut is a real issue. If it is a cause or
| a condition remains to be seen. But to say it is
| psuedoscience is invalid.
|
| You just keep moving the goal posts.
| haldujai wrote:
| OP is referring to "leaky gut disorder" that people
| (quacks) will try to treat today. It is not a recognized
| disorder that requires or has a treatment so it is
| correctly classified as pseudoscience (there is no
| scientific basis for the treatment of an unrecognized
| disease).
|
| Simultaneously altered gut permeability may be seen with
| some disorders, significance not yet determined.
|
| I have never changed that position.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| It's so frustrating that the story is actually "new". We've known
| about neuropsychiatric lupus for decades yet for people like me
| with disabling mood disorders to get to see a rheumatologist is
| nearly impossible.
|
| I have bipolar disorder or schizoaffective type and I am also in
| the initial stages of ankylosing spondylitis and consistent
| leukopenia, they think it's a coincidence but I know it's a
| mitochondrial disorder. (Complex I and III deficiency)
|
| We've gone nowhere in Treatment of mood disorders in over 70
| years. My last episode of depression that landing in the
| hospital. What did they have to offer me? Electro shock
| treatment. No new tests, nothing.
| stef25 wrote:
| > they think it's a coincidence but I know it's a mitochondrial
| disorder
|
| Not saying you're wrong, just be very careful assuming you know
| more than your doctors
|
| > My last episode of depression that landing in the hospital.
| What did they have to offer me? Electro shock treatment. No new
| tests, nothing.
|
| Unfortunately there aren't that many tests for depression (I'm
| aware of none actually). Testing every fringe theory out there
| (which may well no longer be fringe in x time) is simply not
| feasible. Saying this as someone currently heavily medicated
| for depression.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| > Not saying you're wrong, just be very careful assuming you
| know more than your d
|
| This almost sounds like you are stereotyping me...
|
| I do know more than my doctors. For one, they never even know
| what receptors most of the medication I was taking affected.
| But also I have my own genetics and I spent the last 15 years
| studying genetics and neuro-biology. I often fake out
| researchers telling them I have a PhD and I talk with them
| with no problem. And I am currently offering assistance to a
| research study at Stanford who are looking into the possible
| genetic roots of a specific neurological disorder.
|
| So when I say I have a mitochondrial disorder that is causing
| multiple issues for me I know what I am talking about [1]. My
| mitochondrial haplotype is U [2]. I have rare gene changes in
| ND4 [3], ND4L, and MT-CYB [4} which are all linked to Mood
| Disorders and I have been treating them mostly successfully
| with high dose riboflavin [5] (this lowers glutamate [6]
| witch seems to be the mechanism that helps me most).
|
| > Testing every fringe theory out there (which may well no
| longer be fringe in x time) is simply not feasible. Saying
| this as someone currently heavily medicated for depression.
|
| My point is they are testing NOTHING. And these are not
| fringe theories. I am fighting for you and for my family who
| keeps wanting to end their life. By saying these are fringe
| theories you are playing into some stereotype (again). Take a
| look at pyridoxine for depression, or zinc or iron. These are
| not fringe theories, they are neglected theories because they
| would mean the end of treatment. I am not on zero meds but
| klonopin as needed. I have tried no less than 12 medications
| that "worked" but left me numb, over weight, and useless.
|
| Please do not give up and let these doctors tell you what the
| only truth is. I am now working with a family with TRMPSS6
| mutations that leave them all iron deficient and oral iron
| was not helping. They all have severe depression and fatigue
| and anemia. The doctors gave up on them. Turns out all they
| needed was to take their iron with citric acid.
|
| [1] https://ibpf.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Andreazza-
| Duong-...
|
| [2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00
| 223...
|
| [3] https://academic.oup.com/ijnp/article/8/4/515/652752
|
| [4] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1399-56
| 18....
|
| [5]
|
| https://headachejournal.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1.
| ..
|
| https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4948/b1d517ca7333fe0149f5bd.
| ..
|
| https://www.nature.com/articles/pr199327
|
| [6]
|
| https://journals.lww.com/neuroreport/Abstract/2004/10050/Gro.
| ..
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5517396/
| paradox242 wrote:
| Having watched my wife interact with the American medical
| system over the last 10 years for very similar symptoms, I
| have a much lower opinion of the amount of attention and
| care the average doctor is able to provide. There have been
| a few standout exceptions (her psychiatrist in particular)
| but overall there is little collaboration between the many
| specialists, and after billing our insurance for a battery
| of tests, there often little to no follow up.
| haldujai wrote:
| As a physician I also fully support the not hot-at-all
| take that we do a huge disservice to these patients and a
| very poor job with psychiatric and constitutional
| symptoms/illnesses in general with "good care" being the
| exception, as you unfortunately experienced.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| Just wanted to thank you for coming out and saying that.
| stef25 wrote:
| Was expecting you to protest but really it wasn't my
| intention to stereotype you.
|
| I have a Bsc Neuroscience myself but I guess not up to date
| enough. All I'd heard about Paxil / paroxetine was all
| negative yet for me it does make a little difference
| without any side effects at all. Not numb, not gaining
| weight, although I am curious about what you mean by "being
| useless"? I feel that way as well, but it could just be the
| depression. Modafinil helps.
|
| Admittedly I still feel like total shite most days and cry
| and have very dark thoughts more than I'd like to admit.
