[HN Gopher] New work helps to explain how chronic stress can inf...
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New work helps to explain how chronic stress can inflame the gut
Author : pseudolus
Score : 217 points
Date : 2023-05-26 03:54 UTC (19 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nature.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com)
| abernard1 wrote:
| I would just like to point out that in the space of two decades
| we've whipsawed between "ulcers aren't caused by stress, they're
| caused by bacteria" to "no actually ulcers might really be mainly
| caused by stress."
|
| Many such cases. I once wondered whether my decision to not
| pursue a PhD in physics was a mistake, but I increasingly believe
| we live in a Dark Ages. It is impossible to take the vapid
| Science as an institution seriously, especially when it embraces
| this myth of science being constantly correct.
|
| (And yes, I understand there's a difference between scientific
| press and actual scientists. And no, you're wrong if you think
| their self-esteem or general sheltered Mickey Mouse worldview
| around their importance is any different than the public press.)
| kortex wrote:
| > "ulcers aren't caused by stress, they're caused by bacteria"
| to "no actually ulcers might really be mainly caused by
| stress."
|
| Por que no los dos? H. pylori needs to artificially buffer its
| micro-environment in order to survive. Anything which disrupts
| the production of stomach acid or digestive proteins could give
| it an edge.
|
| Anecdata of 1, but I had a bout of bad chronic heartburn after
| eating at some sketchy food joint. I was popping omeprazole
| like crazy. Somehow in researching this, the topic of hydrogen
| forming bacteria came up. I somehow hypothesized that PPIs were
| actually exacerbating the problem, because the higher pH was
| allowing the bacteria to survive. I put myself on a high
| prebiotic/probiotic diet, stopped the PPIs and antacids, and it
| resolved completely by a few weeks later. I could easily see a
| similar thing happening with heliobacter.
| throwaway4220 wrote:
| Ulcers are not all the same just like cancer is not all the
| same. H pylori still causes gastric ulcers.
|
| Also the "medical-science" institution you are imagining with a
| collective self-esteem doesn't exist in any cohesive way. You
| memorize, read, diagnose and treat.
|
| And please don't lump us in with phDs
| spondylosaurus wrote:
| Could the ulcer question just vary based on the type of ulcer?
| I know that h. pylori _is_ a big culprit in people who have
| ulcers but are otherwise healthy, but IBD causes ulcers too
| (putting the "ulcerative" in "ulcerative colitis")--and since
| stress is a driver of IBD flares, those are certainly ulcers by
| way of stress. But they occur in different portions of the gut,
| usually.
| throwaway4220 wrote:
| Yes ulcers are just erosions of the inner layers of stuff.
| You can have ulcers in your arteries too.
| joker_minmax wrote:
| Absolutely does, there are multiple causes of ulcers. Canker
| sores in your mouth are caused by either stress or vitamin
| deficiency and they're still "ulcers". And what H. Pylori
| does is a huge cause of gastric cancer, so pathogens damaging
| the body is a factor. I agree with the top comment of this
| tree that we can't see science as set in stone, but many
| things have multiple causes that work separately or
| synergistically
| zoogeny wrote:
| I have a friend who is a Nurse Practitioner. In Canada this is
| pretty close to a doctor in that they can order tests, diagnose
| patients and prescribe treatments and medications. She was in
| private practice for a while.
|
| She talks often about how the most common complaint she saw by
| far is gut distress with no medical cause. It is so common that
| the medical professionals call it SLS: Shit Life Syndrome [1].
| She argues that the vast majority of the people who come in with
| this complaint have an undiagnosed mental problem. Our systems
| aren't built to handle this kind of situation. We find and treat
| acute problems and we don't really address holistic life-style
| issues. In fact, it is frowned upon. What she usually wants to
| say is: your life sucks, fix it and you will feel better. Go out
| for a walk, eat healthier food, make some supportive friends,
| engage in some self-care, meditate, etc.
|
| I personally believe that a lack of purpose in people's lives is
| manifesting as pain in our bodies. But that is dangerously close
| to woo-woo New Age thinking and most people will just reject it
| off-hand. Instead they will try magnesium pills, apple cider
| vinegar, avoiding gluten, anti-inflammatory diets, micro-dosing
| lsd or mushrooms.
|
| As a side note, she also mentioned that the newest fad (not quite
| at gut distress levels yet) is middle-aged men insisting they
| have ADHD, demanding diagnosis and prescriptions.
|
| 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit_life_syndrome
| CharlesW wrote:
| > _As a side note, she also mentioned that the newest fad (not
| quite at gut distress levels yet) is middle-aged men insisting
| they have ADHD..._
|
| The reason for this "fad" is straightforward -- there are a
| _lot_ of middle-aged humans who are undiagnosed because ADHD
| was effectively "not a thing" when GenX were kids.
|
| > _...demanding diagnosis and prescriptions._
|
| Great! People of all ages should advocate for themselves and
| pursue health care that might improve their quality of life.
| 0xcde4c3db wrote:
| > The reason for this "fad" is straightforward -- there are a
| lot of middle-aged humans who are undiagnosed because ADHD
| was effectively "not a thing" when GenX were kids.
|
| Or to the extent that it was, they only knew of it through
| narrow or outright inaccurate stereotypes. It's become a
| somewhat common story over the past few years in online ADHD
| communities for Gen X and older Millennial parents to get
| their kid diagnosed and have a "wait, that's not normal?"
| reaction to the explanation of how the condition actually
| tends to manifest.
| roundandround wrote:
| But I think it was normal. Would modern undiagnosed
| children have flourished in less institutional settings? I
| think being on the dangerous edge used to be safer than
| being insufficiently experienced in dangers that were
| unavoidable and in many cases predatory.
| rightbyte wrote:
| ADHD have symtoms that could fit anyone. It is about a
| threshold.
| zoogeny wrote:
| I think "advocate for themselves" can be reductive. There is
| a spectrum of advocacy.
|
| One approach is to work with a medical team over time to
| document symptoms and impact on your life, experiment and
| document attempted treatment alternatives, escalate to
| appropriate specialists as necessary, etc.
|
| Another approach is to spend a weekend reading blog posts,
| forums and chatting with your bros, then convincing yourself
| of a particular syndrome/disease you must have, urgently
| scheduling an appointment with a brand new medical
| practitioner, refusing to discuss your medical history or
| symptoms since you already know everything, demanding a
| particular and specific treatment, refusing to discuss
| alternatives and then becoming hostile and aggressive when
| that practitioner doesn't immediately write you a
| prescription for the particular medication or expensive test
| that you have already decided that you need.
