[HN Gopher] Ableton Push 3
___________________________________________________________________
Ableton Push 3
Author : navidhg
Score : 291 points
Date : 2023-05-23 08:16 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ableton.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ableton.com)
| joshpauline wrote:
| had to jump on a buy it, been waiting for the push 3 for a few
| years now
| daydream wrote:
| Interesting that standalone is powered by Intel and not ARM
| (Intel 11th Gen Core(tm) i3-1115G4 processor with 8GB of RAM).
|
| I wonder why? They already support Live on Apple Silicon.
|
| CDM [1] reports that standalone is running Linux on that intel
| core, so they have Live running on Linux Intel. Maybe it was too
| much work to get running on Linux ARM? Or maybe performance just
| wasn't good enough?
|
| 1 - https://cdm.link/2023/05/new-ableton-push/
| bsaul wrote:
| am i the only one that wondered why the videos on top didn't make
| any sound ?
| bandrami wrote:
| It's Ableton; you have to buy the AdSound DLC Pack
| bbx wrote:
| The Push 1 looked like a prototype. The Push 2 is such a massive
| improvement. It's visually and functionally perfect. It was hard
| to find fault in its design and workflow (if you are a Live
| aficionado of course). If you don't like the uniqueness of Live,
| you can't like the Push. (But you can still like Live without
| liking the Push).
|
| Obviously, a lot (if not all) of the Push UX is only possible and
| satisfying because of how closely it integrates with Live.
|
| I didn't think a Push 3 would come so soon, because I couldn't
| see how the hardware or design could be improved. I was wrong. It
| seems the design has been slightly improved. But I never thought
| Ableton would release a stand-alone version of the Push. It's a
| hefty price tag, it doesn't support third party plugins, and its
| portability is limited. But I can't shake off the idea that
| Ableton just released the ultimate musical device for someone
| like me.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| Honestly for live stuff, you don't want plugins generating in
| real-time anyway. You want tight recordings / loops, samples at
| most, or a couple of external synths. There are so dang many
| compact "desktop" synths that are massively powerful these days
| that it's hard to recommend any above the others, but I do
| really love the PreenFM 2 and 3, and the developer is amazing.
| It's basically the pinnacle of open source FM synthesis if
| you're ever interested in that.
| woofwoofwoof wrote:
| Wow, I guess the zeitgeist now is to make upgradeable/repairable
| devices. That's very cool, I like it.
| hammyhavoc wrote:
| Any information about replacing the battery?
| woofwoofwoof wrote:
| It seems it runs on DC power only.
| hammyhavoc wrote:
| It has a 2h-2.5h Li-ion battery.
| e79 wrote:
| I think my ideal setup is still the Push 2. You've got your mouse
| and keyboard for more tedious workflows and VST usage, and then
| the Push as an expressive platform to jam with and explore ideas
| on. Best of both worlds.
|
| It seems like the Push standalone was designed for performers in
| mind? Would be pretty sweet to not have to bring a laptop up on
| stage with you, I'd imagine, especially if your setup is modular
| and otherwise DAW-less.
| rvense wrote:
| TBH this looks like the MPC Live (except done with by people
| with a bit of taste.)
|
| Sketch out things when you're out and about, some simple
| recordings etc., then bring it back to the studio and just plug
| it in and have everything there. It's a good plan, and it looks
| like a great execution, too.
| edude03 wrote:
| The Mpc live is a full DAW in a box (with speakers too!)
| though. At first glance this seems more like a portable drum
| loop machine.
| munificent wrote:
| This is literally Ableton Live, an actual DAW, in a box.
| IAmGraydon wrote:
| I think the real power of the stand-alone is being able to take
| it to inspiring places to write music or even just laying on
| the sofa and then you can plug in and transfer to the computer
| later for mixing and in-depth editing.
| franky47 wrote:
| From the Ondes Martenot [1] to the Haken Continuum fingerboard
| [2], this type of wiggling finger motion for vibrato is so
| intuitive, I wish more discrete controllers proposed it as a per-
| note pitch bend (which MPE makes possible, but can also be
| achieved with RPN/NRPNs in MIDI 1.x).
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlzPHeN1VLQ
|
| [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mrmp2EaVChI
| psd1 wrote:
| Best Hendrix impersonation I've ever heard:
| https://youtu.be/jh-hzbG5FzI
| ganoushoreilly wrote:
| Pretty cool!
| craigmccaskill wrote:
| Marco's version of purple rain [1] remains one of the most
| impressive pieces of live performance I've ever seen.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fQbtp2BgY4
| franky47 wrote:
| Setting the musician's prowess aside, that guitar synth
| engine is remarkable at rendering the subtle tone nuances
| of the continuous controls given by the Seaboard.
| [deleted]
| slackpad wrote:
| Did anybody find any references to the materials on the outside
| of the Push 3?
|
| I loved the Push 2 but if it got any amount of sunlight on it the
| rubber outer shell would sweat and become this sticky rubber
| mess. I don't have a fully protected area to keep the device in
| and it became so gross it was unpleasant to use and I stopped
| using it. A lot of people complained but they didn't deal with it
| very well, and directed you to hope for the best by scrubbing it
| with orange oil products. I hope they sorted this out because
| otherwise Push 2 was amazing and this looks like a very nice set
| of improvements.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| its fixed
| singularity2001 wrote:
| For someone without experience with synth instruments: what can
| this thing do what an iPad could not also do?
| biftek wrote:
| It has physical controls to let you develop muscle memory
| jabroni_salad wrote:
| Didn't pressure sensitive touch get removed from iDevices?
| Velocity sensing is a big deal with percussion pads.
| canadianwriter wrote:
| It has buttons you can push! Seriously, for an instrument, the
| feel of the buttons is kind of a big deal.
|
| This is meant for live "playing" as well as recording, so the
| feel of the buttons rather than a touch screen is important.
|
| You should check out videos of people using the original push
| as a live instrument - it can take serious talent.
| luplex wrote:
| It's a highly optimized and specialized user interface for
| music production and live performance. It's tactile, the pads
| are pressure sensitive, and it comes with a high-quality audio
| interface for other studio gear. It's probably sturdier than an
| iPad, and it's user repairable.
| brookst wrote:
| Nothing except user experience.
|
| The Push lets you turn physical knobs to adjust sound
| parameters, and the pressure sensitive pads let you play drums
| / piano / whatever softly to loudly. The external sound
| interface is very low latency so playing a guitar along with
| sequenced music feels natural and records in time. And of
| course it's more durable for live performances.
|
| But technically, with the right software, you could produce the
| same music on an iPad. There are step sequencers and Ableton
| controllers in the App Store. They're just much less satisfying
| / expressive / empowering to use.
| tamedo wrote:
| No arrangement view? deal breaker. Hopefully they add in the
| future.
| sirianth wrote:
| 100% agree. Also I think no follow conditions programming
| editing yet. Both I guess could be added.
| kettunen wrote:
| Cool stuff! I used Push 2 for a long time and I really enjoyed
| the workflow with it. I decided to sell it since most of my music
| work shifted to using Logic so didn't have much use for it
| anymore. Until quite recently, I had this scratching itch to
| rebuy Push 2 and start playing around with it, just to notice
| that it's sold out everywhere. I had a feeling that they will
| release Push 3 quite soon, so great to see it out finally. Maybe
| I need to start using Ableton again!
| eweise wrote:
| Personally I'd rather have a linnstrument
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDTikW1BFt8 instead of something
| mixes a DAW with a controller. Logic running on an Ipad would be
| more powerful.
| AndyPa32 wrote:
| Looks like they nailed it.
|
| 1. Users have been asking for Push 3 for years
|
| 2. MPE support looks great
|
| 3. Now it's here - and standalone
|
| 4. It's modular - you can start out with the non-standalone
| version and upgrade later
| rcarr wrote:
| Very steep prices. Can buy a decent MacBook Air for the cost of
| the standalone version. Would have been nice to see them keep the
| old model around with a reduced price for people less well off.
| anamexis wrote:
| I believe a lot of the Push 2 stock will be given away to
| education. https://www.ableton.com/en/classroom/push/
| j7ake wrote:
| At ~2000 dollars, one can buy mid-high end digital piano made
| of wood with realistic key action.
|
| https://dcpianos.com/products/kawai-ca48-the-ultimate-piano-...
|
| You can add beats, different sound libraries, and maybe you can
| add a microphone looper for ~300 dollars extra.
| hammyhavoc wrote:
| I sit in front of an Oberheim MC 3000, and love the piano-
| like playing experience and use every key.
|
| However, it is disingenuous to compare a groovebox to a
| digital piano. It's also bold to assume that someone wants or
| needs 88 keys or even wants piano-like action. It's something
| different. That's valid. If it isn't for you or me, that's
| also valid.
| capableweb wrote:
| The secondary market for instruments like these are flush with
| hardware, which is true for the Push too. You can basically
| find it almost unused with huge rebates if you go second-hand.
| mtts wrote:
| The price is quite reasonable. You shouldn't compare it to a
| MacBook Air but to other stand alone boxes with built in
| controllers like the Akai MPC X which is EUR2400, the Akai
| Force, which is quite Ableton-like and which costs EUR1200.
|
| It also comes with an MPE controller and those are not cheap.
| intrasight wrote:
| Don't you mean "it is an MPE controller"?
| ChildOfChaos wrote:
| Add this to the list of cool stuff (with making music) one day I
| want to get into.
| haunter wrote:
| Video about the user replaceable parts
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZT0PyM1gC8
| maxbaines wrote:
| Great to see an upgrade kit. Interestingly "Each Upgrade Kit
| contains a processor, hard drive, battery, heatsink and all the
| tools you need for assembly."
| mtalantikite wrote:
| Weird, I just this morning was looking at my Push 2 and thought
| "I wonder when they'll make a standalone Push 3".
|
| The price is a lot higher than I was expecting. I'd definitely
| love to not be tied to the computer, but in reality I'm in most
| instances going to be next to a laptop. Hard to say if it's worth
| it.