|
| Regarding insomnia I thought I knew all the treatments (and
| tried them, and they didn't work) until I was prescribed
| Trazodone. Did nothing for the depression but does give me
| 8-10 solid hours of sleep.
|
| Klonopin I get myself on the black market and it certainly
| can kick your ass but don't see how that helps against
| depression since it's mostly an anxiolytic?
|
| The only things that _really_ help are illegal and I guess
| it just gets me more down in the long run, so round and
| round we go.
|
| Will def check out your theories & references, thanks for
| that.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| Being useless includes the depression, not really going
| away, or putting me in a zombie like state that makes me
| pretty unaware of what was going on around me. I better
| stay to be in when I was manic for sure, but nowhere to
| live indefinitely.
|
| I highly recommend you get your genetics and start
| learning about it all.
|
| There is such a huge, genetic risk and diversity that
| underpins mood disorders. It is the only way I found
| myself out of the mess I was in.
|
| I really don't have an issue with depression as much
| anymore as I do the mania and insomnia. And the
| psychosis. That's where the Klonopin helps me. But
| lowering glutamate, for some people has been shown to
| improve stress induced depression.
|
| As for depression, I suggest you look at inflammation an
| immune system as a regulator. And as for nutrients? I
| suggest checking your iron panel, B6, and zinc. These
| will help make the catecholamines implicated to be lower
| in depression.
| stef25 wrote:
| > I highly recommend you get your genetics and start
| learning about it all
|
| What's the best place to do this? I'm in the EU
|
| > As for depression, I suggest you look at inflammation
| an immune system as a regulator
|
| I made some decisions that sent my life in a downward
| spiral, I don't think those factors have anything to do
| with it
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| > What's the best place to do this? I'm in the EU
|
| I do not know. I am in the U.S.
|
| >I made some decisions that sent my life in a downward
| spiral, I don't think those factors have anything to do
| with it
|
| So the difference between psychological depression and
| biological depression are immense. Not to say that your
| genetics did not put you at more risk for depression
| after a stressful event.
|
| It still sucks and I'm sorry. But if it was triggers by
| life choices I would suggest therapy.
|
| At times I have rapid cycling Bipolar. There were
| sometimes I would be depressed and manic within four hour
| cycles. No life situation triggers it. Just noting the
| difference.
| laserlight wrote:
| > Unfortunately there aren't that many tests for depression
| (I'm aware of none actually).
|
| Beck Depression Inventory [0] is one.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beck_Depression_Inventory
| taylorportman wrote:
| I'm still reading this recent bulletin article about tDCS -
| turning that journalist into a sharpshooter and after seeing
| this: "She said those people have this overactive angry cortex
| guy just sitting there. When you apply the electric field, it
| shuts him right up and those people find that their depressive
| symptoms are alleviated." definitely want to look further into
| consumer tDCS devices. Presently I've been trying to fix myself
| by jogging more and drinking less.
| https://thebulletin.org/2023/05/qa-how-darpa-hacked-a-scienc...
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| The only reason I have nothing good to say about tDCS for
| depression is that they still do not know how it works and
| what they are targeting are if there are any repercussions.
|
| tDCS seems to boost gamma brain waves. That is pretty much
| where I live according to an the last time I was tested.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6491895/
| DANmode wrote:
| > What did they have to offer me? Electro shock treatment.
|
| Which State did this take place in?
| haldujai wrote:
| Electroconvulsive therapy is an evidence-based intervention
| for certain types of depression. It should be "accessible" in
| every state although access to psychiatric care is often
| questionable unfortunately.
| phkahler wrote:
| >> Electroconvulsive therapy is an evidence-based
| intervention for certain types of depression.
|
| And evidence that it can cause memory problems and maybe
| more.
| haldujai wrote:
| Your point being..?
|
| Every treatment for anything has benefits and harms,
| there is evidence that the benefits of ECT outweighs the
| harms in select patients (like those refractory to
| conventional treatments) so it has been accepted medical
| practice for a while now.
|
| You certainly wouldn't jump to put a patient on ECT. This
| is jogging my medical student memory but when I rotated
| on psychiatry the patients who underwent this procedure
| had quite severe and disabling symptoms, it seemed to
| help although I'm outside of my scope.
|
| It's certainly accepted in the medical community though.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| North Carolina. At a leading university research center...
| pacaro wrote:
| Getting to see a rheumatologist is way too hard. I have a more
| mundane autoimmune disease (psoriasis/psoriatic-arthritis) and
| excellent insurance, and it's still a struggle. And then it's a
| struggle to get authorization for the medication, even with
| good insurance
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| I have nearly constant back pain, bone spurs and disc
| degeneration on my MRI, and a family history of ankylosing
| spondylitis which required surgery in two cases, and I still
| can't see a rheumatologist for some reason. Probably because
| i am on Medicare.
| John23832 wrote:
| Where I live, you basically can't get without a referral. And
| primary care doctors are clueless about rheumatic symptoms,
| so they don't refer.
|
| You're basically forced to suffer until there is visible
| irreversible damage (crooked fingers, permanent hunch, eroded
| joints, eye damage) for them to say "oh shit, yea, you should
| see someone".
|
| That's not to say that the meds the rheumatologist will put
| you on will treat you any better.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-06-01 23:02 UTC)