|
| That second approach is a caricature that unfortunately
| approaches a modern reality, and it isn't what I'd term as
| "Great!" for anyone involved. The first approach is equally
| horrible since our system is so back-logged that the amount
| of time and personal effort between starting the process and
| receiving the help you need is onerous.
|
| Note that this applies equally well to gastro-intestinal
| distress as it does to ADHD or any other chronic condition.
| CharlesW wrote:
| > _There is a spectrum of advocacy._
|
| There are plenty of "pill mills" and "scrip doctors", and
| plenty of patients who will abuse that gray-market system.
| That is not what I'm referring to when I talk about self-
| advocacy by people who need actual, legitimate help.
| southwesterly wrote:
| Middle aged man with ADHD here. Just found out. Didn't want it.
| Although it explains a lot of my almost 50 previous years. I am
| now sad.
| voisin wrote:
| > What she usually wants to say is: your life sucks, fix it and
| you will feel better. Go out for a walk, eat healthier food,
| make some supportive friends, engage in some self-care,
| meditate, etc.
|
| It's almost like we haven't collectively created a society that
| aims to increase human flourishing and instead of created a
| living nightmare with the illusion of progress due to shiny new
| technologies.
| broguinn wrote:
| This, so much this. My family often jokes about how I'm the
| health and fitness "freak", because I care about my wellbeing
| and stress levels. However, this is very normal in my social
| circle - and I would argue - in my class and generation. A
| few examples come to mind:
|
| - The rise of social/fitness loci. Young people socialize
| through sports, cycling groups, climbing gyms. - The advent
| of data-driven fitness. So many people have wearables, sleep
| trackers, follow the science behind health (Huberman podcast,
| Rhonda Patrick, etc.). - More people are opting for healthier
| living, generally (regular bedtimes, stopping or greatly
| limiting drinking, removing stigma from mental health
| diagnoses).
|
| It feels like this generation is the first to really
| prioritize physical wellbeing as a primary driver of overall
| quality of life. I sincerely hope this trend sticks, and we
| look back 20 years from now and are surprised that so many
| people for so long neglected the fundamentals of health.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| > _middle-aged men insisting they have ADHD, demanding
| diagnosis and prescriptions._
|
| My opinions on the matter, as someone with ADHD, is that I do
| not personally believe that treatments that can improve one's
| life should be gatekeeped (gatekept?) sheerly by disorders. In
| other words, if people have symptoms and medicine has the tools
| to treat said symptoms, then such tools should be used
| regardless of the condition. If one is struggling to achieve a
| life that is within their potential, then why should they be
| denied something that can assist them? It would be like saying,
| "only paraplegic people are allowed to use wheelchairs. It
| doesn't matter if your legs are broken, they still technically
| work, thus you don't deserve to use a wheelchair." It's not
| like various psychostimulants commonly used for ADHD weren't
| used for 70+ years prior to being indicated for ADHD and other
| conditions.
|
| Personally, I have always hated the false dichotomy of either
| one having ADHD or not. I do not think it's that simple, and it
| is surely not a binary condition. The condition is nothing more
| than a label assigned to an arbitrary set of symptoms. Even the
| diagnostic criteria is not all encompassing of the many
| symptoms people with the condition struggle with.
|
| Just thinking about the various people I know in my life, I
| would confidently say not all them have equal attention spans,
| executive functioning, etc.. So, what's the arbitrary cut-off?
|
| Another issue that ADHD (and many other conditions) is that
| there is absolutely no way beyond a reasonable doubt to prove
| who has the condition and who does not. There is not a single
| biomarker -- no gene test, no urinalysis, no blood marker, no
| fMRI brain scan, etc. that can be used to definitely diagnose
| the condition in a clinical setting. The diagnosis is just a
| professional and clinically informed opinion using heuristics.
|
| How was I diagnosed? I went through a gauntlet of exhausting
| interviews and somewhat pseudo-scientific psychometrics -- WAIS
| IV IQ test, Stop/Go test, and plenty of others that I cannot
| remember the name of. It's about as legitimate as one can hope
| for currently... or at least a decade ago.
|
| With all the being said, I definitely think it's a completely
| real condition, I just think we are operating on a model
| similar to the Plum Pudding Model of the atom -- it's not
| completely wrong, but definitely not correct -- but it's the
| best we have at the moment. The question I often ask myself is
| that, "Is there something actually wrong with me, or is
| something wrong with the world we live in?" For me personally,
| this disorder has no negative health affects other than making
| me completely incompatible with this world. I mean, I'm within
| in the range of average height for adults males. My height
| causes me no issues in my life. However, if I were to play in
| the NBA, it would cause all kinds of issues. Does that mean I
| would have a height deficit disorder?
|
| One more thing about the medications, people have no idea what
| they are messing with. Sure, stimulants would help a majority
| of people be more productive (caffeine/nicotine are common for
| a reason), but nothing in life is without a cost. They
| absolutely help me live a life that I would unlikely be able to
| without them. That doesn't mean they are sunshine and roses. In
| some ways, I feel like I made a deal with the Devil. I have had
| many friends with ADHD and many friends without ADHD that lied
| to get access to the medications too. I've seen these
| medications help people reach the heavens, and I have seen
| these medications drag people through utter Hell.
|
| Anyway, sorry if this is all over the place and somewhat
| pointless. I do have ADHD after all. ;)
| zoogeny wrote:
| I really appreciate this response.
|
| > I do not personally believe that treatments that can
| improve one's life should be gatekeeped (gatekept?) sheerly
| by disorders
|
| In my most libertarian moments I totally agree. But I also
| accept (even if I don't agree) that a large number of people
| believe that the detriments to society as a whole (including
| to some individuals in particular) caused by the misuse of
| powerful and addictive substances outweighs the benefits of
| un-controlled access.
|
| > How was I diagnosed? I went through a gauntlet of
| exhausting interviews and somewhat pseudo-scientific
| psychometrics -- WAIS IV IQ test, Stop/Go test, and plenty of
| others that I cannot remember the name of. It's about as
| legitimate as one can hope for currently... or at least a
| decade ago.
