[HN Gopher] The Future of Consumer SBCs: Has the Pi Bubble Burst...
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The Future of Consumer SBCs: Has the Pi Bubble Burst? [video]
Author : gslin
Score : 29 points
Date : 2023-05-28 13:18 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.youtube.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.youtube.com)
| samtho wrote:
| Ever since computers got cheaper and smaller, we've found
| different ways to employ them where it would not have made sense
| before.
|
| I suppose there are two main areas where the RaspberryPi is used:
| Embedded device and computer replacement.
|
| For the embedded device case, what may have been an Arduino
| project pre-RaspberryPI became a, say, Python project running on
| a full Linux system. For this use-case, microcontrollers have
| gotten much more approachable and many development-grade embedded
| Linux boards have come out built to the standard of the Raspberry
| Pi and it's ease of use.
|
| For the computer replacement, I'm talking about the random media
| center boxes, tv-as-monitor, network server, or just low power
| box to use as a desktop. We have the new nucs and knock off or
| similar boxes because all they did was take a netbook without a
| screen and keyboard, slice up the main board so it fits in a
| square, and break out all the I/O ports. These things that can be
| had for $100-$400 are respectable, low-workload computers.
|
| Has the Pi bubble burst? As long as these ostensibly brain-dead
| industrial control systems companies keep gobbling up the supply
| of them, yes. Has the embedded and small-computer bubble burst?
| Absolutely not.
| i2cmaster wrote:
| Software has also improved. Micropython is surprisingly good
| even on micro controllers.
| cookieperson wrote:
| It seems so wrong to use python in embedded but I know that's
| me being a turd sandwich.
|
| But I do have to admit, arduinos and rpi zeros are in the
| same price point. I don't blame people not needing analog for
| going rpi even when it is gross overkill.
|
| I'm just a minimalist. If I can do my project with 16kb of
| RAM, I'm not going to throw a GB at it.
|
| That all said... This article is silly. No raspberry pis
| aren't popping or something. The biggest complaint I think
| most people have with them is you can't buy them anywhere.
| Constantly sold out. I would have bought two or three this
| year otherwise...
| dontlaugh wrote:
| MicroPython is not really the same thing. It's most
| comparable to an embedded Forth, which isn't uncommon.
| cookieperson wrote:
| I know that's why I said I was being a turd sandwich.
| lagniappe wrote:
| I don't think anybody's learned any lessons about rpi, and that
| as soon as they return their focus to the consumer the consumer
| will start snapping them up en masse like they were before.
| Everyone still thinks it's a chip shortage and not a conscious
| business decision to target b2b and bulk rather than independent
| consumers.
| scubbo wrote:
| Genuine question - what is the lesson that you think should
| have been learned? I infer some (justifiable) dissatisfaction
| in your comment directed at the Pi Foundation's choice to
| target B2B - but, if that trend reverses and Pi boards become
| available to individual consumers again, do you believe there's
| a reason that consumers should still avoid them? Explicitly, I
| don't think that "The Pi Foundation might make consumer-harming
| business decisions again in the future" is a good reason,
| because a hobbyist who already owns a board is in no way
| impacted by their future availability (unlike, say, a company
| which chooses to rely on them, and would have migration costs
| if they needed a scale that was unavailable).
| [deleted]
| ThatPlayer wrote:
| That's similar to my thoughts on it. I'm not going to cut off
| my nose to spite my face. If I can get a Pi 4 at MSRP, it
| still provides me more value than any other SBC. I have
| multiple RK3399 and even RK3588 boards that are faster than
| the Pi 4, sure. But in my use cases, those faster speeds
| aren't doing anything so I'd be spending more money for
| nothing.
| fbdab103 wrote:
| I am not sure about SBCs, which are typically anemic hardware
| plus some GPIO pins, but I do have high hopes for NUCs with
| ~desktop class PCs. I look at my miniATX build which is probably
| idle 99% of its operational life and continually wonder why I am
| not using a book sized computer for my everyday life. A NUC with
| a <30 watt power draw + SSD + up to 32GB of RAM would be
| sufficient for so many use cases.
| RobotToaster wrote:
| If all you want is a small PC, used thin clients are usually
| cheap and easy to repurpose.
| causality0 wrote:
| Sure, but you're also paying out the nose for that compactness.
| adrian_b wrote:
| There is a premium price for compactness, but it is not
| great.
|
| In Europe, the prices, with all taxes included, for an Intel
| NUC Pro with Raptor Lake vary from around EUR 400 for an i3
| CPU with 16 GB of DRAM to around EUR 800 for an i7 CPU with
| 64 GB of DRAM.
|
| Similar Chinese computers are cheaper. If one searches for a
| Mini-ITX MB with at least the same number of peripheral
| interfaces as a NUC and one adds the costs for a CPU of
| similar performance, for PSU, case, cooler, DRAM and a small
| discrete GPU, to match the performance of an integrated
| mobile GPU, it is impossible to build a significantly cheaper
| computer.
|
| Some economies vs. a NUC can be achieved only by building an
| even larger computer, with a microATX or ATX MB and by
| omitting some of the interfaces provided by a NUC, e.g. by
| not having any USB 4 / Thunderbolt interfaces.
|
| A complete NUC-like computer with a slower Alder Lake-N CPU
| (e.g. Intel N100) can be found at less than $200, which is a
| price difficult to match with any bigger computer.
