[HN Gopher] Octopuses are building small "cities" off the coast ...
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Octopuses are building small "cities" off the coast of Australia
(2017)
Author : Hooke
Score : 148 points
Date : 2023-05-28 13:27 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (arstechnica.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (arstechnica.com)
| [deleted]
| penguin_booze wrote:
| Tangent:
|
| > The first time that divers discovered a "city" of octopuses off
| the coast of Australia, it seemed like a fluke.
|
| I learned from Kevin Malone what 'fluke' means:
| https://youtu.be/b8KbWAMJk1g?t=275.
| chaostheory wrote:
| > About 10 to 15 octopuses live here, in mounds of shells that
| have been constructed over generations
|
| Sounds more like a village than a city or even a town
| stubybubs wrote:
| Probably doesn't even have a Starbucks.
|
| It's a one-seahorse town.
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| Maybe one of them sells starfish for a buck?
| dotancohen wrote:
| By the sea shore.
| lurquer wrote:
| The title -- grammatically --- hints at the idea that this is new
| behavior. (As opposed to newly-discovered behavior.) Why phrase
| it as "are building" instead of "build"?
|
| Within the article, there is this quote that further hints at the
| click-baity idea that this is some new behavior: " Researchers
| now suspect octopuses have been building group habitats for a
| long time."
|
| Would one say that squirrels have been hiding nuts for a "long
| time"?
|
| Phrasing it this way, in my opinion, misleads the reader it I
| thinking this is some new behavior which has been going on for a
| "long time" -- perhaps for several decades!
|
| When, in reality, it's probably normal octopus behavior thst had
| been occuring for as long as there have been octopuses.
|
| I picture s 18th century naturalist breathlessly writing to the
| Royal Society: "you know the beavers we heard about? Well, you're
| not going to believe this, but they are now building dams! And I
| think they've been up to this for quite some time! What will they
| come up with next?!"
| someweirdperson wrote:
| Building a city sounds like a concious activity. But then there
| is:
|
| > "Congregations such as these probably occur wherever shelter
| is limited to small patches of habitat, and food is plentiful,"
| Scheel told Quartz.
|
| They don't decide to live nearby others, but there simply is no
| other place.
|
| The headline should be: Octopuses cannot live everywhere and
| may settle close to eachother if there is no other space
| available.
| emmelaich wrote:
| The Beatles song was in fact inspired by literal octopus's
| gardens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus%27s_Garden
| doubled112 wrote:
| Your complaint reads like that Mitch Hedburg joke. "I used to
| do drugs. I still do, but I used to too"
| 20after4 wrote:
| I used to think that joke was pretty funny. I still do, but I
| used to too!
| efitz wrote:
| A few years ago I read a great sci-fi book, "Children of Ruin",
| by Adrian Tchaikovsky[1].
|
| The book features, among other things, an octopus civilization.
|
| It's the second book in the series; the first features a spider
| civilization.
|
| I highly recommend both; they explore concepts of what
| civilizations would look like with intelligences very different
| from our own.
|
| [1] https://www.amazon.com/Children-Ruin-Time-Adrian-
| Tchaikovsky...
| roughly wrote:
| He's got a third now, Children of Memory - it also is quite
| good. The whole series is really fantastic, although I think I
| enjoyed the second book with the octopi the most.
| not_your_mentat wrote:
| *octopuses. XD
| Rexxar wrote:
| An octopi is indeed a quadritau
| thom wrote:
| Octopodes.
| smitty1110 wrote:
| For the curious, Meriam-Webster had a discussion about
| this on their blog (and a video that's harder to find on
| mobile):
|
| https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-many-
| plura...
| roughly wrote:
| You know, I even looked it up before posting:
|
| https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-many-
| plura...
|
| tl;dr there's no right answer, and consequently no way to
| say "more than one octopus" on the internet without yours
| being the first response :-)
| avdlinde wrote:
| The first book is one of my all time favorites, highly
| recommend. I didn't know there were 2nd and 3rd ones!
| celticninja wrote:
| 2nd is good and Third is ok
| roflc0ptic wrote:
| Started reading this series last Monday, on book three now.
| Fantastic sci-fi, enjoying how optimistic and not grimdark it
| is
| Frotag wrote:
| I like the author (read through a few of his other series)
| but it gets a little tiring how often he switches between
| perspectives. Each perspective is a different plotline and
| they all tie together in the finale but it feels like a
| 50-100 page story is being stretched into 300.
|
| Especially since the dialog can be a bit boring imo (each
| character has some quirk and all their lines / actions tend
| to be predictable when taking this into account). IIRC, the
| Children of Time books aren't so bad in this regard (less
| drama, more reverse-engineering alien tech), but I definitely
| think the newest book for The Final Architecture kinda
| suffers from this.
|
| But yeah nonetheless I really enjoy how creative the world
| building / overall plots are and would definitely recommend
| his stuff to anyone who likes sci-fi.
| namenumber wrote:
| I just finished "Other Minds" by Godfrey-Smith which reference
| one of these "Octopolises". For anybody interested in either
| octopuses or how nature evolves different forms of consciousness
| its a really interesting read.
|
| What most struck me was how incredibly short lived octopuses are.
| I guess some deep-sea variants may have longer life spans, but i
| was surprised that the variants we usually encounter only live
| for approximately two years before they wither and die.
|
| Now as for what an octopus could be able to do with its body-
| distributed form of consciousness given a longer lifespan is a
| rather interesting question.
| wwweston wrote:
| Huh.