|
| The "fad" I was talking about was individuals showing up to a
| medical professional and having the totally unrealistic
| expectation that after a one hour consultation they would be
| diagnosed with a severe mental disorder and that they would
| walk out that same day with a prescription for a controlled
| stimulant.
|
| The real path to treatment in our system is much more
| difficult. You have to demonstrate and document a history of
| symptoms and their effects on your life. It can take 6-12
| months in many places to get into a specialist like a
| psychiatrist. Then it can take many more months of
| experimentation with alternative treatments before being
| prescribed medications.
|
| That path is, frankly, atrocious. We are so starved for
| qualified resources that the system purposely slows things
| down. If you are able to work and live life even minimally -
| you are low on the priority list in many cases. There are
| enough truly horrible cases (severe schizophrenia, bipolar,
| etc.) that involve people unable to function at all that
| those who are merely suffering can get ignored. Front-line
| medical workers gate-keep access to specialists out of
| necessity, not out of malicious intent.
|
| The patience you demonstrated to get the help you need is
| commendable but also proof that the system delivers for those
| who need it.
|
| The alternative path that many choose to take is to become
| hostile, aggressive or abusive. They refuse to push through
| the system or to even attempt alternatives. They demand a
| specific diagnosis and a precise medication and they get
| angry when they don't get it.
|
| > In some ways, I feel like I made a deal with the Devil.
|
| This is is one reason why the system pushes people to try
| every alternative possible before going down the route of
| medication. If someone can find any alternative to medication
| to manage their symptoms - they ought to avoid the diagnosis
| and avoid the medicine.
|
| It is just the case that many possible alternatives,
| including life-style changes, are explicitly forbidden to
| talk about. So while the medical practitioner may want to
| say: you need better friends, a better job, a better life in
| general ... they often cannot. Nor are some aggressive and
| hostile people willing to listen even if they could.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| > _But I also accept (even if I don 't agree) that a large
| number of people believe that the detriments to society as
| a whole (including to some individuals in particular)
| caused by the misuse of powerful and addictive substances
| outweighs the benefits of un-controlled access._
|
| I completely understand where you are coming from. I really
| think it is a detrimental society that pushes people into
| that direction. I have noticed that I mainly take
| stimulants due to the demands of other people. Do I care if
| my project is not completed on time? No. Does my employer?
| Absolutely. I wouldn't be surprised if some of that
| parallels with others. I hate having to kill myself from
| the inside out just to function in this world, but I do
| what I have to do in order to survive.
|
| > _The real path to treatment in our system is much more
| difficult. You have to demonstrate and document a history
| of symptoms and their effects on your life. It can take
| 6-12 months in many places to get into a specialist like a
| psychiatrist. Then it can take many more months of
| experimentation with alternative treatments before being
| prescribed medications._
|
| This is where I had a wildly different experience. I guess
| it is probably because I am not part of the "fad" you are
| talking about. However, my university had a psych on staff.
| I scheduled an appointment with him, and I saw him in like
| a couple days afterwards. He did a basic interview with me,
| and based on just my behaviors, mannerisms, etc.. He
| chuckled and said, "You are _so_ ADHD. However, I need to
| you undergo formal testing out of policy, you should go to
| <insert name of place.>"
|
| So, I scheduled an appointment, and did all the
| interviewing testing in two or three sessions, and I was
| being treated in like two weeks or less. Alternative
| treatments were actually never even attempted nor
| suggested. It was straight to medications.
|
| I've still not had many issues getting into doctors, and
| perhaps I am just very lucky in that regard. I recently
| left my most recent psych and moved to my GP. He will only
| treat me because I have a formal diagnosis (e.g.
| documentation "proving" it). If a psych or another doctor
| diagnosed me and treated me, that would not be sufficient
| because my GP claims there wouldn't be enough "evidence" to
| prove I have the condition. So, I do feel bad for many
| people who were diagnosed in less formal ways.
|
| I am all for the alternative path, and I am starting to
| investigate how to go down that path. I have not been very
| thrilled with psychiatrist. I have many qualms with how
| psychiatry as a field operates. I am not anti-medicine by
| any means, but I have never seen nor heard of such a
| punitive and unscientific field of medicine. Never forget,
| it's the only field of medicine that can make patients take
| medicine against their will and involuntarily hold someone
| against their will.
|
| If you are diabetic, a doctor can prescribe you insulin,
| but the doctor cannot force you to take the medication. The
| doctor cannot not commit you despite the fact that
| abstaining from insulin would cause direct harm.
| Psychiatrist, however, do have that option depending on the
| case and the patient.
|
| I have seen around 10 or more psychs/psych NPs in my life.
| I have always hated how I have had to walk on eggshells
| around them, so to speak. I feel like they have never taken
| ADHD seriously and that they act like they are doing me a
| favor and that I should get on my knees and kiss their
| feet. Medication not working well? Don't you fucking dare
| ask for a dosage increase -- what are you some kind of
| addict?
|
| Not to mention all the random drug tests. Do they test for
| alcohol or tobacco -- two of the most damaging substances
| on the planet? Absolutely not. Take CBD with negligible
| amounts of THC, but enough to pop hot on a urinalysis?
| Doesn't matter, you are a drug addict. Kiss your
| prescription, your job, and your life stability good bye.
| In fact, my previous practice would refuse to treat you and
| would kick you out of their practice. We had to sign
| "Controlled Substance Agreements" and all this other
| horseshit.
|
| Substance Use Disorders are so correlated with ADHD that
| they are damn near a symptom of untreated ADHD in
| teens/adults. What field of medicine punishes patients for
| a medical disorder -- isn't a SUD a valid medical
| condition? Should a diabetic have their treatment revoked
| due to a SUD? Not to mention, ADHD medication has plenty of
| research to back that it does not worsen and may prevent
| the development of SUDs in people with ADHD.
|
| > So while the medical practitioner may want to say: you
| need better friends, a better job, a better life in general
| ... they often cannot.
|
| I completely agree. In fact, I have noticed that myself. I
| am quite depressed as of lately, however I do not think
| there is something wrong with me. In fact, it's the
| opposite. My mind/body is working correctly. I am not in a
| good place -- miserable job, almost no social life, no
| hobbies, no goals, no passions, etc.. I mean, who wouldn't
| be depressed? However, I have been making small steps in
| the right direction (this isn't my first rodeo). I beat
| depressions ass many times before, and I will do it again.