|
| Edit: I do love that if you buy the cheaper model, you can still
| upgrade it to add a hard drive and processor later. That's a
| great feature.
| neom wrote:
| Related, saw this...synth(?) thinger yesterday and I really
| really want one:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivuy9QYLFVY
|
| So cool! Not sure where they are in producing it, but it's neat!
| capableweb wrote:
| That's a sequencer. It doesn't produce sound by itself, but
| produces notes to be used for other devices to produce sound.
|
| You might be better off getting a Circuit Tracks or something
| (any groovebox) before diving deeper into the hobby, it will be
| more gratifying than buying individual hardware like that.
| neom wrote:
| They said version 2 will be a midi generator, version 1 a
| midi controller. I have an OP-1 and OP-Z, looking to go in a
| different direction.
| capableweb wrote:
| That doesn't make much sense. A MIDI controller generates
| MIDI notes, like when you press a key there is two MIDI
| notes being sent, one "on" and one "off". When you use
| something like an arpeggiator, the MIDI controller would
| generate one MIDI note each 1/8 for as long as you hold the
| key.
|
| Or what would be the functional difference between a MIDI
| generator and controller?
| [deleted]
| vemv wrote:
| I own a Push 1 and 2, although at hobbyist level.
|
| The standalone Push 3 seems a great step forward. macOS has
| increasingly become user-hostile when it comes to audio (and
| other pro) users.
|
| For instance I have an expensive sound card that became useless
| with after a minor OS upgrade. I never got to troubleshoot it or
| find an official solution.
|
| That was incredibly discouraging - enough to move on to other
| hobbies. And I'm a programmer - don't want to imagine the pains
| that musicians have to go through.
| woudsma wrote:
| I'm not updating my music Macbook Pro anymore, I'm still on
| MacOS Catalina. VST's break, (older) audio drivers stop
| working, etc. I spent too much time getting everything to work
| as it currently is.
| jtode wrote:
| Musician here, most of us (the ones that aren't also
| programmers) just have to pay up the arse every time for every
| thing.
|
| I've been teaching myself keys the last few years and had been
| planning to one day get myself a big $6k stage keyboard, when I
| felt that I had sufficiently developed to warrant it.
|
| I have since tried out Zynthian, and my conclusion was that
| with a pianoteq license and a good controller, I can have way
| more functionality and sounds and every thing for a small
| fraction of the price of that Nord.
|
| Your comment is fascinating, because domination of music is one
| of the pillars of Mac's success. If they're not just neglecting
| that, but actively screwing with people... They've lost the
| plot. Like so many giant piles of capital masquerading as a
| company.
| joshspankit wrote:
| > domination of music is one of the pillars of Mac's success.
| If they're not just neglecting that, but actively screwing
| with people... They've lost the plot.
|
| They've lost many plots.
|
| Musicians, developers, and even photographers.
|
| Apple's playbook seems to have changed to:
|
| - Hook a demographic with functionality that's anywhere from
| just good enough to excellent
|
| - Railroad them in to using as many first-part services as
| possible (especially if that means getting them to buy more
| Apple devices)
|
| - Slowly lock them down so it's harder and harder to move to
| competitors (aka boil the frog)
|
| - Move staff from those first party products as the users are
| trapped and it's no longer necessary for the quality to be
| excellent
| kibwen wrote:
| Google famously discontinued Google Reader despite it
| having tens of millions of users because it represented a
| minuscule contribution to their bottom line.
|
| Apple isn't a software company, it's a phone company.
| Everything that isn't an iPhone represents a minuscule
| contribution to their bottom line. Apple doesn't give a
| shit about pro users, even if it's profitable, because
| they're too big to care.
| runjake wrote:
| I was questioning your "Apple's a phone company" claim,
| figuring services long ago surpassed iPhone sales, but in
| fact, services sits at about 30% of their revenue and the
| iPhone sits at about 55%, which is roughly 5% growth from
| last year!
| utopcell wrote:
| Services may be at 30% but their profit margin for them
| is >70%, more than double of what they have for hardware.
| jtode wrote:
| I think they were conceding the point :>
| jtode wrote:
| So, Chokepoint Capitalism.
| moojd wrote:
| Nords are for gigging artists that want every feature
| accessable via physical controls on the device with minimal
| setup. If you are willing to bring your laptop on stage there
| are probably better cheaper options. That being said used
| Electro's can be affordable and they are really fun devices
| to own. There is also a nice small community of people
| hacking on them. My current hobby project is reverse
| engineering the electro 5
| mtalantikite wrote:
| I had considered going the route of a nice midi controller
| and software, but ultimately when I wake up in the morning
| and sit down to practice I don't want to be on the computer
| with the seemingly infinite potential for distraction. I
| bought a Nord Grand a couple years ago and I'm really glad
| that I did. The action feels great and the sounds are good
| enough (although I really would love a new grand piano
| sample). My teacher even has commented that he's surprised
| by the dynamics in my touch on his grand at his studio,
| which in his experience often can get lost when practicing
| on a digital keyboard.
|
| Anyway, I'd recommend it for anyone that's at that point of
| taking their practice seriously, but might not have the
| space/neighbors for an acoustic piano.
| moojd wrote:
| Yep, I love my nord for the same reasons as you (and also
| the excellent b3+leslie emulation on the electro/stage).
| I stare at a screen all day so when it comes to practice
| or playing gigs I prefer it over midi + laptop/ipad. That
| being said, I don't want to discourage anyone from going
| the laptop route. You gain a ton of flexibility and if
| you already own the laptop it's way cheaper to get
| started. It's all just preference at the end of the day.
| jmcphers wrote:
| Seconded. I love my Nord Grand. I still use a laptop
| sometimes but not having to get the laptop
| warm/unlocked/software started in order to play is
| amazing. I can just sit down, flip a switch, and
| practice.
|
| > I really would love a new grand piano sample
|
| If you haven't already seen the Nord Piano Library, it's
| amazing:
|
| https://www.nordkeyboards.com/sound-libraries/nord-piano-
| lib...
| klodolph wrote:
| The problem is that pure MIDI controllers are often not
| very good. When you pay $2,000 for a synthesizer, it can
| have a very good keyboard.
| jmcphers wrote:
| This used to be true, but I don't think it is any more.
| The Kawai VPC1, for example, contains an incredibly nice
| action, costs $2,500, and is a pure MIDI controller.
|
| https://kawaius.com/product/vpc1/
| klodolph wrote:
| Yeah, there are a couple exceptions. Roland used to make
| a popular master keyboard. My main question is why
| someone would want a $2500 controller, when at that price
| you could get something like a CP88.
| coldtea wrote:
| If you pay $1000+ for a MIDI controller it can have a
| very good keyboard as well.
| klodolph wrote:
| It's harder to source MIDI controllers in that price
| range, compared to synths.
| gcr wrote:
| offtopic, but what keyboard controller do you recommend?
|
| I have a cheap MIDI keyboard but the keyfeel is all wrong
| compared to the upright pianos I used to play as a kid. I'd
| like to get back into piano, and I know I struggled with
| phrasing/dynamics, and I worry that unweighted keys will
| teach me bad habits even though they're technically velocity
| sensitive...
| sfitz wrote:
| Most MIDI keyboards aren't really made for piano
| performance or even really for piano practice. If you want
| a MIDI controller for this reason, I'd recommend going to a
| music store near you (if applicable) and playing a few and
| feeling the keys and go with the one that feels nicest for
| your budget.
| lsaferite wrote:
| I bought my wife a Yamaha Arius YDP-184 and she loves it.
| It's not 100% like the baby grand she does lessons on,
| but it's close enough for most purposes. It has a MIDI
| interface, but it's not really easily portable.
| mh- wrote:
| I'm just a hobbyist, but I've been playing on and off
| since I was a kid. I have this exact model.
|
| I definitely recommend it, _but_ I 'd suggest trying it
| out in-person if possible. The key weights seem very
| heavy to me.. but it's entirely possible that this is how
| higher-end pianos feel and I lack the
| experience/familiarity.
| illwrks wrote:
| Seconded. My daughter plays piano, and we have one of
| these. The YDP line of pianos from Yamaha are very good
| value, obviously not the same as a grand piano but very
| very good for a digital piano, and has midi out.
| mh- wrote:
| It has midi out _and_ presents itself as a USB audio
| interface. So if you go into the menu on the YDP itself
| and turn off the local sound, you can connect it to your
| laptop via USB and play virtual instruments on it, with
| the audio going right back out to the YDP 's speakers.
|
| I thought that was super cool when I realized that.
| klodolph wrote:
| Agreed--I think the economics just don't justify
| production of good MIDI controllers. Outside of one or
| two models, they're mostly bad. You have to try keyboards
| out in the store to find one you like. They won't be a
| good replica of a piano, but they may be something you
| like.
| jmcphers wrote:
| The best keyboard controllers are made by companies that
| also make pianos. What I'd recommend is searching for the
| term "stage piano" -- these are compact instruments that
| are designed to be a piano first but can also be used as a
| MIDI controller. You'll get solid piano sounds and an
| upper-end keyboard action from these out of the box, but
| can also hook up MIDI to your laptop if you want to explore
| software-based synthesizers/VSTs.
| sbrother wrote:
| The Roland A-88 is the closest I've found. It feels great,
| but it's expensive.
| jtode wrote:
| At the moment I'm using a Launchkey 61 when not using my
| weighted digital piano.
|
| I do also own a Roland VR-09, which by the way is
| incredibly hackable courtest of Ctrlr and a couple of
| custom panels. What is pretty cool about the Roland is, in
| organ mode the keys respond to hair trigger touch like a
| real B3, so you can do those really fast funky effects. I
| will probably always return to it for organ, at least until
| I can afford a real Hammond.
