[HN Gopher] Ask HN: What did you do when a employer rejected a r...
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Ask HN: What did you do when a employer rejected a raise?
I asked my boss for a raise today and he rejected it. It's a bit
overdue and I'm paid slightly below market. I could probably find
a new better paid job in a few weeks, but I don't really want to
quit, the team is nice, I kinda like this work environment, it's a
full remote gig with decent hours. I've been thinking about
interviewing for jobs that I don't plan on getting, just to get a
better offer and force my boss hand, does that sound like a decent
idea? What do you usually do in this kind of situation?
Author : throwawayadvsec
Score : 15 points
Date : 2023-05-22 18:03 UTC (4 hours ago)
| mattbgates wrote:
| TLDR:
|
| Start looking for another job if you aren't happy there. If you
| are happy there or want to stick around for a while, ask your
| boss what it will take to allow you more opportunity/raises with
| the company.
|
| OR read the story that is relatable:
|
| When I first started in software development a few years after I
| graduated college and desperate for work to pay off my student
| loans, I landed a Visual Basic 6 job repairing bugs and adding
| new features in autobody shop software. I passed the logic test
| but failed the math horribly, and yet they still hired me at $10
| per hour back in 2012.
|
| I'd only been a self-taught programmer so most of what I learned,
| while the knowledge was good, I had to relearn some things and
| after about 3 months of building little software programs and
| improving, they finally let me work in their main program, though
| we would run hours and hours of test code before comitting
| projects, of course.
|
| My boss was a tyrant asshole who had to always be right and prove
| he was the alpha male whenever the team was present. Any ideas
| had to be his and me and a few other co-workers learned how to
| play that game... a Greek man. "Make him think it is his idea to
| get it passed!" It worked but it took weeks and months to get
| anything incorporated.
|
| He increased my pay to $12 an hour. At the time, I really thought
| I should be getting paid around $20-$25/hr for a programmer but
| being still new and somewhat learning, I accepted. I eventually
| increased productivity and attracted more and more clients.. I
| think he went from just a hundred or so clients to acquiring over
| a thousand. He had competition but he was the dominant autobody
| shop software in the nation. So I knew my worth was bringing him
| value and I wanted a raise. His form of a raise was taking me out
| to lunch once a month. And that was as far as I could get.
|
| So with my college degree and newfound knowledge learning
| everything I could, and tired of his arrogant behavior, I set out
| to find another job. I spent about 4 months looking before I
| finally got a bite. They were happy to hire me at $16/hr for a
| combination of web design work and Flash. I had to go back and
| tell my boss I was giving in my 2 weeks notice.
|
| My intentions were never to leave his company. I wanted to get
| another job offer so I could go back to him and tell them how
| much I was making so he would give me a raise, but once I had
| that other job offer... the environment was more enticing than it
| would be to stay. I wouldn't have to deal with a tyrant
| miromanaging boss anymore... and so, here I was... wanting to
| make the most money, but did I want to sell my soul to do it?
|
| He asked me how much they were paying me. I told him I couldn't
| reveal that information but it was enough to convince me to
| leave. He offered double my salary so $24/hr. This was what I
| wanted to be getting paid! It was an amazing offer! But guess
| what? I didn't want it because I knew it was attached to the
| stick he'd be dangling before me. I had grown tired of his
| tyrannical ways of being a boss and knew that money was going to
| be thrown up in my face if I didn't do my job correctly every
| time or mistakes were found. If mistakes were found, he might be
| prone to dock my pay or "make me pay for my wasted time."
|
| Well, I ended up working his job at the pay I wanted for a very
| short time: the deal was, I would work days at my other job and
| nights at his company. It only lasted a week because he installed
| spyware on my computer to see what I was doing. I had put a
| playlist on YouTube while I was working and he called me into his
| office one day (before I started the other job), and asked me why
| I was getting paid $24 an hour to listen to music all night. Not
| sure if anyone knows this but the browser records every YouTube
| url while on a playlist. There was no way he could see what I was
| doing though I did log every thing I was working on but he seemed
| to ignore the log file that recorded my saves. I was in the
| Visual Basic 6 application doing my job while YouTube was in the
| background. When I explained this to him, he seemed awestruck but
| told me I had a job to do and was getting paid to do it.
