[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Has anyone switched from a professional job ...
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Ask HN: Has anyone switched from a professional job to a more
manual one?
I'm considering a big career change. Early 30s, male, Physics
degree and I have a good job in sales in finance in the UK. Earn
100k GBP in a good year and I had a startup before were a more a
good cash lump sum. I think like many people I find more work
uninspiring, pointless and eroding. However, it's well paid, high
status and hard to break into. I have an interview next week for a
coffee engineer role which pays around a third of what I currently
earn and would involve being on the road four out of five days.
Has anyone else made a change like this? How did you find it? Did
you miss the money and status? I know that office work is
desirable for a reason (people like to sit down!!) but I think
there might be something inspiring and rewarding about working with
me hands. Am I being naive because I've never really had to work
with my hand? Thanks for your help and honest feedback. W
Author : flave
Score : 153 points
Date : 2023-05-24 13:23 UTC (9 hours ago)
| pubkeypvtkey wrote:
| [dead]
| jacknews wrote:
| Just think of the kind of boss, and your relationship to them,
| you might have in that new role, and also the colleagues and
| customers.
|
| Of course some of that depends on the actual company, even
| branch, but a surprising amount is endemic, uh, inherent to
| particular industries.
|
| In my experience a large part of the job experience is 'other
| people'. The most fulfilling work can be made a hell by a bad
| boss, and the most mundane tasks elevated by interesting
| colleagues, etc.
|
| And also, about people you work with; you will become them, in
| some small (or large) way.
| dingosity wrote:
| A long time ago I was a software engineer. And I am now again a
| software person.
|
| In 1990, after the murder of a close friend, participating in the
| invasion of a small Latin American country and contracting for a
| national government on the edge of a war zone, I looked forward
| to a stable job as a software engineer. No one would shoot at me,
| I figured, so it must be a better gig.
|
| It was, however, quite boring. I don't think I had real PTSD, but
| after a while in the sterile cube farm, I started imagining what
| I would do if opposing forces broke down our front door and
| attempted to claim our office park for the glory of Upper
| Kraznovistan. Apparently there are things worse than being in
| battle: the mindless drudgery and impossibly poor management of a
| telephony equipment manufacturer in the early 90s.
|
| So I dropped my last dose of purple microdot and drove to NYC
| where I hung out with some old friends. I wasn't really paying
| attention and wound up with a part time job delivering scenic
| backdrops to Broadway. This was back when Times Square was
| somewhat crime-ridden (not peak crime, but still a lot rougher
| than it is today.) No one shot at me while driving my delivery
| van, but I did get guns pointed at me from time to time. And then
| the Teamsters would try to punch me for unloading the van. Turns
| out all the Teamsters didn't get the memo that we were supposed
| to unload items in the van, staging them in a designated area.
| Then the Teamsters pick them up and move them. I have no beef w/
| Teamsters and get it they thought they were protecting their jobs
| against management scabs.
|
| Was getting guns pointed at me and almost punched by Teamsters
| enough for me to return to the loving embrace of software? No.
| But I wasn't making nearly enough money to live in NYC or the
| surrounding areas, so I wound up as the VP of A&R for a small
| record label in Dallas while living in an artists' commune in
| what we might call "Midtown" today.
|
| I eventually saw a print job ad in the Dallas Morning News with
| several lines of 8086 assembly with the comment "if you know what
| this does, give us a call." The siren call of working with crazy
| people trying to make a dent in the universe was hard to ignore
| and I once again returned to a career in the ontological arts and
| crafts.
|
| I am now a nameless drone in sector 47 of the underground
| software mines. But it's totally fine, I have long since made
| peace with the fact I'll never put a dent in the universe. Or
| rather... that I had for a long time been building software with
| the idea that it would dent the universe. My outlook now is to
| focus on the software, let the universe dent itself.
|
| This is a long way around of saying... Yes, software is largely
| soul eroding. The music business, which it has been observed by
| my betters as a cruel and shallow money trench in which pimps and
| thieves are rewarded is still less corrosive than software.
|
| If you got into software just for the money, then I would say
| "yes, fly! be free!" But if you do personal projects on the
| weekend just 'cause you like it, then maybe not. Maybe just find
| a better environment to express your design pattern addiction.
|
| You're always going to have to work with idiots. (Often you find
| that they're only really mildly less informed than you are and
| not real idiots.) There are always going to be people who will
| rejoice in thwarting your best laid plans. If the reason you
| don't like software is you've always worked with idiots or people
| who wouldn't know an agile process if it turned into a snake and
| bit them on the ass, even though agile processes seem to
| repeatedly turn into metaphorical ass-biting reptiles. If you
| work with people who are irritating, maybe first try to find a
| less-well-paying job in software first? It'll probably still pay
| better than a coffee industry lackey.
|
| But you mention working with your hands so maybe it's the
| abstract nature of work you've had 'til now? Maybe try working on
| an IIoT or robotics project?
|
| I think my advice is to consider other types of jobs with other
| types of teams/people, probably at smaller organizations before
| prostrating yourself to big coffee. Or not. I kept coming back to
| software, maybe you'll be happy to keep it far behind.
| dangwhy wrote:
| Peter in officespace did.
| brianwawok wrote:
| Have you seen the ending to the movie office space? If not - I
| highly suggest watching this lovely movie before making this
| move.
|
| But yes, your future job could give you a more happy life
| balance. Or it could be worse. Or the same.
| somedude895 wrote:
| > I highly suggest watching this lovely movie before making
| this move.
|
| I love Office Space to death, but that ending paints a very
| rosy picture. How Peter might feel about his choice two years
| down the line is a different story.
| claytongulick wrote:
| Is someone having a case of the Mondays?
| PM_me_your_math wrote:
| Especially after Peter experiences trench foot and back
| problems. Funny enough you can still get back problems from
| sitting on your posterior all day.
| kovacs wrote:
| Uh yeah, Peter, I'm gonna need you to stop commenting on Hacker
| News and get back to work... mmmkay?
| ryandrake wrote:
| For me, a career change seems drastic and unnecessary. If you
| want to do work with your hands, pick up a hobby that lets you do
| that, and use your finance salary to fund it. If you want to be
| traveling all the time, find a high-paying sales job that lets
| you work from the road to financially support all that travel. If
| you want to do good for the world, volunteer--but keep doing the
| uninspiring pointless work to support yourself. You're probably
| going to see a lot of survivor bias in the replies here--nobody
| ever wants to talk about how they burned out, tried becoming a
| janitor or whatever and failed and went broke.
| Grustaf wrote:
| That's my dream, to take a normal job. I hope to one day be able
| to afford working on construction sites, laying railroad or
| something meaningful. Or even going back to washing dishes in a
| crazy Tokyo restaurant.
|
| Status wise, I'm not sure there's much difference, being a
| software engineer is not something I'm proud of. When you talk to
| people, they can immediately tell if you're intellectual anyway.
|
| If a highly educated person works with something manual, I think
| most people will assume that they do that because they like it,
| and not look down on them. But then I do live in Scandinavia
| where people are far less obsessed with financial status. I think
| most people here are more impressed if someone is a struggling
| actor or professional juggler, than if they're a management
| consultant making 10 times more.
| returningfory2 wrote:
| > Status wise, I'm not sure there's much difference
|
| OP is from the UK where status is...complicated. Having a
| physics PhD from Harvard is potentially lower status than
| having gone to the right British high school and then done PPE
| at Oxford...
| flave wrote:
| 'Status' is jokes here but yeah I certainly have been getting
| a lot of my identity from having money and earning good
| money. Not something I'm proud of.
| Grustaf wrote:
| Sure, obviously PPE is the gold standard. But we're not
| talking about education here, but occupation.
| returningfory2 wrote:
| My point was that, looking from the outside in, it can be
| hard to guess what leads to status in the UK. Your comment
| in a sense reinforces that: to an outsider, why would one
| specific humanities undergraduate in one specific
| university be the "gold standard" of status? It doesn't
| make sense unless you know about status in the UK, IMO.
|
| As opposed to the US where status is simpler IMO and more
| strongly correlated with money.
| Grustaf wrote:
| Of course it makes sense, if you know anything about that
| program, or society. If you don't, well then it doesn't,
| hut that seems pretty obvious.
| Delphiza wrote:
| First understand what you find about your work that is
| "uninspiring, pointless, and eroding". The answer may lie in the
| markets that you work in rather than doing something with your
| hands. (City-based (finance) products can seem pointless once you
| realise how and why it all works). You can do sales in an
| industry that is meaningful to you - like coffee machines.
|
| I work in tech and am currently trying to build stuff that
| addresses energy efficiency in manufacturing (my small bit to
| help climate change). I have to go on site in safety boots and a
| hard hat - looking up at a massive plant that burns dead
| dinosaurs. It is not pointless, but it is frikkin' hard. It is
| also a much better use of my abilities and experience in tech to
| try and optimise their plant with data than dig a ditch or man
| the food truck outside the factory gates. No offense to those
| useful skills, but mine are better applied (and more valuable)
| elsewhere.
| samrocksc wrote:
| :/ i think the first step is disregarding the thought process
| that a "Professional job" is not a manual job....that's kind of
| an insulting thing to say.
|
| Army, Marine Corps, Wildland Firefighting, Owning 3x Coffee
| Shops, and now Software Dev for 10 years.....
|
| just saying.
| flave wrote:
| You're the second person to pick up on this. I don't really
| even understand what you're saying.
|
| In the UK (and British English) there are professions. Those
| professions are things like Doctor, Banker, Salesperson,
| Teacher etc. I didn't write the rules of how British English
| works.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| If you actually mean manual labor then make sure to think through
| how you'll save and plan for retirement. My cousin did
| construction most of his adult life and realized in his 40s that
| there was no way he could keep it up into his 60s and beyond--the
| toll on your body is high and everyone else in the field is
| younger and more able-bodied. He realized plumbing (at least for
| residential homes) was something that didn't require as much hard
| labor and he saw older guys doing it all the time. So he started
| apprenticing and made the switch to plumbing late in his career.
|
| Not sure what coffee engineer is exactly but the same basic idea
| applies. If you're doing manual labor make sure it's something
| you can do into your sixties. If not, look for some
| specialization or related field you can move into--be sure you
| see older people actually working those jobs to know it's
| realistic or even apprentice with them.
| hacoo wrote:
| This is very true. Having worked in trades, nearly everyone
| develops back or other physical problems.
| [deleted]
| bradfa wrote:
| For doing manual labor like construction, look into joining a
| union. The better unions provide a LOT of services and benefits
| for laborers. A friend works for a local union's benefits
| group, they have very good health insurance, unemployment add-
| ons (construction is very seasonal here), and a pension plan.
| From what I understand they try very hard to take care of their
| union members. My understanding is that this union's dues are
| extremely reasonable given the benefits offered.
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| I took a few gigs with a roommate who is a gastro chef doing
| catering a few years ago for the hell of it. Was really quite the
| experience. I love to cook but never had done it for like 80+
| people on a level of expectation of a certain high quality before
| then. Made Spanish Paella for one event, Brazilian steak at
| another... Everyone thought I was some special professional
| foreign chef flown in from Canada which is the funniest part. We
| just rolled with it because while we didn't even intend for
| anyone to think that, they just loved it. They even invited me
| for doing their Christmas dinner but I figured working over those
| days was a bit much and politely declined.
|
| One of the things it helped me realize is that I need to be in
| better shape. Felt like I got in a fight or something after each
| gig, spending all day and night preparing a ton of food is NOT
| easy, it is extremely demanding and you need to make sure of a
| bunch of stuff that matters less if you're just a programmer like
| kitchen hygiene.
| peteradio wrote:
| Did it pay well?
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| Not as much as I make doing software engineering for sure,
| but the money was really good relatively speaking especially
| considering this wasn't in some typical Anglosphere country.
| It was otherwise super rewarding though. Made for some cool
| videos to share on Instagram
| krageon wrote:
| > I need to be in better shape
|
| When I still worked in kitchens I used to cycle long distances
| (40+ km) in relatively short average times (approximately one
| hour) almost every day, and a busy shift in the kitchen still
| wiped me out. Sometimes I was even sore the next day (it
| depends on what needed to be done). I guess I'm trying to say
| I'm wondering what sort of herculean fitness would not have
| difficulty with the work.
