[HN Gopher] People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, no...
___________________________________________________________________
People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop
living
Author : belter
Score : 346 points
Date : 2023-05-20 11:24 UTC (11 hours ago)
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| tpoacher wrote:
| > Question: Can suicide be addressed as if it were a disease?
|
| > "Answer": Suicide is not a mental disorder like depression or
| addiction. In a high percentage--70% to 90%--of cases, there is
| an underlying mental disorder but there are 10% to 20%, who are
| people who may reach a point where they make an existential
| calculation, see that their life no longer makes sense, that they
| do not have a life project, and they feel isolated and experience
| a certain tiredness of living.
|
| I fundamentally DISAGREE with this interpretation (and what's
| more, I think it is a very dangerous one).
|
| At the risk of invoking the definitional fallacy, this conflates
| suicide with something that it is not.
|
| Rationality and "existential calculations" are not only
| irrelevant as causes in this context, but indeed manifestations
| of the 'condition'; human beings (and animals more generally) are
| pre-programmed to do certain things, that serve
| biological/genetic purposes in the grand scheme of things, but
| are completely irrational actions from a "logical" point of view.
| "Normal" humans primarily put dead organic matter in their
| mouths, not out of a logical desire to obtain nutrition, but
| because they 'hunger'. "Normal" humans, identify other humans to
| rub genitals with not because of a logical desire to practice
| fluid exchange or a conscious yet indifferent decision to
| rehearse procreational maneuvers optimizing for genetic
| diversification, but because they have 'sexual urges'. "Normal"
| humans don't rationally choose to sleep because they have a
| logical desire to replenish their bodies from toxins and train
| their neurons and memories, but because they feel 'sleepy'. And
| similarly, "Normal" humans do not simply choose to live or not
| live in the day because they feel their existence (or that of
| their offspring) has a specific, measurable, logical consequence
| that positively affects the planet (or whatever purpose the
| planet is here for in the first place); they go on with their
| lives precisely _despite_ the hopelessness of it all, because
| they experience a deep biological imperative and hunger for
| "survival at all costs, for themselves and/or their offspring".
|
| When anxiety or similar disease affects your ability to feel
| sleepy, it may "feel" like you're choosing revenge
| procrastination instead of sleeping, but really, your biological
| circuits that enable your sleepiness to override other functions
| are malfunctioning, allowing you the illusion of rationality and
| conscious choice. When you "decide" not to eat to the point that
| you are morbidly underweight, it may "feel" like a rational
| decision, but really, the biological circuits that control your
| brain's ability to allow hunger to override such behaviour is
| malfunctioning, allowing you the illusion or rationality and
| conscious choice. You may think you "decide" not to have sexual
| urges because of societal norms or whatnot, but really, if you
| are having no sexual urges, the part of your brain that is
| designed to override your social inhibitions in pursuit of
| procreation is malfunctioning, allowing you the illusion of
| rationality and conscious choice. And similarly, you may think
| that "I just realised life makes no logical sense" and therefore
| having suicidal thoughts sounds "rational", but really, the
| primitive part of your brain that lusts for survival is
| malfunctioning, leading to a perception of rationality and
| conscious choice in the matter of whether to live of not.
|
| Similarly, the circuits can go wrong in the opposite direction:
| you might sleep too much, be bulimic, be a sex-addict, and you
| can make yourself crazy-hypochondriac-bipolar-whatever from an
| overwhelming desire to "never die" (i.e. a pathologically high
| survival instinct).
|
| Feelings of depression or suffering etc may be important
| variables, particularly in terms of triggers and treatment, but
| are orthogonal to the problem. Indeed, there are countless
| examples of people undergoing extreme sufferring, but where that
| sufferring seemed to intensify their lust for survival, rather
| than nullify it. And there are countless examples of people who
| are living a comfortable life, ostensibly free of suffering, but
| are incredibly suicidal. We can see the same happen with other
| human urges. You can be not eating and be very conflicted about
| it, or be completely "meh" about it. Conversely, you could be
| stuffing yourself, and be very guilty about it, or be totally
| indifferent. In fact, a big feature of these conditions of
| 'diminishing urges', is that they feature "splitting". Once the
| programmable part (i.e. the 'urge') returns, the brain shifts to
| "it was never rational to think this". If the urge disappears
| again, the brain shifts to "it was always rational to think
| this". We know this very well from anorexia for instance;
| whenever the 'physical' matter is dealt with resulting in a
| successful restoration of the appetite function, anorexic
| neurosis often goes away with it. And thus the first pillar of
| treatment for anorexia is "treat the physical cause first".
|
| Yes, depression and other mental disorders are often accompanied
| by suicide, and treatment of the former often mitigates the
| latter, but it would be a mistake to conflate the two as a single
| disease, somehow manifesting in a spectrum. Rather, suicidality
| should be seen as a secondary complication of the depression as a
| primary disease. It is a mistake to consider "yes they were
| depressed, but because of this suicide was a logical decision",
| as it robs a person who may have otherwise not "logically" wanted
| to commit suicide had they been 'restored to normal function',
| from the opportunity to make that decision _in the right context
| and frame of mind_ (under the assumption that the "correct"
| frame of mind is the one that we have been programmed for as
| humans in the first place -- a deep philosophical statement in
| itself).
|
| Life is not _meant_ to be logical. The very essence of life that
| leads to its continuation is precisely the fact that there are
| things we do that ensure our survival (both individually and as a
| species), that make ZERO F**ING SENSE, and yet we do them anyway,
| because we 're programmed to do them at a _molecular_ level. If
| for whatever reason, life suddenly became logical, you could
| reliably expect the planet to blow up within a matter of weeks.
| xarromaster wrote:
| Indeed
| cideograp wrote:
| We all die eventually, so what's the big deal with leaving early?
|
| I think they're making a bold choice to complete life on their
| own terms.
| blooalien wrote:
| > ... "making a bold choice to complete life on their own
| terms."
|
| Or making the only choice they feel they have left to them when
| faced with unsurmountable obstacles to ending their pain in any
| other way... This "fuck everyone else but me" society we
| currently live in isn't real conducive to even _noticing_ or
| caring about the pain of another human (except maybe to blame,
| ridicule, or add to said pain), let alone helping them end that
| pain in a positive manner.
| NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
| This headline strikes me as asinine. It wants to be profound, and
| certainly other people who hear or read it would consider it
| wise... but it offers no true insight. It can neither explain
| suicide nor help to prevent it or educate anyone on why they
| should want to try to do that.
|
| It has a smarmy veneer of subjectivity to it.
|
| If someone built an true general AI, and it suddenly started
| obsessing over suicidal ideation, would you jump to the "it's
| suffering!" explanation, or would you ask why it was
| malfunctioning?
|
| "The subroutine that offers up solutions to perceived problems is
| fixated on a course of action that does result in the solution of
| any problem" seems more like an appropriate response. Or maybe
| "What errors exist in the code to cause it to constantly loop
| back to the wrong answer?"
|
| Those would be the non-stupid reactions. So what about a natural
| intelligence doing the same thing makes you all wax poetic about
| suffering and being pushed beyond ordinary limits and crap like
| that? Natural intelligences shaped by evolution and chance have
| it worse off, of course, bugs and errors and bad code are just
| the way things are.
|
| If anyone wants to ever be able to fix such things, this is the
| only way. Not wallowing around in psychology and other
| pseudosciences.
| lloydatkinson wrote:
| Thought this was obvious
| tiny_sal wrote:
| This is such a hacker news comment, I love it.
| lloydatkinson wrote:
| I'm not sure how. And I laugh at HN comments all the time.
|
| Is it not obvious?
| nicoburns wrote:
| I think some people have never experienced prolonged periods of
| suffering, and thus it is hard for them to imagine .
| zozbot234 wrote:
| We may have not experienced prolonged pain, but we all have
| experienced suffering. Life itself is synonymous with
| suffering, for all but those few master sages who have been
| successful in conquering all of their cravings and reaching
| the utmost of equanimity.
|
| Suicide itself is virtually always a highly disordered act,
| that only demonstrates how deeply the person resorting to it
| is mired in her cravings. While some kinds of physical or
| spiritual pain might in fact be a real obstacle to attaining
| inner growth, this is quite rare and not what most people are
| dealing with.
| bowsamic wrote:
| > Life itself is synonymous with suffering
|
| What? No it isn't. Just because some guy wearing orange
| robes told you it is, doesn't mean it's true. I have been
| through a lot of depression and I would never accept such a
| statement alone: life is no more synonymous with suffering
| than it is with peace and joy
| zozbot234 wrote:
| You are in fact agreeing with what I said, in that we do
| experience peace and joy whenever we manage to lessen
| some of our cravings (and overcoming a state of
| depression is an especially clear example of this). But
| very few people hold freeing themselves of their
| spiritual fetters as their fundamental goal in life, and
| even fewer manage to achieve this. Thus, there is clearly
| a way in which life is synonymous with suffering, at
| least as a default state that we are all mired in from
| birth.
| bowsamic wrote:
| Again, I totally disagree.
|
| A vast majority of humans experience peace and joy.
|
| A vast majority of humans also experience suffering.
|
| Why then say "life is synonymous with suffering", and not
| "life is synonymous with all the manifold experiences
| that comprise it"?
| zozbot234 wrote:
| > Why then say "life is synonymous with suffering", and
| not "life is synonymous with all the manifold experiences
| that comprise it"?
|
| Because it's important to fully empathize with those who
| have not yet learned to view pain as merely one of "all
| the manifold experiences that comprise" life. It's good
| that you understand this more spiritually sound
| perspective but to most people, suffering (meaning the
| innumerable cravings and spiritual addictions that we are
| all subject to as part of living) is kind of a Big Deal.
| Sometimes it's so big of a deal that they make
| irreversible and very poorly considered decisions over
| it, as OP discusses.
| bowsamic wrote:
| Literally the default western perspective is "life is a
| rollercoaster"
| haswell wrote:
| The Buddhist point of view on this is closer to "the
| default state of life is unsatisfactoriness". The word
| "suffering" tends to elicit thoughts about pain and
| distracts from the myriad of other ways humans "suffer"
| daily.
|
| > _life is no more synonymous with suffering than it is
| with peace and joy_
|
| I'd argue that by _default_ , life is closer to
| "unsatisfactoriness" than peace and joy, due largely to
| the evolutionary drives that make us strive for more.
| While you _may_ be fortunate enough to experience the
| latter, it comes only through deliberate effort and a
| successful navigation of life's basic survival
| requirements. Living in a modern society shields most
| people from the more persistent existential suffering of
| our ancestors.
|
| Hunger, thirst and bodily breakdown are guaranteed. Peace
| and joy are optional, but what make life worth living.
| But it is seeing "suffering" for what it is - a mental
| state that we have the power to change - that makes
| living a peaceful and joyous life possible.
| hotpotamus wrote:
| What about someone who has conquered their craving to
| continue living and decides they are prepared to embrace
| the end? Have you seen "The Good Place"? It's really quite
| an interesting show in that it combines a (sometimes very
| funny) sitcom with a pretty thoughtful exploration into the
| subject of ethics.
| nicoburns wrote:
| > We may have not experienced prolonged pain, but we all
| have experienced suffering
|
| Sure, but people rarely consider suicide due to momentary
| suffering, or even suffering for a few weeks or month.
| People typically consider suicide when they can't see an
| end to their suffering, and while this is sometimes
| irrational there are also many cases where it isn't.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| I've already pointed out that suffering is inherent to
| life for most of us, so it encompasses far more than "a
| few weeks or month[s]". You seem to be focusing on the
| aversion of physical or spiritual pain, but that's merely
| one sort of suffering which is not different in nature
| from the far subtler and less obvious suffering we all
| experience throughout our lives.
| vaidhy wrote:
| There is suffering and there is suffering. Even Buddha
| differentiated between the physical needs and the
| spiritual pain. We now know there is also mental pain and
| it is disingenuous to categorize all of them into a
| single category.
| reuben364 wrote:
| I'm sure that holds for most people. However I'm not exactly
| attached to the idea of being alive. If I'm dead I naturally
| wouldn't have any thoughts on the matter. Dying however does
| scare me.
| sylware wrote:
| Yep, or you'll get all depressed young adults seeking state
| assisted suicide.
| ycombin23918 wrote:
| [flagged]
| thr-nrg wrote:
| So long as it's not state mandated, more power to them. If they
| feel 50 more years are not something they want why should we
| force them to?
| brazzy wrote:
| Because the vast majority of them eventually (often pretty
| soon) change their mind about it.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| A permanent solution to a temporary problem still solves
| the problem
| pdevr wrote:
| This lumps all the people who die by suicide into a single
| category. People commit suicide for various reasons.
|
| Some of them do it to stop suffering, as the article says. Some
| do it out of sheer vengeance. Some do it as part of a pact. Some
| do it in such a way so that the cause is not proven to be
| suicide, and thus their near-and-dear get the insurance money.
| Some do it so that they have control over their lives till the
| very end. Some others like Mitchell Heisman, do it just because
| they can.
|
| At the same time, some of these causes are preventable. Good
| faith attempts to address those causes are, of course, always
| laudable.
| 93po wrote:
| My personal experience with ideation was both because I was
| suffering, but also because of complete apathy. I didn't care
| about my life and didn't see a point to continuing it. The
| suffering was influential as well, but even without it, I still
| didn't see a point and life was _effort_.
|
| To be honest, now being in a much healthier place, I still
| somewhat don't care about my life beyond the animal instinct of
| death being scary. I am still apathetic about my life and its
| impact on the universe. But I'm in a healthier place of being
| able to find joy in places, and finding a sense of satisfaction
| in enduring through all the effort that life requires.
|
| Also as sad as it is, the thing that has nearly entirely
| alleviated my mental health issues has been adderall. It is by
| far the most effective drug I've ever taken for it, and I've
| tried a lot.
| Wronnay wrote:
| "Why hasn't the number of deaths by suicide decreased?"
|
| That housing and groceries is getting more and more expensive
| certainly doesn't help with that...
|
| Of course, not so many people in this world suffer anymore from
| hunger but in the last years additional problems came up.
|
| I know some older people who think that Depression is just a
| excuse for not wanting to work but these older people had it
| easier to build or buy a house than my generation - so I think
| more that the rising Depression in many is a symptom for an live
| which gets more and more difficult and them not being able to
| deal with it.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> these older people had it easier to build or buy a house
| than my generation_
|
| Also easier in finding a job with an employer that would invest
| in your training and invest in the community and a stable
| economy where your wages, purchasing power and savings weren't
| obliterated overnight through the stroke of a pen that also
| pushed housing prices up by the same amount.
|
| The fabric of society and community has degraded in the last
| couple of decades since the 2008 bust and it hasn't gotten any
| better. It's now "grab everything you can while you can, screw
| everyone else, or be poor".
| Name_Chawps wrote:
| You truly think housing and food have anything to do with it?
| We live in the richest society in history, and also the most
| suicidal. Why don't people living in true poverty around the
| world feel depressed and kill themselves like we do?
|
| Why do we kill ourselves? It's because we have no communities
| anymore. Many of us are alone. Some call it a loneliness
| epidemic. And we've replaced community with social media. Our
| society is sick, and it has nothing to do with needing more
| housing or whatever your pet political issue is.
| badpun wrote:
| > We live in the richest society in history, and also the
| most suicidal.
|
| Actually, the US is not even in top 30 of countries with most
| suicides per capita. And of course, it's probably better than
| most at actually keeping records, which means that it should
| be even lower down the list.
|
| See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suici
| de_r...
