[HN Gopher] SAR Values of Commercially Available Mobile Phones
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SAR Values of Commercially Available Mobile Phones
Author : belter
Score : 41 points
Date : 2023-05-28 14:20 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bfs.de)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bfs.de)
| mmastrac wrote:
| TIL
|
| SAR = Specific Absorption Rate
|
| From the FCC's SAR testing page:
|
| > SAR testing uses standardized models of the human head and body
| that are filled with liquids that simulate the RF absorption
| characteristics of different human tissues. In order to determine
| compliance, each cell phone is tested while operating at its
| highest power level in all the frequency bands in which it
| operates, and in various specific positions against the dummy
| head and body, to simulate the way different users' typically
| hold a cell phone, including to each side of the head. To test
| cell phones for SAR compliance, the phone is precisely placed in
| various common positions next to the head and body, and a robotic
| probe takes a series of measurements of the electric field at
| specific pinpoint locations in a very precise, grid-like pattern
| within the dummy head and torso. All data for each phone
| placement are submitted as a part of the equipment approval test
| report for final authorization. However, only the highest SAR
| values for each frequency band are included in the final
| authorization to demonstrate compliance with the FCC's RF
| guidelines.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| SAR Values are useless because of what they measure and how they
| measure them.
|
| First, they are only concerned about thermal changes and it is
| well know now that RF-EMFs have non-thermal effects on
| biology(1).
|
| Second, the SAR levels were set using non-pulsed EMFs, and that
| makes a difference in the biology of RF-EMFs effects(2).
|
| (1)
| https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.1201/97810032...
|
| (2) https://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/59/5/92
| daneel_w wrote:
| For those who read and understand these publishings, are there
| any indications of roughly what wattage (and distance from such
| transmitting antenna/panel) the EMF/EMR starts becoming a
| problem?
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| There's a problem from looking at it from only a wattage
| perspective since whether the EMFs are pulse or not is also
| important.
|
| Also, the effect on any individual might be related to
| several variables, including genetics, current load of
| oxidative stress, or other exogenous factors.
|
| What they are trying to do is find people who truly have
| electromagnetic hypersensitivity syndrome and look at them
| for biological markers. They're not solely interested in the
| power because they know there are variables that make people
| more sensitive than other people.
|
| This was found true in leukemia studies and overhead
| powerlines in the 90s. They found people with certain
| genetics that were more susceptible to leukemia from those
| low frequency EMFs.
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| Really? Because IIRC, the relationship was more poverty
| related than actual EMF related. Living under powerlines is
| unattractive, so houses under powerlines attract people who
| can't afford to live elsewhere.
|
| But, if you've got citations on that one, I'll happily read
| them.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ijc.2754
| 2
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| It's scary how in the news lately, there are some things
| brewing that we thought were safe that _just might not_ be.
| Another one my family is watching is that Fluoride being
| potentially dangerous (a classic conspiracy theorist
| stereotype) is back in the news and a lawsuit against the EPA
| has been allowed to proceed.
|
| https://www.salon.com/2023/03/16/health-officials-delayed-re...
| cubefox wrote:
| Also clothes made out of synthetic fiber shed household dust,
| microplastics, which we breathe in, and which could be
| responsible for all kinds of illness. I'm a lot more
| concerned of getting cotton clothes (carpets, blankets) in
| the future.
| [deleted]
| fock wrote:
| so, as you assume the existence of malvolent non-thermal
| effects: would you be so kind and point out their mechanism?
|
| And also, if there is a mechanism: what do people do to verify
| that mechanism? There should be a way to verify that without
| self-selected human populations and crappy papermills as cited
| by you.
| superkuh wrote:
| You're right. It's just that the only people who click to
| comment on stupid articles like this are the
| "electrosensitive" mentally ill and RF engineers. And there's
| more mentally ill than RF engineers. In the past they'd be
| obsessing over ghosts or something but now radio is the
| invisible thing people don't understand and latch on to.
|
| There's no non-thermal mechanism confirmed in any reputable
| journal and the user above is not going to provide anything
| other than hand waving about two photon effects (laughable)
| or "gap junctions" and extracellular potential woo-woo.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| > It's just that the only people who click to comment on
| stupid articles like this are the "electrosensitive"
| mentally ill
|
| What if EMFs are causing the mental illness? This will be
| relevant later in this comment.
|
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S08910618
| 1...
|
| > There's no non-thermal mechanism confirmed in any
| reputable journal
|
| Is Pubmed not reputable?
