[HN Gopher] Finland Electricity Prices Flip Negative After Glut ...
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Finland Electricity Prices Flip Negative After Glut of
Hydroelectric Power
Author : DocFeind
Score : 19 points
Date : 2023-05-27 17:54 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.businessinsider.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.businessinsider.com)
| euroderf wrote:
| Finland has multiple interconnects to neighboring nations. So
| how's them energy export revenues ?
| skrause wrote:
| Probably nowhere to export to because other countries don't
| need the energy either. Electricity prices flipped deep into
| the negative in Germany as well because there is just so much
| renewable energy during these sunny days: https://www.energy-
| charts.info/charts/price_spot_market/char...
| Gwypaas wrote:
| Sweden has been continously exporting ~1-2 GW to Finland due to
| the hole OL3 caused in the grid due to the 14 year delay.
| There's no need for the power anywhere Finland can export it.
| kuratkull wrote:
| Estonia (just south of Finland) just dropped to negative too a
| week ago. When comparing December and April, the reason it
| actually costs <0 is that all the solar panels in the country are
| producing more than we can consume on weekends, inside the week
| it's often 0 when there's sunshine. In December we were paying
| through our nose for electricity and there was even a slight
| panic about it. I appreciate nuclear power, but I'm not sure it's
| the primary factor in Finland.
| didgetmaster wrote:
| Are the electrical grids in northern Europe not interconnected?
| It would seem that if one country happens to be producing more
| energy than its people currently needs, then it should be able to
| sell the excess to other countries where that is not the case.
| fifilura wrote:
| A part of it (as my other comment) is that Sweden produce heaps
| of wind power today. So there is not much point to export in
| that direction.
|
| But the limitation here is the power grid. The cables to
| southern Sweden and south Norway can not handle the export.
|
| And the cables to Germany is even more strained. Some say that
| this is good for us because otherwise our electricity price
| would have been much higher last winter.
| eesmith wrote:
| They are. Here are the grids.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continenta...
|
| But there's only so much power you can transmit over the
| interconnects. If I read the list right, in 2019 Finland could
| generate 17.3 GW but only transfer 3.9 GW out of the country.
| Going further requires going through even more interconnects,
| which might have even lower capacity.
|
| There are long-term goals to increase capacity. There's also
| opposition to those increases.
| dragontamer wrote:
| Even the USA grid is fragmented.
|
| There seem to be limits on efficient transmission and
| synchronization of power on the grid.
|
| Connections to import or export excess power are limited in
| practice. Finding local storage options (pumped hydro,
| compressed air, etc. Etc.) seems key.
|
| --------
|
| Local grids can use the free market (ex: negative prices
| electricity) to encourage use or savings from the public. Ex,
| electric car owners can wait for negative electricity before
| charging. At least, in theory they could.
|
| It's all a bit handwavey and futuristic. But these things are
| possible if we solve a few key issues over the next decade.
|
| Energy storage could be partially solved by load shifting: we
| kindly ask and encourage chargers at certain time,
| washer/driers or even AC with $$$ incentives to reward those
| who load shift.
|
| It can also be attacked with utility scale storage. And finally
| additional export/import power lines to other grids.
| londgine wrote:
| What does negative electricity price even mean? Is it really
| worth while for power companies to pay people to receive
| electricity over their electrical infrastructure? Would it not be
| cheaper to drive a metal rod into the ground and send it there?
|
| > In practice, it doesn't appear any ordinary Finns are being
| paid to consume electricity. People pay a markup on the
| electricity, and often pay agreed rates for power instead of the
| raw market price.
|
| Or am I completely misunderstanding negative priced electricity?
| Is it just a clickbait term?
| dragontamer wrote:
| The USA at least has multiple markets for electricity, even on
| the same grid.
|
| The day-ahead market prices electricity based on projections.
| This helps utility companies figure out how much to spin up
| peaker plants or maybe the local Pumped Hydro station the hours
| of the day they should release water to generate electricity.
|
| I don't think the day-ahead market ever goes negative.
|
| But the day-of market, maybe just an hour ahead of any
| particular time, needs finer balance that these big systems
| can't react to in time. This price of electricity the hour of
| use is often negative.
|
| It exists because yesterday's projection wasn't perfect and
| there is too much electricity on the grid right now.
|
| Some systems can react instantly, but if those instant reaction
| systems are all used up, it's cheaper to pay negative.
|
| --------
|
| Ex: a hydro dam also is juggling the water needs of the
| community downstream. They cannot send too much, or too little
| water. They are already set on dropping 100 tons of water today
| at 10am and cannot change their plans.
|
| So someone else needs to catch all that electricity that will
| be generated from that event. You can't just 'not drop the
| water', because people downstream will not get their water.