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| I think it is more than just loss of communities, although
| that is a big part of it.
|
| It is also a hallowing out of the human experience and the
| inability to enjoy simple pleasures available to anyone
| alive.
|
| Consumerism is so deeply entrenched in the minds of people
| that they usually blame their unhappiness on a lack of
| material goods and external factors.
|
| Meanwhile, There are millions or billions of people who can
| find pleasure and satisfaction with with practically nothing.
| Enjoying a quiet cup of tea in hovels, reading books for
| pleasure, or taking in everyday beauty.
|
| To me, this indicates that a large part of dissatisfaction on
| depression are about mindset, which should be obvious.
| harimau777 wrote:
| If they have a spouse and kids, then perhaps they are
| simply better off than someone who is wealthy but alone.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| yeah, I think that is a big part of it. Or people who
| have friends, social groups, ect.
|
| It can also have to do with what you focus your attention
| and spend your time on. Maybe watching the 40+ hours of
| TV a week that average Americans do doesn't actually make
| people happier, and sitting around a coffee shop and
| playing games (a cheap and common past time in some poor
| countries), is better for mental health.
| twelve40 wrote:
| maybe. I tried to play board games with my boys many
| times, but even something as simple and potentially
| enjoyable as Monopoly or cards quickly turns our warm
| relationship into a nasty pissing match. We actually
| turned to movies and shows for that reason (or more
| collaborative types of games but that's harder to come
| by)
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| I don't know you or your family so I would never comment
| on whether I think your choices are healthy or not.
|
| My point was more General in that people can make poor
| choices for themselves that leave them unfulfilled and
| worse off.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| Mental illness and mental issues are systemically
| underdiagnoaed in the third world. I do not believe for a
| single second that third worlders have better mental health
| than first worlders. The average third worlders has seen
| ultra traumatic experiences that simply do not happen to
| the average first worlder.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| I do think that third worlders have better mental health
| than first worlders with respect to depression.
|
| Different people respond in wildly different ways to
| hardship and trauma. The difference in outcome between
| two people is internal, not circumstance. It is
| impossible that it could be otherwise when you some
| people have experienced the worst the world has to offer
| and are relatively happy, while some others have
| experienced the best and are suicidal.
|
| Furthermore, know that the _same_ people can be depressed
| or happy despite the same material external
| circumstances, depending on their outlook.
|
| Depression especially hinges on mental perspective,
| perspective, and conditioning. It stands to reason that
| this could vary culturally and geographically for many
| reasons.
|
| It would be absolutely unethical, but I think you could
| raise two sets of children to be more depressed or happy
| with the same material quality of life. Raise one group
| telling them they are helpless, worthless, and that the
| world is a terrible place. Tell them that you will give
| them riches and always disappoint them. Take the other
| and teach them to have low expectations but enjoy simple
| pleasures. Equip them with cognitive tools to deal with
| the challenges of life and disappointment in healthy
| ways. Do you think you would see a difference between the
| two groups?
| twelve40 wrote:
| Well the first group you mentioned is borderline abused
| so of course they would be miserable. The second group is
| interesting.
|
| > enjoy simple pleasures. Equip them with cognitive tools
| to deal with the challenges of life and disappointment in
| healthy ways
|
| is this really fully teachable? Is it something that
| truly can be trained or it depends on a very complicated
| number of external and internal factors, including
| genetics?
|
| as far as this part: > teach them to have low
| expectations
|
| Sounds kind of simplistic to say that, but there is
| always this worry that having low expectations leads to
| McDonald's, where you may realize that no you actually
| expected much more out of life, but by that point it's
| kind of too late and pretty hard to dig yourself out.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| I would agree that the first case could be construed as
| abuse, but this type of abuse is relatively common to
| some degree.
|
| My point was more to illustrate the fact that cognitive
| development and personality impact how people experience
| the world, and is probably the biggest factor in what we
| consider depression.
|
| The point is to show how trivial it would be to bias
| humans towards depression and thereby illustrate the
| importance of the psychological component.
|
| I don't think that you can teach kids in a way that's
| 100% successful, but I still think it is a huge Factor,
| probably then the biggest. There's vast amount of data
| that backs this up.
|
| When it comes to my statement about expectations, it is
| obviously more nuanced. What I meant is low expectations
| for how easy life will be in that they will have to
| overcome challenge and that a happy and successful life
| requires work. Also low expectations for the material
| necessity is to have a happy life. I look around today
| and see lots of peers who think they can't be happy
| without owning a home. Owning a home is admittedly more
| difficult now than in the past, but even then something
| like 40% of people would never be homeowners in their
| life. If that's a prerequisite for happiness, you have
| doomed 40% of the population to be unhappy
| Wronnay wrote:
| > Why don't people living in true poverty around the world
| feel depressed and kill themselves like we do?
|
| That actually happens. There are just not enough statistics
| about that because nobody cares.
|
| I remember a documentary about a part in China with a very
| high suicide rate - mostly because people couldn't find a
| job. Another example would be the Irish Travellers - a
| community which has it hard to find a job and has a way
| higher suicide rate than the rest of the UK.
| firstplacelast wrote:
| Absolutely, yes.
|
| I can't speak for everyone, but for whatever reason those
| things cause me (a very middle-class person) a lot of stress.
|
| Maybe because of what I was taught or how I grew up or my
| experiences, which are not the same for everyone, but it's
| still there. I've been food insecure, been temporarily
| homeless, had to bounce around from place to place without
| much money to my name when younger.
|
| Not being able to put down roots stresses me out. Will rent
| go up? Will landlord sell my place (has happened before),
| will I need to move to the middle of nowhere in my late 40's
| and start all over building a community?
|
| I'm not looking for a nice SFH as a need, just a mediocre
| condo, but in a very expensive place. It's where the jobs
| are, unfortunately. Relying on other people's income
| (roommate/spouse) does not solve this issue for me.
|
| While there are many different issues for many different
| people, not being able to carve out a space for yourself is
| very stressful for many people.
|
| I've talked about this in therapy. Get married or look at all
| the poor people worse off is what I am told. Not helpful.
|
| It is what it is, I guess.
| guerrilla wrote:
| This is a blatant false dichotomy. People can stop suffering by
| stopping living. If a person perceives the probability of
| continued suffering in life as very high with no ability to
| effect that then stopping living is their best chance to stop
| their suffering.
| gwd wrote:
| "...what is it we need but more life? What does the infant need
| but more life? What does the bosom of his mother give him but
| life in abundance? What does the old man need, whose limbs are
| weak and whose pulse is low, but more of the life which seems
| ebbing from him? Weary with feebleness, he calls upon death, but
| in reality it is life he wants. It is but the encroaching death
| in him that desires death. He longs for rest, but death cannot
| rest; death would be as much an end to rest as to weariness: even
| weakness cannot rest; it takes strength as well as weariness to
| rest. How different is the weariness of the strong man after
| labour unduly prolonged, from the weariness of the sick man who
| in the morning cries out, 'Would God it were evening!' and in the
| evening, 'Would God it were morning!' Low-sunk life imagines
| itself weary of life, but it is death, not life, it is weary of.
| Never a cry went out after the opposite of life from any soul
| that knew what life is. Why does the poor, worn, out-worn suicide
| seek death? Is it not in reality to escape from death?--from the
| death of homelessness and hunger and cold; the death of failure,
| disappointment, and distraction; the death of the exhaustion of
| passion; the death of madness--of a household he cannot rule; the
| death of crime and fear of discovery? He seeks the darkness
| because it seems a refuge from the death which possesses him. He
| is a creature possessed by death; what he calls his life is but a
| dream full of horrible phantasms." -- George Macdonald, "Unspoken
| Sermons: Life"
| niea_11 wrote:
| Another relevant quote by David foster wallace :
|
| _The so-called 'psychotically depressed' person who tries to
| kill herself doesn't do so out of quote 'hopelessness' or any
| abstract conviction that life's assets and debits do not
| square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing.
| The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain
| unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped
| person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-
| rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning
| windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still
| just as great as it would be for you or me standing
| speculatively at the same window just checking out the view;
| i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here
| is the other terror, the fire's flames: when the flames get
| close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less
| terrible of two terrors. It's not desiring the fall; it's
| terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk,
| looking up and yelling 'Don't!' and 'Hang on!', can understand
| the jump. Not really. You'd have to have personally been
| trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way
| beyond falling._
| layer8 wrote:
| > The so-called 'psychotically depressed' person who tries to
| kill herself doesn't do so out of quote 'hopelessness'
|
| Yes, they do. Out of personal experience, when things are
| very bad and you have lost all hope of thing being able to
| get better _ever_ , that is a strong incentive for suicide.
| Having any hope vs. none makes a crucial difference in
| whether life is bearable.
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| i think this opinion is simply wrong. a lot of people do kill
| themselves out of a feeling of hopelessness. and yes, for
| some death seems very appealing at some point especially
| given a painless method. every time i read something by dfw i
| get the impression that he was just a little bit too
| infatuated with his eloquence and putting style over
| substance.
| ryandvm wrote:
| That is a powerful metaphor.
| atchoo wrote:
| Should people quote DFW as an authority given his suicide?
|
| Using metaphors of physical reality for psychological states
| can make it falsely appear more immutable that it is. It is
| possible to escape the burning buildings of the mind and
| knowing that you have agency over your ideas can be an
| essential part of the reframing/rethinking/challenging that
| can free you from suffering.
|
| Letting people believe they are in a situation like floor 100
| of the WTC and their flesh is literally burning with no
| escape could be outright harmful and irresponsible for those
| experiencing suicidal ideation.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| > Should people quote DFW as an authority given his
| suicide?
|
| Why not?
|
| It sounds as if you presuppose that it's always wrong to
| take your own life, and that anyone who thinks otherwise
| should be "cancelled".
| hiatus wrote:
| > Should people quote DFW as an authority given his
| suicide?
|
| A very good writer who committed suicide is probably a
| great person from whose experience we might learn,
| especially since they expressed what might be their
| internal anguish so eloquently.
| atchoo wrote:
| He might only teach as a counter-example.
|
| He may be advocating for highly dysfunctional irrational
| thinking patterns that leads to suicide. They might be
| convincing, seductive and dangerous and should only be
| responsibly presented with clear context and challenge.
| dimal wrote:
| I don't think he was advocating anything. I think that
| misses the point. He was just trying to state the matter
| in a form that would allow people to understand the
| suffering better and have empathy for those who are in
| that type of suffering. Personally, I think he nailed it,
| and for that I am thankful.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| this sounds like "don't ever listen to anyone because
| they might be wrong"
| 2devnull wrote:
| I like the idea that DFW is such a good writer that his
| words cause death. That would be a great plot device.
| mattkrause wrote:
| Throw in a tennis academy and some strange quasi-
| apocalyptic geopolitics and you might have yourself a
| book! :)
| [deleted]
| uoaei wrote:
| He's trying to share what the experience is like to
| promote empathy, so that suicide can be better understood
| by those with less personal experience with it. He's not
| advocating for people to commit suicide, just for ways to
| engage with the problem that doesn't further isolate and
| other those who are suffering.
| niea_11 wrote:
| Sorry, I never read the quote as supporting suicide as a
| decision. But it's possible that a person contemplating
| suicide might see it that way.
|
| I always read it as being about empathy. Explaining that
| sometimes a person's action probably have subjectively
| valid reasons that we should try to understand, or at least
| try to accept.
|
| I read the gp comment's quote the same way that's why I
| shared this one.
| jimsimmons wrote:
| It isn't seen an condoning suicide. GPs point is more
| that his eventual suicide makes him less of an authority
| here. Bit like a relapsing addict trying to justify his
| drug use
| mthoms wrote:
| Not justify... _explain_.
| Xelynega wrote:
| I think to portray it otherwise would be to lose the
| message, and the fact that Wallace commited suicide should
| give credibility that the thoughts he wrote beforehand were
| those of an eventually suicidal man.
|
| In my opinion, without the immutability of the situation
| the metaphor loses its meaning. People don't kill
| themselves because they feel they're in a situation they
| can get out of. I think it does more harm for those with
| suicidal ideation to ignore their feelings rather than
| validate them.
| [deleted]
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| > i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant.
|
| I don't buy it. From personal experience I know that certain
| mental states can reduce or exacerbate fears.
| worrycue wrote:
| > What does the old man need, whose limbs are weak and whose
| pulse is low, but more of the life which seems ebbing from him?
|
| The old man needs _health_ and life. Without health, life would
| just be a tortured existence and at some point "enough is
| enough".*
|
| * It doesn't help that for many old people, all their friends
| are also gone. Without their social circle, it's one less
| reason to hang around.
| gwd wrote:
| I think you missed Macdonald's point. He's saying that "real
| life" is not simply the continuance of conscious existence,
| but "human thriving". If the man could achieve human thriving
| without health and without friends, then he'd be fine; it's
| precisely because he _cannot_ achieve "human thriving"
| without health and without friends that that he says "I'm
| tired of life". Health problems, pain, and loneliness aren't
| life, but a form of death. So, MacDonald says, he's not tired
| of _life_ -- he 's tired of the continuance of conscious
| existence _without_ life; he is, in fact, tired of _death_.
| GartzenDeHaes wrote:
| "Adults aged 75 and older have one of the highest suicide
| rates (20.3 per 100,000). Men aged 75 and older have the
| highest rate (42.2 per 100,000) compared to other age
| groups." [1]
|
| 1. https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/facts/disparities-in-
| suicide.htm...
| treeman79 wrote:
| at lowest for me it was normal to be in bed for 16-20 hours a day
| in agonizing pain and horrific migraines. Dozens of doctor
| appointments had mostly been a waste. They all claimed it was
| anxiety.
|
| Realized one morning that I had spent hours thinking how
| wonderful it would be to never wake up again. Have kids, and the
| would end up in state care without me. (No family capable of
| caring for them)
|
| Started trying every suggestion I could find on the internet.
| Lots of wasted effort and backfires. 6 months later I was
| Kayaking with kids each weekend. Took about 3 years to get mostly
| back to normal.
|
| Hardest part was giving up all normal food and switching to a
| strict plain chicken, sweet potatoes and green veggies diet.
| Supplements, massages, avoiding all scents, special eye glasses,
| etc. eventually finding the right medications that didn't have
| insane side effects.
| the__alchemist wrote:
| What/was is the cause of the pain and migraines? What triggered
| the fix, if you know? (The transition from bed to a kayak)
| treeman79 wrote:
| Underlying causes. Autoimmune Sjogrens, clotting disorder
| that was in over drive (factor 5) high cranial pressure(IIH)
| Nerve damage(probably from Sjogrens) lot Vit D
|
| Did an elimination diet. That calmed the body down. AIP diet
| to maintain.
|
| Started high doses of Vit D, E, Omega 3. Started watching bob
| and Brad and spent a couple hours a day on stretching and
| massages. Discovered and treated TMJ. Removing smells and
| lights. That got migraines under control. (Slow reduction
| over the months)
|
| LDN got nerve pain under control.
|
| Diamox to get head pressure under control.
|
| The big one was I kept having stroke symptoms, but MRIs were
| clean. Started blood thinners and symptoms went away.
| throwaway02sfv wrote:
| My wife seems to have broadly the same symptoms you are
| mentioning.
|
| Sharp migraines, anxiety attacks (as per doctors), rapid
| heartbeats, disturbed sleep, bodyache, random mood swings
| etc.
|
| Her MRI is clean too. Doctors just started her with blood
| thinners which might be alleviating some pain but no, she
| is not feeling good at all. Had done multiple tests,
| visited bunch of doctors but still yet to figure what's
| exactly wrong with her body?
| denton-scratch wrote:
| The article is heavily focused on how to prevent suicide.
|
| They note that suicide is sometimes rational (they call it
| "existential", euphemistically). I'm all for removing the causes
| of people wanting to die.
|
| But if people have any rights at all, the right to decide when
| and how you die seems to be the most fundamental.
|
| It seems to be almost impossible nowadays to obtain the kinds of
| drugs (basically, barbiturates) that you need to ensure a quick,
| painless death. Doctors get struck-off for so much as giving true
| advice on how to do it. You can get charged for accompanying your
| relative to a Swiss clinic.
|
| The idea that relatives might encourage an elderly person to kill
| themselves is widespread, but I think that kind of motive is
| pretty rare. Mostly the opposition to enabling killing yourself
| is ideological, and seems to be particularly prevalent among
| people with strong religious opinions.
|
| I don't want to die. But I'm not very well, and I might get to
| the point where I do want to. So I've been trying for several
| years to acquire the means to do it easily. But I've failed
| dismally.
| aeturnum wrote:
| IMO this is correct - an implication of the inherent worthiness
| of each human and each of our rights to self determination is
| that people get to make choices about their lives (including
| this kind of choice).