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| You don't really get a chance to sit down. A lot of it is
| kinda leaning into or towards whatever you're doing which is
| a laborious posture to hold.
| TrueGeek wrote:
| A friend of mine switched from IT work (roll outs of retail
| systems) to driving a fork lift. He was able to stay with the
| same company and kept his seniority and vacation time (they give
| an extra week per 5 years so he's up to 6 weeks PTO). He's making
| less money of course, but he's far happier. No more time on the
| road and he says he loves that when his shift ends, it ends.
|
| One downside for me is we have to plan further ahead to hang out
| since he is almost always scheduled to work weekends. But between
| us we've got plenty of PTO to make it work. We're doing a full
| week of bikepacking in July!
| Neil44 wrote:
| I would say yes you're being a little naive. You'll be sitting in
| traffic, setting out early and getting back late, dealing with
| parking tickets and difficult end users. You will ache from
| driving and working in strange positions. It will get old
| quickly.
| zopper wrote:
| My cousin worked in finance but then due to a health issues he
| was not able to look at screens (or artificial light in general)
| for extended periods of time.
|
| He was forced to switch to another profession which had to be
| outdoor based to avoid artificial light and doesn't use any
| screens.
|
| He decided to train dogs. Initially it was a bit rough (working
| long hours a day Monday to Saturday) but fast forward 2 years
| later he is now considered to be one of the best dog trainers in
| his area. This allowed him to triple his prices and reduce his
| working hours. He now earns more than he did in his finance job
| working shorter hours.
|
| If you find your niche and become an expert in that area, I think
| you can earn a good living no matter what that niche is. But some
| niches make it easier than others as the base earnings are
| higher.
| canadapups wrote:
| My wife has a masters degree in marketing. She ditched the desk
| job to become a dog breeder. She's never going to have desk job
| ever again. After a few years she asked me to build online
| business related to it (https://www.canadapups.com). I think
| the key is to mix expertise. Marketing + dogs, technology +
| dogs, technology + coffee. If someone feels like they need to
| switch careers, it's probably a great idea - good chance of
| success in the next career due to bringing the previous careers
| skills to the new one.
| ericmcer wrote:
| Same thing, my friends fiance somehow became known as a very
| good and reliable dog walker. He would walk dogs around some
| very expensive parts of SF. Was making close to 200k and
| looking at homes last I heard.
|
| I feel like this must have a huge luck component, he must have
| just gotten in with one person in this community and then met
| clients by referral until he took over that area.
| gentleman11 wrote:
| How much does a client pay for dog walking per day?
| codethief wrote:
| > he was not able to look at screens (or artificial light in
| general) for extended periods of time.
|
| That sounds scary! What exactly was the issue?
| dangwhy wrote:
| i had cervical disk hernia them prevented me from looking at
| sceens for over a year.
| notdang wrote:
| not the op, but one I know of is epilepsy, screens can
| trigger seizures in some people.
| NickM wrote:
| Sounds like everything ended up great for your cousin, but in
| case he'd still like to be able to use a screen occasionally, I
| wonder if something like this might help:
| https://www.sunvisiondisplay.com/reflective-lcd-monitor
|
| I have no personal experience or affiliation with that company,
| but I read about them the other day and it seems like a cool
| concept that could help a lot of people that have issues with
| normal LCD screens.
| VoodooJuJu wrote:
| Earning more as a dog trainer of two years than he did in
| finance?
|
| I'm skeptical.
|
| Can you expand? Was it finance or "finance"? Was it a low-end
| finance position? Did he already have prior experience training
| dogs? Something's fishy here.
| elliotpo wrote:
| I had generous doctoral funding in the humanities with a very
| light teaching load and left to be a stable-hand, mucking stalls
| and throwing breakfast and lunchbhay to the horses. (So this
| kinda sorta counts, since I was still in school, and the labor
| job was always going to be temporary. Having said that I loved it
| and still miss it). In the end I worked at the stable for about a
| year.
|
| It paid almost nothing. I rented a room and was broke. But the
| work was cathartic and interesting and completely altered my
| world-- or dropped the world I'd known away, leaving this really
| interesting (again temporary) moment of peace in its place.
| Status wise, when you do something like that, you meet new
| people. There are different ways of comparing status-- and of not
| even caring at all about it.
|
| It took me a while to adjust away from academic thinking, which
| manifested largely as an extreme lack of confidence if I wasn't
| quoting someone else's argument or surrounded by piles of books.
| The stable was a great place to sort some of that and to like
| regain a sense of self (and people in the world, more broadly
| than in the university) in a really tangible way.
|
| I wound up doing a bunch of different work over time. A mix seems
| to me ideal at this point. Ha still trying to figure it out.
| CrispyKerosene wrote:
| I spent a decade or so in geospatial, moved country and struggled
| to find work (moved just as covid hit).
|
| I picked up a job doing construction, specifically windows and
| doors. I've always been pretty handy and know my way around the
| tools, but had never worked this kind of job.
|
| Its satisfying work no doubt. I lost a ton of weight and was in
| the best shape i had been in years with no effort outside of
| work. I learned a bunch of new skills and my confidence to
| complete most home repairs has increased exponentially.
|
| Downsides are the wear and tear it puts on your body. After 12
| months i had more small scars than i could count, i broke my foot
| on my last day there. You come home filthy everyday.
|
| For the first few weeks i was wrecked after everyday, got home
| and basically passed out on the lounge.
|
| My biggest pet peeve was probably a factor of the specific
| company i worked at, but i found the lack of basic organization
| and communication infuriating. Suggestions to implement simple
| procedures that would reduce the number of misquotes, scheduling
| and general chaos are ignored because it would require change.
|
| I'd do it again, but for a more organized and professional
| company.
| chasd00 wrote:
| "Pays a third and on the road 4 out of 5 days"
|
| That doesn't sound very nice to me. If working with your hands
| seems rewarding then maybe find a hobby or something to get that
| reward without putting your livelihood at risk.
| DANmode wrote:
| Anyone _trying_ to make this change now?
|
| I came across a great, well-paced, well-paid1 outdoor role that
| still involves a small amount of tech.
|
| 1Better paid than a lot of tech roles, actually.
|
| I would need a teammate to break in. Get in touch!
| keiferski wrote:
| I am in the middle of reading William Gibson's _Virtual Light_
| and seriously considering a career change to bike messenger.
| Unfortunately it doesn't pay much more than minimum wage.
|
| More seriously, though, I have had similar feelings many times.
| However, I spent a decade from high school through post-college
| working manual and food service jobs, so I have no illusions that
| they provide some kind of fulfillment not found in computer jobs.
|
| My solution was to spend as much non-work time as possible doing
| outdoors/manual things. And if there's something related to your
| job which can be done while riding a bike, or walking, or
| repairing a motorcycle, or whatever your preferred physical
| activity, rather than sitting at a desk, then do it that way.
| Listen to an audio version of a report instead of reading it, do
| meetings while walking, etc.
|
| Finally I'd also recommend a book related to this topic: _Shop
| Class as Soulcraft,_ which is about a philosopher that became a
| motorcycle mechanic, and I believe later became a philosopher
| again.
| jiscariot wrote:
| I know a lot of people like Shop Class as Soulcraft, but I
| found the author's rosy glasses and philosophy about the
| "dignity" in manual labor to be extremely tiresome. There is an
| irony that really didn't transition to crappy m/c mechanic like
| the book would have you believe, but rather to an author with a
| best selling book. Granted I also think Zen and the Art of
| Motorcycle Maintenance is one of the most overrated books ever,
| so take what I say with a grain of salt.
| keiferski wrote:
| Sure, it is a little overblown, but I think for the intended
| white-collar audience, somewhat necessary. The typical reader
| of his book has probably always considered manual labor to be
| something "other people" do.
| Omroth wrote:
| If you haven't already, I would consider some less committal
| steps to find out more about the problem you're experiencing.
|
| 1. Take an unusually long time off - double whatever the most is
| you've taken in recent years. If you don't have the leave, call
| off sick. Keep a note of how you feel about work each day when
| you get up and when you go to bed.
|
| 2. Try to list what makes an unusually good day at work. Even in
| a very samey job there are days you travel; days you have
| meetings with specific kinds of people; days you work on
| something a bit unusual.
|
| 3. Consider finding a good (not always easy, but if you can
| afford it you'll have a much better hit rate if you go for min.
| PS75 an hour) psycho-dynamics therapist. When "interviewing"
| them, say that your initial goal is to find out if moving jobs
| will make you happy.
|
| What you do in your early thirties when you have the freedom and
| desire to instigate a big change could be very important, and
| it's worth finding out more about yourself to help make the right
| choice.
| leesec wrote:
| I went the other way, from a manual laborer ("able seaman") on a
| cement tugboat to an engineer. I would never go back for any
| reason. Parts of working with your hands or working outdoors can
| be rewarding, but it was extremely brutal and backbreaking work.
| Aside from the physical demands it was also very unhealthy
| breathing in powdered cement all the time. IMO if you want to use
| your hands more start a garden, fix up a house or a car, or get
| some productive physical hobby. Don't quit your day job until
| you're very sure you want to do the thing day in day out for a
| living. Just my two cents.
| fallingfrog wrote:
| I wish I could be a musician. I have the necessary talent but
| haven't put in the work. To be honest, I'd rather be a musician
| and eat Ramen noodles than keep writing accounting software and
| live in a mansion. Hell, even if it meant being alone forever and
| being poor as dirt vs having a relationship and living in luxury,
| I'd still take rather be a musician in a heartbeat. Every time I
| do a job interview it gets harder to smile and say this is my
| dream job when I know I will spend every moment in misery feeling
| like I was wasting my life. I got into programming as a creative
| outlet, and now I'm competent at it, and I have to survive. I bet
| a lot of other people are in a similar boat.
| rodolphoarruda wrote:
| After 16 years implementing business applications I switched to
| managing family business, including a wedding dress shop. That
| gave me a steady level of income that allowed me to bootstrap a
| handful of SaaS products since 2018 (and still have time for the
| kids while they are young and see me as relevant to them).
| douglaswlance wrote:
| Just go work a day in manual labor. You don't need to take a big
| risk to try it out.
| the_only_law wrote:
| Which jobs are hiring day-long tourists?
| swader999 wrote:
| Volunteer ones, sometimes cities have a work corner where
| people go to hire people for a day of random physical work.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Eh there's plenty of work that needs to be done no one is
| going to give you shit for doing. Buy a shovel & hi-vis vest
| and dredge a neglected ditch or something. Getting paid the
| $110 isn't the important part of this exercise.
| cfn wrote:
| In the UK, picking fruit might be an option.
| smarri wrote:
| I continue in my office job, but get my fix of physical-type work
| through gardening, cooking, golf, and driving.
| kemiller2002 wrote:
| If you want my honest feedback don't do it. It depends on what
| you want to do exactly, but most of the outcomes of manual labor
| is the same. I'm in my mid 40's and my girlfriend is in her early
| 50's. I worked with chocolate and ran the family candy store when
| my dad couldn't. She's been a chef for 20+ years. The thing no
| one tells you is that it's brutal on your body. It'll break down
| after a time. The pay is bad, and it won't cover the cost of what
| you're doing to yourself in the long term.
|
| You also have to be prepared for a major culture shift from what
| you're used to. The food industry at least is different than what
| you're probably used to. It's rough. You have to be comfortable
| with things not being above board, heavy drug use and heavy
| alcohol.
|
| Our jobs in tech are so easy compared to what other people go
| through. The pay is good, and the freedom is amazing.
| Unfulfilling is really a complaint well off people get to talk
| about that aren't struggling to survive.
| bityard wrote:
| > The thing no one tells you is that it's brutal on your body.
| It'll break down after a time.
|
| I hear surprisingly often here on HN that manual labor and
| working in the trades ruins your body over decades due to over-
| exertion. But I also read that sitting in a chair staring at a
| screen for 8-10 hours a day ruins your body over decades due to
| under-exertion.
|
| So I am left wondering who is right.
| navbaker wrote:
| The difference is that there are small things and changes in
| your routine you can do to counteract those negative effects
| of sitting at a desk. You can't do the same with a manual
| labor job.
| michaelt wrote:
| A programmer who wants more physical exertion can drop by the
| gym or go for a run a few times a week, to keep healthy.
|
| A bathroom fitter who wants less physical exertion, though?
| Ain't nobody else going to haul that 700 lbs pallet of tiles
| or that awkward ass bathtub up that staircase.
| tomjakubowski wrote:
| the bathroom fitter's problem may be imbalanced exertion,
| emphasizing the same movements over time without
| complementary moves can cause injury as well
| sixstringtheory wrote:
| Probably, but a problem here is that a bathroom fitter
| might not have the time or energy to do that. Especially
| if they're still trying to live a life outside of work
| with family and friends and hobbies. And getting injured
| at the gym doesn't help you get to work the next day.
|
| I worked in kitchens for years and as much as I also
| wanted to hit the gym I didn't have it in me after 12+
| hour shifts. I had several family members in older
| generations who did various types of manual labor and saw
| what it did to their bodies.
|
| As much as I bitch about the state of the software
| industry and some of my coworkers, I know better than to
| throw that baby out with the bathwater. We have it really
| good.
|
| Then again, if someone doesn't have any first hand
| experience with any of this, maybe it would be good to go
| get some perspective.
| c37d8bc wrote:
| The distribution in manual labor includes major catastrophic
| injury. I'm 28, work in landscaping: the second day of this
| season I fell through a metal grate and was lucky to not snap
| my leg. I passed out at work last year due to
| dehydration/exhaustion after nicking my leg with a pair of
| electric hedge trimmers; it could have been much worse.
|
| There's quite a few engineers I know that are fat and
| unshapely, and that likely takes a toll on their health, but
| I doubt any of them encounter daily situations where they're
| at decent chance of being maimed.
| hacoo wrote:
| Both are right, they just mess you up in different ways.
| yourapostasy wrote:
| _> So I am left wondering who is right._
|
| They're both right.
