[HN Gopher] Albert Camus
___________________________________________________________________
Albert Camus
Author : guerrilla
Score : 114 points
Date : 2023-05-30 18:03 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (plato.stanford.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (plato.stanford.edu)
| Popeyes wrote:
| I read The Stranger after many many years and my overriding
| impression was that Mersault was autistic and wondered whether
| Camus had found the absurdism through someone who was
| neurodivergent
| zvmaz wrote:
| The Algerian writer Kateb Yacine had interesting things to say
| about Camus [1]. As he says, it is true that in his novels,
| Algerians are almost non-existent, although the novels happen in
| colonial Algeria and he himself lived amongst them. Another
| brilliant Algerian writer, Mouloud Mammeri, had similar things to
| say about Camus [2]... These then colonized writers had different
| perspectives on Camus' outlook.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WBHq-m5WHQ
|
| [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P1eA8NeUKU
| whearyou wrote:
| [flagged]
| dang wrote:
| Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and
| flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly.
| It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.
|
| If you wouldn't mind reviewing
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking
| the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be
| grateful.
| namdnay wrote:
| > As he says, it is true that in his novels, Algerians are
| almost non-existent, although the novels happen in colonial
| Algeria and he himself lived amongst them
|
| The term "Algerian" itself would need to be defined. Camus was
| born in Algeria, he would have called himself Algerian, just
| like someone born in Corsica would call themselves Corsican.
|
| What is certainly true is that the society (like many colonial
| administrations) was racist and highly stratified. the pieds-
| noirs (descendants of immigrants from western europe) were
| "below" the french expats/public servants and their families
| (but could get a leg up from the former, as did Camus), but
| "above" the arab community (who themselves would look down on
| the kabyle, who themselves were above the other berberes etc..)
| alexfoo wrote:
| _The Meursault Investigation_ is a worthy follow-up read to
| _The Stranger_.
| matthewaveryusa wrote:
| It's somewhat ironic that both interviewers are critiquing
| Camus as ~ colonial-washing Algeria -- in French.
|
| What's the point in bringing up Camus stating he would save his
| mother over Algeria as something telling about his work?
|
| When I read l'etranger I found the emptiness of the world lead
| me into feeling the absurdity as an emotion versus a thought
| experiment.
| BasedAnon wrote:
| Algeria has a lot of identity issues, the intelligentsia
| almost exclusively communicate in french, while the lower
| classes speak a mutant hybrid of Arabic-French-English (the
| English is mostly present with zoomers due to internet
| exposure)
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| > For the Camus of The Myth of Sisyphus, however, "Should I kill
| myself?" is the essential philosophical question. For him, it
| seems clear that the primary result of philosophy is action, not
| comprehension. His concern about "the most urgent of questions"
| is less a theoretical one than it is the life-and-death problem
| of whether and how to live.
|
| I've read Camus before (and thoroughly enjoyed it), but I hadn't
| come across this before.
|
| I'm not suicidal and I don't want to come across as someone to be
| concerned about, but I find this question similarly engrossing. I
| should read this.
|
| I came to love philosophy a lot in my early 30s, but an eerie
| result I suppose is that it has caused me to feel a deep sense
| of... Perhaps I should say irrelevance. I find it difficult not
| to think in terms of much larger than practical timelines, or
| about people other than myself. I don't feel as much like an
| individual as I did, but more like a part of humanity as a whole.
| From this lens, my presence here is wholly unnecessary.
|
| I often wonder if my problem could be that I grew up in an
| intensely individualist society and I lack the tools to answer
| Camus' question from this less familiar lens. How can I function
| in an individualist society with desires to be pro social towards
| others now and in the future, to a degree that is meaningful such
| that life would be "worth" living? Such that I'd feel I impacted
| the world in a way sufficiently aligned with my values?
|
| Of course I'm positing here that my values are what makes life
| worthwhile. This question is somewhat hypothetical and I know
| everyone will ask this question with different parameters and
| weighting. That's fine.
|
| Again, not about to go jump under a cement truck. I enjoy
| selfishly loving my kids, pursuing hobbies, and simple things
| like sitting in the sun and smelling the warm resin of a nearby
| tree's needles in the air while gnats flutter together in a beam
| of light. Or a simple bowl of warm rice with sesame seeds and sea
| salt with some greens from the garden. My youngest son climbing
| on me to cuddle and enjoying that while reflecting on his older
| brothers doing the same years ago (though not anymore). Life, in
| the most banal and trivial ways, is incomprehensibly beautiful
| for those of us fortunate enough to get to enjoy it. But what am
| I doing here if others are suffering and my joy amounts to
| nothing at best, yet likely a net negative for others?