| I refuse medication for it because I feel it would hinder
| my from making the right steps, and would rather sedate me
| enough to tolerate my shit situation -- it's what happened
| last time.
|
| > If someone can find any alternative to medication to
| manage their symptoms - they ought to avoid the diagnosis
| and avoid the medicine.
|
| I support this practice too. I do not think medication
| should be the go-to unless it is completely warranted.
| Besides, I hate to say it, but honestly, I am not really
| sure the ADHD meds work all that well to begin with. I
| often joke that I swear they work better for people without
| ADHD than those with it.
|
| I mean, are they better than nothing? Absolutely. I still
| take them for a reason. However, they are far from a silver
| bullet. I feel like I get about 25%-50% reduction in
| symptoms, which is enough to help me achieve stability to
| some degree, but I wish they worked better. The average
| non-ADHD person is still probably far more productive than
| I am. Thus, I have been really been considering alternative
| approaches. It just seems no matter what I do I will always
| revert to the mean. Maybe that's just how I am supposed to
| be. =)
|
| This disorder and the trauma that is has caused me will
| probably always hold me back in life. But hey, in the grand
| scheme of life, I have a lot to be thankful for, and I am
| lucky I do not have a worse condition. I'll never be a
| FAANG developer or work at some fancy start-up, but there
| is more to living a good life than a maxed out career.
| beardyw wrote:
| Doesn't answer my question - why? Is there no point to any of it?
| frereubu wrote:
| In mice.
| orzig wrote:
| Did anybody else seem to get better after COVID forced a work
| from home?
|
| I did not think of my commute as especially bad, nor any other
| part of being in the office, but the timing is pretty
| coincidental
| st4lz wrote:
| I had some gut issues and switching jobs to WFH friendly made
| it all gone away. It's much easier to change your bad habits
| when you have more control of your environment. It wasn't in
| COVID times though, it was around 2015.
| kortex wrote:
| I actually did great for the first few months after switching
| to WFH, until other stressors overrode any benefit and messed
| me up in other ways.
| spondylosaurus wrote:
| After a really really bad (prolonged) work situation, I started
| getting wicked acid reflux--with a very clear trigger between
| stress and subsequent symptoms. I remember at one point opening a
| passive-aggressive email from my boss and instantly feeling like
| a battery had exploded in my mouth.
|
| The reflux never went away, even after my work situation
| improved, and some other gastrointestinal symptoms worsened until
| I recently got diagnosed with Crohn's disease. Which I am
| genetically predisposed towards, but I still like to say that my
| shitty boss gave me Crohn's (and not entirely in jest).
|
| Although drugs have helped both issues immensely, I will say
| there's a pretty substantial link between my symptoms and bouts
| of stress. A lot of people with IBD (and to some extent, IBS) are
| all too aware of the paradox that if you spend too much time
| worrying about the possibility of a flare-up, you're all but
| guaranteed to have a flare-up. The tummy is a fickle beast!
| orzig wrote:
| One big open question for me is what my body counts as stress.
| I have had short, objectively stressful situations, which had
| no impact. My longer-term stresses feel like they are more of
| the style "it's a job, that is why they pay you" but switching
| jobs might have helped? It's not like I can do that enough to
| get statistical significance. And I don't think an outside
| observer would consider my new job definitely less stressful
| than my old one, but there might be some dimension, which is
| really important to some subconscious part of me. And I don't
| think an outside observer would consider my new job definitely
| less stressful than my old one, but there might be some
| dimension which is really important to some subconscious part
| of me.
|
| That's part of the reason that I resisted the stress
| explanation for so long: even if you accept it in general, it's
| very unclear what to do about it, so I wanted to keep exploring
| more tangible causes
| [deleted]
| gareth_untether wrote:
| I've often wondered if huge amounts of stress as a child could
| cause celiac disease, or be one of the factors. As the child's
| body is developing, having parents go through a divorce or
| experiencing a death in the family, could create life long
| physiological effects.
| ImHereToVote wrote:
| Kids are simply raised in a fairly fragile way, where
| strengthening psychological resilience is completely ignored in
| the upbringing process.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Psychological resilience is difficult to study directly or
| even define, since experimental isolation or testing of it in
| children is almost definitionally unethical.
|
| But what a large body of research shows is that the most
| psychologically resilient adults are those who were _not_
| forced to demonstrate emotional fortitude in childhood. This
| makes intuitive sense too, otherwise you 'd expect to see
| adult children of addicts, war orphans, grown child soldiers
| etc having the most stable temperaments, a thing that is just
| notoriously not the case.
| [deleted]
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Van der Kolk's and other similar research seems to show a
| pretty strong correlation between childhood trauma/ptsd and
| adult inflammation disorders. IIRC the gut link gets a small
| chapter in the famous book he wrote about that research.
| yosito wrote:
| For the past few years, I've had gut issues with a very unclear
| root cause. I was definitely under an insane amount of chronic
| stress due to the pandemic and isolation when the issues started,
| but after isolation ended and my life should have been less
| stressful the issues persisted. Some doctors seemed to take this
| gut-brain connection thing to mean that it was all in my head
| since they couldn't find anything medically wrong with me. That
| was incredibly frustrating because I was experiencing real
| physical issues like weight loss, hair loss, bloating,
| indigestion, etc. But all of the tests and biopsies they did came
| back normal. With functional medicine and a lot of trial and
| error with diet and lifestyle changes I've gotten to a point
| where I feel pretty much recovered, though still with a very
| sensitive gut. I never discovered the root cause of my problems.
| My leading theories are long-covid, non-celiac gluten
| sensitivity, or chronic stress. Possibly a combo of those things.
|
| All of that being context, the thing I wonder about this is, if
| chronic stress does indeed inflame the gut, what does the process
| of reversing that inflammation look like? It doesn't seem like
| you can simply remove environmental stressors to undo the
| inflammation. It seems that there are feedback loops and damage
| that occur that can take awhile to undo. When someone has a
| stressful life, it can be difficult just to reduce the amount of
| stress, much less completely redesign their life to be less
| stressful. And gut inflammation makes it even harder. Even if
| they manage to do so, say perhaps by taking a year long
| sabbatical if they can afford to do so, removing the stress may
| not be an instant solution.
|
| I hope more research is done in the area of healing from gut
| inflammation triggered by chronic stress.
| doix wrote:
| If you want to go a bit off the traditional path, you can look
| into BPC-157 which is a peptide that was designed to help heal
| the gut. Nowadays it's mostly used by athletes and anti-aging
| people to help heal soft tissue damage, but the original
| purpose was to heal your gut.