| hotpotamus wrote:
| My understanding was that it sometimes happens in the
| commercial market - there's some inertia in large power systems
| and so sometimes it can help balance things out to pay someone
| to sink electricity. I read something about this in a paper
| discussing the economics of grid-scale batteries - basically
| they can potentially make lots of money by playing both ends of
| the market and can switch on/off with incredible speed compared
| to other generation.
| londgine wrote:
| but how can sending power through the lines, and then paying
| someone to accept it really be cheaper for the power company
| than simply sending it to ground?
| dragontamer wrote:
| You know that when you send 10MW of power to ground, all
| the wires will just melt.... Right?
|
| Maybe not even melt. The copper might skip the liquid phase
| and just vaporize to gas at those temperatures.
|
| --------
|
| Power to ground doesn't just mean wasting electricity. It
| also means perfectly turning that energy into heat.
|
| We are screwed by thermodynamics. Energy is never wasted,
| just converted to different forms. We usually call heat
| waste but in utility scale power design (Megawatts+) it's
| not easy to find energy sinks in practice that can absorb
| excess energy generated.
|
| -------
|
| In practice, you want the generators to stop making
| electricity (at least, the generators that __can__ stop in
| time). But some equipment cant stop in time to respond to
| the hourly electricity market.
| caminante wrote:
| Contractual obligations and grid security trump
| counterparty economics.
|
| You have traders taking/offloading risk.
|
| I'm not familiar with this micro-market, but power prices
| go negative in the US frequently where tax incentives make
| it profitable to operate renewables plants at prices <
| -$20/MWh.
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| It generally means "I (as the owner of a coal or nuclear plant)
| don't want to reduce my output on a short timescale as that has
| costs for me, so I'd rather pay someone to take the energy".
|
| They mention the hydro dams, but I'm assuming they all have
| spillways for shedding water without generating electricity,
| which they would use if forced to pay to generate.
|
| Since we already have a grid, it doesn't make monetary sense
| for every such onflexible producer to invest in their own
| flexibility unless they can do it for cheaper than the market
| rate of paying what is effectively a fine every so often.
| caminante wrote:
| The article could be more clear. BI is just recycling other
| articles.
|
| I doubt you get paid to take electricity in the simple sense
| and presume it's more similar to pricing situations in the US
| where it's a price signal (penalty) for congesting the grid but
| few plants are injecting, unless they're reaping tax
| incentives.
|
| 1. Wholesale spot energy prices don't include transmission
| charges and other non-energy costs.
|
| 2. Don't forget someone might've contracted for that power so
| regardless of the price, they have to physically or financially
| settle.
| fifilura wrote:
| You can get an overview of the electricity situation in the
| nordics here:
|
| https://www.svk.se/om-kraftsystemet/kontrollrummet/
|
| The page is in Swedish, but i am guessing the important
| information is still comprehensible (Vatten = Hydro/Water,
| Karnkraft = Nuclear).
|
| As you can see (if you read this today), the electricity is at
| EUR0 in both Finland, mid/north Sweden and north Norway.
|
| Finland just finished their long awaited nuclear power reactor
| OL3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olkiluoto_Nuclear_Power_Plant
|
| Before the new reactor the normal situation for them would be to
| import some electricity from Sweden/Norway.
|
| What happened today is that Finland's nuclear power is on full
| steam, while wind power in Sweden is producing a lot (more than
| nuclear in both Finland and Sweden a the moment, Sweden has a
| couple of reactors down for maintenance today).
|
| Hydro in Sweden is producing very little today, guessing as
| little as is practically possible.
| eesmith wrote:
| > What happened today is that Finland's nuclear power is on
| full steam,
|
| Really? https://yle.fi/a/74-20032375 from 10 days ago says "The
| output of Finland's newest nuclear power facility, Olkiluoto 3,
| has been significantly cut back because electricity has become
| too cheap" (Was on HN 2 days ago at
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36069517 .)
|
| It goes on to say: "Generally, the amount of electricity
| generated in Finland is regulated by increasing or decreasing
| the amount of hydroelectric power that is used. However, due to
| flood conditions in northern Finland, reducing hydroelectric-
| generated electricity is challenging at the moment."
| fifilura wrote:
| Ok, thanks for pointing out.
|
| Hydro power is rather small in Finland, and it actually seems
| they increased nuclear power from 3.9GW to 4.3GW during the
| day today.
|
| (again: https://www.svk.se/om-kraftsystemet/kontrollrummet/ )
|
| This page says that 4.3 GW is very close to the nuclear
| capacity
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Finland
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(page generated 2023-05-27 23:02 UTC)