|
| Something just a bit beyond this plus some significant AI
| developments is the bulk of milieu for _The Mountain In The Sea_:
|
| https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374605957/themountaininth...
| abhgh wrote:
| Came here to comment about this book. Great read and focuses
| almost entirely on a somewhat uncommon theme within SF:
| challenges in communication between two differently-abled
| sentient species. I quite liked the book both for the core SF
| bits and the tone/pacing.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| Oh, that looks like a fun read!
|
| I enjoy the genre of 'marine biologist writes sci-fi about the
| nature of consciousness', but I can only take so much Peter
| Watts before I feel the need to read something with at least a
| dreg of hope, you know?
| isoprophlex wrote:
| Did you read the Children of Time trilogy? []
|
| In the second or third book, amongst other things, a planet
| is seeded with octopuses and an "uplift virus" that
| dramatically boosts their sentience. It's a brilliant trilogy
| in its own right, but the sentient squids were my favorite
| species by far. Each having 8 independent minds to gather
| data and execute, plus a central vague philosophically minded
| intellect that holds their volition and long term planning.
|
| [] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Time_(novel)
| crooked-v wrote:
| Those books are interesting, but suffer a bit from the
| author just handwaving away increasingly unlikely bio-
| technology as it goes on despite trying to keep a "hard"
| scifi premise.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| I have not, and I've just added it to my read list. Thank
| you for the recommendation!
| xwdv wrote:
| I wonder if there are any discernible social structures in these
| cities, perhaps there is a mayor or sheriff.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| If we have the technological capability of giving animals
| enhanced cognitive capabilities--and we do not give it to them--
| that is an interesting moral choice. Worth a thought.
| ijidak wrote:
| No. That is a violation of the prime directive. :)
| codetrotter wrote:
| Then again perhaps giving them enhanced cognitive capabilities
| would only serve to make existence worse for them? In which
| case, giving them enhanced cognitive capabilities would be
| morally worse than leaving them as is.
| billiam wrote:
| That's what God thought too. Didn't stop Her.
| rektide wrote:
| Having to grapple with existential questions, with
| meaningfulness has it's downsides but being a meaningless
| creature seems unideal. To me.
|
| Becoming sentient on an already developed industrialized
| world seems like it would be awful, though . I like to think
| there are many paths where a species could be welcomed &
| supported well, but it's hard to imagine that happening on
| our present earth.
| wizofaus wrote:
| They're already considered to be gloomy...
| ryanschneider wrote:
| I had a short story idea where explorers come across a planet
| full of ancient ruins and gentle unintelligent beasts. It
| turns out that to survive the great filter the sentient life
| on the planet deprogrammed themselves of all sentience and
| now the explorers need to decide if they should use the same
| tech on their own civilization or not.
|
| Kind of your moral question but in reverse.
| pixelbash wrote:
| I don't wish crippling anxiety on every other species
| proc0 wrote:
| Octopus first words: "I never asked for this".
| Animatronio wrote:
| Maybe the first words will be: "I heard you in the water, and
| I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
| bee_rider wrote:
| But imagine if instead it was "Not this again."
| mkaic wrote:
| Reminds me of a certain sentient bowl of petunias.
| lagniappe wrote:
| Flowers For Algernon
| ycombinete wrote:
| You just made me think of this comic about "teaching a fish to
| man":
| https://mountainmoonvolcano.tumblr.com/post/66762332783/amp
| throwaway_5753 wrote:
| Do we? What would that look like?
|
| Edit: missed the "if". Assuming you put that there because we
| currently do not have this tech. Speculatively: like most
| society wide moral choices, it'd probably be made in such a way
| as to serve the short term interests of whoever had the power
| to enact the policy.
|
| Alternatively: Would octopus uplift increase the quarterly
| profits? If so, say hello to your new eight-legged neighbors.
| frabcus wrote:
| Neuralink for cephalopods.
| Escapado wrote:
| Please no. Make my dog smarter so she can use the toilet or
| not roll in poop, great. But I don't want to be attacked by
| Cthulus spawn at night.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| Genetically engineered octopi could be developed to grow hard
| little nubs on their tentacles so they were capable of giving
| massage therapy. Quarterly profits indeed!
|
| But then, perhaps they would learn to give each other nub
| rubs and then we'd have this runaway hedonic biological
| phenomena underseas. My god.
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| Presumably this applies to people as well.
| [deleted]
| Perenti wrote:
| There was a large group of octopus homes on the sea floor shelf
| north of Bogangar Headland (east coast Australia) in the late
| 70s/early 80s. I used to play with the octopuses as a teen.
|
| I had no idea it was a scientifically significant thing though. I
| wonder if they're still there, as there's been a lot of
| development nearby.
| deafpolygon wrote:
| Oldie but goodie, but my theory is that they're evolving to take
| over the planet.
| stubybubs wrote:
| Reminds me of this scientific article from the highly credible
| news source "The Onion."
|
| https://www.theonion.com/dolphins-evolve-opposable-thumbs-18...
| carrozo wrote:
| Probably my favourite article by them.
|
| Back in the day, it used to have a subheading too:
|
| "'Oh shit,' says humanity."
| hourago wrote:
| I am still waiting for them to discover the use of fire. Until
| that happens we are safe.
| croes wrote:
| Some think if mankind fails and goes extinct, the octopuses
| will be their successors
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| They would have to not die so quickly to do so.
|
| And also get out of the water given it's pretty hard to make
| chemistry in there.
| hanniabu wrote:
| The latter is inevitable, the former is the real challenge
| mc32 wrote:
| At least the okeanosphere.
| ok_dad wrote:
| They may already have orcas doing the first probes...
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