|
| However, "sitting in a chair staring at a screen for 8-10
| hours a day" in this conversation stands in for "classic HN
| programming job". In that context, it still gives you a
| choice to take bodyweight exercise breaks in brief moments
| during the day and over noontime lunch (if you follow
| Huberman Lab's "don't start eating until 2 pm" advice), and
| working out afterwards.
|
| The other part overlooked in this thread about manual labor
| beyond the over-exertion already touched upon is many people
| build overtime into their assumed lifestyle and pay
| expectations. It is part of the culture, and it accelerates
| the wear and tear on bodies. Also perniciously schedule traps
| people into not enough time to work out even assuming they
| had the energy to do so.
|
| Also, in many industries it is still somewhat uncommon to
| find employers _and employees_ who take PPE seriously.
| Welding is notorious for such a culture if you find yourself
| in a shop that specializes in welding (independents get to
| set their own standards, but a distressingly high number of
| them still don 't take it seriously). There is even a
| perverse machismo associated with cavalier PPE attitudes in
| some shops.
|
| You _can_ work manual labor, get paid a lot, and not wreck
| your body. In both cases, you have to be very discerning
| about what to accept is "normal" for your industry and
| yourself, and accordingly set your boundaries.
| digging wrote:
| I worked in food service for ~5 years before getting into tech
| and I think this is valuable advice. I was younger then but I
| still knew I was beating up my body (I did a lot of large
| deliveries, so moving heavy stuff). As much as I miss the
| guaranteed exercise and worry about my knees, I know it'd be
| worse if I was forced to wake up at 4am and do all that shit
| again for 6-9 hours a day.
|
| I also miss the social aspect terribly. I would love to have
| friends around me during the day (although coding would be
| impossible if they were there all the time). But I don't miss
| getting off work and drinking for hours, being too tired to do
| any hobbies. I don't miss watching my friends smoke cigarettes
| for hours until I gave in and bummed one.
|
| And I _definitely_ don 't miss the helplessness and lack of
| respect I felt in those jobs. The most urgent push I had for
| learning to program was that I was just so tied of not being
| able to solve problems, manage my own time, and avoid people
| just being rude as hell.
|
| All that said, my job is unfulfilling. I think that's a valid
| complaint. If I had some of the social and physical aspects, I
| don't know if I'd worry so much about that, but I don't so I
| do.
| philote wrote:
| On the flip side, having a desk job can also ruin your body
| unless you make a good effort to get up and move or exercise
| frequently. For some of us it's easier to get exercise if you
| have to for your job.
| lumb63 wrote:
| I'm a software engineer now. In my past I worked as a landscaper.
| I prefer my current job because of the money, but I found an
| incredible calm in spreading mulch. It was hard work and I'd
| return home exhausted every day, but it was a great experience.
| Hard physical labor shuts off the mind, in my experience, in a
| way that most activities today don't, and that produces a unique
| satisfaction.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Whatever you do, make sure you are on a path where you aren't
| relying on your body working right in your mid-40s to keep a roof
| over your head. People's health varies, but as a rule: 40+ hours
| a week of manual labor feels good in your 20s, okay in your 30s,
| brutal in your 40s and unsustainable in your 50s.
|
| My father-in-law wanted to go into construction, but picked up a
| civil engineering degree upon hearing this advice from a foreman,
| and said it was the best advice he ever got. Plus, working as a
| surveyor meant he wasn't stuck behind "a damn desk" all day.
| MAMAMassakali wrote:
| Start volunteering at a farm on weekends if possible. If you like
| it, get your own land and start a small hobby farm. You can even
| start associated processing business or shop.
| poo-yie wrote:
| This would be me if I could figure out a way to make it happen.
| A good friend of mine has a tiny farm but he is in poor health.
| I go out to his farm fairly often to help him. I absolutely
| love it (being outdoors and the peacefulness).
| kyrofa wrote:
| This ^. I still work in tech, but I have cattle and chickens
| and a tractor and endless outdoor projects now. That plus a
| family puts work solidly in its place: a way to make money so
| that I can do what I enjoy. I do of course enjoy work here and
| there, but I enjoy my life outside of work more. My farm isn't
| a business, so there's no extra pressure there, but it gave me
| a way to dive into permaculture and try to pave a path toward
| self-sufficiency, which has given me and my family a lot of joy
| and stability. And I can do that AND save for retirement thanks
| to the tech job.
| poo-yie wrote:
| Sounds like you're on a great path! Did you buy the land or
| did you already have it?
| kyrofa wrote:
| I bought it right before COVID. Only ten acres, nothing
| crazy. I don't think I could afford it now, so I'm really
| grateful for that timing!
| moltar wrote:
| I knew a guy from rural Canada who'd stop software engineering
| work for the winter and would do snow plowing (contracts, for
| money). Then back to software when the winter was over.
| ibarrajo wrote:
| Coffee engineer? You'll still be working with Java I bet
| bachmeier wrote:
| I moved in the other direction. Helped my father run a business
| that could roughly be classified as "sewer and water
| installation", among other things.
|
| The term "manual" varies a ton. The work I was doing was
| extremely physical, requiring long hours (12 hours on a reduced
| day, six days a week) during the main work season. Friends
| working in a grocery store had very different working conditions
| and pay.
|
| The first thing to keep in mind is that it's hard to do a job
| with a heavy physical component after 50. There's a good chance
| you'll end up managing other workers, and it's not the same as
| managing office workers. And finally, as is the case with many of
| these types of jobs, mine required considerable intellectual
| effort in addition to the physical effort (solving problems,
| dealing with regulations, etc.) and I had to deal with customers
| all the time.
| throwaway1492 wrote:
| I had a similar background. Grew up doing manual labor on a
| family farm, then college then active duty military for several
| years. There's a huge difference between "manual labor indoors
| normal hours" and "manual labor outdoors all hours all
| weather". For the first 15 years of my software career I
| couldn't believe my good fortune; awesome pay, intereting work,
| smart coworkers, dry and warm! Heaven!
|
| Now at 20+ years in software I'm so fried I can barely push a
| key a lot of days. My body is wrecked because I haven't kept
| fitness up. I need to make some changes for sure. Looking at
| possible hardware start up now.
| paulusthe wrote:
| You're being naive. The grass looks greener because you're used
| to your present day existence. If you actually took a 2/3 pay cut
| you'd see just how little money you really have at the end of the
| day.
|
| It's far better to be bored and rich than engaged and poor.
| Especially in a field which has rapid pay increase potential like
| finance.
|
| Stay in your job, save a few million pounds, then play barista
| helloplanets wrote:
| This is patronizing advice imo.
|
| It's possible that the grass just looks greener, or that the OP
| is just burnt out. But it's also true that it can sometimes be
| a good move to change what you're doing, even if your current
| job pays a ton of money. Of course, it'd definitely be
| beneficial to explore which one is the case before committing
| to the change.
| dukeyukey wrote:
| Although it's not hard to find stories of people who worked a
| high-powered professional job, burned out, and now works in
| something much "lower" down and loves it.
|
| Obv doing that would be a mistake for a lot of people for money
| reasons, but still.
| camdenreslink wrote:
| It really depends on your personal circumstances. If you have
| no dependents and live in a medium-low cost of living area then
| you have a lot more freedom.
| rocket_surgeron wrote:
| I was a software engineer for just long enough to realize that it
| was killing my soul and so I scammed my way into being an
| engineer in aerospace.
|
| Protip: if you do some solidworks tutorials on your off-time to
| get some experience with it and have basic electronics knowledge
| from a lifetime of dicking around with amateur radio and
| electronics kits, managers are willing to overlook a LOT.
|
| Before I sat in a nightmarish hellscape of an open office staring
| at IntelliJ all day between Agile cultist gatherings.
|
| Now I have an office and a typical week has me working with
| hardware prototypes, building test apparatus, writing a little
| code but just a little, working with MechEs, developers, EEs, and
| piling schematic printouts up on my desk into precarious stacks
| like I'm a stereotype of a wizard hoarding esoteric knowledge or
| something.
|
| 4-5 times a year I go out to remote test ranges two weeks at a
| time to do a little R&D in the field which involves crawling
| around inside test aircraft to wire up instrumentation and flying
| around in circles for hours on end. For space stuff we have
| launch parties.
|
| Also, my workspace is an office with windows and a door that
| closes and seating and a whiteboard for ad-hoc meetings and I
| have not had to wear my noise-cancelling headphones just to
| remain sane as everyone around me slurps their soup and has
| conversations on the phone in years!
|
| If I had continued on my previous career path, today would see me
| trying to figure out how to get AI to get you to watch an ad
| about dickpills or something so that my employer could stripmine
| your personal data and now I build cool stuff that flies in the
| air and in space.
|
| There are options, though I'm not sure about the UK, for well-
| compensated tech work that isn't just sitting staring at a screen
| for 8 hours a day.
| charlie0 wrote:
| I like to do the oil change on my car, not because I love it, but
| because it's a good reminder to myself what life is like for
| those less fortunate who didn't have the same choice. Not to say
| there aren't any people who don't love that, but physical labor
| is plenty though as well.
| frithsun wrote:
| "every form of refuge has its price"
|
| Every lifestyle has its own pain and perks. Heck, Kato Kaelin
| found out the hard way that even living in a celebrity's pool
| house comes with its risks and problems. A lot of it boils down
| to deciding what kind of suffering you are least uncomfortable
| with.
| nlh wrote:
| _Raises hand_ (...halfway...)
|
| I'd been solidly in tech for the past ~9 years - DevOps software,
| eCommerce company, sales enablement software, etc.
|
| I also re-picked up my hobby/passion of coin & currency
| collecting a few years ago and started buying and selling for
| fun.
|
| The stars aligned in such a way that fairly recently I've been
| able to focus purely on the numismatic world, and I'm now doing
| that full time (and then some).
|
| My life now consists of about 50% time on the road at physical,
| in-person coin & currency shows all over the country. I stand at
| my booth and buy & sell, run around the floor making deals, hunt
| other dealers cases for treasure in plain sight, and all that
| fun. So I wouldn't exactly call this "manual", but show days are
| very much in-person and 12+ hours of being on your feet brain
| fully-engaged.
|
| (I spend the other 50% of my time at home working on the software
| that powers my operation, buying & selling on eBay, going to and
| from the post office, etc.)
|
| But man, this is SO MUCH FUN. I describe my former life as
| "arguing with people on Zoom all day" and my current life as
| absolute heaven indulging in a super fun hobby that actually
| makes money. There's also an incredibly cool social aspect to it
| wherein you kind of see the same dealers at all the big shows, so
| it's a bit of a traveling circus ("see you next week in
| Phoenix?")
| benkoller wrote:
| This sounds like a great story, congrats! Having the
| opportunity to go "all in" on a hobby in this way is enticing
| for sure. Would you mind telling more about how the opportunity
| came up to go full-time? Was it being in the right place at the
| right time, or what type of risk did you step into?
| nlh wrote:
| For sure. A bit of luck in several places: I'd been buying
| and selling casually during my off-hours for the past few
| years, mostly as a way to keep my brain moving in other areas
| (some people watched movies in their free time - I bought and
| sold coins on the internet and went to shows during my
| vacation time). I'd kinda sorta proven to myself that it
| could make money, but wasn't sure how much and if it could
| sustain a full-time income.
|
| Lucky bit #1: My "normal" gig, co-founder at a software
| startup with some great wonderful friends, needed to cut
| costs, so my salary there went to $0 :) More time for coins
| now! (All is very amicable there - they were worried I'd be
| mad. Quite the opposite).
|
| Lucky bit #2: The rare coin market is super hot right now, so
| it's easier than it might otherwise be to turn a profit as a
| relative newbie. That won't last of course, but I'm using
| this as a chance to learn from the guys who have been doing
| this for 30+ years how to succeed in all types of
| environments. It's lucky and I'm grateful that while my
| training wheels are stil on I can actually sustain a full-
| time living.
|
| Onward!
| cloudyporpoise wrote:
| I'm similar to you in that I work in tech and love being outdoors
| and doing physical activities. What I'm realizing though, is my
| biggest chance at "making it big" is by doing the work I'm really
| good at.. which right now is tech work. Personally I have plenty
| of hobbies, but my long-term earning potential at those hobbies
| would be pretty low.
|
| That being said, I also know people that have had tremendous
| success by making a business out of their hobby. Whether it be
| photography, bike repair, mechanic. It's cliche to say but the
| advice I'd give is stick to what you like, or what you're good
| at, or ideally both - and then pursue your hobbies part-time. If
| your full-time workload doesn't allow you to pick something up
| part-time. Find a slower paced environment that'll let you keep a
| salary you're used too, and afford you more time to play around
| with some part-time jobs and see if any of them could become a
| full-time gig for you.
| crashbunny wrote:
| I've had a few career breaks from IT.
|
| One time was a job in the construction industry for 6 months. It
| was the happiest I'd ever been. I went from struggling to get to
| sleep, struggling to wake up before midday in IT, to bouncing out
| of bed at 4am for a 6am start. I could have woken up later but I
| wanted an hour to relax and have a coffee before work.
|
| I was outside all day, saw the sunrise and the sunset, my mood
| was amazing, my feet were sooo sore. I liked the people I was
| working with, about half the foremen were total pricks and I
| enjoyed dealing with them too.
|
| I ended the shift physically worn out and ready to go home. I got
| home around 7pm, put my work clothes in the washing machine, had
| a shower, had dinner, put my clothes in the drier and was in bed
| before 9. I'd try to watch something but I'd fall asleep very
| quickly.
|
| wake up 5 minute before my 4am alarm and hit my head on the
| ceiling bouncing out of bed looking forward to the day.
|
| I did that for 6 months, I was thinking I would start looking for
| another job in IT when I was contacted by someone filling a role
| and got it.
|
| So, I would say if you're serious about leaving, talk to your
| boss and ask for 6 months leave without pay, and go do something
| different. You then have the option of going back. Or, just quit,
| do something else for 6-12 months and if you feel the urge to go
| back to your old field, start applying for roles.