|
| The arguments people are making about having a piece of
| hardware that you just turn on is certainly valid, but they
| are also comparing to a stock laptop running a general
| purpose OS, and also, clearly can afford to spend the
| money. For those of us who are so well off, Zynthian is a
| project that greatly streamlines things, and encompasses
| basically everything out there in the Linux audio
| ecosystem, including Pianoteq, on a Raspberry Pi. They're
| also just about to release a new version. I've been messing
| around with them for about a year now and they're the real
| deal.
| precompute wrote:
| The Korg D1 is expensive but has a RH3 keybed, which you
| might like if you like keys to be on the heavier side.
| timrichard wrote:
| I have a feeling of unease too.
|
| OSX occasionally warns me about third party kernel
| extensions, and that's not an encouraging direction of
| travel.
|
| I bought my audio interface precisely because RME have a
| reputation for writing reliable and performant drivers.
| jmcphers wrote:
| FWIW, I recently replaced "Pianoteq license and a good
| controller" with a Nord. I've found that the friction
| involved in getting the laptop warm and Pianoteq
| started/running, while relatively low, is still enough that I
| didn't often just sit down and play. The Nord is a simple
| appliance and is always there inviting me to practice.
|
| I still have the laptop and Pianoteq and use them with the
| Nord as a controller sometimes, when I want to work with
| digital music. But most of the time, the laptop stays shut,
| and I've found I am able to more deeply engage with the music
| that way.
| jtode wrote:
| If I had the money... Well I'd probably get a Hammond
| actually, but I would take it if I could afford it. But I'm
| a lot of house repairs and more important devices away from
| that point lol
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| > I have since tried out Zynthian, and my conclusion was that
| with a pianoteq license and a good controller, I can have way
| more functionality and sounds and every thing for a small
| fraction of the price of that Nord.
|
| Yes, but also buy yourself a big old 90s ROMpler workstation
| for a couple of hundred quid, and keep it around for when you
| need something, I don't know, just *different*. Or if you
| need to do an impromptu gig and don't want to cart your
| super-expensive controller and super-delicate laptop to a
| pub.
|
| Think of it as the musical equivalent of your gardening
| boots.
| Bad_CRC wrote:
| My Pod Studio UX 2 interface works on a M1 Ventura but most
| of the Line 6 software that I used (Pod Farm with multiple
| sound packs) doesn't works any more. I've to but Pod Farm
| 2.5. The software for loading patches to my Pod XT Live
| doesn't work either.
|
| It's an old Software that runs on... Windows 10...
| efxhoy wrote:
| RME?
| avtar wrote:
| https://www.rme-audio.de/
| vemv wrote:
| Yes, a RME Fireface UC.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _macOS has increasingly become user-hostile when it comes to
| audio_
|
| Like?
| pier25 wrote:
| What audio interface were you using?
| basisword wrote:
| >> And I'm a programmer - don't want to imagine the pains that
| musicians have to go through.
|
| Anyone doing it professionally will check all of their
| plugins/hardware has support for the latest macOS version
| before updating.
| wodenokoto wrote:
| I can promise you there are many, many professional musicians
| who will be first in line to upgrade their Mac.
|
| I'm a professional programmer it's not like I test if my
| mouse or keyboard will work with a new windows update.
| jabroni_salad wrote:
| I follow the audio engineering subreddits and 'do not allow
| your computers to update' is an extremely common epithet,
| and updates wrecking a booked session is a very common
| complaint.
|
| We're talking about guys who will use a trackball simply
| because it makes sure their cursor will be where they left
| it. Their demands for stability are beyond even what I have
| seen doing sysadmin at a hospital.
| joshspankit wrote:
| Logically yes, but anyone who's been doing it for more than
| a couple years has been _burned_ by an update at least once
| and won't easily make that mistake again.
| charlesrocket wrote:
| The mistake here is not the apple update but lack of
| backups.
| azinman2 wrote:
| The mistake here is that assuming things will forever
| remain the same and thus you don't need to update your
| software, when security enhancements require it.
| schrijver wrote:
| Even if you properly backup everything and can downgrade
| after an update, you're still burned by an update if it
| breaks your software. Which is why most musicians will be
| at least a major OS version behind, giving vendors the
| time to update.
| jcpst wrote:
| Maybe amateurs...
|
| Professionals tend to keep a stable system running for as
| long as possible. The first studio I worked in had a B room
| that was running OS 9 at a point where OS X had been out
| for 7 years.
|
| My current setup at home is a 2010 MacMini on v10.13, using
| a firewire interface. I plan to keep it running as long as
| possible.
| spajus wrote:
| What do professionals do when the hardware fails? Do they
| have regular backups, then buy the same hardware on ebay
| and then restore the "golden" setup?
|
| I recently tried to reinstall an old MacBook 13" that had
| a hard drive replacement. I couldn't log in to perform
| the install, Apple servers were throwing me an error. The
| only choice I had is to put another OS on it.
| duped wrote:
| Pro Tools has been broken on virtually every major version
| release of MacOS as far as I can remember, I don't think
| pros are the ones eager to upgrade their OS. They do it
| begrudgingly as late as possible.
| basisword wrote:
| It's very well known plugins break with OS updates. The
| vendors usually send emails warning against updates.
| Someone making music at home for fun might update on day
| one, but no professional studio will.
| tumult wrote:
| None of the pro musicians I know leap to update their OS
| like that. Some of them even keep their music machines
| perpetually offline. These computers are tools for music
| which just happen to run some OS.
| browningstreet wrote:
| Sometimes... programmers are worse users than general users.
| edude03 wrote:
| I DJ for money though I wouldn't say professionally. I have a
| separate 2015 MacBook Pro with all my software installed and
| it's not connected to the internet except to transfer new
| songs and manual updates to it.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Yep. Truly a testament to how bad modern backwards
| compatibility has gotten.
| roblh wrote:
| Really? Which soundcard? I've always understood the core audio
| stuff to be very hassle free. That sounds like a huge problem
| and I'm really surprised the manufacturer didn't fix that
| immediately unless it's very legacy hardware.
| [deleted]
| klodolph wrote:
| It takes time to fix this stuff. It always has. I don't know
| why.
|
| Core audio is the API. You still need a driver for the audio
| interface. If it's USB class compliant, then you get a driver
| for free. Not all devices are class compliant (for good
| reasons). You would be limited to the feature set provided by
| the USB audio class spec.
| roblh wrote:
| That's true, but not working on Mac for a high end sound
| card is pretty catastrophic. I can't think of any reputable
| brand besides maybe Antelope that has ever been straight up
| broken like that for any significant length of time. There
| would be riots on the audio forums if UAD or Motu or anyone
| else had that happen. I'm not an apple apologist, I use a
| PC for music production, it's just surprising to me is all.
| I'm curious about what sound card it is so I can either
| avoid it or dig deeper into why.
|
| I also think some of the comments in this thread about
| audio people never upgrading are a little dated. Maybe 10
| years ago it was more common for someone to sit on an
| ancient version of Protools if they were a full time
| studio, but most of the market is hobbyists and semi
| professionals who have a single personal MacBook or PC that
| they use for everything, not just recording. Airgapping
| something like that isn't really an option.
| klodolph wrote:
| MOTU drivers didn't work for months when some recent
| macOS came out. I think it was Catalina.
|
| Audio people "never" upgrading is a bit extreme. But it
| is still extremely common to delay updates until you know
| that your gear works with the new OS. We're not
| necessarily talking about some ancient version of Pro
| Tools here, but maybe a couple plugins you use that are
| getting long in the tooth. Maybe you would like to
| upgrade them, but you'd need to pay.
| nr2x wrote:
| The biggest issue with Mac is they manage to break device
| drivers every 12 months like clockwork. On the other hand,
| Logic Pro is an absolute steal at the price they charge, and
| it's gotten some huge (and free) updates.
| sschueller wrote:
| Nice to see that this device unlike many others is up-gradable.
| Battery can be replaced and even the CPU can be replaced.
| poisonarena wrote:
| you could just get a groovebox
| [deleted]
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| I understand why it's expensive, but as a hobbyist who'd want
| this for some fun at home, I do wish there were a cheaper
| standalone device without some of the fancy things like MPE and a
| battery.
| crucialfelix wrote:
| Well the Push 2 has been around EUR400 used, and it's still
| good. Probably dropping in price now too.
| capableweb wrote:
| There is a lot of groove boxes on the market and seems they're
| getting more and more siblings, which is nice to see!
|
| As a entry-device, Circuit Tracks is nice, immediate and not
| hard to learn to get your feet wet. It's also way cheaper than
| Push 3 but obviously a bit more limited.
|
| Otherwise, there is a bunch of different devices at different
| price points, here is a one list sorted by "popularity":
| https://www.thomann.de/intl/groove_boxes.html
| sanitycheck wrote:
| I agree with you on the Circuit - I haven't owned one but I
| learned enough to teach someone else the basics (on an
| original, not the Tracks) and it's very well thought out.
|
| I had a (current model) Electribe and it was a bit
| frustrating, lots of features are technically there but too
| fiddly/time-consuming to use.
|
| The OP-Z is not in the Thomann list, but I find that to be
| excellent - and not expensive compared to the OP-1. A rare
| example of an experts-only UI, it needs to be learned
| properly in order to do anything really, but once you know
| how to do it it's nice.
|
| If Behringer ever releases their "HiroTribe" thing that might
| be a very compelling option on the budget end of the
| spectrum.
| jmpz wrote:
| There is also Note (https://www.ableton.com/en/note/), if you
| have an iOS device.
| prmoustache wrote:
| As a hobbyist you can hook up your existing laptop to one of
| the Novation launchpad models (price ranging from 110EUR to
| 350EUR) which come with an Ableton Live Lite license.
|
| If you want something standalone, well as said in a previous
| comment, the Novation Circuit or any of the other grooveboxes
| in the market can offer interesting workflows.
| tobias_irmer wrote:
| Sounds terrible in the video. If that is the best it can do... :(
| biorach wrote:
| it's a sequencer!