|
| I knew this wasn't going to end well and I would be micromanaged
| to the point where it was no longer worth it. I ended up quitting
| a few days later for his inability to trust that I was there to
| do my job, especially that I took it seriously considering I was
| getting paid that much in all my life. I left and went to work
| the other job at $16/hr.
|
| At the same time, I ended up getting a third new job with this
| new job that I worked at the same time: one was from 8 AM to 5 PM
| ($16/hr), the other was from 6 PM to 2 AM ($18/hr). The morning
| job ended up laying me off a year and a half later and as of
| today, I'm making a few bucks more now than what I was originally
| making at the first job. I could've been making that money years
| ago, as it did take a few more years to get there, but I
| eventually ended up getting beyond where I was expecting to be.
|
| The first job made autobody software called https://crash-
| writer.com which was bought out by a company called Web-Est,
| which was strictly online and no longer on a Windows computer.
| They ended up destroying the "Crash-writeR" software. So had I
| stayed, I would've probably been living in fear of my job
| constantly, only to be laid off because he ended up selling his
| software to his competition, which ended up eliminating him in
| the industry.
|
| All things happen for a reason and I have no regrets. So to that,
| I say to you, here are several options to consider:
|
| 1. Keep doing your job while you are looking for another if you
| really want to make more money.
|
| 2. Go back to your boss and tell him what you have done to be
| considered for a raise.
|
| 3. Go back to your boss and ask him what you can do to make the
| money that you desire and how many months that would take to
| achieve.
|
| 4. Accept the outcome and do nothing and go to work and be as
| happy as you can be for as long as you can without feeling you
| are just giving away your soul for what he values it at. It's
| your life. It's your time. It's your years. Do with it what you
| will. Choice is yours.
|
| Today I find myself in a very similar boat to you just the same:
| I am now working a job that is fully remote but there are no
| raises or bonuses anymore and this became a "company policy" a
| year ago. There is not even an option to ask for a raise. Most
| people are abandoning ship while I still remain. The reason for
| this is the remote gig allows me to spend time and take care of
| my family and it allows me to travel. So I do just the same as I
| always have done: take advantage of the situation where you can
| wake up in a new city or town every week or month. Or find
| another job where I have time to do both.
| paulcole wrote:
| > Start looking for another job if you aren't happy there.
|
| I'd expand on this and say that in the future you should be
| interviewing for new jobs when you're at your happiest! Don't
| wait until you're unhappy to find out what else is out there.
| Like the saying goes, any port in a storm.
| Issac wrote:
| Maybe ask for something other than a raise, more holiday days,
| lower regular expected weekly hours. Argue with your experience
| and look for something he can make happen, if they cant support a
| higher wage. If overtime hours are not yet being paid out or used
| up as holidays ask for this as well... you like the position, you
| like the team, and you dont really want to change job , thats
| fine so go for something that is worth it for you outside of more
| money.
|
| If they are not willing to adjust anything, they dont really
| value you enough, then you at least know it and can start looking
| for something else.
| shaftway wrote:
| Look for another job, but do not present it to your employer.
|
| I think you should always be interviewing. See what you're worth,
| see what the climate is like, hone your interviewing skills for
| the next time you *need* to interview, and maybe get a better
| offer at a more interesting place.
|
| But never ever present any kind of alternate offer to your
| manager, or let them know you've interviewed. This is equivalent
| to asking them to beat a counteroffer, and this will almost
| always end in disaster.
|
| Best case scenario: You get the raise, but the next time there
| are general raises you will be passed over. After all, you
| already got your raise.
|
| Middle case scenario: You don't get your raise. If the threat was
| idle then you stay where you were at the pay you had, but there
| will be general resentment. You will get to work on less
| interesting things and your opinion will be less heard. You will
| be sidelined in your role because you were even considering
| looking outside the company. Eventually you'll want to leave
| anyway.
|
| Worst case scenario: Your company will match or even beat the
| offer. They will spend the next couple months pairing you with
| other engineers who will quietly learn what you're doing, and
| then once the other position has been rejected and filled you
| will get laid off. Or fired for cause. It isn't hard to engineer
| enough to argue that, and even if you're fired without cause
| unemployment doesn't go very far.
| bediger4000 wrote:
| Look for different jobs. It's possible that your expectations are
| out of line, bigger companies that do a lot of hiring know more
| about the market than you do, but this is a low probability.
|
| Get out there and interview. You don't know what you'll find. The
| best bet is that you'll find a higher paying job.