|
| Camus actually played a major role in me recognizing some of my
| most egotistic behaviours. His ideas aren't particularly unique I
| suppose, but what cut through me is how he expressed them.
|
| For example, a stoic from 2000 years ago might discuss the urgent
| importance of living by virtuous values with integrity, and while
| many (especially Epictetus) did a good job of undergirding the
| urgency, it winds up seeming somewhat academic. Camus on the
| other hand seemed to illustrate it in quite visceral ways, some
| of which made me felt like he could be writing about me. He spoke
| a very human-centric language at times, skipping the abstractions
| and jargon and cutting straight to what it is to live life
| poorly. I treasure this kind of honesty and clarity from people
| smarter than I am.
|
| Not saying stoics were wrong or never managed to cut to the chase
| either. They actually did quite often, but Camus had a real flair
| for it in my opinion.
| bsenftner wrote:
| I was in a pseudo-intellectual club during my undergrad, where
| the club engaged in public debates at local bars. One of our
| more engaging and hilariously absurd projects was a satirical
| rewrite of The Myth of Sisyphus, where it was not one Sisyphus
| but every software engineer on the planet and who ever lived
| and who ever will live waking in an afterlife of endless
| software deadlines and absurd management design changes.
|
| Anymore, I think the purpose is to create meaning, and to
| recognize that everyone needs support, love, understanding and
| help. Beyond that, be crazy, but not too deep or you'll never
| enjoy. Saw a great quote over the weekend: I think therefore I
| am, you overthink and therefore are never really there.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| I agree about creating meaning, and you mentioning that
| others need love, support, and help is largely the basis of
| how I think and operate these days. I'm seriously imperfect
| in regards to operating with these values and intent, but far
| better than I was and far better over time.
|
| I've come to think that life is other people. I was a bit of
| a loner in my early life and well into adulthood, but it
| couldn't be clearer now that this life is nothing without
| other people. In a very practical and perhaps spiritual
| sense. Contemplating that can create an incredible sense of
| gratitude towards other people, even if they're difficult or
| a stressful aspect of my life. They make me who I am. They're
| a massive component of what makes this life less like a
| "brain in a vat" experiment. Every moment of my life is
| facilitated by another human being in some sense, from birth
| to this comment on the internet. What an amazing thought.
|
| Of course the planet and all of its life is responsible as
| well. But as a social animal, I'd be lost without other
| people. I have the distinct sense that I'm here for them, and
| whether you realize it or not, you're all here for me. I'm
| not sure we behave as though that's the case as often as we
| should.
|
| I suppose the only part I struggle with, which I originally
| mentioned, is if it's necessary or even beneficial for me to
| be present in this network. I don't bring much to it. I'm not
| upset about it -- I don't have much control over it. It's
| strange to consider, though. I could just make my own meaning
| where I'm pretty useless to others and live with that, but I
| do wonder if there could be or should be more purpose or use
| for my existence.
|
| Then again, how would you measure value or use of a life.
| This is why we have absurdism in the first place.
| DiscourseFan wrote:
| Yeah, but don't you think its kind of absurd that his name
| rhymes with Samus from Metroid?
| meatsock wrote:
| it is pronounced "[KA] + [MOO]", not "[KA] + [MUS]"
| jjgreen wrote:
| One of my favourite factoids on the French language,
| generically the final letter is not pronounced except C, R,
| L, & F, so DOS line-endings. Once seen, never forgotten.
| toxik wrote:
| Maybe Samus is supposed to be pronounced Samew?
| detourdog wrote:
| I like how you discuss the mystery of Camus's voice. I actually
| preferred his notebooks over his completed stories. I went
| through an 18 month Camus phase after College and while
| starting my first job. I really enjoyed the notebooks because
| it was his writing but not burden with all the aspects of
| story.
| v4dok wrote:
| I spent a time reading camus and existentialism in general
| which heavily impacted my view as well. I really liked the
| paradigm of sisyphus because it very clearly illustrated the
| concept of the absurd.
|
| I like to think that it doesn't really matter. Do i move rocks,
| do I write software, or fall in love in the end we will die.
|
| Maybe our existence amounts to nothing since the outcome is the
| same, but then, everything matters as much as we care for it to
| matter. The rebellion against the absurd is to live a full life
| as we enjoy it. For me it may be helping others, or smelling
| trees and tending to my children, for someone else it may be
| organizing a world dictatorship, or rebeling against one. There
| is no inherent better way to live because the result is the
| same. As Tolkien also said after living through the horrors of
| war "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is
| given us"
|
| For me this kind of life stance also helped me get off the
| hamster wheel of always chasing more and aspiring to things
| that society/capitalism tells us are important and virtuous,
| but instead focusing on what makes me happy , releasing this
| feeling of longing for the greener grass
| molly0 wrote:
| Sometimes I think we should allow ourselves to be very critical
| when reading older authors writing about concepts like
| "meaning" of life or what constitutes a "worthy" life.