|
| If you're in the US, you can probably find an anti-aging clinic
| with a doctor that you could ask about it.
| yosito wrote:
| I went way off the beaten path and got into peptides by way
| of kambo. It's an indigenous medicine that's very
| controversial with very little controlled scientific
| research, but it actually made a dramatic difference for me.
| Might look for into peptide injections, though it's harder to
| find them in my home country (Hungary).
| dombesz wrote:
| The main problem is with stress + gut issues, it's a downward
| spiraling feedback loop. Stress causes gut irritation, gut
| irritation makes you more stressed. I suggest going to a
| gastroenterolog, that knows about gut flora restoration.
| Basically you'll get a Low-FODMAP diet for a month, then RENEW
| diet for ~1 year, but you will also get a bunch of special
| probiotics, mostly based on Bacillus Subtilis.
|
| During this time the negative feedback loop is being broken,
| the gut will have a chance to recover and the symptoms should
| improve/disappear.
|
| I am slowly finishing this diet and I have to say that apart
| from a few ups and downs, it helped me tremendously. I have
| much more energy during the day, less oily skin and hair,
| smoother skin on my face, and consistent stool.
| XorNot wrote:
| I got recommended on a previous HN thread to try an L. Reuteri
| probiotic. This is the one I took:
| https://www.biogaia.com/product/biogaia-protectis-
| chewable-t.... There's decent clinical evidence for an
| effect[1].
|
| The change in my gut health has been _astounding_. There was a
| period about 1.5 months after I started taking it when things
| definitely felt worse (which I guess is about the time the
| bacterial colonization was underway) but since then I 've felt
| so much better it's incredible. About 1.5 years now with it as
| my standard and improvement is consistent.
|
| Now for me this was a big improvement, but it works better (for
| me anyway) when paired with Questran Lite[2] which is
| prescription (at least in Australia) but has become the darling
| of GI doctors because it seems to have good results in
| improving gut health. I was on it _before_ I started the L.
| Reuteri, but things only improved once I added the probiotic
| in.
|
| So - in order: try L. Reuteri supplements for about 6 months
| (because it's OTC). If the gut inflammation is an issue there's
| evidence that they will in fact help reverse it. If things are
| still somewhat not great, get a Questran Lite prescription
| (though there's actually a global shortage going on now).
|
| The L. Reuteri theoretically you don't need to keep taking, and
| I did try going off them for about 6 months recently, and was
| mostly fine but eventually started seeing some regression so
| started taking them again.
|
| [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5917019/
|
| [2] https://www.news-medical.net/drugs/Questran-Lite.aspx
| yosito wrote:
| I tried L. Reuteri. Probably heard about it on HN too haha.
| But for me that one didn't seem to make much difference. I
| had really good luck with BB536 though.
| wolfpack_mick wrote:
| You might want to read 'The Lady's Handbook for Her Mysterious
| Illness: A Memoir' by Sarah Ramey (Known also from her band
| Wolf Larsen). She goes back and forth between providing an
| overview of this 'mysterious illness' from different angles,
| and her gutwrenching absolute trainwreck of a personal
| experience of it. It seems you already found your way the same
| way she eventually did, though.
|
| As the title says, the book is womens body specific - but also
| a guy i still found it very insightful to read.
| chiefalchemist wrote:
| Another book to suggest, "The Comfort Crisis" by Michael
| Easter. In it he does a solid and helpful flyover on how
| humans evolved vs how we actually live now, and how the
| disconnect is impacting (negatively) our physical and mental
| health.
|
| While there are few individual ah-ha moments, seeing
| everything laid out end to end to end aggregates into a
| realization that The First World lifestyle is extremely
| unhealthy and often (premature death) deadly.
|
| Fwiw, in some ways The Comfort Crisis was like physical (and
| mental) health version of The Coddling of the American Mind,
| but without the PC-ish type baggage. Note: this comparison -
| for me - is a compliment as both books look to challenge
| mainstream narratives and normalizations.
| op00to wrote:
| I'd rather die of (first world) diabetes at an old age than
| (third world) malaria as a child.
| chiefalchemist wrote:
| What's your point? Do you have any value to add? Or is
| stating the obvious your superpower?
| mial wrote:
| I'm in the same kind of situation, what functional medicine,
| diet and lifestyle changes did you try? What worked?
| usernew wrote:
| Things that don't kill you make you weaker. The other saying
| only applies to mental hurt, not physical.
|
| From my experience, there's nothing you can really do to fix
| this beyond 'live a normal healthy life, and let it heal
| itself, slowly, and not fully.'
|
| I worked at a hospital (in IT) during covid, had to be onsite
| a couple of days a week. lots of people dying all around, n95
| all day, etc. not a problem. As I settled in, I realized my
| manager, and the director, were absolutely toxic people on a
| powertrip. they didn't care if you said "this is likely to
| bring down random hospital applications, we need to do it
| this other way." 2 stars on glassdoor, cowboy hats all
| around, staff morale not present. they'd come up with
| technical ideas on how to do something, despite being barely
| technical people. telling them how to do, say a data
| migration online, because you're an SME who's been doing it
| for almost 30 years is a personal challenge, and you get
| crapped on, overruled, and put in your place. Lots of
| downtime, lots of patients affected, yet they report literal
| fake status reports up the chain and generalize-away every
| issue to the point that the generic statement hides the
| issue.
|
| I started getting heartburn during the day. Then I started
| getting hearburn in the morning as my alarm rang. Then I
| started waking up 5min before the alarm rang, with heartburn,
| and teenager zits on my face at mid-life. Morning was now a
| cup of baking soda water instead of coffee. ion pump
| blockers. more baking soda.
|
| after 6 months, the manager ordered me to execute a migration
| plan that would shave off 2 days from a year-long plan. I
| made a nice writeup stating we need to monitor sockets on the
| array a few days to make sure people aren't actively using
| the data she want's to trash. Last time she had me do this,
| she asked over email, and it brought down a whole clinic that
| was using a share she thought was unused. This time, I was
| asked not over email, but with a call from her cell phone, to
| my cell phone.
|
| I said no problem, send me an email or type it in chat, and
| I'll do it despite the high risk. I was of course fired 5
| days later, but already had a new fully remote job, which I
| started 5 days earlier (lol).