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| > I did that for 6 months, I was thinking I would start looking
| for another job in IT when I was contacted by someone filling a
| role and got it.
|
| Why did you end up going back?
| crashbunny wrote:
| I like IT, but I needed a break from it, I needed to refresh,
| I was always planning on going back.
| charlie0 wrote:
| This. If going back into SWE was easy, I'd take 6 months off
| that, go into construction, get paid to get fit and learn new
| skills, and then come back to SWE. Much better than just going
| to the gym.
| gspencley wrote:
| I've been a software engineer for 25 years. I'm currently at the
| Principal level and I'm thinking about retiring from tech. I'm
| "only" 41.
|
| I'm not sure how valuable my input will be, since I haven't
| actually done it, and what I'm thinking about leaving the tech
| sector for is not exactly "manual labour" even though it is way
| more physical.
|
| My wife and I are semi-professional performing magicians. We've
| been developing our act on and off for the last 7 years or so and
| do weekend gigs. And we're thinking about giving up a cushy >
| 200k / year base salary to become starving artists.
|
| Why? The obvious one is that we're extremely passionate about our
| act and love it.
|
| But I'm also tired of the tech industry. I don't have the
| enthusiasm for technology that I used to. I never jumped on the
| smart phone bandwagon. I'm sick of the direction the industry has
| gone in with cloud and SaaS. I'm a tinkerer, a maker at my core.
| That's not only why I love magic (the prop building, problem
| solving, script writing... producing something that is MINE) but
| it's what got me into technology in the first place: being the
| master of the machine. Building and creating something tangible
| that has a real effect on the user. That factor seems to be
| eroding more and more as specialization takes hold in the
| industry and the machine we're programming is some virtual
| computer in a data centre.
| kiviuq wrote:
| I find the juxtaposition between professional and manual jobs to
| be quite odd ;D
| roland35 wrote:
| What I recommend, and plan on doing unless I just retire early
| outright, is to downshift to a less stressful software job. I've
| worked at quite a few places where I was bored and the pay was
| low. This was a problem early in my career when I was trying to
| advance and earn more for my family+retirement, but sounds pretty
| good now honestly!
|
| I think us software engineers don't realize how good we have it.
| I've worked factory jobs, manual restaurant jobs, and other ad-
| hoc outdoor work for neighbors and family growing up and trust
| me, software engineering is a job most other people dream about
| having. Try to find a job where you can maintain your fitness in
| your own time, downshift to an easier job or just scale back your
| workload at your current company if you're not trying for a
| promotion.
| 71a54xd wrote:
| I've transitioned to consulting - I make more money and have more
| freedom to work out during the day which is great, but I can't
| help but feel I'm well behind my peers and have a stagnating
| career. Since I basically resorted to consulting since the job
| market for engineers is so dire at the moment / maybe my resume
| is just a red flag?
| ilikerashers wrote:
| This is the job path that the market forces people down (in UK
| IT at least).
|
| Bad permanent salaries push people to contracts/consulting.
| That just doesn't go many places.
|
| My version of "manual labour" is thinking about going back into
| the industry with a more output/reward-driven role. IT roles
| feel kinda dead end.
| 71a54xd wrote:
| I feel badly because it seems like I've sort of wasted the
| potential of my education - but I'm only 4 years in so we'll
| see what happens.
|
| Worst case, I'll just schlep it as an electrician or some
| kind of consultant.
|
| $200k jobs seem hopelessly out of reach and I have no real
| idea how to rectify what is seemingly wrong with my track
| record.
| ilikerashers wrote:
| Don't know where you live but $200k as a consultant should
| be achievable with the right skill set.
| 71a54xd wrote:
| I'm in the US
| sBqQu3U0wH wrote:
| >I know that office work is desirable for a reason (people like
| to sit down!!) but I think there might be something inspiring and
| rewarding about working with me hands.
|
| Before I became a programmer I worker various odd jobs during
| summer holidays and some time during my first years in
| university. It was mostly unqualified job at construction sites,
| delivery of household appliances, farm work, etc. Of course, you
| are not aiming at that kind of work but I just wanted to share my
| experience of "working with me hands" - it absolutely sucks.
| Cold, exhausted, wet, dirty or any combination of these, I didn't
| earn much and sometimes I worked for >14 hours just for a little
| bit of more pay, I also often had to wake up very early. Office
| job is soul-rotting but at least it's physically comfortable and
| I am really happy I have one now.
| htatche wrote:
| Yes, twice. I tried starting a career as a guide in the
| mountains, but after passing my certs realised that it would take
| me too long (years) to achieve any kind of financial stability,
| all of that whilst being away from my family a lot of the time.
| In the end, the pay would still be significantly lower and
| volatile compared to a dev job.
|
| Also worked as a plumber for nearly a year. You do get the
| satisfaction of not being glued to the screen every day of the
| year, and actually seeing the job you did at the end of the day.
| Again though, you need to put up with some kind of people with
| whom you may not have the same conversations you're used to, plus
| the low pay, plus the constant labor. It was freeing to do it for
| a year, but not any longer.
|
| I'm now in a very boring job which pays pretty well, and my
| thinking now is how can I become less dependent on my dev salary,
| so if I burnout again (and I know it will happen), I can take an
| extended breather again before going back to my desk.
| aaron695 wrote:
| IT -> Manual laborer gas industry.
|
| It's rewarding, been to beautiful places, met whole other (blue
| collar) subcultures. But it's really hard to know if it's life
| positive. It's certainly not for life, screw that. Manual work
| keeps you fit but it breaks the body more. It's also dangerous
| which is an ok price to pay for experiences but not for living
| life.
|
| Volunteering in IT in a developing country (1 year turned to 2.5
| years) unconditionally positive, travel, different people,
| different challenges, different parts of the brain used.
|
| > Did you miss the money and status?
|
| Money yes, but if I got my tickets I could be on similar to
| before. Status, that's a UK thing. I literally lol on the idea
| people in IT have status.
| mboperator wrote:
| I was a staff software engineer (front end lol so take that for
| what it is) at a medium sized B2B SaaS company that turned into a
| unicorn during my time there.
|
| I quit in 2019 to start a company. In 2020 my time was split
| 80/20 between building a company and working alongside brothers
| and sisters in my local church.
|
| In the past couple of years I've degreased kitchens, demolished
| walls, hauled concrete, done some electrical, metal work,
| automotive, woodworking, janitorial, hauled bags of salt and
| piled em up two stories high in a metal warehouse during a
| thunderstorm. Dirt under your nails work.
|
| Yes 80% of my time was still tech (working on hardware though,
| which is a nice change) but I wouldn't give the 20% for the
| world.
|
| There's a deep satisfaction in putting forth real effort -
| mentally and physically with sweat and sometimes blood - doing
| something that's taxing, alongside and for the people in your
| community you know and love.
|
| The things that separate and seem so large - cultural background,
| socioeconomic status, upbringing - they melt away when you're in
| the dirt laboring together.
|
| And I understand that this is coming from a privileged viewpoint.
| And that I had the choice to take on these things while others
| don't. But in a way that makes it more meaningful.
|
| Jesus didn't have to empty Himself of His power. God Himself
| chose to humble Himself taking the form of a man and instead of
| being a ruler over the humanity while He was here, He chose to
| live among the lowest of the low. To love and care for the folks
| that society tried to pretend didn't exist without any gain, self
| aggrandization, or virtue signaling. To die for us in order that
| if we turn away from the world and towards Him in faith we would
| be saved from the sin inside of us that separates us from God and
| warrants His judgment.
|
| Jesus' love makes me want to be like Him. I'm nowhere close --
| often foolish and more often still selfish. But in His presence
| there's fullness of joy and an abundance of life that's only
| found in sacrificing one's self to Him.
| gabereiser wrote:
| Jesus was outcast by the temple for speaking against Jewish
| law. That kind made him "of the people". Anyway, giving back to
| one's community - either through church or a volunteer
| organization like Habitat for Humanity or Food Banks are very
| purposeful when money is taken out of the equation.
| IKLOL wrote:
| [dead]
| paulcole wrote:
| > There's a deep satisfaction in putting forth real effort -
| mentally and physically with sweat and sometimes blood - doing
| something that's taxing, alongside and for the people in your
| community you know and love.
|
| I don't know if I'm alone in this, but I've never felt this. I
| have no interest in this and take no satisfaction from it. If
| somebody wants something from me I'll give my money. Obviously
| I give my time for my job so I get money but that's only
| because I have to work.
|
| If I didn't have to work, I wouldn't. I took 3 years off once
| and kept to myself and loved it. Didn't contribute to society
| besides spending money.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| I don't get it either. I'm a very senior engineer and I also
| live on a horse sanctuary. Taking care of horses is hard,
| very physical work that _has_ to be done every day,
| regardless of weather or how deathly ill you feel.
|
| It's a pain in the ass. People ask if it's rewarding. No,
| it's just pain in the ass labor that has to get done. The
| only reason I do it is so my wife doesn't have to do all the
| work by herself.
| padobson wrote:
| _I took 3 years off once and kept to myself and loved it._
|
| Were you stoned the whole time?
|
| I only ask because if you're loving what you're doing, then
| there's usually some modus operandi or Summum bonum driving
| you.
|
| A really good high is pretty straightforward.
|
| Most others I know about tend to require something that
| contributes to a community, but certainly study or meditation
| can be lonely yet meaningful pursuits.
| paulcole wrote:
| Nope! Took molly once during those 3 years, but other than
| that I've abstained from drugs, alcohol, and soda pop my
| entire life (I'm 100% non-religious though).
|
| I read books, went to the gym, went on walks, rode my bike,
| hung out with friends, went on dates, went to the movies,
| went on the internet, and that was it. Absolute best time
| of my life.
| travisporter wrote:
| I was with you until "only" in the very last sentence.
| iknowstuff wrote:
| Ah yes god
| bazmattaz wrote:
| The man himself
| windexh8er wrote:
| > Dirt under your nails work.
|
| I feel like this is important, at least for me, to maintain a
| balance. I have a small bit of land. I'm often building with
| wood or metal. I'm lucky enough to have a shop/outbuilding
| where I can do those things like machine, weld, paint, cut,
| etc.
|
| I grew up in a small town (less than 3500 people) and I was a
| pretty fanatical gear head. I thought, at around 10, I had my
| mind made up and I was going to be a mechanical engineer. It
| was a way to combine two things I loved: computers and
| machines. But then I stumbled across a new undergrad program at
| one of our state universities focusing on networking,
| programming and *nix OSes and fell down that rabbit hole. On
| one hand I'm glad I did, on the other hand I'm still tinkering
| with things like Fusion 360 and vCarve. Maybe it's that it's
| not my professional life but building real things has a
| different reward. I've built, extended and upgraded countless
| corporate networks and have mostly specialized in network
| security over the years. But it's really good to physically
| build or fix something. I've got dirt and grease under my nails
| often.
| joenot443 wrote:
| That's a really refreshing and admirable career story, thank
| you for sharing. I think so many people's problems with their
| mental wellbeing would dramatically improve if they had a
| community which fosters the type of 20% work you're describing.
| Great stuff.
| idiotsecant wrote:
| Anyone romanticizing physical work based on doing it as an
| unpaid hobby is not experiencing what it's like to _actually
| rely on that kind of work to survive_. You aren 't 'living like
| the common people do' because you do some work for your church
| sometimes. You're an otherwise rich tech worker who also likes
| to do physical things sometimes as part of a community.
|
| Working as a shift engineer at an industrial facility is not
| even remotely the same thing.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| This does distort the market for everyone who actually try to
| get paid for cleaning and mechanical work...
| screwturner68 wrote:
| I equate this to the people working with habitat for humanity
| (no offense it's a great program) but these people are for
| the most part cos playing construction workers. But there's
| no foreman busting your ass because you are moving too slow
| or the general disregard for safety because you only have 3
| days to frame out the house and it rained yesterday. It's no
| different than when the CEO works the register at some coffee
| place or fast food joint -look at me I work hard just like
| the little people. It's a show, in the end they go back to
| their rarefied positions and their outrageous salary not
| understanding that somebody has to do that back breaking work
| every day and for a wage a lot people wouldn't get out of bed
| for. I'd also add that they likely did a shit job that would
| gt you fired if you weren't working for free.