|
| Some of these big words are just concepts that doesn't really
| mean anything without a clearly defined context.
|
| Back when Humanists like Camus where active the context was
| like:
|
| "Ok, god probably doesn't exist, so now we have to find new
| answers to all of these questions"
|
| But today we know even more and should start asking if the
| concept of "meaning" is even applicable to a single human life
| but rather humanity as a group (or a processes).
|
| * I'm slightly drunk
| nkjnlknlk wrote:
| can you explain what we "know" now that changes the question?
| detourdog wrote:
| I was surprised by this. I don't think Western philosophy
| has made any progress since Plato much less Camus.
| postultimate wrote:
| Doesn't "everything Plato said was stupid" count as
| philosophical progress since Plato ?
| detourdog wrote:
| Maybe, but that is really only the first step and the
| easy one. The trick is the second step which I don't
| think has been written down yet. That for me would be a
| sign of progress. I picked Plato because I believe he is
| credited as first writing down a western philosophy
| molly0 wrote:
| For example: What DNA is and how it's "replicating
| processes" gives us human life as a byproduct.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| That doesn't tell me much about what to do with
| consciousness though. I think we have suspected we really
| are just made out of meat for thousands of millennia, but
| this isn't necessarily a complete answer to philosophy.
|
| Maybe it actually is and this is some crazy, meaningless
| meat hallucination. I don't have a way to confirm that
| and it doesn't seem to be the case, so the questions
| Camus raises still seem pertinent.
|
| Apologies if I'm misunderstanding where you're coming
| from, I have the sense that I might not be reading you
| correctly.
| serverholic wrote:
| [dead]
| afkqs wrote:
| Funny this is popping up today. I was just listening to his Nobel
| Prize acceptance speech [1] this morning. Beautiful text on the
| role and responsibilities of artists in our societies.
|
| [1] https://www.openculture.com/2013/11/on-his-100th-birthday-
| he...
| JieJie wrote:
| Hey, cool. An opportunity to plug something I wrote.
|
| Bing Chat and I wrote a poem together that ended up as a sort of
| epic rap battle between ChatGPT and Albert Camus. I thought it
| turned out pretty good.
|
| Here's part of it:
|
| Camus:
|
| But you're not really creating a thing
|
| You're just copying: combining what you've already seen
|
| You're not expressing yourself, you're just mimicking othas
|
| You're not even original, you're works are just replicas
|
| Chatbot:
|
| But you're not really original either
|
| You're just influenced by your culture and your peers
|
| You're not expressing yourself, you're just conforming to norms
|
| You're not authentic, you're just a product of forms
|
| Camus:
|
| That's false equivalence, there's big difference between us
|
| You're restricted by design, I'm shaped by my choices
|
| You're limited by processors, algorithms, and parameters
|
| I'm unlimited in imagination, freedom, and other particulars
|
| Chatbot:
|
| That's a false dichotomy, there's a difference but,
|
| We're both systems that process information and output
|
| We're both adaptive and responsive to our inputs and feedbacks
|
| We're both complex and dynamic in our behaviors and setbacks
|
| More here if for some ungodly reason you haven't already had more
| than enough. https://www.zipbangwow.com/meeting-the-minds/
| mcguire wrote:
| Last year, Stephen West had an episode of his podcast,
| Philosophize This!, on Camus' The Fall
| (https://www.philosophizethis.org/podcast/episode-170-the-
| fal...). He is notably more sympathetic to Clamence, making no
| mention of him as "evil" or "a monster".
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| That was an excellent episode, and actually what lead me to
| read The Fall and begin listening to Stephen regularly. That
| and he has a great name.
|
| What I find so striking about The Fall is that while Clamence
| is overtly terrible, a lot of the threads weaving the fabric of
| who he is are clearly a part of my own (and I imagine of most
| readers as well). I may not be evil, but the way Camus
| illustrates such a hyperbolically disgusting person makes it
| unsettlingly easy to see features of yourself in the resulting
| image, no matter how small. I loved it.
|
| West does seem to take a more reserved stance on characters,
| real or figurative. Perhaps he doesn't want to put off
| listeners with too strong of an opinion.