|
| The point of the story is - the stomach issue didn't go away.
| 3 years later, it's still there. It's much less, but that
| last/final bit, where a couple of times a year I need ion
| blockers for 2 weeks, and maybe one day a week I still need
| to start w/ baking soda water - that's probably there to
| stay. I eat very healty, lots of fiber, I'm fit. That 6
| months of acidic people did damage that a middle-aged body
| can't heal all the way.
|
| There's nothing you can do. This is your new thing now, have
| fun with your new friend. And watch this:
| https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xc3r7
| orzig wrote:
| I am about five years out from a similar situation, so let
| me give you a glimmer of hope: I did get better, very
| slowly. I wish I could say why, I've obviously tried all
| sorts of things and also a lot of life has happened between
| then and now, but _don't give up hope_
|
| And best of luck, I suspect you really helped some patients
| at your former job relative to someone who would have been
| less conscientious. Maybe even me, we'll never know!
| yosito wrote:
| I went off the beaten path of things proven by clinical
| research. So none of this stuff is more than anecdotes, but
| some of the things that helped for me: digestive enzymes,
| oregano oil, gluten-free diet, probiotics (BB536, and kefir),
| mastiha tears, kambo, vitamin B, organ meats. I'm currently
| refining my daily supplement stack.
| candiddevmike wrote:
| Tablespoon of apple cider vinegar during meals (mentioned
| this in the GERD thread, also helps with my gut and brain fog
| issues too).
|
| There are a ton of rabbit holes you can go down for SIBO,
| leaky gut, gastroparesis, MMC, etc. All of them revolve
| around how fast and how well food transits your gut. Longer
| food stays inside you, the more problems you have.
| fodmap wrote:
| One of the resources that has helped me the most to
| understand this issue is https://www.monashfodmap.com/ by
| Monash University.
| Lapsa wrote:
| "what does the process of reversing that inflammation look
| like?" "that can take awhile to undo" think you answered it
| yourself. stress less and wait
| cpncrunch wrote:
| Also, have a healthy and easy to digest diet, and don't try
| to eat too much (don't push too much undigested food through
| your gut, which will cause further issues by feeding the bad
| bacteria). Pre and pro biotic food may also help.
| Lapsa wrote:
| (in the spirit of "eat less, move more" for losing weight)
| skrebbel wrote:
| To pull an HN evergreen and reply to the overly specific
| instead of your main point: My wife developed "histamine
| intolerance" after a time of heavy stress, in a story that's
| scary similar to yours. It took her years to figure it out,
| from chance result on a super broad blood test. To confirm
| this, she changed her diet to be only low-histamine foods and
| it made all the difference. She went from "a single chocolate
| chip cookie makes me sick for 3 days" to "mostly leading a
| normal life, just watch what you eat" in half a year or so.
| Over time it helped her gut recover to the point that she now
| generally does not need to watch out much anymore, except in
| some periods when some old symptoms pop back up and she reverts
| to low-histamine diet for a while.
|
| Statistically speaking this is probably not it and you
| considered/tried it already, but just wanted to bring it up in
| the off chance that you hadn't heard of this before. I mean
| doctors just said "irritable bowel syndrome! theres no cure
| sorry bye". She's been writing a low-histamine foodblog for
| some years, which includes a good starting point for what to
| eat and avoid: https://histaminefriendlykitchen.com/histamine-
| friendly-food...
| loh wrote:
| For years I had the same gut issues described by others here,
| seemingly caused by a combination of factors. I'll share what
| helped me solve the problem.
|
| The most effective thing for me seemed to be hitting the gym
| hard, lifting heavy and sweating a lot.
|
| Alongside that, I went through a lot of trial and error with
| the foods my body would tolerate. I started with a low
| histamine/low FODMAP approach, various fasting methods, bone
| broths (collagen), probiotics (sauerkraut, kefir), etc., and
| slowly introduced various foods on top of that while noting
| what made me feel good or bad and basing my diet around that.
| Everyone is different so what worked for me diet-wise may not
| work for you.
|
| Lastly, for my particular case, I think liver-boosting
| supplements like milk thistle and NAC helped significantly
| (and probably some others for any vitamin/mineral
| deficiencies, especially D3+K2). I suspect the root cause of
| my problems was toxic mold plus stress/trauma.
| thevagrant wrote:
| I went through it for many years. It got to the point where
| certain foods made me feel unwell. I had brain fog. Felt tired,
| exhausted. I changed my diet, cut out a lot of processsed foods
| and got by as best as I could.
|
| In the end I realised stress was a major factor. Diet would
| have an impact but stress was the triggering agent that would
| make certain foods much more inflammatory.
|
| I broadened my diet, ate much healthier. Made more effort to do
| exercise on a regular basis.
|
| Slept regularly, slept earlier. Took time to go hiking or
| running long distances. Stopped thinking about work after
| hours. Made an effort to stop worrying about things outside of
| my control.
|
| It took a few years and I reversed almost all the symptoms.
| browningstreet wrote:
| Meditation, mindfulness, reframing, emotional self-care,
| movement, exercise. The usual things.
|
| Not trying to be smug.
|
| But I noticed on a three week vacation, where I was walking 15K
| steps a day, I lost weight and had zero gut issues while eating
| freely in restaurants for the duration. Got home, day one the
| old issues came back. I definitely had a stressful association
| with my day job and the attendant life. I let a lot of things
| slip because I allowed that my situation required me to reward
| myself with lethargy and vices. When I'm above the baseline on
| self care, I don't turn to the vices as much and my physical
| systems generally work better.
|
| I got back into my "me first" routine and my gut issues
| subsided. For me it was like a switch.
| yosito wrote:
| I'm glad it was so easy for you. For me, I've been living
| like a self-care saint for over a year. Meditation,
| mindfulness, gym three times a week, active recovery,
| sufficient sleep, 15k steps a day, perfect diet, low-stress
| job, fulfilling sex life, morning sunlight, ice baths,
| saunas. I'm not OCD or up tight about it, but I'm very
| consistent. I get constant comments about how I take such
| good care of myself. A lot of people say they have never met
| someone who take such good care of themselves. But recovery
| has only happened very very slowly over the course of many
| many months.
| clieless wrote:
| [flagged]
| codyb wrote:
| Huh? Sex is usually a positive healthwise no? Just being
| around people, and getting human contact in general.