| capableweb wrote:
| Well, no. It's a groove-box, it can produce sounds on it's
| own. Think Ableton Light (real Lite, not actual Lite) in a
| box.
| biorach wrote:
| Oh right!
| humanizersequel wrote:
| A bit of a heavyhanded way to put it, but one of the strengths
| of Ableton in my experience has been how easily you could
| import third-party plugins to supplement the lackluster native
| tooling. If you can't bounce those plugins to the Push along
| with a project, that severely gimps the functionality.
| pier25 wrote:
| I owned a Push 2 and sold it after a year. Never got into it
| because the pads weren't very good. Soft touches sometimes
| triggered notes at max velocity which drove me nuts.
|
| The Push 3 has more sophisticated pads with MPE and I'm very
| skeptical Ableton could pull that off with good QA.
|
| The other thing that I find ridiculous is they sell you a
| barebones computer for $1,000 with an i3, 8GB of RAM, and 256GB
| SSD. A computer which you cannot use for anything else and you're
| dependent on Ableton to fix/replace.
|
| For that kind of money you could buy an M2 iPad Pro with more
| performance and a lot more battery time than 2.5 hours. An iPad
| can be bought and repaired on any country. If you're touring you
| can travel with a backup iPad or even buy one pretty much in any
| big city on Earth.
| rewgs wrote:
| This is...completely missing the point. It honestly blows my
| mind how often exemplars of the Dunning-Kruger effect make it
| to the top on HN. You know that feeling you get as a programmer
| watching, like, two people code on the same keyboard on CSI or
| whatever? That's the feeling anyone with expertise in a domain
| other than programming gets when reading comments on HN
| regarding said domain.
|
| The most fundamental appeal of the Push is that it is a very
| nicely-integrated hardware _controller,_ and -- this is the big
| thing -- has physical knobs, buttons, pads, etc, a massive
| selling point to loads and loads and loads of musicians.
|
| An iPad by definition lacks the latter, and will never approach
| the integration of the Push no matter how much work you put
| into whichever controller app you're using (TouchOSC, etc). And
| that's even before you consider the fact that the Push also
| doubles as an audio interface.
|
| Literally no one in the Push's audience is looking to
| replace/upgrade the Push's hardware. No one cares what CPU it
| has. I'm honestly surprised that Ableton published the specs,
| because it just doesn't matter. It's not a "computer" (even
| though, yes, technically it is indeed a computer). Depending on
| which model you buy, its raison d'etre is as an _accessory_ to
| a computer, more specifically a very specific application; or
| an appliance designed to run one app and one app only. You
| might as well be saying that you 'd rather buy an iPad over a
| Tesla because the iPad has a better CPU.
| pier25 wrote:
| Obviously I meant replacing the computer part with an iPad,
| not the controller.
|
| > _No one cares what CPU it has_
|
| Good luck running a dozen instances of Diva if you don't care
| about the CPU :)
| rewgs wrote:
| > Obviously I meant replacing the computer part with an
| iPad, not the controller.
|
| > Good luck running a dozen instances of Diva if you don't
| care about the CPU
|
| Good luck running...most plugins, u-he or otherwise, on an
| iPad.
|
| That said, the question of which plugins will/won't work
| running directly on the Push is an interesting question. It
| runs Linux, no? u-he is one of the few "big" plugin devs
| that supports Linux, but if I had to guess, the standalone
| Push 3 will run first-party Ableton plugins only.
| pier25 wrote:
| > _Good luck running...most plugins, u-he or otherwise,
| on an iPad._
|
| Yeah that's a good point. OTOH all the U-He stuff is
| already ARM native for macOS.
|
| But my point about the iPad was more about comparing the
| cost. If Ableton had chosen to sell the computer part at
| a more reasonable price (say $300) I would't have even
| mentioned it.
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| That's the nice thing about this, you don't need a dozen
| instances of diva for a live set. If you're traveling and
| using this, you can freeze the tracks. Otherwise if you're
| at home you can plug in to your real computer and run as
| many instances of Diva at Divine quality as you want.
|
| But also this likely won't support Diva, probably just
| Operator, Analog, etc.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _For that kind of money you could buy an M2 iPad Pro with
| more performance and a lot more battery time than 2.5 hours_
|
| This has a strong https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224
| vibe to it.
|
| The computing-part hardware specs don't matter at all, the same
| way you don't compare the cpu specs of a phone or a synth to a
| laptop or tablet. This is about the interface, pads, firmware,
| comprehensiveness and convenience as a Live controller and as a
| standalone performance sequencer/drum machine/instrument.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| They don't matter at all _to the market_ , but they do matter
| to the quality of the product.
|
| If I can trivially make a better version of the thing you are
| selling at 1/3rd the price, then something isn't right.
| pier25 wrote:
| > _The computing-part hardware specs don 't matter at all_
|
| Except when you're trying to run dozens of VST plugins which
| are extremely CPU hungry.
| coldtea wrote:
| I'm pretty sure the Push 3 has been calculated to be able
| to run the plugins it needs to run - and without
| interruptions or other apps taking over the OS.
| pier25 wrote:
| > _to be able to run the plugins it needs to run_
|
| What does that even mean?
|
| How many Diva instances can it run?
|
| Edit:
|
| And BTW, AKAI MPC users hit CPU limits all the time. And
| that's not even using heavy VSTs like Diva but the ARM
| optimized plugins included.
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| It can run zero diva instances. No third party plugins.
| visarga wrote:
| you remember individual comments from 15 years ago?
| coldtea wrote:
| No, it's a famous comment that has become sort of a
| HN/hackerspace meme.
| nemo1618 wrote:
| It's a rather notorious HN comment, pretty much our
| equivalent of "No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame."
| coldtea wrote:
| Wow, I had forgotten about that! Could just as well
| replace it here :)
| dingnuts wrote:
| That one in particular is somewhat famous and gets trotted
| out as an example of a bad, wrong take, highly upvoted and
| missing the point of the product because the audience here
| is so technical they can barely perceive normal users'
| problems
|
| It's sort of ironic now, though, because Dropbox has not
| been doing very well the last few years, because their
| product wasn't novel enough to compete with the better-
| integrated solutions from Microsoft, Apple, and Google that
| Dropbox inspired
| coldtea wrote:
| > _It 's sort of ironic now, though, because Dropbox has
| not been doing very well the last few years_
|
| Yes, but not for the reasons that famous comment thought
| it wouldn't (people ...trivially rolling their own with
| Linux+FTP+SVN or whatever). If anything, for the opposite
| reasons: because even more turnkey/integrated solutions
| than Dropbox became available as you say. Which makes
| that comment appear even more off now!
|
| (Of course the point of that comment was already
| obliterated when Dropbox turned on to become a multi-
| billion worth company, even if it's "not doing very well"
| 15+ years after the comment was made. We could only wish
| we have that kind of "failure"!).
| rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote:
| Well, the original comment made 3 distinct arguments
| which can basically be summed up as:
|
| 1) Its feature-set is easily duplicated (from a technical
| perspective)
|
| 2) It doesn't solve one particular use-case (that it
| wasn't designed to solve)
|
| 3) It's hard to imagine it catching on, let alone making
| money
|
| Point #1 was widely mocked after Dropbox caught on, but
| turned out to be kind of correct - it just wasn't end-
| users that mimicked its feature-set, it was other
| companies.
|
| Point #2 is irrelevant.
|
| Point #3 was hilariously wrong. It went viral as hell,
| and the founders could've rode off into the sunset with a
| boatload of cash if they sold the company to Apple when
| they were approached. In the alternate universe where
| that happened, Apple devices just have a Dropbox feature
| instead of iCloud, a la Siri and Shazam.
| chriswait wrote:
| This comment is unusually well known. If you google the url
| wrapped in quotes, you'll see it referred to as "the
| famous/infamous dropbox comment".
|
| It's become something of a symbol for how hackernews
| commenters sometimes confidently miss the appeal of
| products/services. It's relevant here because the Push 3
| doesn't compete with iPads on processing power.
| uneekname wrote:
| The linked comment is something of an in-joke on Hacker
| News. BrandonM famously provided some quick, critical
| feedback on a Dropbox announcement. Dropbox of course went
| on to see a lot of success.
|
| Edit: it looks like a few other folks responded with a
| similar comment as I did. Sorry to spam you.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| The part that gets me is that it's x86, and not even very
| recent x86. This CPU model was released for retail in Q3'20.
| It's 10nm. I would have much preferred to see something like
| a 4nm Zen4 Ryzen or ideally, some combination of ASIC / ARM
| there.
|
| The other annoying thing is that it doesn't even include a
| Live standard license at this price, only Live Intro. That's
| just being cheap on Ableton's part.
|
| The big benefit I see of this over something like a
| Linnstrument + iPad + iConnectivity AUDIO4c is portability
| and Live compatibility, but I'd personally wait and see how
| stable the software is before pulling the trigger. Relying on
| a brand new software stack on x86 to do the exact right
| things in perfect time for live music is a bet I wouldn't
| take. I hope it's amazing, and I'm sure lots of folks worked
| very hard on this, but the proof will be in the pudding.
| There's a reason that you don't see Pioneer and Denon decks /
| mixers or really any other live audio gear rocking x86.
| squarefoot wrote:
| > For that kind of money you could buy an M2 iPad Pro
|
| Swap real pads and knobs for a touch screen? No thanks, even if
| they would give it to me for free. Not judging Ableton stuff
| prices, and I'm also not into this kind of devices (aside my
| Korg Padkontrol) because as a prog rock wannabe musician I
| would probably have little use for them, but when using
| electronic instruments, nothing comes close to real things you
| can manipulate, read state, and get tactile feedback from.
| Touch screens can look indeed cool, but they're way behind real
| controls when it comes to input capabilities.
| pier25 wrote:
| I only meant the computer part, not the controller.
| colanderman wrote:
| As an electronic musician, I will gladly pay a premium for
| any device that reduces the number of boxes and wires I
| have to set up at every gig. (As well as reduce the number
| of things I have to turn on, which might decide not to turn
| on.)