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=EMFs+non-
| thermal+effec...
|
| Is Elseveir not reputable?
|
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1383
| 5...
|
| The ideas behind how this happens seem to be solidifying
| around EMFs affecting Voltage Gated Ion Channels:
|
| https://nyaspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/n
| y...
|
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0143
| 4...
|
| And hey, regarding the mental illness, you know what the
| number one gene linked to mental illness effects? The
| Voltage Gated Calcium Ion Channel (CACNA1C)
|
| https://academic.oup.com/schizophreniabulletin/article/44/5
| /...
|
| "Large-scale genome-wide association studies have
| consistently shown that genetic variation in CACNA1C, a
| gene that encodes calcium voltage-gated channel subunit
| alpha1C, increases risk for psychiatric disorders. "
| nulld3v wrote:
| Did you read some of those PubMed articles? Some of them
| have comments that really question the validity of their
| findings.
|
| For example: I see Pall has written a bunch and this one
| in particular has quite a few "sus" comments:
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29573716/
|
| The article is a meta study but there are several
| comments from the authors of the original studies
| indicating that they believe Pall did not interpret their
| study correctly.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| I never said there were no poor researchers, or any
| unanswered questions. I am merely pointing out the fact
| that the science is nowhere near settled.
|
| But one thing you can't do is deny my experience of
| electromagnetic, hyper sensitivity syndrome. And you also
| can't deny my genetics.
| fock wrote:
| Citing yourself
|
| > First, they are only concerned about thermal changes
| and it is well know now that RF-EMFs have non-thermal
| effects on biology(1).
|
| > Second, the SAR levels were set using non-pulsed EMFs,
| and that makes a difference in the biology of RF-EMFs
| effects(2).
|
| Ah, the science is nowhere settled. I would recommend you
| start using the appropriate verbs in the future instead
| of making factual statements!
| fock wrote:
| Yes, I know the stories, I'm fighting a tiny faction in a
| micro-eco-party on it...
|
| The worst thing is, how the community behind this (50/50
| crooks and then some old, methodologically not up-to-date
| people...) essentially practices information laundering in
| an exemplary fashion: 1) start with crappy experiments in
| papermill annexes, 2) make a review on those leaving out
| any where replication was found to be "hard" and
| misinterpreting 0-results and go up a bit in credibility of
| your publisher, 3) go on spam on hackernews/with your local
| environmental group 4) don't answer questions 5) stop
| answering questions.
| Gnarl wrote:
| Oxidative-stress and formation of free-radicals via erratic
| activation of voltage-gated cell-membrane ion channels.
| Pulsed and polarized fields most biologically active. The
| above linked papers give a good intro to this field of
| research.
| fock wrote:
| So now you can start predicting outcomes of new experiments
| with your new physics? Right? Would you mind telling me
| about those too?
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Isn't it about time to stop pretending thay there might be
| something hazardous about athermal levels of RF radiation? After
| 100 years I think we'd have seen consistent biological effects in
| the population if there were any to be observed.
| redeeman wrote:
| its blindingly obvious that there is no somewhat immediate BIG
| problems, but who knows?
|
| But as a thought experiment, what would realistically happen if
| irrefutable evidence came on the table that RF to the levels of
| what phonetowers, other peoples cellphones within say... 5
| meters distance etc, had negative health effects.
|
| Would people be able to demand all RF to that level be stopped?
| could they sue those who do it? (tv stations, phone towers,
| regular cellphone owners)
|
| if those working as regulators saw the reports, and had a
| chance to suppress or recommend we cease all modern
| communication, what do we realistically expect them to do?