|
| I have always approached the morality of this question as: how
| should other people in the life of someone who is convinced
| they want to die act? It's clearly possible they are suffering
| from a temporary set of conditions that will pass - it's also
| possible that they are making a sad but accurate judgement
| about what they would prefer under the circumstances. The
| former is _much more common_ but to ignore the later cuts you
| off from connecting to and helping people who are struggling. I
| actually quite like the disease understanding of suicidality -
| like other diseases we should do our best to treat it and give
| comfort to the afflicted, and we should work to recognize when
| the case is too advanced and we should switch to palliative
| care.
| zajio1am wrote:
| > Ut seems to be almost impossible nowadays to obtain the kinds
| of drugs (basically, barbiturates) that you need to ensure a
| quick, painless death
|
| There is an easy way to get quick, painless death. One can just
| get diving regulator (from diving shop) and nitrogen cylinder
| (from industrial gas shop). As feeling of suffocation is based
| on raising CO2 levels, scuba mask that allows breath-out CO2
| while breath-in N2 leads to fast asphyxiation without feeling
| of suffocation.
|
| https://www.researchgate.net/publication/253647263_Suicidal_...
| denton-scratch wrote:
| I'm aware that N2 leads to a quick and painless death; I've
| been warned more than once by lab-workers of the dangers of
| opening liquid N2 tanks in basements, even though I've never
| been near a lab.
|
| But I thought there was some downside? I can't remember.
| Obviously, it's difficult to dose accurately, and it's
| impossible to stop dosing once you've had enough. So there is
| a risk you'll be discovered in a space filled with an
| odourless, invisible toxic gas.
|
| What does a scuba mask do, that you can't do without a scuba
| mask? Surely, if you can breathe in and out, you can exhale
| CO2? My understanding is if you breathe N2, you first become
| unconscious (with no preceding wooziness), then you die. So
| there's a huge risk of accidents. Maybe that's why I thought
| there was a downside.
|
| At any rate, "being discovered" is something I'd want to
| avoid at all costs! I can't imagine what it would be like to
| discover the body of someone that had killed themself.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| > Mostly the opposition to enabling killing yourself is
| ideological, and seems to be particularly prevalent among
| people with strong religious opinions.
|
| Kevin Yuill is an atheist. If you want the non-religious
| argument against state-sanctioned suicide read him (though, of
| course, as an individual he doesn't cover every anti-euthanasia
| atheist's point of view).
|
| I'm sorry for your particular situation.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| > non-religious argument against state-sanctioned suicide
|
| I don't like the word "suicide" at all. It has strong
| connotations of sin and criminality.
|
| The phrase "state-sanctioned suicide" implies that the state
| has active involvement in someone taking their own life. What
| I'm talking about is the state not actively interfering to
| make it hard for someone to decide for themself how and when
| they die.
|
| "My particular situation" is nothing; I'm fine, and whatever
| health problems I have are the result of a life of self-
| indulgence and dissolution.
| mthoms wrote:
| The expression " _committing_ suicide " has those
| connotations and is considered taboo by some. Maybe that's
| what you're thinking of? The alternative suggestion is
| "death by suicide" which is both technically correct and
| devoid of any implication of criminality/sin.
|
| Of course, you're free to think what you want about the
| word, I'm just relaying something I've read.
|
| (I agree with the rest of your point, I just wanted to
| mention that specific nuance about the terminology)
| denton-scratch wrote:
| I was alive when attempting suicide was still a crime
| (obviously, you can't be prosecuted for succeeding!). For
| me, the word "suicide" has connotations of wrongdoing,
| like "homicide" and "patricide".
|
| Younger generations may not be so aware of those
| connotations.
|
| For me, "commit" doesn't have connotations of wrongdoing,
| unless it's a matter of a bad commit that breaks the
| build. "Death by suicide" doesn't name an act; it's a
| verdict.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| Suicide literally just means killing oneself:
| https://www.etymonline.com/word/suicide
|
| The connotations of sin and criminality are in the eye of
| the beholder.
|
| > What I'm talking about is the state not actively
| interfering to make it hard for someone to decide for
| themself how and when they die.
|
| But it does by regulating it. By deciding which suicides,
| or requests for euthanasia[1] are legitimate, and which
| aren't. If there were no barriers or gatekeeping in place a
| large chunk of the populace would kill themselves as
| teenagers.
|
| [1]- incidentally, the word "euthanasia" strikes terror and
| horror in me. I much prefer suicide, as the grammatical
| locus of control is on the person killing themself, not
| some amorphous other.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| Suicide remains a sin in the eyes of the Catholic Church
| (the largest Christian denomination); and attempting it
| was a crime, at least in the UK (where I live) until
| 1961.
|
| People still speak of "committing" suicide, like
| committing murder. I can't think of any other legal act
| that you can "commit".
|
| [Edit] Wrong! Adultery, for example, is legal, and is
| something you commit. So I suppose that in general, you
| can "commit" it if it's a sin, or more generally
| something you shouldn't do.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| Sure. People also use the phrase "committing a traffic
| infraction".
|
| "Committing to each other in marriage"
|
| "Committing to a college"
|
| "Committing money to a cause"
|
| "Committing to God by accepting Jesus as your lord and
| savior" :D
|
| I totally understand that there's baggage to this word
| (suicide). Given the totality of the ending of life I
| feel that highlighting all of these connotations with the
| word "suicide" is a good thing to do, as a minor, first-
| line form of gatekeeping. Nature is red in tooth and
| claw. While there are many situations in which it is okay
| to look at life-and-death with rose-colored glasses, when
| push comes to shove it is important to view the world
| without blinders.
| pseudalopex wrote:
| Commit and commit to have different meanings. You do not
| say people committed marriage.
| robotresearcher wrote:
| You can be in a committed marriage.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| This is a good point.
|
| "During his life he committed many good deeds." It is a
| much rarer usage, and typically less specific. Possibly
| grammatically incorrect as you'd generally substitute
| "performed" for "committed" in such a case.
| stefantalpalaru wrote:
| [dead]
| Petrichor-Dusk wrote:
| I feel like this is pretty obvious - then again I suppose some
| people cannot relate to those who have fallen into the state of
| mind that makes one end their life.
|
| To whoever reads this I guarantee that someone in your life
| (perhaps you) is suffering greatly, sometimes it may be hidden or
| on full display.
|
| I've had chronic pain my whole life and have dealt with
| depression and many other issues so I think I am qualified to
| talk about this.
|
| One thing I didn't like about this article is how they point out
| self harm in adolescent girls. This is such an overused
| stereotype. People of all ages and genders self harm--and I have
| plenty of experience with it.
|
| There are many reasons why one might end their life, but often
| people are thrown into situations that definitely intice the idea
| of suicide. Some can be worse than others and are truly
| inescapable.
|
| For example in my case it was mainly not being cisgender and
| having childhood trauma. A lot of people sadly don't have any
| empathy for trans and gender non-conforming people. You cannot
| choose fundamental parts of yourself; most wouldn't be willing to
| choose to be rejected by society anyway. Some trans people don't
| have a lot of dysphoria but it can hit others pretty hard.
|
| For me it's this constant weight on my shoulders, and no matter
| how much I try to get rid of it it won't go away. Looking in the
| mirror and seeing someone else look back is depressing and gets
| old real soon. But even if you move past those issues society
| seems to do their best to make people who are already suffering
| suffer more. The constant hate, high murder and violence rates.
| In some cases your very existance is deemed as a crime that
| deserves death. It is hard to trust anyone when nearly everyone
| around you rejects the idea of you.
|
| For a long time the only thing I wanted was to stop suffering--in
| other words die.
|
| Hormone therapy made me feel better, but the thing that helped me
| the most was psychedlics. They've made me overall less depressed,
| and now my current ideology is that I am going to die eventually,
| so I may as well try to actually live before then. I ended up
| writing more than I intended to :) so I'll leave it as that.
|
| TL;DR: Some of my thoughts and experiences. PS. Don't do
| psychedelics (or any drug) without proper research and
| preparation. Make sure to test them as well!
| daevout wrote:
| That might be true for the subset of suicides the author has
| studied, but there are about as many reasons humans commit
| suicide as there are reasons they commit homicide, which is to
| say, infinite varieties.
|
| There's religious (Heavean's Gate, that recent kenyan cult),
| protest (self-immolating monks), media spectacle (Yukio Mishima),
| honor (seppuku, the samurai ritual mishima was immitating), shame
| (pompei), escape (L pills) fiancial ruin (1929 brokers), and fads
| (90s school shooters). Then there's suicide as a way of life
| (downtown SF, opioid epidemic).
|
| The idea that this is all caused by "suffering" that could be
| prevented through increasingly sophiaticated treatmant plans or
| perhaps extended social welfare programs is a peculiar modern
| secular idea. I wonder if people who believe this sincerely are
| staving off their own suicide this way.
| burningoof wrote:
| This is dark, but it's interesting to me that the people who jump
| from a burning building and the people who end themselves on
| their own time are performing the same calculus.
|
| Nobody wants to die, but when your life starts to look like a
| burning building, sometimes the window doesn't seem so bad.
| NotYourLawyer wrote:
| That's not the same calculus at all. The burning building is
| "I'm gonna be dead in 5 minutes no matter what I do. Might as
| well make it quick instead of excruciating."
| paulcole wrote:
| > sometimes the window doesn't seem so bad.
|
| No, the window still seems awful but it's the choice you make.
|
| From David Foster Wallace:
|
| "The so-called 'psychotically depressed' person who tries to
| kill herself doesn't do so out of quote 'hopelessness' or any
| abstract conviction that life's assets and debits do not
| square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing.
| The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain
| unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped
| person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-
| rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning
| windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still
| just as great as it would be for you or me standing
| speculatively at the same window just checking out the view;
| i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here
| is the other terror, the fire's flames: when the flames get
| close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less
| terrible of two terrors. It's not desiring the fall; it's
| terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk,
| looking up and yelling 'Don't!' and 'Hang on!', can understand
| the jump. Not really. You'd have to have personally been
| trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way
| beyond falling."
| burningoof wrote:
| Yeah, I mean bad by comparison. The point is that no human
| wants to jump out a window, ever.
|
| It's also worth pointing out that depression can warp your
| sense of reality and make you believe you're in a burning
| building when you're not, so to speak.
|
| I love your quote and it likely inspired my comment
| subconsciously
| giantg2 wrote:
| "looking up and yelling 'Don't!' and 'Hang on!"
|
| Are there people who actually yell this? It seems pretty
| obvious why they're jumping.
| moffkalast wrote:
| "Do a flip!" might make them laugh enough to reconsider.
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| Bite my shiny metal ass
| dazc wrote:
| It could be considered a natural instinct to do this?
|
| I once encountered a guy who was thinking of jumping off a
| bridge and I said a lot of stupid but well meaning things
| in an attempt to dissuade him.
|
| It got to the point where I realized everything I was
| saying was just making him more determined to do it.
| Luckily, I managed to flag down a passing ambulance and the
| paramedics onboard turned out to be a lot more skilled in
| the art of persuasion than I was.
| Accacin wrote:
| At least you tried my friend, that's a lot more than some
| would choose to do :)
| cmehdy wrote:
| I have generalized anxiety disorder along with the lifelong
| depression. My life has felt like a permanent "emergency mode"
| from the inside, and with how my body processes things. The
| funny consequence is that I've been at multiple points a
| helpful anchor for healthier people in actual emergency
| situations, from panic attacks to much scarier things. When the
| house is on fire I'm feeling most at peace as the world and my
| brain align (and I have a mental "muscle memory" to use), and I
| guide people fairly well right back to the gates of "being OK",
| but I let them pass through and stay behind.
|
| This has helped in life or death situations a few times
| (including an actual building fire), as well as in professional
| work. Then the situation gets fixed and the world goes on as I
| return to illness. I'm glad there's at least some upsides to
| this whole thing.
| sgjohnson wrote:
| I don't think that this is universally true.
|
| Sure, most of them want to stop suffering or are looking for a
| permanent solution to a temporary problem.
|
| But I don't have a shred of doubt that it's possible to make a
| conscious good faith choice to stop living.
| unobatbayar wrote:
| This is why daily full-body sunlight exposure of 15-20 minutes
| without sunglasses and sunscreen is important.
| goodpoint wrote:
| To kill yourself by getting skin cancer?
| mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote:
| Honestly, I just find it hard to care about skin cancer all
| that much. I gotta die from something at some point, and I
| feel like covering my skin in nasty oils and stuff on every
| nice summer day is too much a price for me just to die from
| "not skin cancer". Because now every nice day is a little bit
| less nice.
|
| Ofc I'm a bit lucky because I can at least tan somewhat, so
| if I just taper up my sun exposure in the spring I don't
| really get burned.
| codr7 wrote:
| [flagged]
| goodpoint wrote:
| [flagged]
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Fact: There was no such thing as skin cancer before we
| started rubbing toxic crap like aluminum into our skin to
| "avoid it".
|
| Recognizable descriptions of malignant melanoma date back
| to at least Hippocrates.
| codr7 wrote:
| [flagged]
| goodpoint wrote:
| Stop spreading misinformation. This is HN not reddit.
| dale_glass wrote:
| There are better and worse ways of dying though. Getting
| cancer while you're still young enough to have fun and
| enjoy life and spending a lot of time in pain and going
| from one doctor to another isn't really how I want to go.
| mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote:
| You say that as if there's a choice when really there
| isn't. It's fundamentally out of my control what kills
| me. Hell, the cancer could be growing already, or the
| clot or aneurism. And the amount of crap you get exposed
| to just drinking the water and breathing the air these
| days, not to mention the food you eat. You could try to
| minimise carcinogens but in the end it's basically a lost
| battle unless you completely isolate yourself from
| society and the outside world.
|
| Also, if I do get terminal cancer I'm not doing those
| cycles of pointless chemo and radiation. I'll simply live
| on until the cancer becomes too unbearable, at which
| point I'll accept my fate and die.
| Geee wrote:
| Avoiding sunlight is way more deadly than skin cancer, to a
| limit. You should get sun, but not too much.
| pookah wrote:
| [dead]
| Gigachad wrote:
| 15 minutes in the sun is low risk.
| goodpoint wrote:
| Care to provide some scientific evidence?
| plonk wrote:
| Probably not at UV index 6+. Get your sun in the morning or
| late afternoon before the sun becomes too violent.
| Accacin wrote:
| You've obviously not met a British person at the beach.
| bigDinosaur wrote:
| Not a particularly high risk so long as you get suspicious
| skin changes checked out. Melanoma has an incredibly good
| prognosis so long as it's caught early, and unlike most
| cancers you have a very good chance of catching it early with
| adequate vigilance.
| goodpoint wrote:
| That's a whole lot of "if".
| Fricken wrote:
| Suffering and being alive are synonymous
| attemptone wrote:
| Keeping in line with the style of that comment: No, they're
| not.
| Fricken wrote:
| Life is suffering. It's one of the 4 Noble truths of
| Buddhism. Ancient knowledge.
| vaidhy wrote:
| That is a misreading of what was said. Others have
| commented on it before. Life is unsatisfactory is closer to
| what Buddha said. He took great pains to separate physical
| needs from spiritual suffering. His eight fold path as a
| way to achieve nirvana is a solution for one of those
| problems. It does not put food on the table.
| jdietrich wrote:
| The first noble truth posits that dukkha (suffering) is a
| characteristic of existence _in the realm of rebirth_. The
| second, third and fourth noble truths posit that escape
| from dukkha (and therefore escape from the cycle of death
| and rebirth) is possible. "Life is suffering" is a shallow
| misinterpretation of Buddhist theology; Buddhists believe
| that all suffering has an identifiable cause and a known
| remedy.
| Fricken wrote:
| All the big religions offer up some sort of escape plan
| as part of the sales pitch.
|
| I don't believe one can avoid suffering. You can however
| choose your suffering. You can suffer in the service of
| something greater. Or you can suffer meaninglessly, but
| you'll suffer one way or the other.
| bowsamic wrote:
| Just because the Buddha said it, doesn't mean it's right.
| My life is many things as well as suffering. It is no more
| suffering than it is joy or peace. Why emphasise suffering
| specifically?