|
| Do it everyday and live off the low wages for a year and then
| come back and tell me how fulfilling it is.
| 6510 wrote:
| > Do it everyday and live off the low wages for a year and
| then come back and tell me how fulfilling it is.
|
| That makes no difference, it is still a choice. As soon as
| you've figured out you can rub 2 stones together and make
| fire you will never [again] get to experience the cold
| nights as something unavoidable.
|
| Why do we work at all? Why not travel the world and enjoy
| ourselves? The only reason I can think of is that
| insecurity is terrifying. Then the next guy pulls his
| guitar out of its bag and people start throwing money in
| his hat.
|
| Escape velocity right there!
| mahogany wrote:
| Huh, what an interesting and specific rant toward Habitat
| for Humanity volunteers. Is it your experience that those
| volunteers pretend to be "real" construction workers?
| ransom1538 wrote:
| "Anyone romanticizing physical work based on doing it as an
| unpaid hobby"
|
| Exactly. Being homeless is different than camping. One is a
| mental hell hole of despair. The other is fishing and
| laughing with friends.
| explaininjs wrote:
| Homelessness is not a mental hell hole of despair, and
| claiming it is does more to dehumanize the homeless than
| anything.
|
| Being in a mental hell hole of disparity is a mental hell
| hole of despair, but that can come with any profession at
| any position on the socioeconomic ladder.
|
| (am homeless)
| nerdchum wrote:
| [flagged]
| [deleted]
| throwaway675309 wrote:
| [flagged]
| evilos wrote:
| "Being homeless is not always bad!" is not a take I was
| expecting to see today.
|
| I'd bet 99.99% of homeless people would extremely prefer
| not to be.
| norgie wrote:
| Where is that in the parent comment?
| explaininjs wrote:
| Thanks for this. All I said is we don't live in a deep
| hole of despair. Sure parts are bad, but I don't know of
| anyone who lives with absolutely no bad in their life.
| aatd86 wrote:
| Yes, strange. Homeless yet posting on hackernews is not
| what the vast majority of homeless people are doing I
| bet.
|
| I've seen some people struggle and they didn't have that
| kind of leisure time.
|
| Perhaps it's homeless as in not owning an address? Don't
| know. Can happen given rent prices... Been there.
| CogitoCogito wrote:
| > I'd bet 99.99% of homeless people would extremely
| prefer not to be.
|
| I'm curious what /u/explaininjs would have to say about
| this given he/she claims to be homeless.
| explaininjs wrote:
| The real percentage is far smaller. I suspect the parent
| has only encountered homeless beggars, in the context of
| being begged at. If that's all you knew I could see how
| you might think they hate it.
|
| In reality homeless place a higher value on personal
| freedom than most, and the absolute happiest people I've
| ever met were all homeless with no intention of being
| otherwise. For these, possessions often come from
| donations they receive from people they meet and develop
| real connections with.
| 6510 wrote:
| It is different in that you get to fish and laugh with
| friends the year round in stead of just 14 days recovery
| from that to-fast moving conveyor belt in that noisy
| stinking factory for that boss who hates you.
| padobson wrote:
| Didn't think I'd see camels going through needle eyes on HN
| today, but here we are!
| LeFantome wrote:
| Big assumption that people are going to get that reference
| joenot443 wrote:
| It's among the most famous of Christian metaphors, I'd
| actually be surprised if it went over the head of a well-
| read individual.
| meetingthrower wrote:
| Did you know "needles eye" does not refer to sewing
| needle? I'm told it actually referred to something like a
| cattle gate. So the message is actually "hard but not
| impossible..."
| krapp wrote:
| According to Wikipedia, there's no actual evidence for
| such a gate, so this seems like apocrypha meant to soften
| the message.
|
| But given that we're talking about the man who preached
| "give up everything you have and follow me" and "let the
| dead bury their own dead" I'd favor the more radical
| interpretation being the most likely.
|
| edit: Oh yeah, parable of the talents, too.
| the_only_law wrote:
| [flagged]
| ratsimihah wrote:
| i google it and it worked out
| jasonladuke0311 wrote:
| Crazy huh? Almost like a peculiar arrangement of words
| might be referenced elsewhere.
| ramesh31 wrote:
| God no. I crawled out of that dirt to make a life for myself. You
| don't wanna go back there. Every single morning I wake up and
| thank God, Buhdda, Krishna, Zeus, Allah, whoever, for my career
| and job. You have no idea the misery that 90% of the human
| population is trapped in for life.
| flave wrote:
| I feel you man.
|
| Don't want to be a selfish bastard but equally don't want to be
| a sad bastard.
| charlie0 wrote:
| What's a Coffee Engineer? Are you engineering coffee plants, or
| is that a euphemism for a barista? I've started seeing the word
| engineer get appended to a lot more job roles these past few
| years; Sales Engineer, Technical Support Engineer, etc.
| Jarmsy wrote:
| Since they mention being on the road, I'm guessing
| repair/maintenance of coffee machines? I know what you mean
| though - I remember a time when the coffee machine was broken
| with a sign on it saying "an engineer is on the way to fix it",
| which some of the chartered civil engineers in the office found
| mildly offensive!
| yamtaddle wrote:
| I'd assumed something to do with roasters, but yeah, maybe it's
| more mundane than that.
| 0x445442 wrote:
| I was a Hydro-Porcelain Engineer while in college.
| flave wrote:
| Yeah lol. Sometimes called Espresso Machine Engineer.
| Basically, the people who provide commercial espresso machines
| (usually a roaster) offer the cafes (and offices etc)
| installation, service and repairs. The Coffee Engineer goes out
| and goes that work.
|
| Medium and long term, you would likely go self employed and
| then the roasters contract work out to you.
| HPsquared wrote:
| "job title engineering"
| tootie wrote:
| No. I think it's a "grass is always greener" fallacy. Working
| behind a cash register is likely going to be far more frustrating
| than working with tech stakeholders and be a lot more physically
| fatiguing. You really just can't attach so much of your self-
| worth to your job ever. If you have a hole in your life, then
| picking up a hammer or paintbrush doesn't seem likely to fill it.
| Maybe finding a job in your area of expertise working for a
| company that has more of a positive mission can add a little
| extra satisfaction without forcing you to give up too much. But
| really making personal connections is what's going to give you
| the most. If not with co-workers, then falling in love works
| pretty well. So does having kids.
| david422 wrote:
| I can tell you that prior to working in the professional industry
| I took some lower paid manual jobs.
|
| There is a big quality of life difference by being able to "buy
| whatever you want" - whether that be the latest watch, or fixing
| your boiler that just broke - without worrying about if you can
| afford your rent that month.
|
| I think there is also a big mental difference between - I don't
| have a choice with my job and this is what I'm stuck doing at
| this pay grade "forever" - vs - I'm doing this by choice and if I
| really need to I can go do something better.
|
| Whenever I think I have it tough in software I look back and
| think - well, at least I'm not in those other jobs. Those other
| jobs did have upsides, but a lot of downsides.
| kvnnews wrote:
| Don't do it. You have good circumstances you should not throw
| away. If you're really that bored all day, find a job in the same
| field that is more challenging. Just know that in a few short
| years that greener pasture you tricked yourself into will become
| boring again or worse. There's nothing new under the sun. My
| honest advice, seek Jesus.
| johnny99k wrote:
| Most manual jobs are going to pay less and hurt your body more. I
| think your best bet is to save tons of money and then retire
| early, so you can do what you want.
|
| Most jobs (manual or office work) are not rewarding and don't
| provide meaning.
| baremetal wrote:
| Pay is worse, and it is harder on your body.
|
| But I can tell you have never done a manual job because you
| would understand the sense of satisfaction at the end of the
| day when you gaze upon the fruits of your labors.
|
| Everyday I drive past houses I built and people now live in.
| Very rewarding.
| pawelmurias wrote:
| Not in every manual job you are building something cool and
| tangible like a house.
| baremetal wrote:
| Even ditch digging is satisfying after the fact.
| andjd wrote:
| I'm reading between the lines here, but my guess is that you're
| interested in the coffee role because you're passionate about
| coffee. It also sounds like you've looked at the pay cut, and
| decided you can live with it. (Take the long view ... if you make
| a career of this job, will you be able to afford to live where
| you want to? Will you be able to comfortably retire?
|
| I suspect that if after a year or two you decide that this more
| manual work isn't the life improver you expect, you should still
| be able to get another job in your current field. It might be a
| little harder than if you were to look for a new job without the
| gap, but will be much easier than breaking into it in the first
| place.
|
| You can also talk to your manager -- they might be able to offer
| you an unpaid leave of absence for a while which would give you
| the space to try the new job while keeping your options open.
|
| I'm familiar with the finance industry in NY which has a heavy
| work-hard-play-hard culture; or put another way, they have
| demanding expectations, but pay you enough for you to tolerate
| it. I assume London is similar. Switching to a similar sales role
| in a different industry might be an alternative that could work
| for you as well. It might be less of a pay cut, but give you more
| capacity to pursue things you're passionate outside of work.
| meigwilym wrote:
| Before software I worked a number of blue collar jobs. Despite
| sharing the same feelings as you, there's no way I'm taking a pay
| cut and going back to how I lived before.
|
| I would remind you that the grass is always greener.
|
| Here's a thread that was on the /r/bestOf subreddit the other day
| about finding meaning in one's work:
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/comments/13ohn5b/is...
| zeku wrote:
| You can do whatever you want. As long as you're employed enough
| to meet your bills and retire one day.
|
| I also haven't done the switch, but consider getting into a
| physical hobby AND also perhaps switching to a lower hours less
| stress role in your current field that will free you up to spend
| more time on your hobby.
|
| I worked manual labor through high school and most of college. Be
| careful of a job that has repetitive motions that can cause you
| overuse injures. They're very common in the 50+ crowd in the blue
| collar area I'm from.
|
| Good luck!
| baremetal wrote:
| I was in tech for more than a decade. I would go back _if_ I
| could find a well run company with a good team rather than the
| corporate bureaucracy that sucks the fun out of coding.
|
| I am currently building out my farm.
|
| I am also a general contractor.
|
| And the end of the day you feel a profound sense of
| accomplishment when you gaze upon your the fruits of your labors.
| Everyday I drive past houses and businesses that I framed and now
| people live and work in them.
|
| Pretty soon I will be petting my cows and swimming in my pond.
| Also there is nothing like a spring morning outside, sun on your
| face, birds chirping. Good for mental health.
| tokyolights2 wrote:
| I spent two years during the pandemic working at a hand-made
| beeswax candle factory. I spent most of my day either running the
| wax filtering machine or dipping taper candles.
|
| When I received an email saying that my job was going to be work-
| from-home for the forseeable future, I knew that I had to quit.
| At the time I had really been relying on office friendships and
| work for too much of my socialization and self-image, so moving
| to a remote environment took too much away from me.
|
| I found the light factory work really enjoyable. It was so
| rewarding to make simple, high quality products wit my hands. It
| was also nice to have a job where I was interacting with a wider
| cross-section of people, as I tend to not really enjoy tech
| culture very much. I had forgotten what it was like to work in an
| environment where there is comradery among the staff and a
| healthy distrust of management. I feel like in tech people are
| always grovelling to their bosses and the C-suite, which rubs me
| the wrong way. A bunch of temporarily-embarrassed billionaires I
| guess.
|
| I'm back in tech now, but with the perspective that I am working
| to achieve some mid-term monetary goals. After I pay down my
| mortgage considerably so I can cut down my monthly expenses, I
| will highly consider going back to a crafting job of some sort.
| Life is too short to spend it on the computer.
| yboris wrote:
| A book that has been useful thinking about jobs:
|
| _Bullshit Jobs: A Theory_ by David Graeber
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Bullshit-Jobs-Theory-David-Graeber/dp...
|
| One thing from it that has been stuck in my mind: a common
| occurrence of people hating their jobs despite being paid to do
| quite-literally nothing. Part of the reason is that people
| generally want to be useful to society, and when they see their
| job as not doing that, it's hard to care or find satisfaction.
| aynyc wrote:
| I did manual labor (construction, gas station, etc.) work thru
| high school and college. For me, I would never ever go back to
| that life. But maybe your job is different than just pure manual
| labor. So good luck to you.
| [deleted]
| witchesindublin wrote:
| I think it also depends on your social background, the social
| life that you would lead, and what you want to be in the future?
|
| If you are from the UK, then you would need to consider how the
| change in social status would affect how you are perceived by
| your possible friends and family. Would you be happy having to
| deal with people who have a different mindset, different cultural
| pursuits, etc... than you?
|
| I think money is less of an issue as long as you make a nice
| middle class salary for where you live. A lot of the tech
| community seems to be obsessed with money making, but that is
| more of a trait shared by Americans, and not widely found in
| Europe nor Asia. The main issue is whether you are physically
| capable of manual labour.
| AshleysBrain wrote:
| Someone I know pulled off some pretty big career changes: from a
| sound engineer working in windowless rooms, to a professional
| gardener, then to a software engineer. After several years
| working full time mainly outdoors as a gardener - including
| through the winters - they were looking forwards to working
| indoors again. And the pay was much better in software. So while
| some of us stuck in the office might gaze out the window on a
| sunny day and daydream about having a job out there in the fresh
| air, it can go the other way too.