| pier25 wrote:
| Is redundancy when touring something you value as well?
| colanderman wrote:
| I don't tour, only gig locally, so redundancy of anything
| > $15 isn't worth it. But when you have 20 minutes to set
| up, 10 minutes to tear down and no roadies, not having an
| additional device + stand + power + MIDI + audio cables
| to mess with / trip over / forget is worth spending money
| on.
|
| If I did tour, yes, I would want backup equipment where
| feasible.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Can an iPad run Live?
| pier25 wrote:
| Ableton could have made an app to run the Live engine
| controlled by the Push.
|
| After all, they are probably running some Linux distro in the
| Push 3 so they had to invest in that anyway.
| smoldesu wrote:
| I believe it. They could also update Live to support the
| Tesla Model X, since it has an x86 Linux computer inside
| too.
|
| It's a lot of work though. And the pay sucks, especially on
| iPad/iOS where Apple refuses to let you make a profit
| without letting them take a bite. On MacOS it's a
| sustainable practice, but unless Apple changes something
| architecturally I wouldn't anticipate Live coming to iOS
| anytime soon. At least any sooner than Linux support, which
| is apparently(?) finished internally.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _Ableton could have made an app to run the Live engine
| controlled by the Push._
|
| And it wouldn't have pads, dedicated dials, MIDI, inputs
| and outputs, MPE, and everything else. It would be just a
| big screen with a iPad-like touch UI. So nothing like this.
| sssilver wrote:
| iPad does MIDI. You can do Bluetooth MIDI and if you want
| cables you can buy a dongle.
| pier25 wrote:
| I never meant for the iPad to replace the controller.
| Just the computer part.
| nr2x wrote:
| As of today it can run Logic Pro. The feature parity is
| there, most people consider using one or the other a matter
| of personal preference.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Does Logic Pro support controller extensions? If they do,
| they could add "support" with an unofficial plugin like
| Bitwig or Reaper does. Something tells me the iPad+Push
| experience wouldn't really be a gamechanger though, at
| least right now.
| nr2x wrote:
| Agree, I think it will be limited. However, I could see a
| niche where it's a good way to play your tracks live.
| Maybe you'd have to bounce some tracks in advance if they
| aren't iOS compatible for whatever reason.
| smoldesu wrote:
| I want to interpret this charitably, but I've travelled
| with touring musicians before (even Mac-obsessed ones)
| and none of their setups are iPad-ible. You _might_ be
| able to get it to work with a 1i1o DAC for clean audio
| output, but... genuinely nobody I know would bother with
| that. The requirements for live performance are brutal,
| even this standalone Push would be borderline suicide to
| rely on for a show.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _The feature parity is there, most people consider using
| one or the other a matter of personal preference._
|
| For musicians (professional or semi-pro) that use Logic on
| a laptop the feature parity is nowhere there. They depend
| on tens of AUs ("VSTs") that aren't available on the iPad
| for example, on top of lots of other stuff.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| FabFilter? Eventide? Pianoteq? Sugarbytes? It's starting
| to get decent out there.
| nr2x wrote:
| I haven't used it on iPad yet, I meant in regards to
| desktop.
|
| Biggest issue on iPad is lack of device drivers. Class
| Compliant audio only gets you so far.
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| Those VSTs won't run on a push 3 either.
|
| Of course ableton comes with a pretty good array of
| instruments and effects, so maybe this isn't that big a
| deal.
| nr2x wrote:
| Logic definitely has more plugins for way less money
| though.
| smoldesu wrote:
| FL's default plugins embarrass them both. I haven't used
| any Image-Line software in a dog's age, but I really miss
| the Fruity Loops compressor sometimes...
| sayrer wrote:
| Not right now, but they have an app called Note:
| https://www.ableton.com/en/note/
| earthnail wrote:
| I had the privilege of playing with the Push 3 a few weeks ago.
| If you owned a Push before, it's exactly what you think it is:
| basically the Push you always wanted. The fact that it's a
| standalone device now is brilliant. So is the built-in battery.
| Just super, super convenient.
|
| Controls are mostly self-explanatory. It has a fantastic tutorial
| when you first use it; overall a really polished experience. The
| MPI on the pads is very impressive, although I didn't spend
| enough time to see how useful I personally will find it. The
| build quality is awesome though. That large wheel on the top
| right has the slickest horizontal shift movement I've ever
| experienced on a knob.
|
| It's just slick. And yes, I just ordered one :D.
| emsy wrote:
| I'm sceptical. I own a Push 2 and the build quality is not
| terrible, but not awesome either. For example, every knob has a
| different resistance (how hard it is to turn) and sensitivity
| (how much you have to turn to change a parameter).
| viiralvx wrote:
| Stop man, I was trying to talk myself out of buying one and now
| you got me reconsidering it. I was trying to look out for my
| bank account.
| [deleted]
| r9295 wrote:
| Very hard to compete against Push as Ableton refuses to document
| their nightmare of an API. Even with Push source code decompiled,
| it's very difficult to make sense of it all.
| tibbon wrote:
| Is there a GitHub repo or similar effort where people have been
| working on this?
| r9295 wrote:
| Here's a repo with all "built-in" scripts for MIDI
| controllers decompiled.
| https://github.com/gluon/AbletonLive10.1_MIDIRemoteScripts/
|
| Have a look at pushbase and Push2 to look at Push source
| code.
|
| A starter kit I use when bootstrapping projects:
| https://github.com/R9295/ableton-live-control-surface-
| starte...
|
| To the best of my knowledge, this is as far as it goes. The
| blogs and articles I found are mostly out of date as Ableton
| has two versions of it's API and blogs mostly use v1. I
| wouldn't work on anything serious using v1 of the API
|
| Many controllers, including Push use v2 as it's allegedly
| simpler and more featured. I talked to a person working at
| Native Instruments and they also told me that their
| experience with the API was a nightmare.
| tibbon wrote:
| Thank you!
| davepeck wrote:
| I don't know about the Push 3, but my impression with the
| Push 2 was that python code bundled with Ableton Live
| rendered the actual screen contents seen on the Push.
|
| Does that seem correct to you? And if so, with some amount
| of reverse engineering work, shouldn't it be possible to
| send those same pixels over to an iPad app that pretends to
| be a Push?
|
| (It wouldn't be the same without real pads/touch controls,
| of course, but it might form the spine of a pretty good
| remote control app?)
| dubcanada wrote:
| This thread is super hackernews-y, people complaining about the
| performance of the PC that runs it compared to equally priced
| specs, some comments about source code and APIs, some comments
| about copying a open source product, a few about when AI can make
| music??
|
| Doesn't really seem to be much talk about the actual product, I
| must say I haven't owned either, but it looks super cool! The
| video was very well done showcasing the product and in/out with
| the guitar. I am still not a 100% sure who the target market is,
| hobby musicians? Professional DJs?
|
| I also wonder how easy it is to repeat an action, on a guitar a C
| major sounds like a C major on that same guitar. But you can't
| really remember did I move my finger 4 blocks and 3/4th of the
| other block of 5 blocks and a half?
| Jagerbizzle wrote:
| I bought one. I'm a hobbyist that's been using Ableton in a
| hobbyist manner since 2005 or so.
|
| As a software developer that works remotely, I have extremely
| limited desire to sit in front of my computer when work is
| over, and thus I end up using my music gear (which is
| unfortunately all crammed in my home office) much less than I'd
| like to. The appeal of a product like this is that I can take
| it into a different room and scratch the music production itch
| when I have it without feeling like I'm sitting at my work
| office all day.
| TremendousJudge wrote:
| >I end up using my music gear (which is unfortunately all
| crammed in my home office)
|
| Same here, I like to think of it as _my studio_ , a place
| where I do creative things. Same crammed room but it sounds a
| lot more romantic.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| Same, and these days my music desk is about half filled
| with half a dozen cases worth of modular synths, with a
| bread rack perpendicular to that housing some rack gear,
| too many effects pedals, and also too many standalone
| synths. I refuse to own synths that include their own full
| keyboards, talk about A LOT of space.
|
| Push 3 looks awesome and I'm glad to see them jumping onto
| the standalone game like NI have with Maschine along with
| many others. The Polyend Play and Tracker are lots of fun
| too.
| sayrer wrote:
| If you really want one of these things, and you use Ableton,
| get this one. I've used a Native Instruments Maschine and and
| Akai APC, and they just don't integrate that well with Ableton.
| But I've found I end up using a keyboard (Native Instruments
| Komplete) most of the time, even for drums, and that does
| integrate well.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| I picked up an MPC X for a great deal some years ago but I
| find that using it feels like using a limited DAW instead of
| inspiring much creativity. As an engineer as well, I always
| have the urge to try to preserve and record my noodling with
| the ability to recreate it and perhaps change out synths, so
| the MPC works decently well as a midi and CV hub / router
| that can record, but I can't say I've ever had tons of _fun_
| with it. That's probably more on me for never finishing the
| _MPC Bible_ ebooks.
|
| On the other hand, the Linnstrument is fantastic for bringing
| out creative ideas, and it plays well with the many MPE
| instruments available for iPads. Add in an iConnectivity
| interface that can simultaneously hook up with a laptop to
| record everything including the resulting audio and that's a
| powerful machine.
|
| My only regret in modern music creation is now that I can
| afford all the fun toys and now that we have nearly limitless
| potential to create any sound we could never imagine, I don't
| have nearly as much time as when I was a kid with an Alesis
| Ion and a pirated copy of Reason, so I end up creating a
| quarter of the music with 20x more gear :/
| ben174 wrote:
| I strongly feel that with the more year that I acquire, the
| less creative I become. I don't think it's an age thing
| that slowed me down, it's an over abundance of options. The
| few times I've been stuck with just my laptop and a copy of
| FL studio, the old creative me comes back.
| S_A_P wrote:
| Ableton live enthusiast here. I went all in on ableton after
| finding a push 2 second hand for cheap enough that I was
| willing to switch from Logic Pro. That was in 2018 and haven't
| looked back.