| attemptone wrote:
| Another mystical text calls life the ultimate rohrschach
| test. You're not making (logical) arguments but rather
| you're showing your hand.
| [deleted]
| jebarker wrote:
| That's not knowledge and they're truths only in name, it's
| philosophy.
| Fricken wrote:
| Casual observation bears out the same truths. What living
| thing doesn't suffer?
| [deleted]
| downvotetruth wrote:
| https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/channelopathy-
| ass...
| jebarker wrote:
| I haven't experienced the consciousness of all living
| things, so I can't make blanket statements.
| brazzy wrote:
| Nearly all living things do not suffer constantly, which
| disproves your original statement.
| stefantalpalaru wrote:
| [dead]
| lawn wrote:
| Ancient belief, not "knowledge" or "truth".
| Xunjin wrote:
| As someone who attempted more than one time, I found interesting
| that's not a common knowledge. Maybe that's why in my country,
| Brazil, it's a "common excuses" from "average people" that a
| person died by suicide is a "coward".
|
| PS: This is anecdotal experience I had talking with people about
| this matter.
| marcodiego wrote:
| The way people in Brazil see suicide is ridiculous:
| https://suicidio.com.br/
| [deleted]
| timcavel wrote:
| [dead]
| kar5pt wrote:
| This seems...kind of obvious? No one just wants to die for
| death's sake. That wouldn't make a ton of sense. People kill
| themselves because they view it as the best of a set of bad
| options.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| speak for yourself
| pookah wrote:
| [dead]
| giantg2 wrote:
| Wow, they completely left out one reason/demographic. For some
| people it's not about the suffering, but about their impact. The
| people who I know who committed suicide were diagnosed with
| alzhiemers or other dementia. They specifically wrote that they
| did not want to be a burden on their family. There's relatively
| little suffering due to the altered mental state (you don't
| really see people who want to commit suicide with these diseases
| once they progress, except in brief moments of clarity).
| totorovirus wrote:
| Lol what a discovery :) I considered committing suicide because
| it felt like there was no way out of this mess. Suicide is more
| like an escape from pain rather than quitting your life.
| antongribok wrote:
| This fits the saying very well:
|
| Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
| thr-nrg wrote:
| [flagged]
| burningoof wrote:
| For those suffering, it isn't always clear that the problem is
| temporary.
|
| The problems pile up until the person feels they are
| insurmountable, permanent. It consumes their entire existence.
|
| In their eyes it's a fair trade: permanent solution to a
| permanent problem.
|
| The trick is convincing them the issue is temporary, which
| basically amounts to solving the underlying problems.
| aetherane wrote:
| Sometimes the problem isn't actually temporary though
| Throw20may23 wrote:
| << Anon for $reasons >>.
|
| As someone that has attempted suicide in the past (some with a
| lot of motivation to get right, obviously failed since I am not a
| ghost-writer <pun intended>) it kinda shocked me that this wasn't
| a more commonly held 'water is wet' as the reason for people to
| try to end their suffering.
|
| Sure, there are some who feign their attempts for various reasons
| but there are those that find a way of acheiving the (at the
| time) welcoming bliss of quiet and silent oblivion, whatever that
| helds or may not hold.
|
| To this day, I reserve the right to decide when, how or even if I
| ever again attempt suicide. That is my right.
|
| I have also seen the impact that suicides have on the ones that
| knew and perhaps cared about the dead person so I am aware of the
| suffering that would echo out from my decision.
|
| As a parent, I am also aware that the chances of a child
| attempting suicide following a parent doing it sky-rocket so -
| ouch.
|
| But ask yourself this before judging.... just how bad would the
| pain in your life have to be that despite all of the above things
| it can still be an actual option because the suffering is so
| unbearable... Walk a mile in a mans Shoes as they say, YMMV.
|
| Please note: I am not currently suicidal and am doing really well
| as per last shrink so High-Five etc. Just wanted to add my 0.02c
| to the thread.
| temp0826 wrote:
| >> Sure, there are some who feign their attempts for various
| reasons but there are those that find a way of acheiving the
| (at the time) welcoming bliss of quiet and silent oblivion,
| whatever that helds or may not hold.
|
| It makes me profoundly sad that more people aren't aware of
| 5-MeO-DMT and the symbolic death (and the total bliss) you have
| during the experience.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| 1/3 of Canadians support assisted suiciding homeless people or
| people who will lose their home. Canada finds death the most
| appropriate solution to suffering. Doctors and administrative
| staff are making the recommendation directly based on financial
| circumstance. It's a program the govt spends money on ad
| marketing and growth. Sounds more like a failure of the 'state
| and capital' flavor society to me than something to respect
| (which I have none for either, regardless of whether one of their
| policies at a point in time is a net utilitarian improvement or
| not).
| bluescrn wrote:
| Is that more or less compassionate than leaving them to die on
| the streets?
| midnightblue wrote:
| How about not letting them die on the streets? I thought
| Canada was a society.
| ufo wrote:
| Some psychologists say that suffering is a necessary component,
| but not the only one. Also important are a feeling of being
| burdensome to others, and overcomming the natural instinct to not
| harm oneself.
|
| Many people who die by suicide wrongly believe that the world
| would be better without them. This not only feeds the suffering,
| but also puts them in a position to overcome the natural
| instincts against self harm. These instincts are also why
| repeated suicide attempts or access to more lethal methods of
| suicide increase the risk.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpersonal_theory_of_suic...
| j3s wrote:
| SUFFERING IS A PART OF LIVING.
|
| as someone who has lost many friends and family members to
| suicide, articles like this feel so naive.
|
| at their funerals, there's always a person saying "let's remember
| them how they lived, not how they suffered"
|
| no. their suffering was a big part of their lived experience, and
| i will remember it forever. people who want to commit suicide do
| want to stop living. sometimes it's because there is so much
| suffering in their life they can't take it - sometimes it's
| something else.
|
| thousands of years ago, people knew that life _is_ suffering.
| it's so disgusting to me to pretend that life and suffering
| aren't intertwined.
|
| some people can't take it, and that's fine. we didn't ask to be
| here. but when those people go, let's not falsify our memories of
| them because we don't personally like the idea of suffering.
|
| so infantalizing.
| Centigonal wrote:
| Edit: I re-read your comment, and I think I was responding to
| what I thought you said, not what you were actually saying, so
| I'm rewriting my response.
|
| You're right that suffering is an essential and inevitable part
| of life. We shouldn't erase the suffering that informs people's
| identities just because it makes us uncomfortable.
|
| The amount of suffering in life varies from person to person
| and moment to moment, and can be influenced to some degree. For
| some (but not all) suicidal people, it is possible to make
| changes (different life situation, therapy, better connections,
| removal of stressors) to reduce suffering to a bearable level
| so that they want to keep on living and are no longer suicidal.
| comeondude wrote:
| As somebody who have been in and out mental hospitals, this is
| very familiar.
|
| At one point in my early twenties, I was literally thinking about
| killing myself every single waking second.
|
| Finally I decided to throw in the towel, and got around to
| planning my end.
|
| Sat there, ran through various scenarios in my head. All the way
| up to putting the gun in my mouth and pulling the trigger.
|
| My imagination always terminated in blackness. Nothingness.
|
| Then I realized I didn't want to die, but didn't want to live
| this way. And promised myself that I would do everything in my
| power to heal.
|
| It took me about 15 years to get where I am now. Stable and
| mostly at peace with myself, but it was an arduous and painful
| journey - with many terrifying moments where I couldn't see a way
| out.
|
| I'm incredibly grateful that I managed to figure it out and I
| wouldn't wish that agony on anybody.
| JacKTrocinskI wrote:
| I'm really glad to hear you made it through such a challenging
| time in your life. Your strength and determination are
| incredibly inspiring. I'm curious to know more about your
| healing process. Did you work on identifying and addressing the
| root causes of your pain, perhaps through therapy or
| counseling? Sometimes, personal issues can stem from our
| familial relationships. Did you find that to be the case in
| your journey? I'm interested to learn more about how you
| managed to overcome your struggles and achieve the peace you
| have today.
| comeondude wrote:
| Thank you.
|
| It was a long winding journey. Generational trauma is
| definitely a real thing.
|
| I tried a lot of things, from therapy to drugs to sex clubs,
| was grasping at straws, trying to understand what was
| happening.
|
| It was a complicated and personal journey, but my biggest
| breakthrough occurred when I surrendered to the healing
| powers of my body and spirit.
|
| I had to just stop and do nothing, and just allow all the
| hurt, shame, and fear come up to be processed. My ego fought
| like hell to keep them suppressed.
|
| My mind was a storm of self-abuse, thoughtforms that told me
| that I was worthless and to be destroyed. I had to learn how
| to accept them and return to my heart (my emotional center)
| and just practice sitting with my feelings. Over time these
| thoughts dissipated, and I saw that they were driven by
| unrecognized emotional energy and signals from my body.
|
| I was fortunate that I managed to create a situation that
| allowed me to lie fallow for a long time to heal.
|
| There were many layers, but the crux of my issues was being
| severed from my authentic self. This happened because I grew
| up in a household with a lot of emotional abuse and coercive
| control, to the point where I suppressed myself and created a
| persona to survive.
|
| If you read accounts of cult-abuse survivors, it's like their
| real self is always trying to break through but they have
| been trained or mislead into ignoring themselves.
|
| My experience was very similar.
|
| I could write more about this, but pivotal points were
| recognizing that I had agency, learning how to trust my body
| and emotions over my ego, and understanding that at our core,
| we are love.
|
| Had to learn how to love myself unconditionally basically; a
| constant practice.
| comeondude wrote:
| And a big part of the self-love journey was learning how to
| truly take care of myself. How to eat properly, how to
| rest, cutting out toxic people from my life, becoming clear
| with my boundaries, forgiving myself, accepting my pace of
| progress, and so on.
|
| Once I recognized the pain in my heart, I just kept
| returning to it, and over time that guided me towards the
| truth.
| ethanbond wrote:
| Thank you for sharing and I'm glad you made it/are making it
| every day.
| dgb23 wrote:
| This is the type of achievement I find incredibly awesome and
| inspiring.
|
| It's overcoming oppressive challenges and build up not just
| from nothing, but in a way from a negative, draining state.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Thanks for sharing your harrowing journey.
|
| The part that resonates with me is the need to see a third
| alternative between death and the status quo. It is easy to
| feel trapped and without agency, and this leads to a downward
| spiral. In my experience and opinion, the key to finding a way
| out is reclaiming agency and belief that you have the power to
| change. Willpower is a tricky thing. If you think you have it
| you do, and if you don't think you have it you don't. It is
| largely a mystery to me how people go from one to the other.
|
| In my case, one thing that helped is realizing I had choices
| and wasn't as trapped as I _felt_. I could leave my family, and
| my job if I wanted. I could always quit it all and live in a
| shack somewhere reading books. Just knowing I had the power of
| choice and wasn 't trapped gave me the strength to make
| progress.
|
| I now think trained helplessness and philosophies that view
| humans _only_ as a product of their environment are extremely
| dangerous.
| blooalien wrote:
| Wish I could say this headline didn't hit home. Not gonna commit
| suicide, but I sure do _fantasize_ about dying every waking
| moment. Living in constant pain for over a decade 'll do that to
| ya... Rather be non-existent than exist in a state of such misery
| as to make _living_ genuinely impossible.
| GordonS wrote:
| Hey, fellow chronic pain guy here, though "only" 8 years and
| counting so far! I have CFS and Small Fibre Neuropathy, which
| pain-wise means I have constant neuropathic and muscular pain
| in my limbs.
|
| Unless someone has lived with chronic pain, they won't be able
| to understand what it does to your mental health. Living in
| constant pain is hard - _fucking_ hard. I 've really struggled,
| and if I didn't have a family, without a doubt I'd be dead by
| now. Even with my family, I spent a lot of time fantasising
| about suicide, and one time I almost did it without l even
| thinking about it. It also turned me into a pretty horrible
| person, who slowly pushed away many friends, and made life
| difficult for my family.
|
| Thankfully, I'm finally coming to terms with it, and I now have
| meds that actually help. I use an opioid and ketamine. The
| opioid helps a little with the pain, as does the ketamine - but
| really, the ketamine improves my mood, a lot.
|
| For the past couple of years I've also been using cannabis -
| this has made a _huge_ difference to my mental health, general
| well-being, and family life! Having the ability to be
| essentially pain free every evening after hitting a nice heavy
| indica is... amazing, in a way that only someone who 'd been in
| constant pain for _years_ could understand.
|
| If you have access to legalised cannabis wherever you are, I
| can't recommend it highly enough. Christ, even if it's not
| legal, it's worth thinking about.
| Mezzie wrote:
| > Unless someone has lived with chronic pain, they won't be
| able to understand what it does to your mental health. Living
| in constant pain is hard - fucking hard.
|
| And specifically chronic pain that will _never_ get better
| and can only get worse. A lot of the platitudes and reasoning
| we use to get people to not commit suicide don 't apply. It
| can get better? Bitch, I have _Multiple Sclerosis_. Yes,
| hopefully science can do something about it, but right now it
| 's an _incurable, progressive_ illness.
|
| I primarily stay alive from a combination of spite and the
| ability to be a living cautionary/memento mori tale: I did
| everything 'right' and this still happened. It can happen to
| you. Work as hard as you like, make all the right choices...
| you can still fail. Have some grace or be eaten alive when
| you fall.
| Energiesustaine wrote:
| [flagged]
| candiddevmike wrote:
| Related, is it difficult all over the US to find mental health
| resources? Wait times for counselors and therapists are months+.
| Additionally, insurance seems to not cover mental health stuff
| well if at all, if you're lucky to get an appointment it seems
| you're paying out of pocket.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Yes. Last time, it took me 5 months to replace a psychiatrist.
| I had to wait almost a month to get on waiting list.
|
| There is no online sign up. It's all by phone. Most of the time
| , you call and it goes to voice mail. You leave a message and
| never get called back.
|
| The few times I have gotten a person, most of them said they
| weren't taking new patients.
|
| If you miss more than one appointment without calling the day
| before, some places drop you.
|
| Living in the US, sometimes it feels like I'm not worth keeping
| around unless someone else can profit from my existence.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| I mean, your experience in the US is exactly like mine in
| European public care system looking for a psychiatrist or
| other more niche doctor: Multi month long waiting lists,
| doctors who are full and don't take any new patients, needing
| to go private out of pocket. Even the good private ones are
| booked weeks into the future.
| vaidhy wrote:
| But it is the private health care in US. There is no other
| option unlike you who can choose to go private. And I would
| guess that your out of pocket payment will not cause you to
| go to bankruptcy.
| fancyfish wrote:
| Yes, many (if not most?) providers stopped taking insurance for
| various reasons. The rates provided by insurers are a fraction
| of the rates they can get charging out of pocket. And insurers
| try to shorten therapy sessions, or ask why a patient still
| needs therapy, etc.
|
| I don't know why mental health specifically has these issues
| out of all the medical professions though.
| vrglvrglvrgl wrote:
| [dead]
| effingwewt wrote:
| Crazy this showed up today.
|
| I do this 'existential calculus' quite often. I also sometimes
| wonder what the point is when it just gets worse every year.
|
| My therapist told me it's because I'm a _survivor_ , it's what I
| _do_. But what 's the point of surviving? At what point do I get
| to _live_ , much less be happy?
|
| She pointed out it would be throwing away all my battle scars,
| all the effort I'd put in to get this far. Just think about how
| much better I'd feel when it _did_ get better and I came out the
| other side.
|
| I pointed out it sounded like sunk cost fallacy to me.
|
| He next question was whether I was an organ donor. I've not
| spoken to anyone since.
|
| I was thinking about Chris Cornell and Chester Bennington
| yesterday. If they couldn't get past their pain, what hope have
| I?
|
| It's a day to day struggle, but also one I know I'm going to lose
| one day. I completely see why people turn to hard drugs, I
| consider opioids daily almost. The only reason I don't try them
| is I feel I'd rather skip the addiction and _even worse_ pain and
| just fast-forward to the end. Again, the existential calculus.
| harlanji wrote:
| > He next question was whether I was an organ donor.
|
| That's dark. I've been homeless for 5 years (including working
| full time and having never been an addict). I'm very healthy so
| for a while I felt like I could be targeted by black marketeers
| like organ harvesters.