|
| There's several people here commenting that physical work can be
| refreshing and rewarding compared to office jobs, but often
| that's only in a part-time or volunteer capacity. I can attest to
| it being a nice change, but only ever as a part-time project. I
| would guess anything you do full time long-term will some time or
| another feel a bit of a grind. Manual work in particular can take
| a serious physical toll over the years, and being mostly sat down
| indoors for your job can end up being tempting too. I also know a
| couple of musicians who are perpetually on the road, and it's not
| always a glamorous globetrotting lifestyle - one said they mostly
| see highways and airports. But then there are great gigs too.
|
| I think there's probably no such thing as a perfect job. That's
| not to say a change can't be refreshing or worthwhile though!
| Perhaps it's just that after many years most people eventually
| get a bit tired of whatever they're doing, and then the grass can
| look greener on the other side.
| cm2012 wrote:
| I'd probably rather die if I had to work any physical job the
| rest of my life. Realms of the mind and thinking are so much more
| comfortable to me. Even hanging up picture frames gives me
| anxiety.
| jasonshen wrote:
| You might enjoy the interview I did with a 20 year software
| engineer veteran who did stint(albeit short) as an Amazon
| warehouse worker to get through burnout
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33072083
| 6510 wrote:
| exercise the brain -> better brain using your hands -> better
| hand coordination physical activity - > better endurance hurl
| heavy objects -> more strength etc each can be split up into more
| specific things like learning a new programming language or
| framework will come with similar but also different conditioning
| from filling taxes or writing a business plan. Just like drywall,
| Boxing and deadlift.
|
| If I rent out my thoughts to an employer there will be few
| thoughts left to use in my spare time. Same with tiring physical
| work. Memory and fine motor skills are available all day, every
| day but watch maker by day and watch maker by night might get
| really boring.
|
| Motivation is a bitch, doing something as a job is so much easier
| to stick with. If the job has you run up a mountain every day you
| will do it, if it's suppose to be a fitness goal or hobby you do
| have to show up.
|
| Each of the challenges in life has its perfect portion for the
| day, week, month, year. Say, run up the mountain twice 3
| days/week. You might write better books if you do it 24/7 for 4
| months/year.
|
| You have to figuring out the ideal amount of money to burn, how
| much to earn and the ideal number of hours per week per project.
|
| Thankfully life is completely pointless, there are no real goals.
| It's all about the journey. (Life could be sitting down all day,
| exploring the various foods of the world.) Every turn you make,
| every step along the way will take you further away from other
| things. When eventually the coffee comes out of your nose there
| are always other places to explore.
| davidbanham wrote:
| The biggest difference to my mind is that at end of a day you
| have something concrete to look at and say "I done that".
|
| In software or business we spend so much time on intangibles.
| Often worthwhile, but just not viscerally satisfying. "I am
| mentally fatigued because I refactored the whole controller layer
| of this app. It turned out the proposed redesign wasn't worth
| pursuing so we reverted the commit, but the knowledge gained from
| this spike was very valuable!"
|
| Hits very different to "All my muscles hurt. I dug that hole.
| That one right there."
|
| The line between being fulfilled by manual labour versus being
| crushed by it is flexibility. If you're choosing when to work and
| what to work on, you'll probably love it. When you're working
| through an injury on the hottest day of the year and the aircon
| on the truck is broken and all the fire in the area was put out
| days ago anyway... you'll wish you were refactoring.
| neilv wrote:
| I don't know what kind of work with your hands you mean, but for
| lighter working with hands, just be aware of risks like:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetitive_strain_injury
|
| If you mean hard labor, even if you're an active athlete, maybe
| talk with an expert on how that affects your body (doctor?
| physiotherapist?). I'd guess they might be able to advise on what
| to expect physically, how to condition yourself to help avoid
| serious injuries, the top 10 unfortunate moments that turn into
| permanent regret (e.g., lifting with back), what your time
| horizon should be before moving to supervisor or an easier field,
| etc.
|
| If you already have enough money stashed away to live
| comfortably, that helps: not only don't you get trapped in
| physical labor jobs if you stop enjoying it, but you'll avoid
| money-related stress (which adversely affects your health
| multiple ways, including making you more susceptible to injury).
| imadethis wrote:
| Right now I'm about 50/50 between software engineering and EMS.
| The value of the work I do as an EMT is obviously much greater,
| but the pay disparity is so vast it's hard to commit to the jump.
| Aside from what other comments have already noted, I'd get ready
| for work being much much harder on you and your body on a daily
| basis. You may not have to think about the job outside of working
| hours, but there's a new level of physical exhaustion that comes
| from being on your feet working 12 hours a day then doing the
| same the next day. And the next, and the next.
|
| Additionally, you may find the new rules and regs of your
| position to be grating. Since you're in sales, you can set your
| own schedule to some degree. That flips to needing to get
| permission to leave work for the slightest reason. This extends
| to relationships between you and your bosses as well. At my
| software job I tend to collaborate with management, in EMS I take
| orders.
| czbond wrote:
| You sound burnt out. Don't make large changes until you've first
| sought to take a longer vacation or sabbatical equivalent. Many
| companies offer some version of that.
|
| Really - figure out a rough sketch of what your PLAN is for the
| future.... not 1 year, not 5 but 10 and see how whatever your
| next step is fits into that to complement it. Ideally, take some
| trusted mates and run it by them too for a reality check.
| the_only_law wrote:
| > Really - figure out a rough sketch of what your PLAN is for
| the future.... not 1 year, not 5 but 10 and see how whatever
| your next step is fits into that to complement it.
|
| How the fuck can you reasonably plan for that. Even my short
| term plans were obliterated by shit like Covid and it's
| aftermath.
| czbond wrote:
| I'm not a Marine, but if their saying "Improvise, Adapt and
| Overcome" works in war, it can work anywhere.
| mschild wrote:
| Realistically, only to a small extent. The idea is more to
| run through what you're aiming for and give it a sanity
| check. Plans are adaptable and if they change that's
| perfectly fine, but you need to know what and why you're
| adapting. Making stuff up on the go with no goal in sight
| isn't really going to work.
| dukeyukey wrote:
| Plans are useless.
|
| Plannning is essential.
| the_only_law wrote:
| GP pretty clearly used the noun-form "plan(s)".
| dukeyukey wrote:
| Dunno who GP is but I was paraphrasing Eisenhower, in
| that any individual plan can be made useless very easily
| by stuff out of your control, but the planning process is
| essential.
| htag wrote:
| I agree. I've had five and ten year plans. Some of my five
| year plans even panned out. The vast majority of my one and
| five year plans fail as reality is too unpredictable.
|
| * Be careful to not fall into a local maximum. As years
| progress in a long plan you might find better opportunities
| by adapting. Think of the opportunity cost of sticking to
| your plan
|
| * As you execute the plan, you'll gain more knowledge and
| experience. This very frequently includes information that
| would have been useful in forming the plan. Try to anticipate
| what will give you this information and gain it as early in
| the plan as possible.
|
| * Change happens. You change. The world changes. Reevaluate
| your plans frequently.
|
| * Be careful of sunk cost fallacies. Even if you worked
| really hard to progress, sometimes the best corse of action
| is to walk away.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > I have an interview next week for a coffee engineer role which
| pays around a third of what I currently earn and would involve
| being on the road four out of five days.
|
| The most poignant tip I can give you: Do not jump straight into
| drastic career changes as a solution.
|
| You sound dissatisfied with your job or recent jobs, but you're
| projecting that dissatisfaction on to the entire career. It is a
| mistake to assume that all software engineering jobs are going to
| be as equally uninspiring as your current one. You've notified a
| job that is so completely different from your current work that
| you assume it must be better, but I assure you it comes with many
| downsides you haven't learned about yet. The grass is greener on
| the other side of the fence because you're less familiar with it.
|
| I've done a lot of career mentoring. Frequently, people come to
| the mentoring program dissatisfied with their current job and
| under the belief that they'll be happier if they abandon it all
| and do something different. My sample size is small, but for what
| it's worth I've only seen this work out once: The person hated
| software from the start, had only gotten into software because
| they thought it would pay well, and they weren't able to keep up
| with basic software tasks. Basically, they chose the wrong job
| for the wrong reasons and couldn't do it.
|
| For everyone else, drastic changes usually result in some hard-
| learned lessons that they miss their old career and the money
| that came with it.
|
| Taking 1/3 the pay to travel 4/5 the time might sound refreshing
| to someone who is tired of sitting at a computer right now, but I
| doubt you'll be excited about it after 1000 days of grinding
| through travel delays, missing events at home, layovers, and a
| retirement account that isn't growing any more.
|
| Pick a less disruptive and less permanent way to change up your
| life first. Do manual labor on the weekends. Volunteer somewhere.
| Take an extended vacation. Landscape your yard. Help your elderly
| neighbors clean up their yard. Anything to start adding some
| variety to your life without detailing your career to try it.
| flave wrote:
| I really appreciate your comment.
|
| I left this out of the OP because I didn't want to to be too
| verbose but this decision is a long time coming for me.
|
| In the last two years I've started volunteering, I repair and
| sell coffee machines as a hobby and I row and play rugby three
| to five times a week.
|
| I've really considered this deeply and I think I'm like the
| example you gave - I was never suited for the world of offices.
| I was good at school but hated that, and good at university and
| I hated that too. Then I just got jobs in the highest paying
| fields I could find and went from there.
|
| I think you give good advice but I can't help thinking that
| life is short and if I had a heart attack and was being wheeled
| into A&E, I would think that I was fucking moron for having
| spent so many days sat behind a PC.
| flyingshoes wrote:
| Oh hey -- this is me.
|
| I was a software engineer for close to 6 years, and now I'm a
| barista (read more here:
| https://thoughtfulcoffeenyc.substack.com/p/roast-24-the-bari...
| ). The change in role isn't permanent, as I intend to go back to
| tech to save money and then leave it to try and open a cafe in a
| few years.
|
| But my thoughts on your questions:
|
| > How did you find it (assuming the job)?
|
| At the moment, I enjoy it! I do think... I'd likely get bored
| after a year or two since there really isn't a lot of variety to
| the barista job. I'm able to practice and develop my social
| skills which wasn't something I was able to do as an engineer,
| and it's kinda exciting waking up knowing you'll get to interact
| with new people. In tech, it was just the same people over and
| over again -- which isn't bad, but I remember always wishing that
| I could interact with more/new people.
|
| > Did you miss the money and status?
|
| Yes. Lol. Also a reason why I intend to return to tech... I can't
| really live my current lifestyle off a barista salary. I don't
| care much for the status, but I do miss the freedom that money
| brings. I also miss the flexibility that tech has.
|
| Anyways, hopefully my answers were helpful to you!
| yourapostasy wrote:
| _> ...practice and develop my social skills which wasn 't
| something I was able to do as an engineer..._
|
| An affiliated note to junior engineers out there reading this.
| The more senior your role in software development
| organizations, the more you rely upon your social skills to
| demonstrate value. OP's six years would only have exposed them
| to the very beginnings of that effect that are often subtle at
| that stage.
|
| Also, if you go into any client-facing software role like sales
| engineering, your value is tied directly into your social skill
| development from Day 0.
|
| Dale Carnegie's classic _How to Win Friends and Influence
| People_ is a decent place to start if you are interested but
| don 't have a network or a mentor to lean upon (classic chicken
| and egg problem for introverts who want to learn to "pass" as
| extroverts or even become extroverts).
| draw_down wrote:
| [dead]
| czbond wrote:
| Barista and opening cafe? My suggestion is to learn the
| economics of those businesses rather than the operations. You
| can hire the operational side - and those businesses are
| economically margin tight.
| vector_spaces wrote:
| I spent about a decade running purchasing teams for food
| companies and startups before changing careers. People with
| tech or academic business operations backgrounds tend to
| approach food businesses like this, whether well capitalized
| startups or less ambitious pet projects to start, say, a pie
| company or a coffee shop, and consequently go to zero very
| quickly. The people I've seen have the most lasting success
| in this space are, perhaps unsurprisingly, non-tech people
| who have simply worked in the business from the ground up,
| often without much formal training.
|
| The short of it is that food business is different and
| extremely difficult in that, aside from the razor-thin
| margins, culture and relationships are absolutely critical,
| moreso than in any other industry. In other words, you won't
| get far treating your employees and vendors (and by
| extension, your customers) like fungible APIs, because word
| that you're kind of a jerk will spread quickly, and they'll
| all end up killing you.
|
| Anyway, all that said, the parent has the right intuition
| about this. Work on the ground floor, because doing that will
| give you much better intuitions and insights about the
| economics and cadence of the business and you'll probably end
| up interacting with employees, vendors, and customers. Then
| learn the economics more formally. Ideally find a mentor in
| the industry, and remember to humanize everyone at every
| step, no matter who they are.
| debatem1 wrote:
| This is excellent advice for arts businesses as well. If
| you have the relationships you have a business, even if
| it's subcritical for you. If you don't have the
| relationships you just have debt in disguise.