| cheapliquor wrote:
| >I've been thinking about interviewing for jobs that I don't plan
| on getting, just to get a better offer and force my boss hand
|
| This is absolutely what you should be doing.
| jleyank wrote:
| Never, ever do something you have no intention of carrying
| through on. Your lack of enthusiasm will probably bleed through
| and using other people for personal gain isn't the nicest way
| to be known. People talk, and it would suck blowing an
| interview and losing a job because of such talk.
| redleader55 wrote:
| I would apply to jobs that I would be happy to get in case my
| boss decides to decline the raise anyway.
| tikkun wrote:
| > I've been thinking about interviewing for jobs that I don't
| plan on getting, just to get a better offer and force my boss
| hand, does that sound like a decent idea?
|
| Yes. Get the better offer. But you don't have to force their hand
| and be harsh about it. If you like your current job, don't say
| "match this or I'll leave" - instead, say "hey, I got this other
| offer, I really like working here, could you please match it?"
|
| Then if they say no, you can decide whether you want to stay or
| leave. If instead you said match or I'll leave, then you kinda
| force yourself into the leaving option.
| PaulKeeble wrote:
| Time to start talking to other companies offering better pay.
| Negotiating from a position of options is a far better position.
| Once a company has decided you aren't worth having any more its
| over and time to move on anyway.
| dp-hackernews wrote:
| How to negotiate with your boss for a raise? - Jordan Peterson
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwk1n33HaHY
| willcipriano wrote:
| When companies face inflation they either raise prices or lower
| costs typically by delivering less or a lower quality product.
| beardyw wrote:
| I'm going to be swimming against the tide here.
|
| > "but I don't really want to quit, the team is nice, I kinda
| like this work environment, it's a full remote gig with decent
| hours."
|
| Money is not everything.
| nunez wrote:
| How and why did your boss reject the raise? That will determine
| what you should do next, in my opinion.
| gxmw wrote:
| As a former manager at a big corporate, I just wanted to point
| out that the budget available to managers to make counteroffers
| is often very different to the budget available for ad hoc or
| periodic raises based on performance. This is especially true if
| you are willing and able to show the offer letter to prove it's
| real.
|
| I've leveraged an offer to get my compensation increased several
| times, without having to actually leave, and it did nothing to
| harm my standing with my employer. If anything, my immediate
| management respected me more for "playing the system" to my
| advantage.
|
| Finally do make sure you question any "wisdom" that taking the
| counteroffer is a bad idea is coming from. It is often repeated
| by recruiters, but clearly this is for self-serving reasons, so
| beware of that.
| paulcole wrote:
| > I've been thinking about interviewing for jobs that I don't
| plan on getting, just to get a better offer and force my boss
| hand, does that sound like a decent idea?
|
| What happens when your boss says no to matching your new offer?
| Do you quit? If not and you keep working, do you think your boss
| will overwork you/push you out afterwards? And then you'll have
| no job.
|
| Really this situation boils down to how much risk you're willing
| to accept, how willing you are to leave your current job, and how
| much you value being paid market rate.
|
| Money is just part of your comp. Would you take market rate
| salary if it meant an in-office job with un-decent hours and a
| not-nice team? I hope not!
|
| People on here talk about job hopping constantly to keep
| increasing salary, but while that may work for them, is it what
| you want to do?
|
| Can you try something like: Asking your boss what it would take
| to get the raise you asked for? Are there milestones/a timeline
| in place? Can you get anything today?
| aristofun wrote:
| You never get the same salary growth by staying in the same
| company as a programmer.
|
| I'm not sure why exactly (there are many factors including your
| initial most probably underestimated salary as a reference point
| etc.), but I never seen it working.
| fwungy wrote:
| The executives don't either. They're all passing through on
| their way to bigger and better gigs. If they can get more out
| of the employees for less money it just makes them look better.
| They don't care if they burn down the team long term because
| they'll be somewhere else.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > I've been thinking about interviewing for jobs that I don't
| plan on getting, just to get a better offer and force my boss
| hand, does that sound like a decent idea?
|
| This is a really terrible idea. Don't do this. Employers know
| this trick, and neither your current employer nor the one you're
| trying to use as leverage will appreciate your doing this.
|
| Don't burn bridges, and do assume these companies talk. Our
| industry is smaller than many people think.
|
| > What do you usually do in this kind of situation?