|
| > I completely see why people turn to hard drugs, I consider
| opioids daily almost.
|
| I joke that if I were to give up and become an addict at least
| someone would help me because it'd be their job. I've always
| been a hard worker and hate being unemployed, I'm obviously not
| waiting around for handouts. The situation is just that
| impossible to solve, "no man is an island" except the homeless
| and similarly beat down people I guess including the ones who
| turn to suicide. It was humbling to ask for help for the first
| time in my life and be preyed upon or abandoned at best.
|
| Never imagined myself here. Will never consider suicide, but
| the math and pressure to get rid of myself from my relatives
| and former friends is obvious. I always thought I had a support
| system but indeed what "they" say is true: everyone is in it
| for themselves. I constantly look for ways to be valuable to
| others, but on a desert island and sometimes literally starving
| there are few opportunities.
|
| Helping others is the key, while not being exploited by
| predators.
| tpoacher wrote:
| My apologies if this is an inappropriate question (if you
| feel this is the case, please feel free to tell me so and to
| bugger off etc).
|
| Mind if I ask the "how" question? Was there a particular
| 'event' or chain of events that led to your being homeless?
|
| For context, I am researching / hoping to research "hospital
| admissions" as a precipitating event of (first) homelessness,
| so I am interested in people's lived experience with that
| topic (as well as practical pointers on how I could
| materialize this research in more practical terms).
|
| > I joke that if I were to give up and become an addict at
| least someone would help me because it'd be their job. I've
| always been a hard worker and hate being unemployed.
|
| I could totally see how that might be the case. This has
| "Shirky Principle" written all over it, doesn't it? It's
| weird how the system is wired like that... In fact, that's
| partly my motivation for this research, actually; the idea is
| that, if a first (and otherwise avoidable) episode of
| homelessness could be detected and avoided prior to
| discharge, that would be much more beneficial than allowing
| people into that mess in the first place and then having to
| prioritise who "deserves" the most help after the fact.
| effingwewt wrote:
| I'm glad you're still chugging along. Until you need real
| help you've no idea who your real friends are, I've found.
| Which is why I feel like I've no true friends left.
|
| From experience I know how hard it is being down and out
| _and_ without a support system, so I really hope you 're able
| to find a solution.
|
| I know every single homeless resource I ever tried didn't
| work. They just passed my name from non-profit to non-profit,
| set up interviews only to be passed again. Literally not one
| of them was ever of any help.
|
| Wish I could offer a hand, but I've nothing anymore.
|
| Really hope you make it out, it's something I'd wish on no
| one.
| benj111 wrote:
| Do you count yourself as suicidal? This rings true to me, I
| wouldn't describe myself as suicidal though.
| cat_plus_plus wrote:
| Technically correct, practically a useless distinction? It's not
| like "stop suffering, keep living" solutions grow on a tree. One
| has to contend with:
|
| - Irreversible or hard to reverse brain damage/dysfunction. It
| doesn't matter if the cause is traumatic experiences, innate
| conditions or substance abuse, effects are equally hard to remedy
|
| - Irreversible or hard to reverse physical health problems
|
| - Low social capital at late stage in life. If someone wants to
| have loving friends and family at 50 starting from being lonely
| and estranged, are they really going to have same results as
| someone who has been building these up from childhood?
|
| - Financial constraints and difficulty of learning new marketable
| skills in adulthood
|
| - Clash between reality of surrounding society and expectations
| that are a deeply ingrained part of one's character
|
| The solutions proposed seem to be drugs (either sanctioned ones
| like SSRIs or increasingly street ones like ecstasy and
| mushrooms) and talk therapy premised on one having a Freudian
| complex in one's head rather than experiencing genuine hardship.
| I am not saying any of these are totally useless. Even having a
| few drinks gives one a holiday from endless gloom and can spur
| one to form social connections or reach conclusions that are
| still meaningful while sober. But on the whole, I am not sold on
| treating people like houseplants who are considered diseased if
| not perfectly happy just sitting around with basic needs provided
| for. I would rather see more effort to improve human lives in
| more fundamental ways. And, as a last resort, acceptance that for
| some it was really not worth it at the end rather than labeling
| them insane to assuage our own discomfort and avoid questions of
| our own responsibilities
| smcg wrote:
| It's not a useless distinction. People downplay other's
| suicidal ideations all the time because they underestimate
| other people's pain or are unsympathetic to it. Those people
| need to know that this is everyone's problem.
| cat_plus_plus wrote:
| That would be nice, but "A Man named Otto" is fiction, not a
| documentary. It's even more far fetched to suppose that
| entire society is going to change than to expect that any
| single person will pull themselves out of the abyss by their
| own shoestrings or using magic potions cooked up by Pfizer.
| People want all kind of things like life without suffering or
| drinking without hangovers, but they also come to realize
| that reality has limited options.
| [deleted]
| harimau777 wrote:
| I've heard someone describe suicidal ideation as like being
| halfway through a multiplayer game where you are getting stomped:
| It's not that you want to rage quit, it's just that the outcome
| feels inevitable so you wish you could skip to the end. Or like
| turning off a ball game early when your team is down by an
| insurmountable points at the end of the third quarter.
|
| For at least some people, it may not be that they want to die,
| rather it may be that they predict 30+ more years of an
| unsatisfying life and wish that they could just skip to the end.
| hasbot wrote:
| My religious sister is anxious to move on to Heaven. She's not
| suicidal but at 60 tired/bored of her dull life. Since Heaven
| is the end goal she doesn't have much motivation in enhancing
| her life.
| guerrilla wrote:
| > For at least some people, it may not be that they want to
| die, rather it may be that they predict 30+ more years of an
| unsatisfying life and wish that they could just skip to the
| end.
|
| This is exactly it. It's surprising that people can't see this
| as obvious.
| colmvp wrote:
| Exactly.
|
| Sometimes you play a game, and you realize, shit I invested
| points in these attributes but upon reading strategy guides, I
| realize I fucked up the distribution and there's no way to
| reset my character. What is the solution? Abandon the
| character.
| mahathu wrote:
| No shit..
| Madmallard wrote:
| I don't really buy that it is like... strictly that desire. I
| think something is different in their physiology or psychology. I
| know people who were so sick they're barely staying alive and
| their lives are absolute miserable nonsense and they even
| verbally express not wanting to deal with it but they still just
| have self-care habits that keep themselves stable. Maybe it is
| something like that's a precursor to losing those habits but I
| don't know I've seen the behavior for multiple years.
| Andy_G11 wrote:
| Shawshank Redemption has a great line: 'Get busy living, or get
| busy dying.' Act - even taking a walk can make a difference.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| This is something that I have had some personal experience with.
| I've known quite a few suicides, and survivors of the suicides of
| others.
|
| Very much a "walk a mile in a man's shoes" kind of thing.
| Everyone has opinions on the matter, until it hits them. Then,
| they have personal experience (not just an opinion).
|
| It sucks. In some cases, I can see why someone would want to end
| it all. In others, like this one[0], I find it doubly tragic, as
| there are proven alternative solutions (I personally know _many_
| people that were once far worse off than that gentleman, and are
| now doing quite well).
|
| When we are in a singularity of pain, it seems like the suffering
| will never stop, and we can convince ourselves there's no escape.
| In some cases, we're right, but other times, not so much.
|
| It's a permanent "solution" to what is often a temporary problem.
|
| [0] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/man-
| holland-...
| louwrentius wrote:
| And often there is no other solution and I'm very happy that
| people in my country have a choice about this. I would not want
| to see others suffer so that I won't suffer their loss.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _I would not want to see others suffer so that I won't
| suffer their loss._
|
| The world being what it is, it's increasingly the opposite:
| others left or encouraged even to commit suicide (assisted or
| otherwise) so people dont have to help and support them.
|
| In Canada it's increasingly becoming a trend for poor people
| to commit assisted suicide, not because they have some
| incurable disease and pain, but because they can't get by and
| are depressed by it.
| louwrentius wrote:
| The Canada example is not about suicide at all but about
| the impact of a society without a safety net. The issue
| isn't the suicides, it's almost a logical response to a
| situation that is objectively terrible without a
| possibility or getting better.
| coldtea wrote:
| It's connected though, when assisted suicide there, is
| not just legal, but increasingly accepted, nornalized, or
| even encouraged as an invididual solution to not having a
| safety net.
|
| So, the cause of the problem isn't the suicides - but
| they are offered (and used) as a way-out of it. This
| eases the burden on the state to do something to solve
| the root problem (why improve their condition, when they
| just off themselves and they wont be bothering us with
| their need for help anymore?).
| louwrentius wrote:
| To be frank, I don't buy those stories about people being
| nudged to commit suicide. In NL we have euthanasia for
| decades and the system works well. I think those scare
| stories originate from politically / religiously tainted
| sources.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/woman-with-chemical-
| sensitivit...
|
| > Woman with chemical sensitivities chose medically-
| assisted death after failed bid to get better housing
|
| https://www.liveaction.org/news/euthanasia-unjust-social-
| con...
|
| > a recent poll found that 27 percent of Canadians polled
| strongly or moderately agree that euthanasia is
| acceptable for suffering caused by "poverty" and 28
| percent strongly or moderately agree that killing by
| doctors is acceptable for suffering caused by
| homelessness.
|
| > And in the context of medical issues, the authors claim
| that this includes killing patients _who would not want
| to die if they could access proper treatment_ (emphasis
| theirs)
|
| > So, socialized medicine fails, and a splendid answer to
| the problem for patients in need is euthanasia. Do you
| see now why I call euthanasia/assisted suicide
| "abandonment?"
| mthoms wrote:
| While this case is indeed controversial and worthy of
| examining... I'm sceptical of "liveaction.org" as a
| source because it describes itself thusly: "Live Action
| News is pro-life news and commentary from a pro-life
| perspective."
|
| Nothing wrong with that of course, but I'd hardly
| consider it an authoritative source.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| This was a commentary piece which quoted (to comment on)
| other sources.
|
| Almost everyone talking about this topic is at least
| biased, and generally (what's-the-word for "motivated to
| convince others as to their point-of-view"?).
| mthoms wrote:
| Upon closer inspection, it's an exact reprint of from an
| article from "National Review" which is a famously
| conservative organization.
|
| >This was a commentary piece which quoted (to comment on)
| other sources.
|
| Understood. I just thought I'd point out the potential
| for bias because it isn't obvious at a quick read. One of
| the great things about HN (IMHO) is that people tend to
| discuss things from a more scientific perspective than a
| religious or ideological one.
|
| More to the point, there is no link to this study cited
| in the very first paragraph. As a Canadian I've never
| heard of this study so was interested to take a look.
| Googling a bit found the results and further discussion
| on why the National Review interpretation of it is pretty
| dishonest.
|
| Sorry, but this is a terrible source for HN.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _Upon closer inspection, it 's an exact reprint of from
| an article from "National Review" which is a famously
| conservative organization._
|
| Conservative? It must be wrong then! Everybody knows that
| only liberal sources can have correct viewpoints!
|
| > More to the point, there is no link to this study cited
| in the very first paragraph. As a Canadian I've never
| heard of this study so was interested to take a look.
| Googling a bit found the results and further discussion
| on why the National Review interpretation of it is pretty
| dishonest.
|
| Here is the study:
|
| https://researchco.ca/wp-
| content/uploads/2023/05/Tables_MAiD...
|
| The relevant question:
|
| "At this point, only an adult with a grievous and
| irremediable medical condition can seek medical
| assistance in dying in Canada. Do you agree or disagree
| with allowing adults in Canada to seek medical assistance
| in dying because of the following reasons?"
|
| (a) Poverty Agreeing 27% (Strongly agree 11% + Moderately
| agree 16%)
|
| (b) Homelessness Agreeing 28% (Strongly agree 11% +
| Moderately agree 17%)
|
| > _found the results and further discussion on why the
| National Review interpretation of it is pretty
| dishonest._
|
| Dishomest "interpretation", eh? Let's focus on the
| shocking raw results then, with the number agreeing with
| those two cases being above 1%?
|
| (Sure, one might expect a 1% of hardcore scum being OK
| with the poor getting assistance to off themselves to
| solve their poverty/homelessness in any society. Maybe
| 2%. But not even Thacher would expect an above 5%
| agreement on that).
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| This particular issue is difficult to discuss from a
| scientific perspective, because basically the only non-
| opinion (i.e. ideological) questions that can be asked
| are: whether making assisted suicide legal increases or
| decreases total suicides, and what are the economic
| impacts of assisted suicide legalization. Everything else
| about assisted suicide is ideological or ideological
| driven (at minimum, the balance between antipathies of
| death compared to pain).
|
| Everyone talking about this is biased. Some lie or
| exaggerate, and this is important to point out, but every
| source of information cherry-picks what they choose to
| highlight.
| robotresearcher wrote:
| What's the basis of this strong claim?
|
| Some people are opposed to suicide under any
| circumstances because it is proscribed by their religion.
| They have been told by an authority that it's wrong. They
| hold a strong bias against it.
|
| For people without that view, why would they be biased?
| Are they not free to come to their own conclusion? Having
| an opinion does not preclude a good faith argument. And
| holding an opinion contrary to someone's dogma does not
| make an opinion dogmatic.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| > For people without that view, why would they be biased?
|
| - Fear of pain
|
| - Fear of old age, or aging in general
|
| - Fear of debility
|
| - Fear of loss of autonomy
|
| - Desire for liberty to do what they want without input
| from others who may be affected by their decisions
|
| Most people don't opine on issues unless they feel
| strongly about them. A strong feeling is a bias. There
| are few scientific parameters on the issues of
| suicide/euthanasia/MAiD, but it's fraught with
| ideological parameters, and basically all of the
| discussion about it comes down to ideology-based claims
| (with the few fact-based claims used as singular
| arguments to support a position).
|
| I'm an atheist who values life in large part because I
| don't believe in an afterlife. I find pain unpleasant,
| but don't particularly fear it (at this point in my
| life). I fear the social pressures that government
| sanctioning and assistance with suicide brings. I fear
| the decisions that would be made about me, if I'm
| incapacitated, by people with different moral standards,
| in a societal framework that encourages them to make
| those calls for me. I fear the repercussions of
| "me"-centric (egocentric) social policies, given the
| power differentials between various individuals. These
| are my biases.