|
| From my perspective I see this as a mixed bag. I don't think i
| would want to use the push as a lap device while sitting on the
| couch. This looks to be about the same dimensions as the push
| 2. It's a squareish device that is about 14" or ~35cm wide and
| tall and about an inch and a half thick. I have and have had
| several other stand alone devices and they have to be much
| smaller than the push to tempt me away from my music pc desk.
|
| That said maybe as a desktop device for traveling etc I could
| see it.
|
| The other thing is that stand alone mode doesn't allow both
| "views" in Ableton. One is the linear arrangement view
| (unavailable in standalone mode) and one is the session view
| that is more for clip launching and attaching musical phrases
| to a button on the push grid. This is the view that standalone
| mode allows. Here is the link to the manual for that
| https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/session-view/
|
| In my opinion this mode is great for remixing and spinning up
| new ideas but I typically use live as I would a hardware
| sampler back in the day. Layer up ideas in arrangement view
| record everything and then go back and chop. To me, that is
| what I would rather do on a couch than remix clips.
|
| The hardware running live is adequate but I see why they may
| have limited the standalone functionality. I run live on an
| iMac Pro with 32gb ram and the 8core Xeon standard cpu. Live 11
| can really tax this machine especially with plugins in the mix.
| This is the other limitation that I understand but don't really
| like. No external plugins. I'm not sure if max will be
| available but suspect that the built in efx and max live
| edition will be there(I haven't watched all the videos yet)
|
| @dubcanada - the push is super cool and can be assigned
| scales/modes so that the buttons play scales up and down the
| octave range. Or if it's controlling a drum machine you get the
| familiar 16 pad interface x4 You can use it for step
| sequencing, playing chords with polyphonic expression (also in
| the push 2 but 3 looks to be improved) or just sit there and
| launch clips with 1 finger.
|
| As I read what I have written I think I'm going to stick with
| my push 2 but if you use live and want a push the 3 is the one
| I would buy today, but probably the upgradable one that acts
| like push 2. Then I would see if I could upgrade it myself and
| not with the ableton kit. They hint that it will be.
| grafzhl wrote:
| Been making electronic music for well over a decade, but always
| in the classic DAW arrangement view, at most using MIDI keyboards
| in terms of haptic input devices but relying on mouse and
| keyboard 95% of the time. I look at devices like Push or Maschine
| and my immediate thought is how tedious it seems to get anything
| done with them. I find the different approaches to manifesting
| musical ideas endlessly fascinating.
| jacquesm wrote:
| It's a 'barrier to entry' thing. To get the kind of skills that
| you need for good keyboard work is a lifetime of dedication,
| but once you've got it it is very quick and easy compared to
| something like the Ableton Push and other such devices.
|
| But that initial barrier is such that a beginner will be able
| to get much more mileage out of such a device. They might never
| even run into the limitations though it may limit the musical
| space that they can work in on some dimensions.
|
| In the end what matters is the result, not so much how it was
| reached.
| laratied wrote:
| I think it is also a huge issue that there is no methodology
| or virtuoso pieces to aim at in order to spend hours a day
| practicing on the Push.
|
| I grew up playing classical guitar and use to own a Ztar and
| this was the issue I had with it. My guitar chops transferred
| to it pretty nicely but it is still its own instrument. Own
| instrument with no music or practice material, no
| transcriptions of anything other than what you come up with
| yourself.
|
| How far would anyone get learning piano if they had to also
| come up with the music and practice material outside of
| drilling scales concurrently with learning the instrument
| itself? It would just be a nearly useless gimmicky
| instrument.
| adriand wrote:
| It's a fair point, but it's not a completely barren
| landscape. Melodics (https://melodics.com/) is one platform
| aimed at developing pad controller skills. For a much more
| rigorous and far less marketing-driven approach, I really
| recommend Quest for Groove (https://questforgroove.com/)
| which develops a lot more than just the physical dexterity
| required to drum on one of these things.
|
| As with anything, it does just take practice, and these
| instruments are so much easier to play than something like
| a guitar that just noodling around will also get you
| places.
| cageface wrote:
| I find grid based systems like Ableton great for getting short
| loops together but making the jump to a finished track is a lot
| harder.
|
| I have folders full of sketches I've built up in years of using
| it but very few things I'd call finished.
| siquick wrote:
| What I do to get over this - as soon as I have an 8+ bar loop
| i like i paste it into Arrangement view so it fills up a 5
| minute song, and then I start taking parts out. Gives me a
| basic "song" to start fleshing out.
| jcpst wrote:
| I do something similar to this too- sometimes making 2-4
| scenes and pasting some basic form in the arrangement.
|
| From there, I see it the way a sculptor might see a slab of
| rock, and start "carving out" the song.
| notjustanymike wrote:
| Do you have any thoughts on the ROLI?
| capableweb wrote:
| As someone in a similar position as yourself, but who been
| using hardware instead of software like DAWs, I find myself
| having a similar feeling to people who use keyboard/mouse to
| make music like that, seems really tedious compared to the
| workflow I have outside of the computer.
|
| But most importantly, I agree with your very last sentence,
| we're all different and what's optimal differs a lot from
| person to person.
| CuriouslyC wrote:
| Coming up with a riff/melody is much faster on an actual
| instrument (if you know how to use it). Turning that melody
| into a piece of good music is much faster in a DAW (if you
| know how to use it). If you lack skill in DAW usage or you're
| not making "finished" music, being instrument only is a legit
| approach, but learning and integrating a DAW would help you
| make better music.
| bandrami wrote:
| When I'm doing sample-based sequencing I find the Push 2 nearly
| perfect, but when I'm composing with midi I find it nearly
| intolerable. It kind of has a "What kind of EDM would you like
| to make today?" view of the world. But in the workflows it's
| designed for the Push series is brilliant.
| nkozyra wrote:
| I don't love working with them all the time (I use the original
| MPC Live for, well, live shows), but you can create whatever
| you want on a computer, in a DAW / whatever and then work on it
| separately when you want to be untethered from your computer.
| ablation wrote:
| A heavy Push 2 user here. Completely redefined my music
| creation workflow in Ableton. For me, it's a genuinely
| enjoyable way of turning ideas into music and has made the
| process incredibly more 'open' for me.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| Hm after formal education from producers and audio engineers
| for some EDM artists I respect, I think the Push 2 is the best
| re-build of music sequencing since the 1600s, comparing it
| directly to invention of sheet music and an improvement over
| that, with the addition of being able to input and execute the
| sounds in a very efficient way. But with its own learning
| curve.
|
| But one of the main things that saves time is how loud or soft
| each note is. Doing this in a DAW is far more tedious,
| neglected completely for just repetitive electronic music, or
| requires scripting to provide random-ish entropy to each note.
| Whereas with a Push its based on how hard you press.
|
| To add some objectivity to this, I would say its more about the
| learning curve, I couldn't expect someone to pick up a Push and
| get anywhere fast with it.
|
| But I think people familiar with a keyboard and mouse would
| benefit from a Push and accelerate their work.
| sschueller wrote:
| It's a trade off.
|
| I prefer to be DAWless when I am in "discovery mode" or just
| want to jam around like with a regular instrument. However when
| I am ready to assembly everything into a song I prefer to use a
| DAW.
| junon wrote:
| Agreed. I have a few similar boards here at home and rarely use
| them. They're a pain to set up, you spend more time configuring
| channels and whatnot, and half the time, the DAW has problems
| even seeing them given the abysmal state of MIDI driver
| management on e.g. Windows.
| sublinear wrote:
| I'm just an amateur of a similar amount of time, but I think it
| comes down to what inspires someone to create whether it's a
| physical interface or a graphical one. A little inspiration can
| overcome a lot of inefficiency. I prefer a tracker, but still
| want something like a DAW.
|
| Sunvox is pretty great for quickly roughing out an idea. I use
| my MIDI keyboard for building patterns. I'll record the notes
| for a pattern and then play it back in a loop to adjust the
| rest of the parameters. I use the other mapped controls live
| until I have what I want. I prefer having tons of physical
| controls ready to go for this part. I have a few project files
| I always start from and their corresponding templates are saved
| into the keyboard. Then I go into audacity and record my
| guitar, voice, or whatever else to a click and import them into
| the timeline. I think it's more important to have your workflow
| down than be distracted by new shiny toys.
| murkle wrote:
| Similar, but with chess pieces
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWaOYCLx2-Y
|
| (using https://openchessboard.com/ )
| capableweb wrote:
| Not sure how similar it is really. What you linked is a
| sequencer, which is just a small part of a device like Push.
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| I've been rocking the Push 1 since near the launch date, and
| didn't really feel compelled by the Push 2 to upgrade. The Push 1
| is so well designed and pleasure to play with, it feels as much
| like an instrument as my guitar, and less like a tech object that
| can become obsolete. But looks like I'll be buying a Push 3.
|
| "Send your Live sets to Push to work without a computer, then
| back again."
|
| That's a killer feature for me. I bought an Akai Force about a
| year ago so that I could play my solo electronic stuff at open
| mics without needing to bring a laptop and audio interface as
| well as my Push 1. But after spending a good amount of time with
| it, the Force just doesn't feel as well thought out for live gigs
| as the Push. A lot of functions I want to perform live require 2
| hands on the force (so I can't play notes with my right hand and
| manage the controller with my left), or require doing a long-
| press which effectively means a big latency on enabling the
| function. I need to watch some demo videos to make sure they
| haven't ditched any of the focus on live performance without
| pauses, but this looks like what I hoped the Force would be.
|
| Looks like they've already updated the online manual to include
| Push 3, will have to dig through that later, but some initial
| thoughts from the photos: I like some of the new button
| placement, undo is far away from anything, Double is no longer
| right next to Quantize. Solo and Mute being smaller might be an
| issue, it might not be. I wonder what the lock and square buttons
| do. New "Convert" button makes me think they've added a dedicated
| button for audio->MIDI conversion which seems great. Looks like
| there's a new metronome button? I like it, but I might just
| continue using a hidden track with a custom metronome loop.
|
| MPE and CV-capable output are also nice bonuses.
|
| The specs are a bit weak, but more than capable for a live set
| with several synthesizers and samplers. I bet you can swap out
| the SSD for a bigger one, I wonder if you could swap out the RAM
| or CPU as well, since you can purchase the non-standalone device
| and buy their upgrade kit to manually install the PC components.
| dottjt wrote:
| Personally, I don't really like the Push platform, having
| previously owned a Push 2.
|
| I can understand the value of it if you're performing live,
| however the hard reality is that it's a really inefficient way to
| create electronic music. The mouse and keyboard are simply a lot
| faster to use.
|
| With that said, maybe that's for you. But if you're trying to
| make advanced productions as quickly as possible, then I really
| see no value in the Push. You could of course use it as a MIDI
| controller, but it's a damn expensive one if your sole purpose is
| to use it as a MIDI controller.
| prmoustache wrote:
| This is a reason ableton live is called ... live. It is made to
| create music with the idea to play it live. The Push is the
| actual controller for the live performance.