|
| I've done a self-evaluation. Is my current job worth working at
| with my current pay rate? If so, then I stay at my current pay
| rate. If not, then I start looking for another job -- but I do it
| seriously, not as a trick to try to coerce my employer.
| kmac_ wrote:
| Nice /s. Regarding "forcing boss hand" you just wrap it in nice
| words "Hey John! I just got this juicy offer and I don't know
| what to do! I really love working with you and I prefer to stay
| here but they gave me the offer that is hard to reject."
| JohnFen wrote:
| Its a question of intent. If I'm going out and getting offers
| but I'm not really wanting to find another job, I just want
| the offers to give me leverage in negotiations, that's a bad
| thing. Even ignoring ethical considerations, in the medium-
| to-long term it will damage your reputation and reduce your
| prospects. If nothing else, it's just unprofessional.
|
| If I'm looking for another position for real, and mention it
| to my employer, that's fine.
|
| > I really love working with you and I prefer to stay here
| but they gave me the offer that is hard to reject.
|
| I've had people come to me twice with that sort of message. I
| assumed that they were earnestly looking. For both of them, I
| told them that they should take the offer. If they were so
| unhappy working for me that they went to all the trouble to
| look for another job, and the money alone is enough to sway
| them, then matching the other offer is not likely to improve
| their job satisfaction with me. They should go where they're
| happier.
| claudiulodro wrote:
| The key question that doesn't seem to be answered in your post
| is: Do you have any sort of leverage? How replaceable/critical
| are you? That's going to determine whether there's anything you
| can do to get a raise. If the company is looking to save money
| and you're not critical, they're going to tell you to take that
| new job if you come with an offer letter in hand!
| imadj wrote:
| You just got comfy at this job, it's good enough for you, which
| why you are finding it hard to justify leaving.
|
| Anyway, no one regrets interviewing. You always learn something
| new, especially if you've been at this job/position for a while.
| 0gravitas wrote:
| > I asked my boss for a raise today and he rejected it. It's a
| bit overdue and I'm paid slightly below market.
|
| I'm sorry to hear that.
|
| > I could probably find a new better paid job in a few weeks, but
| I don't really want to quit, the team is nice, I kinda like this
| work environment, it's a full remote gig with decent hours.
|
| It sounds like there are real plusses to your current position,
| yet you are nonplussed. Would you truly be considering
| interviewing elsewhere if you felt fully satisfied with your
| current position?
|
| > I've been thinking about interviewing for jobs that I don't
| plan on getting, just to get a better offer and force my boss
| hand, does that sound like a decent idea?
|
| Generally, one may not force a superior's hand, at least not
| without real possibility of resentment and political instability.
| If you're going to the trouble of interviewing, wouldn't it be
| worthwhile to consider your options?
|
| > What do you usually do in this kind of situation?
|
| If I were in this situation, I would certainly feel under-
| appreciated at the very least. I would seriously consider my
| options, and I would not make any decision in haste. Nor would I
| take too long to decide. Carpe diem.
|
| What would I have to lose by interviewing? Wouldn't having more
| options to choose from be advantageous, regardless of which
| option I were to choose? Optionality is valuable.
|
| Frankly, if I were in your position and I were to have an outside
| offer in hand, I would not volunteer that information to my boss
| to elicit a counter offer. I would just leave. After all, he
| already made it known how much -- or how little -- he thinks I'm
| worth by rejecting my proposed raise in the first place. Even if
| he were to match the offer, would he really think that I'm worth
| it? How might it affect me in the long term if I were to stay,
| with or without the raise?
|
| Best of luck, and I hope things go as well as they can for you.
| chrisgd wrote:
| Wait 3-6 months and re-evaluate. It sounds like a great
| environment with a lot of upsides. You don't want to trade a
| terrible team for 5% more where you commute in each day. If after
| 3 months you still want to change jobs, start looking. You might
| be in a spot of feeling under appreciated today but feel
| differently soon
| century19 wrote:
| As you mostly change jobs every couple of years, I'd say you
| should be looking for way more than 5%. Unless you are at the
| top of your pay scale, in which case it's not worth moving for
| money, certainly not 5%.
| ed_at_work wrote:
| FWIW, I always got my best 'raises' by switching jobs. Often
| times exponentially larger raises than I would have gotten
| sticking around.
|
| A good company that values you will say yes to a raise. The fact
| that they say no means either a. they don't value you, or b. they
| can't afford to pay you fairly. Neither of those things is a good
| sign...
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