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| people seek alcohol in pathological amounts to numb a pain they
| carry around. you don't know what pain that was for him and
| what caused it. not everybody stumbles into alcoholism out of
| habit, partying too much or work related stress.
| fuzzfactor wrote:
| I'm no doctor but I know they seldom have actual
| pharmaceutical _cures_ , however they can often provide
| worthwhile _treatments_ which are very effective and truly
| make life more worth living.
|
| Not always through medication.
|
| Sometimes things work out for the best without doctors
| involved, also with medication or not.
|
| I just have a lifetime of working (as carefully as possible
| to minimize harmful exposure) with _very_ toxic materials.
|
| Beverage Grade alcohol is just one of them.
|
| People widely accept that alcohol is truly a substance that
| can be abused, but it has never been scientifically sound to
| classify it as a "drug".
|
| It is simply a toxic solvent like many others, it's primary
| effect is not to kill pain, more so just to kill, usually
| germs but depending on the amount applied, all life forms
| eventually.
|
| Most will agree that one of the additional characteristics of
| a solvent is to accomplish dilution of some kind or another.
| Maybe not unlike weakening a strong pigment with paint
| thinner, solvents in the bloodstream seem to weaken an
| otherwise strong mental state. Sometimes also not so strong
| to begin with. I think it's also well known people like it
| anyway, some choose alcohol, others paint thinner, sometimes
| depending on availability sometimes not. Ideally whether
| painting or not the solvent dissipates and things end up as
| intended.
|
| Toxic materials will always have dangers which sometimes
| accumulate more than others, and need to be carefully
| balanced against non-toxic approaches.
|
| As we have seen, the overwhelming number of toxic choices can
| seem so encompassing and exclusive to alternatives.
| cppenjoyer wrote:
| [flagged]
| vanviegen wrote:
| > In others, like this one[0], I find it doubly tragic, as
| there are proven alternative solutions
|
| "eight years of help and 21 stints in rehab" sounds like they
| tried pretty hard to find a better solution. Not everyone can
| be cured.
| throwawayadvsec wrote:
| The first step would be to understand that rehab is not the
| solution to any kind of problem.
|
| Rehab is about making a lot of money, not healing people,
| they benefit from relapsing, they have zero incentive to help
| people.
| pixl97 wrote:
| Commenting under you on the entire subthread here....
|
| I think this is a two part problem. If you talk to a
| particular therapist/counselor it would be very rare to
| find one that doesn't want to see you get better. In
| general the people at this level are empathetic and do
| care.
|
| But above that there is a 'rehab system'. You start moving
| away from the people that want to see other people get
| better towards that people that want to see the system make
| as much as much money as possible no matter the cost.
|
| We talk about systems like this all the time here on HN
| with the term 'Molochs'. Systems where the individual
| optimum would be X, where X is things people actually like
| and think are good. Instead the system optimizes towards Y,
| where Y is far worse outcome for individuals, and
| individuals are seemingly powerless to stop the system from
| optimizing on Y.
|
| https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-
| moloch/
| denton-scratch wrote:
| Rehab helps about a quarter of the people it treats -
| provided you accept that they'll probably need multiple
| rounds of treatment. It's wicked to encourage the belief
| that a single round of rehab, followed by lots of
| willpower, is likely to solve problems.
| Retric wrote:
| Single rounds of rehab do sometimes work, and longer
| sessions have better changes. Willpower is part of it,
| but often completely changing one's social circle is
| critical.
| d0gsg0w00f wrote:
| Cleaning houses is about making money too. Eventually
| you're going to be ready to keep the house clean after they
| leave.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| This is a typical overly cynical and overly online take. I
| think it would be dispelled by talking to or being friends
| with a single person that works in rehab
| currymj wrote:
| there are certain places where a lot of dubious,
| predatory drug rehab facilities have popped up in the
| last decade, since health insurance now has to pay for
| it, yet it's not quite regulated like other healthcare.
| if you see a lot of these it can make you very cynical.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| I'm sure bad things happen, but to embrace all or nothing
| cynicism is to reject reality.
|
| It is pathological in it's own right to paint the world
| with such broad and biased brushstrokes.
| vlunkr wrote:
| You could apply this to countless professions.
|
| Plumbing is about making a lot of money, they benefit from
| you pipes leaking again.
|
| We just have to hope that human beings actually care about
| their work.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Like I said, I personally know folks that have been clean for
| decades, and went through worse. I'll be hanging out with a
| bunch, tonight.
|
| Addiction is a very strange problem. Lots of folks have
| _opinions_ on it, but I have _experience_ with it.
|
| And that's about all I'll say on the matter.
| deelly wrote:
| I don't want to be arrogant or looks like moron, but how
| can you know that people that you know "went through
| worse"? How can you measure it? I`m really curious, because
| all my life I live with understanding that there no way to
| measure other people feeling, emotions, suffering.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| I think the point is that the critical differences are on
| the inside, not on the outside.
|
| People can go through worse experiences on the outside
| and recover and overcome.
|
| This points to the somewhat obvious reality that how
| people handle and respond to their environmental
| conditions is a critical factor in outcomes.
|
| Sometimes you have to fix the internal root of feelings,
| emotions, and suffering. You can believe the difference
| IS the person, without being overly judgmental. In fact,
| realizing that person themselves needs to be changed is
| often a key part of recovery.
| cat_plus_plus wrote:
| Sure, it's possible for someone who went to war and ended
| up killing a family of civilians to recover, overcome and
| lead happy and fulfilled lives henceforth. Does it mean
| that another soldier struggling with constant guilt and
| nightmares is defective and in the need of fixing? Our
| justice system imposes death penalty for murder. What if
| someone is truly convinced, on rational bases, that they
| have committed a murder, but in the circumstances where
| justice doesn't act? Are they acting insane by taking a
| matter in their own hands?
|
| Now let's take another person who NEEDS to be surrounded
| by love and belonging and ends up estranged from family
| and devoid of friends, living alone in an apartment at
| the age of 50? Are you suggesting that this person needs
| to be fixed to not intensely crave those things? Or that
| efforts to build these up at their age are likely to be
| successful in today's society? Just what physical,
| emotional and financial resources is anyone else willing
| to contribute towards this person's well-being, other
| than pumping them full of numbing drugs?
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| _> Or that efforts to build these up at their age are
| likely to be successful in today 's society?_
|
| I've seen that happen -literally- hundreds, if not
| thousands, of times.
|
| It's usually difficult. Like, _really_ difficult, but
| sometimes, it 's well worth the effort. We can often help
| each other through the rough bits.
|
| I've known a few folks that have done pretty awful things
| (not getting into detail), and have recovered. Many, work
| hard to help others to recover.
|
| Love, charity, empathy, and generosity are very powerful.
|
| There was a book written by Richard Adams ( _Watership
| Down_ ), called _Shardik_ [0]. It's about redemption.
| Sort of like the Ashoka myth[1]. Not a unique trope.
|
| It's never too late to recover. In many cases, we may not
| climb "as high" as we once were, but are much happier. In
| other cases, it's the opposite.
|
| I know a chap that wanted to put the park bench he slept
| on, in the garden of his mansion. He couldn't find it,
| though, as the city had replaced them, by that time.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shardik
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka
| cat_plus_plus wrote:
| Oh sure, I know people have rebuilt their lives in 50s.
| But there is luck and anecdotes and there is prevailing
| reality. When something is difficult, it requires
| physical and emotional stamina to overcome. At some
| point, one may be unable to handle hundreds of rejections
| after trying to make a single casual friend in a space of
| years. Not lazy, or insufficiently motivated, just not
| able to, period. And that assumes, for example, enough
| financial independence and free time from work to try in
| the first place. I am not ready to declare people who
| give up defective or put all the responsibility at their
| feet, rather than society in general or plain bad luck.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Well, I can only speak for myself, and for those in my
| peer group, but we _regularly_ help each other to rebuild
| our lives.
|
| It takes a community. It's not usually something we can
| do, on our own.
|
| Long story, and not one for press, radio, and film.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| My point is pretty simple. It is that the critical
| differences are on the inside, not on the outside.
|
| I wasn't taking a position on what people should do with
| this information, but I think that understanding the fact
| is important if you want to change _anything_ , or simply
| understand how the world works.
|
| In the context of depression, I think it is up to the
| individual if they want to change. In your example, the
| relevant question is if the lonely 50 year old wants to
| change. As long as they aren't hurting me, I am fine with
| them choosing either option. What, if anything, I am
| willing to do the help, would depend on if or how much I
| care for the individual.
|
| What do you think about your questions? It seems like you
| have on opinion you aren't stating.
| cat_plus_plus wrote:
| My opinion is that in the end I don't think really
| wanting a change is enough for most people in sad social
| circumstances. They simply do not have the stamina, the
| skills or the opportunities to get out of the rut.
|
| For example, I have a much more modest desire to have a
| shared hobby with is common and not expensive or
| difficult to pursue and a group of friends (casual to
| start with) to go and do that in free time. I have been
| at it for a year, taking classes, asking classmates and
| coworkers to join me. Not. A. Single. Luck.
|
| Now, I have family, successful career, financial freedom,
| enough health to be active, no serious character flaws
| that would tax friendships. Are you telling me a fat and
| bitter guy who have been living alone long enough to be
| rusty in social graces is going to suddenly have willing
| friend material, let alone romantic prospects?
|
| Personally I am not going to judge him or say he should
| have just tried harder. You?
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| >My opinion is that in the end I don't think really
| wanting a change is enough for most people in sad social
| circumstances. They simply do not have the stamina, the
| skills or the opportunities to get out of the rut.
|
| I would agree that it often isn't enough by itself. My
| thinking is more along the the lines that it is a
| _necessary_ prerequisite, but not always _sufficient_ by
| itself. Nothing in this life is guaranteed.
|
| Im not interested in judging some random stranger. Maybe
| they should have tried harder, maybe they should have
| tried something else. Maybe it would have worked, maybe
| it wouldn't. However, I know if they dont _try_ , then
| they have no chance.
|
| My advice to a friend or someone I cared for would be
| different. You can't let your happiness be contingent of
| factors outside your control. If you can't make yourself
| happy, you are extremely unlikely to find someone or
| something else to do it for you. If you don't like who
| you are, then you need to start there because you cant
| run from yourself. The bad news is that it is your
| problem to fix, and the good news is that it is your
| problem to fix. Success is not guaranteed, but these are
| baseline facts you need to accept if you want to have a
| chance at change.
|
| You cant force someone to be your friend, let alone a
| romantic partner.
| nazgulsenpai wrote:
| I think you've really hit the nail on the head here. I
| think substance abuse is often treated as the underlying
| root problem when its just a symptom of a much deeper
| trauma or mental health problem. The lifestyle changes
| (often) required to deal with the underlying problem
| can't be forced on the person once the stint in rehab
| ends. They are usually right back to their old situation
| with their old friends in their old routines, or they
| stop taking their medicines or any number of things that
| lead to relapse.
| lazyasciiart wrote:
| This is pretty well known. The surviving brother in that
| story even says that his brother was using alcohol to
| deal with anxiety and depression.
| [deleted]
| omginternets wrote:
| I'd appreciate it if you didn't dismiss everybody's
| opinions on the matter for lack of direct experience.
| You're setting things up to avoid debate.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| _" War talk by men who have been in a war is always
| interesting; whereas moon talk by a poet who has not been
| in the moon is likely to be dull."
|
| - Mark Twain_
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| There's enough wiseacring as is.
| kstenerud wrote:
| AKA the "man up" argument. You know people who survived
| worse, thereby somehow invalidating the people who didn't
| make it when they were suffering less. Because you have
| _experience_ with it and can therefore judge others.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Nobody is saying it's easy or that people are invalid
| here.
| kstenerud wrote:
| ChrisMarshallNY is sitting in judgment of the fellow in
| Holland who made use of the euthanasia laws there.
|
| Specifically:
|
| "I find it doubly tragic, as there are proven alternative
| solutions" (judgment)
|
| "I personally know many people that were once far worse
| off than that gentleman, and are now doing quite well"
| (justification that invalidates the man's suffering)
|
| "Lots of folks have opinions on it, but I have
| _experience_ with it. " (Pushing his opinion above
| others, to hammer the judgment home)
|
| He doesn't know Mark Langedijk's mind and soul, and yet
| he feels comfortable desecrating the man's legacy.
| fuzzfactor wrote:
| From what I've seen, I have no doubt Chris means well.
|
| People everywhere have all different things worth living
| for, and of course there are ups & downs that vary across
| time and relationships.
|
| Regardless whether someone has the capacity to be helpful
| or harmful, almost always some judgement needs to be made
| or absolutely neither one will be forthcoming.
|
| And there is always going to be someone else to disagree.
|
| Whether either one is correct I wonder who is supposed to
| be the judge of that?
|
| I see not a word of desecration.
|
| Looking at the story of this particular dying Dutchman,
| seems to me the only thing within reach beforehand were
| quite temporary solutions not capable of overcoming
| relatively longer term problems.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| I don't find that to be overly invalidating or
| judgmental.
|
| There is a difference between saying you think someone
| is/was wrong, and denying their humanity.
| Retric wrote:
| It's the definition of judgmental to say someone is wrong
| like that. You're judging their actions as wrong.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Note that I said overly judgmental. Judgment itself is
| part of the human condition. You can judge an action or
| choice without demeaning or dehumanizing the person. You
| can even do it from a place of empathy understanding and
| compassion.
|
| The idea of that people shouldn't or can't judge any
| choice or action another makes is absurd at face value.
| Retric wrote:
| Except you very rarely have enough information to make
| informed judgements. It's inherently dehumanizing to
| assume the limited information you get from say a news
| article is all that's relevant because it treats them as
| cardboard cutouts of actual people.
|
| It's easy to see a pregnant teen and think poor thoughts
| about them without considering if perhaps they are older
| than you assume and married or they got rapped etc. Read
| about a convict and perhaps they did something horrible
| or perhaps they're wrongly convicted, you simply didn't
| know.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| You have a point, but I would submit that "desecrating
| the man's legacy" is a bit ... shall we say ... _over-
| the-top_ ... rhetoric?
|
| I assume that you have known many, _many_ folks like him
| (and like me), and are comfortable being _extremely_ and
| _overtly_ judgmental.
|
| Too bad. I looked at your GH profile, and I suspect that
| we'd find a lot in common.
| lazyasciiart wrote:
| Hacker News civility makes it more acceptable to use an
| over the top phrase like that, where normally I suspect
| he would have jumped to straightforward ones like "being
| a dick".
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Well, like I have said, before, I always find it
| fascinating, when folks in a professional venue, initiate
| relationships with an attack.
|
| Not exactly sure the advantages it brings, but never a
| dull moment, eh?
| slibhb wrote:
| The idea that any posts in this thread "invalidate's this
| man's suffering" is hyperbole.
|
| Anyway, what's wrong with judgement? Despite some
| people's insistence on it being taboo, there's nothing
| wrong with judging other people's behavior.
| jackvalentine wrote:
| Are you discounting the person who chose euthanasia's
| experience with it by saying that though?
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Nope.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| cesaref wrote:
| I've always found it interesting that addictive behaviour
| is often seen as a virtue by our society if it's about the
| 'right sort of thing' (as far as society is concerned).
|
| We end up considering people as 'dedicated' or 'committed'
| to some cause or other. If they are a workaholic, or pious,
| or a sports superstar, or a concert pianist, chances are
| there is an addictive personality that just happens to have
| gotten attached to a socially acceptable pursuit.
|
| Meanwhile, the same people with a slight twist of fate end
| up in rehab.
| phonescreen_man wrote:
| No such thing as an addictive personality- it was
| invented by the pharmaceutical companies (the term) to
| play down the addictive effects of their drugs, doctors
| were told only people with addictive personalities will
| get hooked on the opioids
| qwytw wrote:
| I can't say much about 'personalities' but it has been
| quite consistently demonstrated that some people are
| genetically predisposed and more likely to become
| addicted to certain substances than others regardless of
| social factors or even (pre-addiction) consumption
| patterns.
| dale_glass wrote:
| That's just utilitarianism?
|
| There's a bunch of things where the morality of what
| you're doing will change depending on a small detail,
| with the main action being essentially the same.
|
| Eg, if you dedicate yourself to exterminating rats with
| dedication and professionalism you'll be a hero, do the
| same thing using the same tools and attitude to cats and
| dogs and you'll be a monster.
|
| Which is exactly how it should be IMO. We build the world
| we live in by enacting change in it. Praising actions in
| a context devoid of its consequences is a good way to end
| up in a world where everyone basically hacks the reward
| algorithm without any concerns about the results of that.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Addiction is defined by the negative impact on the
| addict, not the behavior itself.
|
| It is a semantics game. Drive, Focus, and motivation are
| just that unless they are maladaptive and detrimental to
| the individual.
|
| These behaviors only become addiction when they run
| counter to the goals and desires of the individual.
| ajmurmann wrote:
| Worth pointing out. I know of a person who was a
| workaholic and then died pretty young from also having
| been a secret alcoholic for much of their life.
| naasking wrote:
| There's a constructive/destructive dimension to all
| behaviours, even addiction. Constructive addictions have
| probably created a lot of great art, innovations and
| achievements, where destructive addictions ruin the lives
| of a person and those around them. Not that addiction in
| any form is necessarily healthy, but it seems obvious
| that constructive ones are more healthy than destructive
| ones, for all involved.
| hotpotamus wrote:
| I personally know people who have been dirty for decades. A
| friend of mine "inherited" the stewardship of one such
| person and he was a miserable bastard until he died of
| cancer and the only people who knew him regretted that it
| didn't progress faster. He was a drag on the few people
| willing to associate with him (neither his mother or
| daughter among them) both emotionally and financially. I
| myself helped clean up the disgusting mass of cigarette tar
| filled beer cans he left in my friend's house after he
| passed.
|
| So your mileage may vary I suppose. And that's about all
| I'll say on the matter.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > "eight years of help and 21 stints in rehab" sounds like
| they tried pretty hard to find a better solution.