| flyingshoes wrote:
| Thanks for the advice!
|
| I agree the economics are important, and I definitely intend
| to learn them. I just also want to know how to barista and be
| able to operate the cafe!
|
| I enjoy serving coffee, and I want to be interacting with my
| customers/staff/etc. :)
|
| I'm friendly with a few local small cafes (one shop only),
| and the owners all involved with service.
| appleiigs wrote:
| I think your advice of not learning the operations is really
| bad advice, especially for a small business. If it's a low
| margin business, hiring people when you should be doing the
| work yourself isn't going to help. Small business owner
| definitely need to get their hands dirty. While I'm not
| totally convinced, Elon Musk thinks owners should get their
| hands dirty even when in a large corporation.
| piker wrote:
| > and those businesses are economically margin tight
|
| Read: terrible, mostly just labor-intensive real estate
| plays.
| czbond wrote:
| ^ This. I have a tendency to abrasively be emotionally
| insensitive to people's dreams and am trying to be
| supportively realistic.
| somenameforme wrote:
| It depends on how you look at things. In many ways the
| point of dreams is more about the pursuit of them, than
| the achievement of such. Because it's not like you
| achieve something and finally you're there - it's done,
| you've made it. Well it might be that way for a brief
| period. But in short order you'll be onto the next dream.
|
| It's human nature. We're not content, which is probably a
| really great evolutionary driver, but not really a great
| driver for things like stability. And it's not all
| material. Even something like e.g. stoicism is largely a
| dream. It's a never-ending battle which you'll never win,
| but the point isn't about winning it, but about finding
| fulfillment in the journey along the way.
| rubicon33 wrote:
| > which is probably a really great evolutionary driver
|
| While true, I find this ironic since this constant drive
| for new things is a huge source of dissatisfaction,
| unhappiness, and general lack of desire to procreate.
|
| You can tell me all day to find fulfillment in the
| journey, but life isn't setup that way. Most often the
| highest paying work is devoid of novelty and is mostly an
| exercise in focus and repetition.
|
| We spend our most healthy and youthful years, sitting a
| chair staring at a monitor for the majority of our days
| and the worst part is we're payed so incredibly well that
| you'd be a fool to do anything else.
|
| "Enjoy the journey" I hear everyone say. What journey?
| patching-trowel wrote:
| I admire your impulse to be more sensitive to people's
| dreams.
| dml2135 wrote:
| Lol, well put. I feel you there.
| mark_l_watson wrote:
| Well, not really a job, but I enjoy volunteering at my local food
| bank. Career wise I am all in on tech (written 20+ AI books, have
| 50+ patents) but it is refreshing and personally rewarding to do
| something useful that is non-tech.
|
| I am in my 70s, but when I was a 25 year old computer programmer
| I looked into having two part time jobs, one programming and one
| something like working on a fishing boat. I ended up not going
| the working in a fishing boat route, settling for working in tech
| an average of 30 hours a week, and bought a sailboat.
| mywittyname wrote:
| > would involve being on the road four out of five days.
|
| This is bad for your health. Being stuck in a vehicle is worse
| than being in an office chair. And no matter what you say now,
| you're going to end up eating a lot of take out and not really
| exercising.
|
| Something to consider.
| pk-protect-ai wrote:
| I would die from boredom if I chose this job. Have you thought
| about being a plumber? You'll probably earn the same amount as
| now, but you'll get more diverse communications with it, and this
| job will not be replaced by AI within the next 20 years (IMHO, I
| might be wrong though).
| the_only_law wrote:
| > You'll probably earn the same amount as now
|
| Sure you will...
|
| https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472152.htm
|
| https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151252.htm
| liamtuohyff wrote:
| Software engineer for 12 years then got depressed about the job.
| Got into firefighting because I want to go to heaven and figured
| that with the 1 day on 2 days off schedule I can continue
| software on the side anyway.
|
| Turns out just because you are a good software engineer, it
| doesnt mean you will be a good firefighter, and I need to
| dedicate a huge amount of time learning the job because software
| is a creativity focued job and Fire/EMS is a memory based one,
| and i have a bad memory.
|
| The sleep is terrible, im an introvert and have a hard time
| getting along with others at the firehouse, but will say without
| a doubt it was absolute best decision ive ever made in my life.
| You will never see the facial expressions behind a computer you
| see in this job.
|
| Im doing creative data analytics for fire depts to see how to
| save more lives, and thinking about making the swap to law
| enforcement just because i think my past as a software engineer
| can save more lives there. One example of my analytics is posting
| cops in areas where statistically it isnt likely for fire/EMS to
| show up in time, if the cop gets on sceane sooner, they can begin
| patient care sooner, and unltimaly increase rosc rare. You gotta
| be the change you want to see in the world you know?
| poo-yie wrote:
| That's awesome! Since you mention data analytics and being able
| to get to people quickly, have a look at 'set covering problem'
| for ways to find optimal solutions.
| bazzert wrote:
| Inspiring!
| rubicon33 wrote:
| > Got into firefighting because I want to go to heaven
|
| Can you explain what you mean by this?
| whamlastxmas wrote:
| Maybe he wants to build a ladder to heaven
| recursive wrote:
| Seems clear to me. Paraphrase as "want to do good", as
| opposed to doing well.
| [deleted]
| screwturner68 wrote:
| The firefights that I know are dead. Most left their wives
| with small children. I had the opportunity but I knew too
| many men who went to work and never came home.
| joseda-hg wrote:
| Isn't doing good because you want a reward the opposite of the
| pious good you're supposed to enact to get to heaven?
|
| I've been wrestling with this line of thought for a while,
| having recently rewatched The Good Place brought it back
| liamtuohyff wrote:
| That is a good question, I live way below my means - One day
| i would like to have a wife and kids and as long as we are
| all fed our daily bread then thats all i ask for. The data
| analytics part was all volenteered and unpaid. If i stopped
| getting paid tomorrow, i would still volenteer to do it, i
| dont know where that puts me. Jesus healed people, hospitals
| heal people, i dont know of any hospitals that will train you
| how to heal over a long period of time without also wanting
| you on thier payroll
| dahwolf wrote:
| I haven't yet, but it's in my future.
|
| It's not realistic for me to retire early and I suspect I will be
| obsolete in the tech industry long before the age of 70.
|
| My plan is to work on lowering my living expenses to the point
| that as of the age of 50-55, I can switch to a job that is local,
| not in tech, lower paid, in the physical world, connected to real
| people. It's obviously not going to be very hard labor at that
| age.
|
| The idea is to pay down the entire mortgage, optimize the home
| for energy use, and reduce to just one small cheap car, or maybe
| even none at all. There's plenty smaller items to save on, but
| that's the bulk of it. Funny thing is that it's barely even a
| lifestyle downgrade.
|
| It should add that this is our plan. My wife is in. She has an
| office job, not in tech, but is equally done with it. A massive
| waste of life, it drains the soul. We estimate that by that time,
| it requires as little as 1.5 x minimum wage to keep things going.
| Which is an absolute joke compared to our current combined
| earning power.
|
| I'm under no illusion that our potential new jobs are going to be
| terribly exciting. It doesn't have to be.
|
| Our plan isn't just driven by a disgust for the modern office or
| fear of becoming obsolete, it's also because we realized that
| retirement is a scam. We both have a large family and the general
| pattern we observe is that around the age of 70, most people are
| broken, exhausted, dead or have lost their partner. They do not
| thrive in magical new freedoms, travel, or hobbies for some 2
| decades. They perish. They sit, talk and complain and slowly see
| their peers fall apart.
|
| Brutal, but the lesson is to not delay gratification that long.
| Work with the assumption that retirement sucks and that you're on
| the clock to improve your life during your good years.
|
| Anyway, what was the question again?
| bodhi_mind wrote:
| I've learned recently that you'll never find long lasting
| happiness by chasing it. You have everything you need already
| inside you to find happiness and joy in whatever you're doing :)
| Good luck!
| Brulaap wrote:
| I'm pretty sure there's a lot more to life than being really,
| really, ridiculously good-looking. And I plan on finding out what
| that is. - Derek Zoolander.
| gotrythis wrote:
| I took a summer job as a painter and did some other contracting
| stuff in my 30s after being in tech my whole life. I went from
| setting my hours to getting up at 5 am to be picked up to go to a
| job site, working hard all day, coming home, and going to yoga
| for body repair.
|
| By the end of the summer, I was ripped. Best shape of my life,
| and I got paid to do it. I was very tempted to keep doing that
| for a living and probably would have had a more consistent
| income.
| weinzierl wrote:
| I switched in the opposite direction, from an engineering role to
| software development. My engineering role wasn't exactly manual
| labour, but at least I had to deal with real hardware sometimes,
| the joy of which I wrote about in another thread recently [1].
|
| Overall I believe the amount of manual labour had little to do
| with my job satisfaction ever. For me it is more about building
| stuff that others find useful and I need to be involved in much
| of the process. If you never see the outcome of your work it's
| probably inevitable to find it pointless at some point. If you
| only ever deal with the outcome of others (like in sales) you
| might find it pointless as well (at least I did).
|
| Coming back to your question: I think it is generally believed
| that jobs with manual labour often enable one to build things
| from start to finish or at least be responsible for a closed
| tangible process (like maybe being a coffee engineer) while
| information work rarely does.
|
| I, for one, am not convinced that is the case and I would like to
| encourage you to at least look into possibilities that give you
| satisfaction while still being adequately paid (which manual
| labour is very rarely). As a physicist you have the best
| prerequisites one can imagine.
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36055688
| ravedave5 wrote:
| I suggest working out instead. With manual jobs your back hurts?
| too bad - you have to go in. If you want to be physical be
| physical, you don't need a job to tell you to do it.
| Grustaf wrote:
| Going to the gym is pretty different from doing manual labour,
| it's not really a solution.
| sixstringtheory wrote:
| Sure, of course it's different. It's much safer, you can get
| much more variety of motions and routines, you can take a day
| off or stop early if you need to, you can listen to a
| podcast, read a book or watch tv.
| Grustaf wrote:
| Manual labor is not just about getting physical exercise.
|
| I go to the gym every day and take it very seriously, but
| it's a different thing. Just like doing sudoku can't take
| the place of an intellectually stimulating job.
| poo-yie wrote:
| That's true! I think the idea is more along the lines of 'do
| it on your own terms'.
| poo-yie wrote:
| A lot of wisdom here! I'm in my mid 50s and sometimes have
| lower back trouble. If I thought my lower back could take it, I
| would seriously consider leaving software engineering and
| switch to a trade.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Why would a manual job not be professional?
|
| I have massive respect for the trades people, waitstaff etc, they
| do much if not all of the actual work on this planet if you
| discount automation and DIY. A lot of my time has been spent on
| getting proficient at DIY and every time I look at the end result
| I know for a fact that even a junior schooled in the art would
| have done a better job than I did. It still gives me
| satisfaction, but it also shows me that there is no such thing as
| a job that isn't worth doing and doing well.
|
| I'm not sure what a 'coffee engineer' is though.
| flave wrote:
| Install, maintain and repair commercial espresso machines.
|
| I don't really understand your question. In the UK there are
| professions and none of them (apart from maybe Surgeon) are
| manual.
|
| You can split hairs about terminology and how it's 'telling' -
| but it's just words.
| neom wrote:
| In the UK white collar work is often referred to as
| "professional work" vs a trade.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Yes, and it's quite telling in its own right.