| clieless wrote:
| [flagged]
| jmole wrote:
| It's good to take care of yourself regardless.
|
| But my experience is similar - I quit drinking in
| 2020-2021, eliminated grain from my diet, and eat probably
| 80% of my calories in vegetables now. Overall my body is in
| much better shape than it was then, but something is still
| wrong with my gut-brain axis. I think what the article
| misses is the microbiome factor. Any active microbiome is
| going to produce metabolites, and some of those metabolites
| can be destabilizing and disabling to the enteric nervous
| system, even if they're not producing something as acutely
| toxic as a bacteria like C. Diff.
|
| Of all the things I've tried, I've never felt as stress-
| free or clearheaded as I have near the end of a fast.
| yosito wrote:
| Out of curiousity, have you tried activated charcoal?
| It's not good to take frequently because it blocks
| nutrient absorbtion, but if I'm feeling really awful or
| just need to feel clear for a day so I can focus on
| something important, charcoal seems to mop up some of the
| toxic metabolites and give me a short break.
| browningstreet wrote:
| I understand how frustrating it is.
|
| I had a food intolerance test. I replaced every item in my
| kitchen (new coffee maker [after ditching coffee for a
| while], new pots and pans, new cooking utensils). I did
| multiple elimination diets. I went to doctors (one doctor,
| when I said I had no issues in Europe and lots of issues
| immediately upon returning responded, with no mocking at
| all, I should consider moving to Europe) most of whom
| simply told me to go Whole 30 or Mediterranean diet (been
| there, done that).
|
| I hoped a lot of it would subside when I eliminated the
| relationship in my life, too (alas, maybe.. not sure).
|
| When I did the elimination diet the doctors said it could
| be a combination of things, it could be things that will
| take longer than a cycle of elimination to identify, etc.
|
| They didn't know.
|
| I guess there's always: therapy.
|
| Wish I had a better answer, and not having answers is
| stressful enough. I did a lot of "letting go" and "eating
| freely" hoping a more carefree attitude would help. It
| always seemed like something else though.
|
| My doctor _friend_ says if he simply instructed all his
| patients to eliminate gluten from their diets he would
| still succeed with 80%+ of his patients having problems...
|
| I'm quite a bit better, but given that my parents are
| European immigrants, I do think.. ultimately.. I'm better
| off back there in their food system.
| cjdell wrote:
| I recommend an Organic Acid Test (OAT). I've been struggling
| with gut problems similar to yours for years but then it got so
| much worse during the lockdowns. At the time I survived it by
| embracing fasting and keto diets but that wasn't much fun.
|
| More recently my OAT discovered fungal activity and an enormous
| vitamin C deficit. Potentially this has been going on for more
| a decade and it would explain why I'm so tired all the time.
| Treatment through supplementation is in the early stages but
| I'm already feeling noticeably better.
| enkid wrote:
| Inflammation is an immunological reaction. It can be triggered
| a few different ways. Chronic inflammation is either because of
| a chronic infection or some sort of immune disorder. Chronic
| immune disorders don't just stop. They have a trigger and then
| keep going for the rest of the suffers life at some level. They
| can be controlled, but they can't be cured. This is because of
| the way the adaptive immune system works, which produces
| antibodies. Antibodies do a lot of different things, but one of
| the things they do is trigger inflammation in the presence of a
| specific protein. Your body has the capability of producing
| antibodies for basically any conceivable protein. Once an
| antibody is triggered, by having cell damage while the antibody
| is "activated." Your body replicates the B-cell that makes that
| specific antibody and the antibodies stick around in your blood
| stream. This is why you become "immune" after getting a
| vaccine, your body is able to "remember" the antibodies it
| needs to use in case you catch the real disease. When there is
| cell damage and the presence of another protein, your body
| could "remember" the wrong antibody. If it's environmental,
| this is an allergy. If it's from your own body, making the
| antibody attack some component of its own body, it's an
| autoimmune disorder. Once triggered, there's no known way to
| reverse that negative association. Immune disorders are also
| incredibly difficult to diagnose.
| clieless wrote:
| [flagged]
| yosito wrote:
| > When there is cell damage and the presence of another
| protein, your body could "remember" the wrong antibody.
|
| I'm skeptical of this part. Aren't there always a huge number
| of proteins present in the body when cell damage occurs? For
| example, if I get a cold, and I eat chicken soup to prevent
| it, according to your explanation, I could develop antibodies
| for chicken soup. This doesn't seem to happen significantly
| often.
| johnnymorgan wrote:
| Stress is a catch all medicine uses when they have no idea.
|
| Did anyone check your gut flora and provide an analysis, did
| anyone every take a sample before to compare to?
|
| Diet changes is probably heavy protein, some greens, no carbs
| type style?
|
| I'd recommend diving into probiotics, you'll get very little
| help from most doctors as they don't know shit about it (pun
| intended!)
|
| Years and years of IBS like symptoms, like 20+ years of it.
| Probiotics, fermented foods, protein and greens...I shit like a
| god now.
|
| Stress affects stuff, that's normal but it's never a single
| source issue when it comes to overall health.
|
| If you ain't pooping right, solve that first.
| bujak300 wrote:
| Like sibling posts say, inflamed gut leaks histamine, inflames
| it more and leaks more. Try low histamine and in general low
| processed and spicy food diet for a while to reset this
| feedback cycle. Good start:
| https://www.mastzellaktivierung.info/downloads/foodlist/21_F...
| yosito wrote:
| I tried a low histamine diet for a few months. Including DAO
| enzymes and histamine lowering probiotics. Didn't seem to
| make a difference for me. Eventually I found out that spicy
| food actually helps me a lot: it's anti-inflammatory and
| prokinetic.
| corywright wrote:
| After 6 months of testing different diets to try to solve
| my migraines, I eventually discovered an ultra-low
| histamine diet resulted in a ~90% decrease in my headaches.
| Then I began trying different DAO products before eating
| foods with histamine, but the headaches returned. I
| eventually discovered NaturDAO (available via Amazon) and
| its much higher 1,000,000 HDU per pill. Taking two of these
| before any meal or coffee finally worked to stop the food-
| induced migraines for me. Hope this helps.
| biomcgary wrote:
| I've been in biotech long enough to see that the beaten path
| (traditional drugs) does not have robust answers due to
| patentability.
|
| Post-stress inflammation can persist due to latent infections
| of various kinds. To accelerated recovery, I would recommend a
| course of plant-based anti-pathogen treatments. (Not going to
| shill a specific one.)