|
| First step towards that would be to ditch Anonymous
| Alcoholics and other religious cult-based "rehabs".
| zozbot234 wrote:
| AA and other twelve-steps programs are not inherently
| "religious-based". They only ask you to believe in some
| power higher than yourself that you can tap into as a
| source of inner sternness and restraint. You can call that
| a spiritual outlook if you like, but it's a very mild one
| and quite far from any organized or established religion.
| And it actually works quite well as far as helping people
| to stop drinking and stay off alcohol for the long term.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| There have been many that linked it to being cultist
| (e.g. [1]).
|
| > And it actually works quite well as far as helping
| people to stop drinking and stay off alcohol for the long
| term.
|
| In any case, _that_ is my biggest issue with AA and a lot
| of other "abstinence" programs (particularly those
| mandated by courts): they all but mandate that complete
| and utter sobriety is the only acceptable way instead of
| helping people to _moderate_ their consumption or to find
| out and fix _why_ they are consuming substances. Someone
| who 's in hurt because their partner died or cheated upon
| them or they lost their job or home (these four causes
| are behind a lot of addiction careers) doesn't need a
| sobriety program run by questionably or barely qualified
| random joes, they need professional counseling.
|
| [1] https://www.skeptic.org.uk/2023/03/from-the-archives-
| exposin...
| baggsie wrote:
| I just wrote a long reply detailing why moderation isnt
| an option for people like me, but as usual the best
| explanation of my relationship with alcohol comes from
| the Westwing:
|
| > I'm an alcoholic. I don't have one drink. [pauses] I
| don't understand people who have one drink. I don't
| understand people who leave half a glass of wine on the
| table. I don't understand people who say they've had
| enough. How can you have enough of feeling like this? How
| can you not want to feel like this longer? [pauses,
| sighs] My brain works differently.
| scruple wrote:
| I spent decades of my life trying to pursue moderation.
| It doesn't work (for me). The Sinclair Method worked. I
| tried AA but the white knuckle approach wasn't right for
| me. I know people who have absolutely gotten sober using
| AA, others who use both, and others still who use
| different medications.
|
| In my experience, moderation was the worst possible
| solution. It was like perpetually kicking the problem
| down the road to be dealt with on another day. Relapse
| was frequent and always right around the corner, and with
| relapse came shame, guilt, and other feelings of failure.
| qwytw wrote:
| > sobriety is the only acceptable way instead of helping
| people to moderate their consumption
|
| That only works for some people and not others (likely
| due to genetic factors amongst other reasons). Which can
| be quite hard to grasp for people who are actually able
| (or believe that they are...) to 'moderate their
| consumption'.
| scruple wrote:
| Have you been to an AA meeting?
| mthoms wrote:
| I'm a staunch atheist and was also very cynical about this
| too. That is, until I attended several of these meetings in
| support of a friend.
|
| The intensity of the religious aspect probably varies
| depending on where you live but what I observed was pretty
| minor and wasn't at all offensive.
|
| The two people I know who have been helped by AA are happy
| and healthy now.
| elemos wrote:
| Not everyone's experience of pain is the same. We should keep
| that in mind and have empathy.
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| exactly. the alcohol is usually just secondary and self-
| medication to deal with pain and that pain is very individual
| and personal.
| probably_wrong wrote:
| Sidenote: You might want to describe that link, as The
| Independent redirects based on location and/or device language.
| All I get is the front page.
| cjrp wrote:
| Headline is "Man in the Netherlands euthanised due to his
| alcohol addiction"
| hyperdimension wrote:
| Just to be clear, in case anyone doesn't read the article:
| the man chose by himself to be euthanized, not the
| alternate reading I first thought.
| nicolaslegland wrote:
| https://archive.is/TKUXU https://web.archive.org/web/20161130
| 080200/https://www.indep...
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| It's about a chap in Holland that was a recidivist alcoholic,
| who took advantage of the Dutch Euthanasia laws, to end his
| life.
|
| There's really no way to put a positive spin on it. It sucks,
| no matter what opinions we hold on the matter.
|
| The laws aren't the issue. If someone really wants to end
| things; they will. I have seen it many times, and alternative
| means can be absolutely devastating to the survivors.
| bizbizbizbiz wrote:
| In the article, the family of the patient cited that his
| alcoholism was secondary to his depression - a symptom of
| the bigger thing he was suffering from. The article goes to
| lengths though (see: title) to put the focus on "an
| alcoholic was euthanized."
|
| The brother's relevant quote:
|
| > "My brother suffered from depression and anxiety and
| tried to 'cure' it with alcohol. He's from a normal family,
| he did not want this to happen. He did not take an easy way
| out. Just a humane one.
|
| > "If that's troubling for Mrs Bruce that's a pity. I am
| just glad my brother did not have to jump in front of a
| train or live a few more years in agony before dying of his
| abuse.
|
| I can't tell you for sure what is fact, but I'm inclined to
| take the more rational explanation of the family over the
| irrational "this was an alcoholic choosing death over
| rehab."
| petesergeant wrote:
| > who took advantage of the Dutch Euthanasia laws, to end
| his life ... it sucks, no matter what opinions we hold on
| the matter
|
| His brother disagrees with you, explicitly answering an
| anti-euthanasia protester with: "I am just glad my brother
| did not have to jump in front of a train or live a few more
| years in agony before dying of his abuse"
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| He could have ODed on opium from the dark web. He could
| have networked with other suicidal people to find a
| humane way to kill himself (or be killed).
|
| I hate that people steelman governmental oversight and
| approval of suicide by strawmanning the other options.
|
| In countries which legalize euthanasia it becomes easier
| to do it for more reasons.
|
| Just keep it illegal, but don't prosecute people who try
| to do it. When a person reaches a point where they really
| want to die, they can figure out a way.
| vaidhy wrote:
| I would think my right to live also includes my right to
| die with dignity.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| Sure. But just as you don't have a right to material
| support from the state in order to live, you don't have a
| right to material support from the state in order to die.
| Unless you happen to live in a country in which you do
| have such a right. Regardless, these rights are limited.
| I'm in favor of increasing the first right such that
| suicides are minimized, and reducing the second right to
| not prosecuting you for attempting suicide.
| 8note wrote:
| My right means the government can't hinder me. Making it
| illegal, regardless of whether it's prosecuted or not is
| stamping on my rights. The government has no ability to
| make it illegal
| fuzzfactor wrote:
| Well thought.
|
| When considering rights conferred by authorities or
| society, there is often litte relationship between what's
| available at any one time, to what is beneficial to any
| one individual, who most often has no significant input
| about ways their particular needs may be better
| addressed.
| Jochim wrote:
| I took GP to be mean that it's sad that the man felt the
| need to end his life. His final sentence seems to support
| that sentiment.
| manxman wrote:
| [flagged]
| plandis wrote:
| > I personally know many people that were once far worse off
| than that gentleman, and are now doing quite well
|
| This sounds extremely callous unless you were the dead man's
| therapist or close personal friend. Surely you're not going to
| infer you understand the situation from news articles.
|
| > proven alternate solutions
|
| Plenty of people seek help and yet still die of alcoholism
| despite trying to fix the addiction. There is no 100%
| guaranteed solution, and unless you are intimately familiar
| with the dead man's life I really don't understand how you can
| assume he didn't try to get clean.
| naasking wrote:
| > Surely you're not going to infer you understand the
| situation from news articles.
|
| Surely you're not presuming you understand the horrors that
| the OP has himself witnessed or been privy to? For all you
| know the OP could have been working with addicts for 50 years
| and literally seen it all. Maybe be a bit more charitable.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| _> 50 years_
|
| 42, actually.
| wonderwonder wrote:
| Trying not to judge this guy but to put your parents through
| that seems unimaginable to me. Could not comprehend gathering
| my family around to watch me kill myself.
| rcpt wrote:
| "The so-called 'psychotically depressed' person who tries to kill
| herself doesn't do so out of quote 'hopelessness' or any abstract
| conviction that life's assets and debits do not square. And
| surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in
| whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will
| kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump
| from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about
| people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling
| from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you
| or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out
| the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The
| variable here is the other terror, the fire's flames: when the
| flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly
| less terrible of two terrors. It's not desiring the fall; it's
| terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk,
| looking up and yelling 'Don't!' and 'Hang on!', can understand
| the jump. Not really. You'd have to have personally been trapped
| and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond
| falling."
|
| -David Foster Wallace
| roncesvalles wrote:
| While some people really do have to make a choice between fire
| and falling, many who think they're in that situation may
| actually be hallucinating of the fire. They don't have to fall;
| they can be helped.
| joewferrara wrote:
| This is pretty good considering the fact that David Foster
| Wallace took his own life in the end. I read the whole quote
| before I saw at the end it's from him.
| chris_st wrote:
| Takes one to know one, as we used to say...
| fuzzfactor wrote:
| It also might be revealing to read the account of the guy
| that jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge and survived.
| spacedcowboy wrote:
| This is where my wife was, a week or so ago.
|
| She was initially admitted to hospital for low Sodium
| (hyponatremia) with no obvious symptoms - we actually went for
| something else which was benign. They corrected the low Sodium,
| but they corrected it quickly - possibly too quickly [1]. The
| next day she started to become non-responsive, and the day
| after was completely non-responsive - didn't react to pain
| stimuli, dropping her hand over her face just made her hand hit
| her face, couldn't open her eyes etc.
|
| They gave her anti-depressant drugs and she seemed to snap out
| of it. They kept her in for another couple of days (which the
| insurance are now arguing over, but that's another tragedy) and
| then discharged her.
|
| A few days later she stopped being able to walk, she's in
| constant pain, her legs are tremoring all the time now, her
| chest is constricted and she's frequently hyperventilating for
| hours at a time in order to breathe. She gets told she's
| "anxious", and it's in her head by her PCP. We visit ER several
| times because she can't breathe properly, and every time she's
| put on an IV, they maybe give her some sedation (Ativan) and
| then discharge her a few hours later once she's calmed down due
| to the drugs.
|
| After 6 weeks of constant pain, next to no sleep, and being
| told she's fine (when she clearly isn't "fine") she starts
| talking about how she needs to find peace, and she can't take
| this any more. She's been building up to it, but I didn't take
| it seriously enough. Mea culpa. We don't have a gun in the
| house, she phones friends, asking them if they have a gun, and
| she'd "take care of everything".
|
| One friend of hers calls it in. Police, Fire-brigade (EMT) and
| eventually an ambulance appear outside the house as she's
| sectioned on a 3-day hold. They actually released her the next
| day, and now she's terrified of "going back". I'm not saying
| the officials did anything wrong - they didn't - they were
| courteous but implacable, but they were just doing an
| unpleasant job. On the plus side, she's not mentioned anything
| about taking her life since.
|
| A doctor mentions that there is such a thing as Osmotic
| Demylination Syndrome [2], which can happen when hyponatremia
| is "fixed" too rapidly. It would explain all the symptoms we're
| seeing, including the non-responsiveness. Apparently there's an
| MRI test to see if this has happened. Our next (7th ? I lose
| track) visit to ER, I get them to do this MRI. She doesn't have
| it, from what we can see on the data. I ask for the data to
| send to the neurologist.
|
| _Finally_ , 8 weeks since this all started, the various
| specialist referrals start to kick in: Endocrinologist,
| Cardiologist, Neurologist, Gastroenterologist, Psychiatrist...
| Her PCP hasn't been much help other than to give referrals, and
| in fact seems to be out of her depth - the last visit to the
| PCP we were told that the PCP refused to prescribe any more
| Ativan. That would be reasonable (these aren't drugs to take
| lightly) if she were to be weaned off them, but no - cold
| turkey it has to be. I ask the PCP to talk to the neurologist,
| who seems a bit more human, and the prescription is passed to
| the neurologist to fulfil.
|
| I won't go into me finding a lump on my balls, and the
| subsequent worry over cancer (it was just a cyst), or the
| maybe-heart-attack last weekend that has _me_ seeing the same
| cardiologist as my wife 'STAT'. This isn't about me. But if
| I'm out of the picture, well, there's just me, her and our son,
| the rest of family is 6000 miles away....
|
| So here I am, still trying to sound positive to an intelligent
| woman who knows just how far she's fallen. Still trying to
| sound upbeat when she's literally crying in pain (oh yeah, the
| pain-specialist appointment is still to happen) throughout the
| night, and OTC pain-killers don't have any effect. Still trying
| to make it sound like we're making progress even though I can't
| see it myself. Still trying to answer "why won't someone help
| me ?" without sounding trite and jaded.
|
| Hopelessness is an insidious poison for the mind. I don't feel
| the same way, but I can understand how she'd ask about the
| gun...
|
| 1: https://imgur.com/jtGTdn3
|
| 2: https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/000775.htm
| renewedrebecca wrote:
| I'm so sorry your wife (and you) are going through this. When
| the medical system fails, it fails hard. I don't know what to
| say except that I hope you all get to the bottom of this
| quickly and she gets the help she needs.
| Centigonal wrote:
| It sounds like you're going through a real-life nightmare!
|
| This whole story sounds insane (assuming you're not leaving
| out essential details), with multiple overlapping failures. I
| am not a medical professional, so take this all with a grain
| of salt (no pun intended).
|
| First off, idiopathic hyponatremia in non-elderly, non-
| pregnant, otherwise healthy people is unusual - why was your
| wife hyponatremic to begin with? This is worth investigating.
|
| It's amazing to me that it took weeks for you to be told
| about the risks involved in raising sodium too quickly.
|
| It's ludicrous that a doctor would prescribe daily Ativan for
| treatment of generalized anxiety in 2023 (Ativan and related
| benzodiazepine drugs are extremely habit forming, wreck your
| memory, and don't show evidence of improving anxiety
| endpoints in the long term. Great for infrequent occasional
| use, e.g. panic attacks though).
|
| It's even more ludicrous that they would want her to quit
| cold-turkey if she's been taking Ativan daily for longer than
| a few weeks. Benzodiazepine withdrawal is unpleasant and
| dangerous. That said, not being on daily Ativan for anxiety
| is a good thing. If you want to read up on withdrawing from
| benzos safely, the Ashton Manual is a popular (although
| older) source a lot of medical and recreational users have
| used to get clean[1].
|
| As for the psychological aspects of this ordeal: The only way
| out is through - you just have to keep going and keep
| advocating for yourselves. If you haven't already, I highly
| recommend getting set up with regular therapy for both of
| yourselves. Falling down happens to us all- getting back up
| is an difficult but essential part of life, and having a
| third party there to remind you of your forward progress and
| push/encourage you when you need it is very valuable.
|
| [1] https://www.benzoinfo.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2022/07/Ashton-...
| spacedcowboy wrote:
| Thanks for the info :)
|
| Regarding leaving stuff out. I'm really not. My only
| concern here is getting my wife well, and she absolutely
| had none of these symptoms previously, or any hint of them,
| and whilst I haven't described every individual visit to ER
| in detail, they all follow the same pattern as recounted.
| We've just had the first round of specialists, and I don't
| have a very high opinion of her PCP, but now that we have
| the specialists, I'm more hopeful that something might get
| done.
|
| None of the doctors involved told us about the dangers of
| raising Sodium quickly. The neurologist agreed that it
| might be and put my wife on Prednisone/something-to-help-
| her-stomach after our first visit. It was actually my boss'
| wife (she's a doctor) that mentioned ODS to him and hence
| to us. FWIW, work has been outstandingly supportive over
| the last couple of months, the only real shining light.
|
| The MRI doesn't seem to support ODS though, but I
| personally think it's too much of a coincidence that she
| responded so poorly, and then symptoms very similar to it
| emerged later. It might not be ODS, but _something_
| happened. She had none of these symptoms before going in.
|
| As for why she had hyponatremia, she had diarrhoea the week
| previously, and the hospital put it down to that. We had no
| idea her sodium was low - as I said we went in for
| something unrelated (that turned out to be benign).
|
| The PCP put her on Ativan, right up until she said "I don't
| feel comfortable prescribing this any more, so I'm not
| going to". Cue the argument about withdrawal and the PCP
| saying she'd talk to the neurologist and see if the
| neurologist would take over. I get the feeling the PCP is
| very much a "fair weather" doctor - fine for when things
| are fine...