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| If you're smart enough for a physics degree, a sales/finance job,
| and your own start up, then you are likely smart enough to make
| it as a coffee engineer too.
| geff82 wrote:
| While I still love my IT work which consumes most of my time, my
| wife and I actually decided to "make" more stuff and possibly
| make money with it: crafting photos on real film in our darkroom,
| doing electronics, invent wood kits, etcetcetc.
| roundandround wrote:
| I've known a quite few people who dropped out of tech around the
| dotcom bust and I've not really had a very normal continuous
| career..
|
| As afar as manual labor and car(?) travel, I would recommend
| against doing that without a specific trajectory in mind that
| you've already been working on. For example if you will be
| transitioning to more of a lifestyle as an owner of coffee shops.
|
| Most people I know who went into the trades and stayed had pretty
| good advantages compared to ones that were really looking for
| anything open to an entry level worker.
| thorin wrote:
| You are living the dream, I suspect, from a UK perspective. I
| have a similar background. Not sure what you mean by coffee
| engineer? I have friends who are plumbers (gas safe) or builders
| etc. They can make the same money as me, or more, but it's hard
| work and you have a lot of liability on you. You also need to
| manage the business side as well as the work, if you want to be
| self employed and hence make decent money.
|
| Despite being very sporty, I'm now finding in my mid 40s that I'm
| hitting various physical issues. Nothing serious, but would
| prevent me from doing hard manual work every day. As it is I
| haven't lost a days work due to pandemic, or illness for years
| now as the work I do is so low impact and from home. I imagine
| this would be much more challenging into 50s and 60s whereas in
| tech you can work almost indefinitely (I have a friend about 75
| who is working).
|
| You also need to consider the training and certification time
| that might be required. Also being out on the road wouldn't work
| for me, I'm used to being close to home now.
| flave wrote:
| Coffee engineers (at the entry level end) basically install,
| service and repair commercial espresso machines. It's probably
| less manual than a plumber or electrician and more manual a
| desk job.
|
| You work for a roaster to start with and I have some background
| with repair coffee machines as a hobby. Once you're good at
| what you do, people tend to become independent but my goal
| would be to open a shop where we repair and sell machines.
|
| You're right that from any reasonable standpoint I'm absolutely
| living the dream. I'm debt free, have a good income in a
| country where incomes are a bit fucker and I do a pretty cushy
| work from home job. But, I hate it 90% of the time.
|
| There's been a lot of good advice here but the overwhelming
| thing all day at work is just how excited I am at the idea of
| not having to do this bs anymore.
|
| I like being on the road - it's a bit like going on an
| adventure.
| kornhole wrote:
| If only our jobs were not so specialized and all consuming we
| could have better balance of the physical, social, and technical
| skills we desire. I like to tell this story which immediately
| gets a rise out of people. One of the things the [name revealed
| at end] did that I liked was to require everybody in the country
| to do some manual labor. Scientists, bureaucrats, doctors and the
| like were all required to be outside for a few hours a day doing
| manual labor alongside others from various backgrounds. This not
| only made a physically healthy population but improved society.
| The government that did this was the Nazis. Of course much of
| what they did was horrible, but I think this great experiment was
| lost in history due to the branding.
| [deleted]
| 1letterunixname wrote:
| _This isn 't so bad, huh? Making bucks, getting exercise, working
| outside._
|
| _Fuckin ' A._
|
| _Fuckin ' A..._
|
| The problem is fundamental: monetizing business value. Is there a
| particular, defensible, specialized manual skill worth as much as
| the most niche knowledge work you can do? Perhaps some sort of
| nuclear-rated welder? A professional engineer who happens to be
| an expert witness and subject matter expert for the
| interpretation of civil or mechanical engineering building codes
| can command 50k GBP for writing an opinion report that takes 1-2
| hours of effort.
| geocrasher wrote:
| You don't need a career change. You need a hobby.
| flave wrote:
| My hobby is repairing coffee machines...
| geocrasher wrote:
| In that case, stop looking to your job for fulfillment.
| There's so much more to life than work. Fulfillment, joy,
| it's all there if you look hard enough, but if you rely on
| your job for it, then what happens when the job goes away?
| You lose the joy and fulfillment? I don't want anything
| having that much control over me personally.
|
| Now, if you have an active distaste for the work you do,
| that's another story. I used to say I wanted to leave the
| business I was in and go work at the local mini mart selling
| slurpees and hot dogs. I was only partly kidding. Turns out I
| just needed out of that _that employer_. I love the industry
| though. But my true fulfillment comes from elsewhere.
| flave wrote:
| Appreciate your feedback.
|
| For me, the tell-tale sign that I need to make a big change
| is because I've never liked any job I've ever had which
| involves being sat behind a desk. Although my employer is
| _challenging_, I've felt like that about five or so
| different employers and even working for myself.
|
| On your first comment about not looking for your job to
| fulfil your life. I agree and disagree. I think that's
| fundamentally right and you need more in your life than
| your job and, honestly, right now I get a lot of my
| identity from my job and money and all that. Which I'm not
| proud of.
|
| But the 'no' part is that I work hard and I always have
| done. 40 hours minimum and usually more like 50. And I work
| in the best part of the day when it's sunny and light. To
| squander all that time through my working life just seems
| horrendous. It's not like a couple of hours a day, it's the
| best hours in the best days in the best years of my life
| being spent switching pixels off and on in a grid using
| little buttons.
| geocrasher wrote:
| it's the best hours in the best days in the best years of
| my life being spent switching pixels off and on in a grid
| using little buttons.
|
| Oh, this thought has crossed my mind so, so many times.
| It's usually a sign that I need to get out more. I now
| live where it's beautiful and sunny all the time, and yet
| I still find myself holing up like I did when I lived in
| the Pacific NorthWet.
|
| At the end of the day, I'd say work on building your
| identity outside of work. Work a little bit less,
| schedule more time to be outdoors, and see after a few
| months if you still feel the way you do now. If so, then
| you know what you need to do. At that point, cut down
| your income to the level you'd be at otherwise, and see
| how it feels. If it's fine, then... do your thang.
| Zach_the_Lizard wrote:
| I haven't quit, and have no plans of quitting, but I scratch the
| manual labor itch by, well, manually laboring at home.
|
| I've dug hundreds of feet of trenches to move around sprinkler
| and water lines to account for a new patio and fence. Added walls
| to my home to add an extra bedroom and office. New trim, new
| solid core doors, etc.
|
| I've painted rooms, ran Ethernet to all the bedrooms, added some
| outlets, replaced all outlets with tamper resistant ones, and the
| list goes on and on.
|
| To top it off, I have a project car that I've been working on.
| They constantly require some small amount of maintenance and
| something can always be made better. You can be in
| troubleshooting mode, tracing electrical gremlins, or you can
| just be mindlessly sanding off rust from the frame.
|
| Once my kids are older, I hope to get them involved somewhat just
| to teach them some skills. I cherish the memory of my grandfather
| teaching me some of this stuff and hold on to some things he made
| for me.
|
| I structure things so that I can have two or so small projects
| running that I can pick up and set down without fuss, since life
| and kids often get in the way.
|
| I've definitely saved thousands on some of the work I've done
| kiliantics wrote:
| I've also done this kind of thing in my spare time. It's
| definitely rewarding in many ways: you get to enjoy the fruit
| of your labour in your lived environment, you know you did a
| more detailed job than someone you paid would have done, you
| make all the decisions about the work where a contractor may
| have done it differently, you save some money on the labour
| costs of the work.
|
| One thing I've learned through doing this though is that I
| would have a very hard time doing this to make a living. Unless
| you are somehow in a position to do custom bespoke works for
| high payers, where you keep a lot of control over the process
| and don't have to operate on tight margins, I just don't see
| how it could be any more rewarding than office work. On top of
| this it will take a physical toll on your body and pay less.
|
| Despite that, I do hope to make this transition myself but it
| will be a long time till I will be in a position to make it
| work. I think it can make sense for someone if they are able to
| make niche items, like by becoming a luthier say, and can
| afford to do it for poverty wages because they are basically
| semi-retired. I wish more people had the freedom to do this
| kind of work, and that society placed more value on well-
| crafted things over mass-produced rubbish.
| screwturner68 wrote:
| I come from a family of master plumbers and I was my uncles
| helper as soon as I was old enough to hold a 5 gallon bucket
| and bring back the right tool. Over the course of growing up I
| did all sorts of different trades, I banged nails, tore off
| roofs, I bent conduit and I've tiled thousands of square feet
| of flooring and walls and I hated almost every minute of it.
| Working in shitty conditions, getting screamed at because you
| don't move fast enough, low wages and permanent damage to your
| body is not something I'd sign up for long term
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| > I've definitely saved thousands on some of the work I've done
|
| Was that a necessary work tho?
| Zach_the_Lizard wrote:
| Some of it was. For example, the sprinkler system that came
| with the house was blasting my house and fence with water.
|
| Doing so causes fences to decay more quickly and can damage
| the foundation of the house.
|
| By digging up and moving the sprinklers, I prevented that
| from happening.
|
| I also swapped a bunch of it for subsurface drip irrigation,
| which conserves significant amounts of water. That not only
| saves me money, but is better for the environment.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| > Once my kids are older, I hope to get them involved somewhat
| just to teach them some skills. I cherish the memory of my
| grandfather teaching me some of this stuff and hold on to some
| things he made for me.
|
| They may or they may not. I do all the sorts of things you do
| and have tried to get any of my kids interested and none of
| them really are. So don't be too disappointed if that happens.
| Kids are not clones of yourself in every detail.
| Zach_the_Lizard wrote:
| My goal is not to turn my kids into mechanics, but teach them
| to troubleshoot and learn a few basic things. My hobbies are
| my own and they don't have to enjoy them.
|
| I don't want my daughter, for example, to give up and call me
| if she gets a flat tire. I want her to know how to put on the
| spare tire and do it if needed.
|
| Beyond that it's gravy.
| great_psy wrote:
| Just curious about the car maintenance, do you think it is
| something younger people will not get to experience as much?
|
| I am not super familiar with newer cars, but it seems there is
| a lot more software in there, and I am wondering if that makes
| it much harder or impossible to fix some of the newer cars.
| Zach_the_Lizard wrote:
| > Just curious about the car maintenance, do you think it is
| something younger people will not get to experience as much?
|
| Yes and no.
|
| Even with electric cars, stuff like brakes won't go away.
| Some even have drum brakes as I recall.
|
| But gone are the days of using a few screwdrivers, wrenches,
| and odds and ends to fix most problems. But most of those
| problems are solved by software.
|
| I'm not hoping to get my kids into this, just teach them some
| basic skills.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| No, mostly the software makes working on modern cars easier
| and more rewarding. Everything has built in diagnostics so
| it's a lot easier to pinpoint what is wrong and fix it. Old
| cars would often never quite run correctly and there was no
| straightforward path to figure out why except tediously
| swapping parts out.
| atentaten wrote:
| I have a different perspective. I'd rather work on cars
| with less software. Just spent months working on a car full
| of computers, had to use an old windows laptop to run a GM
| Tech II emulator and other bits of hacky tools to reprogram
| different modules after replacing one. Ultimately, I was
| able to get the car to start, but that victory was soon
| lost because the next day the new and old modules went
| offline after attempting to put the car in gear, and of
| course the car won't start any longer. Could be faulty
| wiring or faulty modules... This is why I like to work on
| simpler cars where every function does not need a computer
| module.
| charlie0 wrote:
| I don't think software gets in the way of getting some
| experience working on cars. Cars still need their tires
| rotated, alternators swapped out for new ones, new brake
| pads, oil changes, refilling liquids and occasionally
| troubleshooting issues with OBD II. These are are all fairly
| basic things that don't require an armoir full of tools and
| can be done on a weekend.
| johnhess wrote:
| I haven't switched. I still mostly do software engineering. But I
| did burn out on my job in a toxic workplace and quit with nothing
| quite so formal as a plan.
|
| Before picking up more software work ~6mo later, I got certified
| as an EMT and started volunteering on the ambulance at a local
| service. It has been a really great choice. I work with excellent
| people in a job very different from my remote software one. I
| wouldn't call it manual labor by any stretch, but it has a very
| different physicality and interpersonal nature than engineering
| that makes it very rewarding for me.
|
| There's no reason on paper to spend whole days volunteering doing
| something you're not the best at. Doesn't matter.
| selflesssieve wrote:
| It seems like you're trying to get the tail to wag the dog. Ask
| yourself what your greatest good is, and order your life towards
| that.
| not_your_vase wrote:
| This classic thread is relevant:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24541964
| KurtMueller wrote:
| If you're getting paid for a job, it's a professional job.
| jvanillaaaa wrote:
| "someday" is a disease that will take your dreams to the grave -
| Tim Farris / Rolf Potts
| poo-yie wrote:
| Very true! A few years ago my brother-in-law died unexpectedly
| of a heart attack at age 53. This event was a real eye opener
| for me. It made me realize that my 'one of these days I'd like
| to...' plans have an expiration date and will never happen
| unless I make them happen. Since then, I've made progress on
| some of those plans.
| ramesh31 wrote:
| >"someday" is a disease that will take your dreams to the grave
| - Tim Farris / Rolf Potts
|
| "Buy my eBook"
|
| - Tim Ferris
| nlnn wrote:
| It probably doesn't apply here (and might well be country/region
| specific), but one thing I've heard from friends who've done
| similar has been some resentment/hostility related to jobs that
| are only people with previous money can afford to take.
|
| I've got several friends that made a lot of money in tech/law
| before switching to more fullfilling jobs (things like furniture
| maker, barista, something music-related, plumber, museum curator,
| librarian).
|
| One argument they've heard is that by taking jobs that aren't
| economically feasible to do without money, they're encouraging
| low pay for others in that field who don't have any other choice.
| One or two volunteer for free, and have heard complaints that
| volunteers have destroyed careers in certain sectors.
| elif wrote:
| I've been a sw engineer for 12 years, from intern to junior to
| engineer to senior. About 4 years ago it had taken so large of a
| toll on my mental health I quit with no plans other than hiking
| some bucket list thru hikes with my wife.
|
| After the time off, really looking at what matters to me, I find
| myself looking to careers that will provide me with personal
| enrichment rather than another one that is "easy," high paying,
| and providing "skill development".
|
| Right now I'm looking at starting very low paying trail angel
| services that would let me meet a lot of Appalachian trail thru
| hikers. And taking a job as a flight attendant so that I can
| travel the world for free. Both would give me complete control
| over my schedule so I wouldn't find myself trapped in the same
| cage that destroyed my mental health before.
| roland35 wrote:
| Be careful with the flight attendant career - good routes are
| seniority based, you are only on the clock during flights, and
| the pay is not great. I think it's one of those things that
| sounds more glamorous than it is (at least for a while)
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