[HN Gopher] Is This Octopus Having a Nightmare?
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Is This Octopus Having a Nightmare?
Author : drdee
Score : 27 points
Date : 2023-05-27 03:55 UTC (19 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| throwbadubadu wrote:
| Would that be surprising, or shouldn't that be the default
| assumption that they dream similar like us?
|
| I would swear I have experienced bad dreams of my cat, with
| abrupt movements and mumbled sounds, and then when waking or
| woken up immediately relaxing or even coming cuddling for
| comfort, very similar as with my human partner. Also dreaming in
| general, not just nightmares, is well observable sometimes.
|
| I believe I have read similar stories of other's with cats&dogs,
| too?
| Toutouxc wrote:
| Definitely, I've seen both a dog and a pet rabbit dream, dozens
| of times. It's pretty obvious, sometimes you can even tell
| what's happening in the dream if you know your pet well. You
| can tell if they're eating, running, playing or fighting. My
| rabbit would often have a nightmare and suddenly, violently
| wake up and start thumping her feet. What's interesting is that
| she'd never met a real threat in her life.
| meowface wrote:
| We're all mammals, so that's less surprising. But octopi having
| dreams would imply convergent evolution, I think. It seems they
| may have evolved higher intelligence convergently - which isn't
| too crazy given the obvious utility of intelligence - but I
| wonder what it is about dreams in particular that would make
| them independently appear in different branches.
|
| (Unless it turns out some common ancestor of all of us had
| something like proto-dreams.)
| throwbadubadu wrote:
| > We're all mammals ... But octopi
|
| Ah, good point, got it thanks! Now I need some literature
| about how our brains and nervous systems are different :)
| marcosdumay wrote:
| > Unless it turns out some common ancestor of all of us had
| something like proto-dreams.
|
| It's not clear to me at whether every animal with a nervous
| system dreams. It's something very hard to detect in most
| animals.
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| Birds show evidence of REM sleep and some studies suggest
| they're dreaming.
| seszett wrote:
| Birds are immensely closer to use than octopods though. Our
| last common ancestor was a worm with a very primitive
| nervous system, no brain and not even eyes.
|
| Birds are not mammals but we are still both descended from
| vertebrates with complex brains, at least.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _Our last common ancestor was a worm with a very
| primitive nervous system, no brain and not even eyes._
|
| Does it matter though? In the end octopuses evolved to be
| quite smart. That would imply some similar brain
| development, even if it was being done independently. The
| same way eyes would work and connect to their
| brains/nervous system more or less similarly.
|
| Makes sense to expect design of later developed organs to
| match their function, despite the initial point of
| ancestoral divergence, is my point.
|
| So similar designs for the development of function X that
| work, would be arrived at by many (most? all?)
| independent evolution processes.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _In the end octopuses evolved to be quite smart. That
| would imply some similar brain development, even if it
| was being done independently_
|
| It would be profound if two independently-evolved
| intelligences developed a need to dream.
| coldtea wrote:
| Why would it be any more profound than any other common
| needs or functionality of two independently-evolved
| intelligences? Isn't this assumption begging the
| question?
|
| Only if we a priori consider dreaming something very
| unique, or put it on a pedestal, would this be
| "profound". Whereas it could be an essential attribute of
| intelligent function, a kind of garbage collection from
| the information acquired during the day for example...
| 11235813213455 wrote:
| is that cat captive and in an apartment? (not able to wander
| outside occasionally)
| toasteros wrote:
| Not the original commenter, but I have indoor cats in my
| apartment who can only go out on to the balcony. They have
| very animated dreams sometimes. They'll make whimpering
| sounds that are like muffles versions of the yowls they make
| when agitated and/or playing. Their feet will kick as of
| they're playing with a toy, and sometimes they will suddenly
| awake. Cat 3/3 in particular will awake "confused" and make
| questioning meows at me and my partner, before running to one
| of us as if to say "the heck was that?!".
|
| It's interesting. Is it dreams? If so, are they dreams
| unsettling enough that they look to us for
| reassurance/comfort, or are we just anthropomorphising?
| 11235813213455 wrote:
| imo "pets" shouldn't even exist, same with zoos and
| similar, we should just try to look at wild animals
| outside, learn to approach and communicate with them. In
| captivity we can have plants, that's fine
| erentz wrote:
| Video without the paywall: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-
| news/octopuses-may-have...
| Dalewyn wrote:
| According to Betteridge's Law of Headlines:
|
| No.
|
| Next question (and screw clickbait).
| lxe wrote:
| Looks like he's having a seizure for all I know. The paper is
| mostly a discussion of observed footage, and making guesses
| without presenting evidence that these episodes are actually
| linked with nightmares.
| dmix wrote:
| Could there be an equivalent of a brain scan for Octopus like
| animals? Given its in water and all.
|
| You could probably compare his brain activity to normal sleep
| states.
|
| Edit: turns out a linked article here mentions that
|
| > Where do you put electrodes on an animal that has no shape?"
| study co-author Marcelo Magnasco, also a neuroscientist at The
| Rockefeller University, tells New Scientist.
| m3kw9 wrote:
| Until you get the octopus to talk to you proper, we won't know
| zvmaz wrote:
| We can infer.
| 11235813213455 wrote:
| not very surprising if an animal in captivity would get mad /
| claustrophobic, whether in nightmare or daymare
| DethNinja wrote:
| Animals definitely do dream, any cat or dog owner can tell that
| but even smaller animals like rats do also dream.
|
| We are vastly overestimating the cognitive capacities of humans,
| we should in fact have higher respect for other intelligent
| species living with us.
| wilg wrote:
| Yeah I'm confused by this, isn't it commonly understood animals
| dream? What other explanation is there for my dog moving her
| sweet little feet and barking softly while she's asleep
| sometimes.
| dmix wrote:
| The brain structure / nervous system of cephalpods is quite
| different from vertebrate species I'm pretty sure. A lot of
| the similarities of the complexity/development are based on
| convergent evolution. So it's not as straightforward of a
| comparison. At least in this context.
|
| https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2018.0095.
| ..
| wilg wrote:
| not a direct rebuttal, but I would watch a game show called
| "are you smarter than an octopus"
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| overestimating our abilities and underestimating everyone
| else's seems like part of the human condition really
| User23 wrote:
| I think you're vastly underestimating the cognitive capacities
| of humans. It's not a matter of respect. A healthy three year
| old already meets or exceeds any animal in cognitive ability,
| including the ability to improvise tools to solve multi-step
| problems, pass the mirror test, and know some words.
|
| Human supremacy is an empirical fact. A little 120 pound guy
| can hop on the back of an elephant and boss it around for life.
| I've seen 100 pound women make killer whales beg for treats. If
| anything we don't have near enough respect for our own awesome
| power over the other creatures we share this world with.
| campallison wrote:
| Anyone who agrees with or is intrigued by the above comment may
| very well enjoy Frans De Waal's book, Are We Smart Enough to
| Know How Smart Animals Are? Publisher link:
| https://wwnorton.com/books/Are-We-Smart-Enough-to-Know-How-S...
| jprd wrote:
| "You know nothing, Jon Snow."
| metadat wrote:
| https://archive.today/azaZw
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