|
| I think its beyond naive to think that anything would be
| changed before a solution/fix were to exist, and it also seems
| very naive to think that anyone who presents evidence of
| substantial negative effects would be allowed to publish
| anywhere of consequence.
| Gnarl wrote:
| Really? No one in cities can sleep properly - and the
| headaches.
| stracer wrote:
| > After 100 years I think we'd have seen consistent biological
| effects
|
| Does ionizing radiation have only consistent biological
| effects? If not, why RF must have only consistent effects?
|
| Effects may be varied, just like stochastic effects of ionizing
| radiation.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| After 100 years, the burden of proof is on your side of the
| fence. No one can prove a negative.
| jlarocco wrote:
| I don't know if that's the best argument.
|
| People used lead for pipes, drinking glasses, and other things
| for thousands of years before realizing the negative effects.
| Aeolun wrote:
| Is there any reason to suspects it's any different from
| standing outside on a sunny day?
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| Yes. The difference between man-made EMFs and natural EMFs
| are that man made are polarized and natural EMFs or
| unpolarized.
|
| Also, the wave lengths of man-made EMFs are nonexistent in
| the natural world, and for the majority of human evolution.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Never mind "not even wrong," that's not even right.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Yes, before the scientific method (and trial lawyers) were
| things. We've been paying more attention lately, in case you
| haven't noticed. There's no 'there' there.
| alentred wrote:
| I honestly don't want this comment to seem like another "all hail
| Apple", but it is somewhat reassuring that almost all recent
| iPhones are consistently in 0.95-0.99 range, emphasis on
| consistency.
| gavaw wrote:
| [flagged]
| josephcsible wrote:
| Is there any evidence of actual harm correlated with high SAR
| values?
| azalemeth wrote:
| Independent of mobile phones and treating SAR as the
| electromagnetic phenomenon it actually is, _hell yes_. This is
| what ultimately limits certain types of MRI experiment -- you
| don 't want to cook the patient. The details are complex and
| involve solving Maxwells equations, and optionally the bio heat
| equation to model blood flow.
|
| There are plenty of examples of cooking things with large
| amounts of RF/mmWaves. The physics is very well understood. For
| some specific examples, have a look at
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3469254/, which
| talks about fields burning the inside of brains, or
| https://www.ajnr.org/content/34/5/E47, in which an unfortunate
| girl was burnt by her (silver containing) bra.
|
| Are there any documented cases of a mobile phone causing
| problems? I don't know of any offhand, but SAR is real and the
| models that predict it very well validated.
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| Yep, high power RF can cook you, it's why radio engineers try
| not to expose their crotch or head to focused microwave
| transmitters when climbing a tower. But these are signal
| sources of a far higher power output than a cellphone.
| josephcsible wrote:
| Obviously sticking your head in a running microwave oven or
| something like that would be bad for you. But using that to
| say the SAR values from cell phones are dangerous would be
| like saying that warm water is more dangerous than cold water
| since boiling water is known to be dangerous. So let me
| clarify my original question: is there any evidence of actual
| harm at the highest SAR values of any cell phone?
| eisa01 wrote:
| Speaking of Germany, whenever I visit my phone battery drains
| much faster than elsewhere
|
| This is likely due to the poor reception, which would mean my
| handset has to send a stronger signal to the base station -> more
| exposure to non-harmful RF, but given this German institute they
| do seem to care?
|
| Would this be an example of someone shooting themselves in the
| foot by somehow limiting the transmission power from the cell
| sites? Or am I mistaken?
| daneel_w wrote:
| Part of it can be that, yes, and you can somewhat confirm it by
| taking note of whether or not your phone constantly has fewer
| bars of reception. But what affects this more are domestic
| cellular grid configurations telling phones how often they
| should announce their presence to base stations. With the
| advent of 3G the beacon rate of handsets in the grid is vastly
| higher than during the 2G era. What you're noticing is that
| your phone is "checking in" with the grid - turning its
| transmitter portion on and letting the grid know it's online
| and available - a lot more often than back home.
|
| As another datapoint to this I've visited Malta several times
| the past 3 years, and on every visit I notice that my phone
| (compared to in Sweden) drains notably less battery.
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