|
| Some people like to point that there are complete laptops
| that have the same price as NUCs. Nevertheless, those laptops
| are garbage that I would not use even if offered for free. A
| NUC is much faster than most laptops that seem to have the
| same components (due to better cooling) and it has more
| peripheral interfaces that are also faster. A laptop that
| matches in features and performance a $800 NUC has typically
| a price of at least $3000 and it is marketed as a mobile
| workstation or as a top model of gaming computer.
| ciupicri wrote:
| From where can I get an Raptor Lake NUC for only EUR400?
| ghaff wrote:
| I almost certainly spend the majority of my time on an eight
| year old laptop I keep on my dining room table. I use my office
| computers for various things--certainly including multimedia--
| but I'm mostly in a browser and don't need multiple monitors
| for a ton of stuff. I basically don't use a full-size PC build
| any longer. The one I have is sufficiently old that my M1 Pro
| MacBook would run rings around it.
| cookieperson wrote:
| NUCs are great but they are often completely overpowered for a
| given application. The additional 200 you drop for it isn't
| worth it. Also 30w may be chips for a PC, but for battery
| powered or hybrid powered applications it's a lot of load.
|
| Where NUCs become very attractive in my opinion is when you
| need reliability. Rpis are cute, but anyone who has ran one
| consistently for 6months has likely had some sort of issue. Bad
| SD card, random restart, or what have you. Most NUCs will not
| do that to you. But there are also other SBCs with a price
| range in between that wont either.
| janita wrote:
| [dead]
| PaulKeeble wrote:
| The lack of availability and the associated price hikes have been
| a big problem. We also now have plenty of devices with RK3588
| CPUs which are quite a bit more powerful than the Raspberry Pi 4,
| its been "obsolete" for a good year at this point and while they
| have focussed on solving availability issues other SBC makers
| have moved on with lots of varied devices.
| fmajid wrote:
| Yes, but the software situation with most alternative SBCs is
| terrible, which is why the Pi hasn't been superseded yet.
| qhwudbebd wrote:
| I think mainline kernel support for the RK3588 boards has
| been merged, although it's true there are a lot of other SoCs
| out there where up-to-date kernels are a pipe dream.
| ThatPlayer wrote:
| RK3588 is on-going with Pine64 leading the effort I
| believe: https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/QuartzPro64_Developme
| nt#Upstrea...
| xyzzy3000 wrote:
| I would gladly purchase many smaller Pi boards if I could get
| them at anywhere near RRP. I'm not sure why they're so hard get -
| there seems to still be hobbyist demand, and there's strong
| industry demand as well. What's stopping the Pi foundation just
| upping production?
| ZunarJ5 wrote:
| https://rpilocator.com/
| [deleted]
| RobotToaster wrote:
| >What's stopping the Pi foundation just upping production?
|
| Broadcom
|
| Specifically they for whatever reason refuse to increase
| production of the chips the Pis use.
|
| But any time you ask why something is wrong in embedded, 50% of
| the time "broadcom" will be the answer.
| DanAtC wrote:
| The other 50% is "Qualcomm"
| eyegor wrote:
| Depending on your needs, there are a lot of alternatives now.
| Orange pi or rock boards are fairly similar but much more
| powerful than the rpi. However they don't compete in the pi
| zero class, they compete with the higher spec pi boards (4b).
| If you want a pi zero competitor, I'd suggest the esp32-s3
| based boards such as the lilygo t display s3. There are a lot
| of other options, these are just some that I've used.
| akiselev wrote:
| _> What 's stopping the Pi foundation just upping production?_
|
| My understanding of the rumor mill is that a few years ago the
| foundation started prioritizing commercial customers over
| hobbyists. This pissed off Broadcom which makes the processor
| so now they're not getting preferential treatment at a time
| when there's a lot of demand.
| axegon_ wrote:
| Yes and no. Back in the day having a tiny sbc for any type of
| small task at home made a ton of sense since they were so
| incredibly cheap. GPIO, while nice, remained a gimmick for the
| most part. Fast forward to the 2020's, yes SBC's have become
| pretty powerful. However their price has skyrocketed and
| availability is almost none. For the price of a raspberry pi(or
| less), I can get a second hand office mini atx with 16 gigs of
| ram, 500gb ssd, a 5-6-7-th gen quad core i5 and a good amount of
| USB's and video outputs. And although 4-5 years old, it is stupid
| fast in comparison to any pi. I still have a bunch of pi's. One
| is an ssh server from the outside world to my home network but
| that's all it does. For anything else, I have two similar mini
| pc's in the corner of my flat and they do a much better job than
| any pi. One is processing a ton of data from a subreddit I
| moderate, along with backups, a small ml model to quickly filter
| out crap and whatnot. The other hosts dozens of docker containers
| running self hosted stuff - time management, documents, backups
| and so on. And there is no denying that x86(with all it's
| horrors) will always offer a ton more than ARM. All of which is
| horrible news for the pi's.
|
| There are some potential applications still for consumers. Namely
| something that recently came to my attention - the beepberry.
| They are currently out of stock but this is something I'd adore.
| Get Kali running on it, and I want two immediately: toss one in
| my car and one in my backpack. I cannot even begin to describe
| how useful this would be. Then again - kind of a niche problem
| which is a subset of a relatively small niche to begin with -
| consumer sbc.
| N1ckFG wrote:
| Based on price/performance alone an 8GB RPi 4 doesn't make
| sense even in its own category--it can't compete with an Nvidia
| Jetson. But if you're doing a lot of Pi work then the more
| expensive models earn their keep as dev machines. (Multiple
| compiler threads can actually use that RAM, and there are
| situations where transpiling on a desktop can't help.)
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