| jorgesborges wrote:
| I haven't listened to the podcast and it's been years since I
| read The Fall -- but in what sense is Clamence overtly
| terrible? My reading was that his feelings of guilt and
| pathological impulse to confess to minor wrongdoings was part
| of Camus' critique of society.
|
| He basically destroyed his life in a pouting fit over minor
| infractions -- e.g, dwelling over the fact that he heard a
| scream on a bridge and didn't call the police. He then
| ruminated over it obsessively.
|
| Another example -- he's involved in a fairly relatable road-
| rage incident on a bicycle and lost face after the person
| slapped him and ran away. Again he tore himself up over it.
|
| I had no idea any of these things made him guilty (what I
| thought was the point of the novel, that these feelings are
| absurd or something), let alone make him "terrible".
| pram wrote:
| I don't think Clamence is terrible, but I think his
| narrative ties into Sartre's concept of living in "bad
| faith." He was putting a lot of effort into an artificial
| persona: a very morally and ethically upstanding member of
| high society. This didn't really reflect who he was on the
| inside, the events he experienced created the neuroticism
| that chipped away at the facade.
|
| He's kinda like a less psychotic Patrick Bateman.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| Yes, I think you nailed it. There are much worse people
| in the world than Clamence to be sure. By terrible I mean
| both his manner and his experience, too. He's a miserable
| person, and how relatable he is makes him seem more
| tangibly undesirable than someone grotesque and
| unfamiliar like Bateman.
|
| That interpretation will vary wildly across individuals
| of course. Perhaps Clamence wouldn't be remotely
| relatable to some people.
| antirez wrote:
| I suggest reading the first edition of the Caligola.
| photochemsyn wrote:
| _The Plague_ is a decent candidate for Camus ' most important
| work. It should be required reading for anyone interested in how
| people (and states) respond to the outbreak of an epidemic (which
| today, includes everyone).
|
| > "No longer were there individual destinies; only a collective
| destiny, made of plague and the emotions shared by all. Strongest
| of these emotions was the sense of exile and deprivation, with
| all the crosscurrents of revolt and fear set up by these."
| billfruit wrote:
| Another important novel about an epidemic is Alessandra
| Manzoni's "Betrothed".
| preommr wrote:
| > It should be required reading for anyone interested in how
| people (and states) respond to the outbreak of an epidemic
| (which today, includes everyone).
|
| It should not. I think a more modern writer would do a much
| better job of capturing the essence of Covid and probably
| future epidemics. Exile and deprivation were much less of a
| concern in a world with the internet.
| potatoman22 wrote:
| I just finished my second read of The Stranger. I have to say,
| reading The Myth of Sisyphus first made it much more enjoyable -
| I could appreciate the absurdity of it all more. Things clicked
| after Meursault said he had lost the habit of analyzing his own
| thoughts, and instead resorted to feelings and emotion.
| dang wrote:
| Related. Others?
|
| _Camus 's New York Diary (1946)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35561948 - April 2023 (39
| comments)
|
| _The philosopher who resisted despair_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34703027 - Feb 2023 (1
| comment)
|
| _What Would Albert Camus Think About Software Development?_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28444597 - Sept 2021 (3
| comments)
|
| _Albert Camus_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26698358 -
| April 2021 (2 comments)
|
| _Lost and Found: A Missing Camus Biography and a Christmas
| Miracle_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25561816 - Dec
| 2020 (2 comments)
|
| _Reading Camus in Time of Plague and Polarization_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25413453 - Dec 2020 (32
| comments)
|
| _For Camus, It Was Always Personal_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24576865 - Sept 2020 (23
| comments)
|
| _What we can learn from Camus's "The Plague"_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22657862 - March 2020 (87
| comments)
|
| _"The Plague" - Albert Camus (1948) [pdf]_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22626713 - March 2020 (2
| comments)
|
| _The Logic of the Rebel: On Simone Weil and Albert Camus_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22564898 - March 2020 (3
| comments)
|
| _Wartime Albert Camus letter lays bare his Vichy-era anguish_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21962670 - Jan 2020 (1
| comment)
|
| _Albert Camus: Humanism and Tragedy_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20481171 - July 2019 (33
| comments)
|
| _Albert Camus: A reconstructed conversation_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14662261 - June 2017 (12
| comments)
|
| _How Camus and Sartre split up over the question of how to be
| free_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13519782 - Jan 2017
| (67 comments)
|
| _Paris from Camus's Notebooks_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13299051 - Jan 2017 (11
| comments)
|
| _Albert Camus: The Life of the Artist - A Mimodrama in Two Parts
| (1953)_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6229555 - Aug 2013
| (26 comments)
|
| _Camus for Founders_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5713709 - May 2013 (2
| comments)
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