|
| My non-verbal son has autism and gastrointestinal issues.
| Unfortunately, all the pediatricians would test for is C-diff.
| After years of problems expressed in the most challenging
| behavioral ways(!), we finally had an MD (trained as a
| naturopath) prescribe a battery of pathogen tests
| (https://www.gdx.net/gut-health) that identified an obscure
| protozoa. Nearly, overnight difference upon treatment (a drug).
| The remaining GI issues were addressed with plant-based
| treatment. I've also suffered from GI issues that improved
| substantially with anti-fungal focused supplements (e.g.,
| French Tarragon leaf).
|
| I would recommend eating a diverse range of fermented food too
| (yogurt, real sauerkraut, etc), since they compete with
| pathogens for resources.
| pizza wrote:
| Hope it's really that simple.
| senectus1 wrote:
| ha!
|
| and how in todays world do you feel we can avoid stress?
| throwaway4220 wrote:
| Actually my gi physician has ibd pts see a therapist on every
| yearly visit
| w10-1 wrote:
| We have decades of partial answers as to how the brain affects
| the gut, but none are anywhere near complete.
|
| This finding, that some gluco-corticoid derivatives inhibit cell
| maturation, is new in its specifics but there was plenty of
| evidence to suggest the hypothesis. But it's a tiny part of an
| entire ecosystem. People are already told to avoid NSAID's, so it
| will have little clinical impact.
|
| Saying "autoimmune disease" is as precise as saying you have a
| performance problem in the cloud. Worse, people mistakenly use
| that term for any chronic immune-system-mediated syndrome.
|
| Even worse, saying that "People are sick because society is
| stressed, so we should reduce stress in society" completely
| misdirects useful resources. People who want to do good need to
| dig in and do the work, not hand-wave.
|
| Chronic immune-mediated diseases fall in the crack between
| primary care and GI specialists. The specialists only have time
| for surgery or drugs, and primary care doesn't have the expertise
| for the patient months-long self-experiments required to isolate
| relevant factors (among diet, stress, infectious disease,
| microbiome, genetics).
|
| This is a structural health-care opportunity for anyone able to
| take it. Private equity could fund practice groups with a few
| doctors and 6:1 advanced-practice providers, partnered with
| diagnostics and EHR peers, carefully working through and evolving
| GI algorithms and diagnostics. The alternatives (surgery and
| drugs) are expensive and ineffective and the incidence is high,
| so the market is definitely worth pursuing. Longer-term, it may
| help with automating the actual practice of medicine, where each
| patient is an experiment with a series of knowns, some negotiated
| interventions, and a track record of results: all invaluable data
| for this case and those like it, and a methodology applicable to
| other chronic immune diseases. Automating the accumulation of
| expertise scientifically in a practice system is really the
| future of computers in medicine. It will never happen via
| diagnostics (Quest, LabCorps) or EHR (Cerner/Epic) because their
| virtues are contra-indicated in the continuous experiment of
| treating chronic disease.
| AndrewKemendo wrote:
| If we look at this research and also look at the recent analysis
| that 1/10 people have some kind of autoimmune disease like
| Crohn's then it seems safe to conclude that stress is literally
| slowly killing us.
|
| Seems like the root issue might just be society wide stress and
| anxiety at levels and at a scale never seen before. We can jaw
| all day about how GDP has never been higher and how much TV there
| is to watch now, but we've never been chronically sicker and
| we're trending the wrong direction.
| uLogMicheal wrote:
| I had a GI tell me every time I visited him that stress has
| zero connection to the manifestation of my Crohn's symptoms.
| Yet here I am; years later, I'm off all the meds they
| prescribed and 95% of my days are symptom free through keto
| dieting and yoga to manage the stress. The stress of the
| corporate world was literally killing me, I do much better
| working on startups - a different kind of stress.
| joker_minmax wrote:
| Agree. A lot of people talking about cures here (and a lot of
| pseudoscience), but not a lot of people exploring the societal
| psychological aspect. I've noticed a lot of people, especially
| younger people in America, creating their identity entirely
| around consuming things that are short-lived trends. It really
| leaves people empty once the tide goes the other way. It's like
| systemic insecurity. I'm wondering how fostering more
| concreteness in our culture (as well as workplace structure
| changes) could help with this, but I have no idea how to
| approach it from the ground up.
| meliorika wrote:
| Evolutionary, stress helps an animal to survive an imminent
| danger. Stress (glucocordicoids) divert your energy to either
| flee or fight. Digestion? It's not important if survival is at
| stake. You can survive with a bloated stomach but not a missing
| stomach.
|
| If stress is chronic then you get the bad stuff all the time.
| Wonnk13 wrote:
| It's nothing more than an anecdote, but I can't help but
| correlate the fact that I was diagnosed with colon cancer in late
| 2016. I joined as one of the first 12 employees of a startup a
| few years earlier and I can absolutely say with respect to stress
| and nutrition it was one of the roughest periods of my life.
| venk12 wrote:
| Whoa. I have been struggling with this issue for a long time. My
| gut has turned very sensitive and bloated. I could have a hard
| day even if I have strong coffee. Let alone skip a meal. My
| medical diagnosis doesn't show any problem with my stomach or
| gut. I used to smoke and there used to be times when it was
| stressful at work and I believed it was natural for anyone these
| days. After 2 years of stoppinh smoking + taking care of my diet
| + medicines it is still not gone completely. It's uncomfortable
| to live with this.
| andy_ppp wrote:
| So did IBS go away when they gave people relaxation courses and
| stopped them watching YouTube videos about nuclear annihilation?
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| Not sure mice are worried about human annihilation ...
| manmal wrote:
| I know your comment is tongue-in-cheek, but in my experience
| chronic stress is more caused by financial hardship, bad
| relationships, overwork and other daily life stuff.
|
| (I wrote my comment before you massively edited yours)
| scruple wrote:
| > chronic stress is ... caused by financial hardship, bad
| relationships, overwork and other daily life stuff.
|
| Or living in / growing up in an environment where these are
| the major concerns. Cycles, etc.
| ajuc wrote:
| I first got IBD when I was 18 and preparing for the final high
| school exams that decided which university I can get to. Then I
| got it under control, but it returned several times, always when
| I was under a lot of stress.
|
| BTW asthma also gets much worse with stress
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