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| Finger-drumming and using the sequencer in Push is much faster
| than clicking in MIDI notes for me.
| CamelRocketFish wrote:
| If you aren't great at piano then using a push in note scale
| mode is fantastic. Another benefit is when recording automation
| you can turn the knobs to add a human element over something
| like point and clicking points. It's an excellent tool for
| creating music, not just for live.
| capableweb wrote:
| > The mouse and keyboard are simply a lot faster to use.
|
| It's really up to personal preference and what you are most
| trained with. I'm sure I could make a full song faster than at
| least 50% of Ableton users on a Analog Rytm and/or the
| Octatrack, as I could probably do that workflow in my sleep.
| But I'm also use that 99% of Ableton users could use Ableton
| faster than me to create full songs, simply because I'm much
| more used to using hardware than software.
|
| Just like some people are better with console controllers than
| keyboard/mouse, even when playing FPS games, it's just a matter
| of practice (although FPS example has a skill-ceiling I don't
| think exists in music creation, so slightly shitty example)
| adriand wrote:
| A keyboard and a mouse might be faster in some instances, but
| they are also far less musically expressive. When it comes to
| putting emotion into music, I think it is a lot easier to do so
| with an expressive, physically embodied musical instrument.
|
| In terms of speed, I'm also not sure how quickly you can create
| articulations like vibrato and slides with a mouse and
| keyboard, but that seems like it would be fairly tedious to do
| manually? Wouldn't that require a lot of envelope tweaking?
|
| Speaking personally, playing on a pad controller uses a
| different part of my brain and body than using a keyboard and a
| mouse. When I create stuff with a keyboard and mouse, I am in
| "design mode", where I am thinking in a deliberate way, similar
| to programming. When I create stuff on a pad controller, I am
| in "express mode", where I am not really thinking at all.
| monetus wrote:
| > _Speaking personally, playing on a pad controller uses a
| different part of my brain and body than using a keyboard and
| a mouse. When I create stuff with a keyboard and mouse, I am
| in "design mode", where I am thinking in a deliberate way,
| similar to programming. When I create stuff on a pad
| controller, I am in "express mode", where I am not really
| thinking at all._
|
| This is the most important thing you said IMO. Maybe keyboard
| shortcuts and ninja mouse skills can get you into a flow
| state, "improvisation" mode, but chances are your composer
| brain will be in the lead.
| FireInsight wrote:
| That's not the point of the parent comment. For the
| expressive feel of a "real instrument", just a MIDI
| controller would do. The Push's are a lot more than just a
| MIDI controller, though. As a Push 2 owner, I use the other
| features way too little for them to be worth it to me, and I
| wouldn't buy it again. As a MIDI controller, it's my go-to.
| Mostly because I don't have much else than that and some old
| synths.
| stinos wrote:
| _When it comes to putting emotion into music, I think it is a
| lot easier to do so with an expressive, physically embodied
| musical instrument._
|
| This is exactly my experience. I started with mouse/keyboard
| only fiddling with electronic music (no music background
| whatsoever) and the day I bought a basic MIDI controller I
| ended up playing it until it was time to go to work the next
| morning.. It was such an overwhelming experience, not just
| the keys themselves but also the buttons and the trackpad.
| Finally I could just do all these tiny variations which make
| groove on the spot, immediately, in infinite variations,
| instead of going back and forth dragging things with a mouse
| in only one dimension.
| dottjt wrote:
| I disagree with this sentiment, but I also think it comes
| down to how you approach music.
|
| For me at least, music originates from my imagination. It
| starts in my head, not from playing an instrument, so to
| speak. I say this as a composer, not as a musician.
|
| Sure, if you really mastered an instrument i.e. Push 3, then
| you could use it as a form of expression. But when you're
| composing, often you're trying to tame many different
| instruments and ideas at once, so I find it much easier to do
| it all in my head first, and then think of the quickest way
| to translate it all into the computer, and for me that's the
| mouse and keyboard.
|
| I'm also primarily a song writer/producer, so for me I think
| in terms of composition after the fact i.e. once the lyrics
| have been written. But yeah, I certainly do appreciate those
| who can utilise platforms like the Push 3. However I would
| still argue that even if it is what works for you, it's still
| ultimately slower. Again, nothing wrong with that if it works
| for you.
| CuriouslyC wrote:
| Most instruments have parameters for things like vibrato that
| you can set quickly by "drawing" them with a mouse under the
| note in reaper (and probably other daws). Slide isn't really
| a normal thing with midi, you'd need the instrument plugin to
| explicitly support it using some sort of parameter, but if
| one was present it'd be easy to set via the mouse.
| vhcr wrote:
| I mean... You can do that, but I don't think you're going
| to enjoy the process compared with playing a physical
| instrument.
| Zobat wrote:
| So they built a Linnstrument? Honestly don't know who was first,
| but I know I looked at the Linnstrument a long time ago (when my
| daughter Linn was really young, she's 13 now).
|
| The Linnstrument looks better and has more buttons, and more is
| better, right?
|
| https://www.rogerlinndesign.com/linnstrument
| chuchana wrote:
| Have you seen the Soundplane
| (https://madronalabs.com/soundplane)?
| brandonmenc wrote:
| I own a Linnstrument. I used to own a Push 2. They're very
| different.
|
| Everything has (or will eventually have) MPE so everyone is
| "just building Linnstruments", just like everyone has been
| "just building MPCs".
|
| The touch interface of the Linnstrument has limitations that
| the Push probably doesn't. For example, the Linnstrument can
| register no more than three simultaneous touches in a single
| column.
| MattRix wrote:
| The first Push was released in 2013, the Linnstrument in 2014.
| [deleted]
| intrasight wrote:
| And Linnstrument is open source. And is a generic MIDI
| controller that works with any MPE compatible synth and any MPE
| VSTi instruments - such as Audio Modeling. The Push doesn't
| support VSTi.
| schwarzrules wrote:
| >>more is better, right?
|
| yes. always.
| Kye wrote:
| The idea behind Push is you can control everything in Live with
| it. It's not a generic MIDI controller like a Launchpad. It's a
| full hardware interface to a specific piece of software.
| Zobat wrote:
| "Looks better" meaning "aesthetically more pleasing".
| 6r17 wrote:
| I'm a hobbyist music "producer" ; an Ableton user for short, and
| also a programmer.
|
| I cannot express how happy i'm to finally be able to let go of
| OSX & Windows forever.
|
| This is what i'm realizing writing these lines.
|
| I'm so happy right now.
| drcongo wrote:
| Get an iPad. You can do all this and a ton more.
| edude03 wrote:
| Though I own an iPad and am waiting excited for logic - I
| will say that producers would prefer to have some kind of
| hardware to go with their software, so the push 3 isn't
| really a competitor to the iPad it's an accessory
| drcongo wrote:
| You could get a Novation Launchpad and an M1 / M2 iPad pro
| for less than this, have a tactile control surface, be able
| to use AUv3 plugins and instruments, and not be restricted
| on what host you use - this apparently won't even let you
| use VSTs.
| hajmo97 wrote:
| Which app would you suggest ?
| drcongo wrote:
| Well, Logic Pro is coming out on it later today, but apart
| from that, it massively depends on what you want to use it
| for and how you want to use it.
| prmoustache wrote:
| I don't think standalone push is made to write music in
| standalone mode. The way I see it you import your live project
| to it with the idea to carry only the push in the stage without
| having to hook it up to a laptop.
| hammyhavoc wrote:
| Yes, it seems that a copy of Ableton Live running on a
| desktop is how you access the files on the Push 3 standalone
| via Wi-Fi. It appears like a folder in the browser.
| nxpnsv wrote:
| Man are they great at PR, I've seen this product all over the
| place today
| nologic01 wrote:
| I wonder what kind of software it is running on standalone mode
| wheels wrote:
| It's probably a Linux stack. A lot of pro-audio companies have
| internal Linux versions, but don't ship them because of support
| / packaging reasons (which are miserable on Linux). That goes
| away for embedded usage.
| AndyPa32 wrote:
| I't think, it's not packaging. From RPM to DEB to Snap to
| flatpack there are lots of options. But support I get. KDE,
| Gnome or whatever choice of window manager, many different
| distributions etc., that sounds like support hell.
| wheels wrote:
| The problem isn't lack of options, it's too many. Also
| things like Snap and Flatpack don't work well if you're
| loading plugins in-process (e.g. VSTs).
| chuchana wrote:
| Seems like a good guess. It would also explain why it doesn't
| support plugins.
| capableweb wrote:
| Was wondering this too. Considering Ableton itself doesn't
| support Linux out-of-the-box, wonder if the device runs some
| sort of Windows on it, or if Ableton for Linux might be coming
| in the future.
|
| Maschine+ by Native Instruments (basically the same device but
| by another company) runs Linux although Maschine desktop
| software does not support Linux, so maybe I shouldn't get my
| hopes up.
| wellanyway wrote:
| You should not buy just in case anyone at Ableton is
| watching, I'm buying the fuck out of your offering the day it
| has linux support.
| wheels wrote:
| I used to work for NI, and at that time (15 years ago) almost
| everything worked on Linux. But it wasn't shipped because of
| packaging and support.
|
| Now that I'm back to the audio software business, our current
| product has shipped on Linux so far, but we're dropping
| support in the next version because of the disproportionate
| support costs. To a first approximation, Linux support a bit
| more expensive than supporting macOS or Windows, with about
| 1/50th the return.
|
| Again, that calculus would change for embedded usage.
| pabs3 wrote:
| By support do you mean that Linux users have more questions
| than macOS/Windows users? Or that
| porting/writing/updating/building the code takes more time?
| wheels wrote:
| It's a bunch of stuff.
|
| - Standard libraries for audio software are less tested
| on Linux and tend to be buggier there, and we have to
| chase down those bugs.
|
| - There are a bajillion versions of Linux, and even if
| you say you only support some subset of those, Linux
| users will ignore that and still write to support when it
| doesn't work on their distro / version. Sometimes that
| even extends to writing bad reviews online.
|
| - Packaging on Linux is annoying since there are a bunch
| of different formats, and nothing will make everyone
| happy.
|
| Because of those issues, we probably get almost as much
| support mail for Linux as for macOS or Windows, despite
| Linux being 1% of our user base. From a cost perspective,
| it just doesn't make sense to keep supporting it.
| Ironically, we'll keep developing it, because we do some
| of the development on Linux, and often test on Linux
| before Windows. From what I know of other companies:
| we're not unique there, and I thought some of this might
| be interesting info for pro-audio Linux users.
| hammyhavoc wrote:
| If it were me, I'd just focus on making sure it works
| well on Fedora. PipeWire is in the OOBE, and is where a
| good chunk of pro audio folks have settled due to top-
| notch PipeWire support.
| wheels wrote:
| This is exactly the sort of email we get. Except that
| this would literally be the first request for Fedora,
| exactly exemplifying our problem. (Most of our users
| request things with Ubuntu / Debian bases.)
| hammyhavoc wrote:
| I'm not requesting you do anything, I'm not even a
| customer (as far as I know), I'm saying what I would do
| in your position if I was aiming to support an audio
| product on Linux. I explained why I would choose Fedora.
| It's your business, you run it as you see fit.
|
| I can't help but feel that maybe you read too much into
| what you get sent.
|
| I would pick one "known good config" ( _your_ distro of
| choice), present it as what it gets tested on prior to
| release, and for anything else, you 're on your own,
| that's part-and-parcel to being a Linux user. It assumes
| some kind of ability to troubleshoot and solve your own
| problems. It isn't for everybody, just like a Mac or
| Windows isn't for everybody.
|
| Officially, DaVinci Resolve has CentOS as the only
| supported config, but it runs on other Linux distros just
| fine. Doesn't seem to hurt its popularity on Linux.
|
| If you go back a couple decades, there was even
| developer-recommended hardware for specific DAWs. People
| will use whatever gets the job done, your product or not,
| Linux or not.
| gcr wrote:
| I'm glad you have good ideas about how to run a business
| like this.
|
| But I think your post illustrates the idea that, unlike
| windows or mac users, us Linux users have opinions about
| how the business should be run, and we tend to voice them
| through support channels and emails and social media etc.
|
| Every time we voice our ideas, it generates a ticket or a
| discussion or a decision that they have to deal with. The
| act of contemplating these possible ideas, whether that
| means discussing them with the team or deleting the email
| or reading the slashdot thread, costs the business time
| and attention.
|
| Each time a company makes a concrete decision -- "let's
| only support Fedora," to use your example -- 80% of the
| potential linux user base you'd even care about (ubuntu
| users) is out of luck. This is true for "let's care only
| about pulseaudio," "let's only care about ALSA," "let's
| only care about this specific glib version," etc. The
| intersection of these decisions is very small.
|
| You're saying they should pick one supported
| configuration and stick with it. That's what they're
| already doing though -- it's just not an operating system
| that runs Linux. We can keep around a hardware-specific
| Windows box just the same.
| hammyhavoc wrote:
| > us Linux users have opinions about how the business
| should be run
|
| I have plenty of public and private opinions about
| software that aren't Linux-centric too, and you're
| assuming that I only use Linux, when no, a good chunk of
| my workflow is on Windows because that's where the
| software and driver support is for cutting-edge DSP and
| video game middleware. Some companies even pay for
| consulting. Businesses that rely on selling licenses to
| customers for new features heavily rely on feedback.
|
| You only have to look at the likes of the Native
| Instruments forum or their Centercode to see that
| providing feedback isn't some kind of Linux-exclusive
| phenomena, and most reasonable businesses encourage that
| feedback. _However_ , triaging and actioning that
| feedback is an entirely separate matter.
|
| > it generates a ticket or a discussion or a decision
| that they have to deal with
|
| They don't need to do _anything_. That 's entirely a
| business decision whether or not a company acts on user
| feedback, or feedback from potential customers. A lot of
| biz pay handsomely to run focus groups and and actually
| _get_ feedback whatsoever, but there 's a big difference
| between a social media discussion, a feature request, a
| bug report, or a support request.
|
| Who is seeking support for an audio product via Slashdot?
| Nobody. It's an audio product on Linux. You go where the
| devs are, where you'll get help, if they're indeed
| offering it.
|
| If somebody buys a license for x on Linux, you ask them
| what OS they use on the contact form in a dropdown or
| text field on a webpage, you use conditional logic where
| if it isn't the supported OS, you tell them "sorry, this
| isn't a supported configuration, if you would like
| support, please use the recommended/supported distro,
| here's a link for more info". This eliminates almost all
| cases of this. Prior to selling them a license, you have
| them tick a box that acknowledges that Linux support is
| limited and that unless they use x, they're SOL on
| getting support unless they go to the forum or elsewhere
| and figure it out either on their own, or with others.
|
| > The intersection of these decisions is very small.
|
| Then those customers or potential customers make a
| decision as to whether it is appropriate for them, if
| they are willing to compromise by changing x, or if Linux
| as a whole is appropriate for them in the same way that
| people who want to use Logic Pro will need to buy a Mac,
| and that might mean that some plugins aren't available on
| macOS, or aren't yet natively supporting Apple Silicon,
| and if you want to exclusively use Windows then you
| aren't going to be using MetaSynth.
|
| Renoise users on Linux seem to be able to navigate this
| without problem in terms of understanding `glibc >= 2.27
| (e.g. Ubuntu 18) on x86_64 based systems`. Same goes for
| Bitwig Studio users understanding Flatpak and PipeWire
| support.
|
| If people want to have their cake and eat it, they use
| Windows or macOS. Linux users are accustomed to
| compromise, it goes with the territory.
|
| > That's what they're already doing though
|
| And he dismissed my response as being an example of the
| problem when that wasn't what I was saying whatsoever,
| thus was not an example of his problem, and now you're
| latching onto that like I didn't already understand this.
|
| Furthermore, this entire discussion ignores the potential
| for a return by supporting an influential power user on a
| niche OS. It may actually bring significant sales of
| something in. That's _strategy_.
|
| E.g., DaVinci Resolve may not have the majority of its
| userbase on Linux, but because x major director or studio
| uses DaVinci Resolve on Linux on y film, they will sell a
| lot of software and hardware to z users on other
| operating systems. Audio has some of the most influenced
| people niche-wise because they want to use what their
| hero uses, hence signature versions of guitars, hence
| signature guitar pedals, hence VST collabs, and preset
| and sample packs from x producer.
|
| tl;dr: it's a misconstrued and misrepresented throwaway
| comment that of course turned into an irrelevant tangent
| because it's HN. On an interesting thread for an
| interesting product launch, and _this_ is what people
| focus on? Exhausting.
| wheels wrote:
| I'd add to that, because I think this sometimes isn't
| obvious for Linux users:
|
| Getting things to work as well on a variety of Linuxes is
| something that would take us as long as implementing a
| new feature that a bunch of our users care about. But the
| former helps some subset of 1% of our users, whereas the
| latter helps the majority of 99% of our users.
|
| It's not about not caring about Linux; both of us on the
| project come from a Linux multimedia background (we're
| both former KDE developers). But at some point in a
| business you have to decide which place of focusing our
| effort leaves more users happy.
| wheels wrote:
| > _I would pick one "known good config" (your distro of
| choice), present it as what it gets tested on prior to
| release, and for anything else, you're on your own [...]_
|
| That's literally what we've tried, and it hasn't worked.
| Despite us saying that's all we support, we still get
| tons of reports / requests about it not working on other
| Linuxes.
| likeclockwork wrote:
| I hope you don't work on anything I depend on!
| sideshowb wrote:
| Very cool but surely it can't be long before AI can generate top
| quality music?
|
| Of course people will still keep creating, and I'm sure there
| will be an 'organic' no-AI movement, but the exciting music tech
| of the next 10 years is going to be in that space in between the
| two...
|
| (Ableton user since version 4)
| japoco wrote:
| As with text, the current form of AI (generative AI) will be
| very good at creating music that sounds good, not good music.
| jtode wrote:
| I agree, but one lesson I've learned from fifty years of
| music obsession is that people mostly don't like good music.
| sideshowb wrote:
| Ok fair, but most of the work of music creation is in making
| it sound good. I suspect the right combination of generative
| AI plus a little human guidance at the conceptual level
| should result in music that _is_ good, with minimal effort.
| And to think I wasted all those years improving my piano ;-)
| zoul wrote:
| [dead]
| hammyhavoc wrote:
| You're missing the appeal of self-expression entirely.
| sideshowb wrote:
| Am I? How?
| rvense wrote:
| "Why learn to play an instrument when you can just buy a CD?"
| [deleted]
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