|
| The neurologist has changed away from Ativan to another
| benzo, but has also prescribed mirtazapine as a more long-
| term solution. We have another visit with her scheduled at
| the end of the month.
| hn92726819 wrote:
| > They actually released her the next day, and now she's
| terrified of "going back". I'm not saying the officials did
| anything wrong - they didn't - they were courteous but
| implacable, but they were just doing an unpleasant job.
|
| I do not know your experience obviously, but this reads like
| more weight is put on how they handled it and less on your
| wife's experience. I'm glad they didn't handle it poorly
| (which is already too common), but being held against your
| will can be a seriously traumatizing experience. Regardless
| of if they did the "right" or "wrong" thing, the fear of
| losing your rights again can be severe and cause even more
| damage in the long term. I just want to make sure her likely
| terrible experience isn't overlooked because the medics
| followed their instructions.
|
| In my personal experience, I had a traumatic experience after
| talking about suicide as well. I didn't talk to anyone about
| it for many years afterwords because of that experience and
| the fear of it happening again. Arguably, I'm worse off
| because of that, since I have felt significantly better after
| eventually opening up and (luckily) not having a second
| traumatizing experience. But I recognize that even though
| everyone followed their orders properly, it can be terrifying
| to the individual.
|
| > On the plus side, she's not mentioned anything about taking
| her life since.
|
| Again, I don't know your personal experience, but I would
| strongly suggest you talk to her about this. Not mentioning
| it does not mean not thinking about it, _especially_ if there
| 's been a traumatizing experience in the past related to
| openly discussing suicide. She might be on edge discussing
| this topic with _anyone_ , including you, because of the
| experience she had. I know what helped me is knowing I had
| someone that I could talk to without risk of being "turned
| in," which I suspect you wouldn't want to subject her to
| again. You can fact check me on this: talking about it won't
| "plant the idea" back in her head or anything.
|
| You sound like you care a lot about her. Someone like you is
| the reason I'm here still, so you're doing something right :)
| spacedcowboy wrote:
| It did come up - it's hard to avoid an elephant in a room,
| despite the saying... I'm not going to go into details, but
| we did and do talk.
|
| I also don't want to give the impression that my concern is
| more for the process than my wife - while writing, I didn't
| want to be seen to be blaming them for enforcing the 3-day
| hold. Once someone's called it in, and the police making
| the house-call decide it's plausible, they don't deviate.
| They were kind, but firm, is all I was trying to say.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| What a terrible experience you are going through. I hope it
| makes a turn for the better, and soon. I'm curious what you
| mean by one of your closing comments:
|
| >Still trying to answer "why won't someone help me ?" without
| sounding trite and jaded
|
| Not looking to debate, but genuinely curious.
| spacedcowboy wrote:
| Because I agree with her that she's not getting the help
| she needs, but I don't know where else to go.
|
| - Her PCP seems useless - basically a glorified project
| manager for other expert opinions, and the time taken to
| get appointments with these experts is straining.
|
| - Going to urgent care, or doing an 'online Dr visit' just
| gets the advice to go to ER instead, because of the
| breathing.
|
| - Going to ER (which we have, several times) just gets her
| admitted to the ER beds, put on an IV for fluids, maybe a
| chest X-Ray taken, and then discharged after a few hours
| with a recommendation to go see her PCP.
|
| - the neurologist has been the best of them so far, but
| she's 30 miles away and we get to see her once per month.
| I'm grateful for the help we've had from the neurologist,
| but it's not much use at 3am when she can't breath, again,
| is in pain, again, and feels like her chest has a bar
| pressing down across it, again. Going to ER because of this
| is covered above.
|
| No-one wants to take ownership, everyone (with the
| exception so far of our neurologist) wants to try and get
| someone else to "manage this case". It doesn't leave one
| with the warm fuzzies, especially given the last couple of
| months.
|
| It has actually reached the point where I've considered -
| not seriously yet, but it's still there - selling up,
| leaving the US and going back home to the UK. Myself and my
| son are citizens by right, I have enough cash/equivalents
| that getting a spousal visa wouldn't be an issue, and we'd
| pay the NHS surcharge for a few years - still a lot less
| than my insurance here. We could even be closer to family
| for better support. The largest factor against, in fact, is
| the logistics of simply getting her there, taking a plane
| seems like a poor option atm, and she gets very seasick
| even on cruise liners. Once there, having bought a house
| with the proceeds of the sale of this one, retirement would
| be pretty easy on me, and maybe a health service more
| focussed on making people better, over making money, might
| be better for her.
| ianburrell wrote:
| Can you find a new PCP? One that may not be a good family
| doctor but can coordinate care.
|
| You are probably already doing it, but I have heard that
| it is really important to have advocate when patient
| can't organize themselves. If you can, go to
| appointments, take notes, and ask lots of questions. Push
| on uncertainty until get tests and answers. Try and solve
| separate problems, like Ativan dependency, so can focus
| on the big one and she feels better. One question I had
| is what does the treatment for raising sodium too quickly
| look like and is it worth doing even if the MRI was
| negative.
|
| Also, I vaguely remember reading about group of doctors
| that solve medical mysteries. I found an article,
| https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/07/health/patients-
| medical-m..., but not sure one I read.
| spacedcowboy wrote:
| I'm in the process of looking for a new PCP - although
| now we actually do have access to the specialists that I
| think we needed to, and our interaction is more or less
| just "send a non-urgent message" on the web-platform, and
| get a referral back the next working day.
|
| I am at _every single one_ of these appointments - I was
| in a better position to recall how things went down, and
| I am very much her advocate. She 's had many many tests -
| which have ruled out a lot of truly terrifying things,
| but there is still no affirmative diagnosis of what it is
| she has. The last discharge from ER listed her as having
| "restless leg syndrome" - which is obviously not a
| diagnosis. The tremors in her legs are a symptom, not a
| cause, and they only started after the sodium levels were
| raised.
|
| The treatment was the prednisone that the neurologist put
| her on prior to getting the MRI data, but prednisone has
| its own side-effects, so we were told to stop taking it
| once the MRI data was obtained.
|
| The "Undiagnosed diseases network" is a great find -
| thank you. I have just enrolled her case in "Teladoc"
| which can give 'expert medical opinions' using her
| release notes and visit documentation. I'm hopeful they
| might find something, but the UDN looks like 'House' for
| real. I'll definitely look into it :)
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Thanks, I see now. For some reason I thought you were
| talking about non-medical help for yourself. I guess you
| are in some sense looking for non-medical help navigating
| the medical system itself.
|
| I'm guessing any advice I offer you would have already
| thought of, but maybe you can pay over the counter for a
| medical consultant in the UK or anywhere for that matter
| Liquix wrote:
| Authors who end up taking their own lives often pen some of the
| most haunting and poignant passages on death:
|
| "It was useless to try to do anything. One could only watch the
| extraordinary efforts made by those tiny legs against an
| oncoming doom which could, had it chosen, have submerged an
| entire city, not merely a city, but masses of human beings;
| nothing, I knew had any chance against death."
|
| - Virginia Woolf, _Death of a Moth_
| benj111 wrote:
| Urgh how depressing. I thought I was at least a significant
| psychological leap away from suicide. Turns out i basically lack
| conviction.
| hackeraccount wrote:
| David Foster Wallace's description of a person in a burning
| building struck me deeply. That said most people killing
| themselves are not in fact in a burning building; they just think
| they are.
|
| I've never considered suicide but I remember being deeply unhappy
| as a teenager. it's not that looking back on it I can't see why
| but at the time I didn't know why. I'd consider my circumstances
| and realize that whatever problems I had were both trivial and
| fixable but still feel utterly miserable. The thing that
| frightened me was the idea that I would lose that perspective.
|
| Now though, now I'm an old man. I know that at some point the
| odds are good that I'm going to be in that burning building for
| real and I don't know what I'll do.
| rrgok wrote:
| It is amazing how everyone arguments about suicide is trying to
| rationalize in one way or he the other the cause of suicide: what
| led to it? why? Is right? Honestly: who cares?
|
| My stance is this: there need not to be any reason to die other
| than wanting it.
|
| I've never asked for this life. So let me go, without much fuss,
| when I want to go. I don't need to motivate my decision, nor I
| need find meaning for myself to end it. Whether it is to escape
| pain or happiness it doesn't matter. Maybe I'm happy about the
| life I lived up until now, and I'm happy to go. It is nobody's
| concern but mine. And please, make laws and facilities to make it
| happen painlessly and reliably for all people who are able to
| decide it for the themselves at whatever age they wish to go.
| thr-nrg wrote:
| I fully intend to kill myself eventually. The idea that I should
| prolong my life past the point where I get dementia, a
| degenerative disease, or just plain old age where I can't stand
| up or whipe my ass is repugnant enough that I can't understand
| people who want me to suffer until doctors finally stop being
| able to put me back together. Much better to die cheaply with a
| wonderful cocktail of opiates while watching a sunset some on
| some tropical island.
| martindbp wrote:
| Much easier said than done. I doubt you'll feel the same way
| when that old age approaches, just like teenagers who think
| life is practically over by 40.
| Joeboy wrote:
| "Hope I die before I get old" - Pete Townshend, 1945--
| crossroadsguy wrote:
| Such edgy quotes aid in the mystic and aura building which
| eventually help with the sales.
| hasbot wrote:
| Not at all. My grandmother was diagnosed with breast cancer
| in her 60's and eventually died of it. Near the end she was
| hoping to die.
| Madmallard wrote:
| The people I know that are really old or the people I have
| known rather generally weren't too thrilled with living at
| that point. When your quality of life is really poor, living
| seems like more trouble than it's worth. I wonder if some of
| those people have a lot of agency over just letting their
| body stop working.
| c7DJTLrn wrote:
| >just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40
|
| Sorry but... it kind of is, no? You've probably got a family
| weighing you down so you can't travel anymore. You don't have
| the freedom to start new exciting ventures. You can't quit
| your sucky job because it supports your family. You go to
| parties that end at 9pm and your social gatherings consist of
| talking about traffic and grocery prices. You're probably
| married to someone you love and respect, but the flame isn't
| the same as what you once had.
|
| Just my perspective as a 22 year old.
| JoelSanchez wrote:
| my mom is 48 years old, she loves her job, no one depends
| on her, has a different boyfriend every month, goes to the
| same parties I go to (which end at 6am) and we even share
| some friends (im 29). definitely not over
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| > You can't quit your sucky job because it supports your
| family.
|
| My jobs have gotten less suckier as I've gotten older. And
| with experience (and, rarely, more savings) I have more
| options. Yes, I could quit if I want.
| harimau777 wrote:
| I see it almost the exact opposite. I'm in my early 30s
| without a wife or kids and I feel like my life is basically
| over because of it.
| omgmajk wrote:
| You sound like you're 13, not 22. I'm 38 and nothing what
| you said is true for me nor any of my friends.
| hummingly wrote:
| That is a depressing view on aging. At some point kids
| becomes adults and can support themselves and if they were
| taught any form of responsibility, they will support their
| parents. These days my parents hang out with their friends
| or go once in a while on vacation which they pay or my
| sibling and I. To me it sounds like someone enduring a life
| style they dislike but accepted because they believe this
| is how life should be.
|
| Maybe it is a culturally thing but as a kid I had to
| complain to my parents to get home and by then it was 1 am.
| rockbruno wrote:
| This sounds exactly what a 13 year old would say about life
| being over at 20. Or a 22 saying life is over a 40. Or a 40
| saying life is over at 50. Or a 50 saying life is over at
| 60. See a pattern?
| s_c_r wrote:
| I'm 37, married with two kids. Flying to Scotland for a
| week next Monday.
|
| Life is what you make it. I'm happier than I was at 22, no
| question.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| lmao
| argiopetech wrote:
| If you've done it right, by 40 you have children. If you've
| raised them right, they're fun to be with. Even if you
| haven't, they require enough out of you that you want to go
| to bed by 9. Social gatherings are about spending time with
| other families and letting your children play. Your partner
| is a collaborative team member in a complex dance, and
| while the passion for that person is not as fiery as the
| lust-fueled early days before you realized they were a real
| person with flaws, it's no less significant in magnitude.
|
| Travel with a family takes more planning, but millions take
| significant road/flight/cruise trips every year. Budgeting
| (of money and, if applicable, vacation time) is key.
|
| Changing jobs or starting ventures is similar. It's easier
| to get a job if you already have one, it's easier to
| survive a job change if you have savings. Planning remains
| key. It's not as low-risk as it would be for a
| bachelor(ette), but you have the time, stability, and
| mindset to start slow and minimize that risk as you go.
|
| As your kids grow you have more time to pursue your
| interests. Eventually, if all goes well, you get the joy of
| grandchildren (all the fun of having children, but you can
| give them back). Retirement, if you've planned well and
| have your health, is a return to childhood (less money,
| more fun, most of your playmates are children [at least
| relative to your age]).
|
| There are another 40 years after 40. Plan accordingly.
| sgjohnson wrote:
| > If you've done it right, by 40 you have children.
|
| It's also perfectly okay to not have children.
| argiopetech wrote:
| It's a valid life choice, of course, and you're free to
| make it. I'd not call it "perfect", though (and neither
| is choosing to have kids). It's all a matter of which
| trade-offs you prefer.
|
| I like children, desire to pass my genes to the future,
| value the ability to raise my children to have an impact
| on the world somewhat in line with my perception of it
| (commensurate on their natural predilection to agree with
| me and act on that agreement), and want somebody to look
| after me and my affairs in my old age. I'm willing to
| accept the cost (in time, money, stress, reduced
| flexibility...) and responsibility in return. If you make
| the decision not to have kids, I hope you can say the
| same for your trade-offs.
| rrgok wrote:
| I'm sorry, maybe other people said the same thing. I
| didn't read the whole thread yet. I'm gonna pick you and
| the line "desire to pass my genes to the future". I'm
| gonna ask you some genuine questions about it, so please
| if you can I would appreciate your point of view.
|
| What is this desire, how does it feel? I've never felt
| it.
|
| Is it a thought process or do you feel it in your body?
| (like hunger, sexual attraction...).
|
| Do you feel pain in your body (chest pain, knot in the
| throat..) if you think you cannot fulfill that desire?
|
| How do you feel if you think about the fact that when you
| are dead, it just doesn't matter if you passed your gene
| or not? Isn't that desire just a rationalization/mental
| process vanishing in oblivion?
|
| Where does that desire goes if you scale-up the total
| human species life-span? Would you feel happy that you
| will have grand-grand-grand children that you will never
| meet?
|
| I've never felt the desire to pass my genes to anybody. I
| have sexual desire, does that mean I want to pass my
| genes? But I feel like, sexual desire is like taking a
| piss: I just release some build-up in my body. I cannot
| rationalize my peeing in: I have to pee, because that
| ensure my survival hence the succession of me gene. I
| feel the same of orgasm. It feels that thought process is
| forced and conditioned by society.
| best_one_there wrote:
| [dead]
| sambapa wrote:
| *as a depressed 22 year old
| zajio1am wrote:
| Note that most of these issues are related to 'have a
| family', not to 'be over 40'.
| chalcolithic wrote:
| find a spouse that dreads the problems you've listed and
| you'll be amazed by how easily they can be solved
| agensaequivocum wrote:
| No raise children in your early 20s. When you're forty
| they'll be adults.
| [deleted]
| JohnBooty wrote:
| I'm in my 40s and felt the same way as you (more or less)
| at 22.
|
| Many people do wind up as you describe. On the other hand
| you write as if it is inevitable rather than a specific
| choice. You've probably got a family
| weighing you down so you can't travel anymore. You
| don't have the freedom to start new exciting
| ventures.
|
| Yes, you probably do have to choose between "family" and
| the other stuff unless you have some unusually favorable
| circumstances. Either lots of money, or extended family
| members (grandparents) with whom you can leave the kids
| while you travel, etc.
|
| Depends on your definition of "travel" though. Flying to
| another country on a whim? Probably not. Packing the kids
| and tents up and going camping? Heck yes.
| You go to parties that end at 9pm and your social
| gatherings consist of talking about traffic and
| grocery prices.
|
| Oh hell no. I'm over 40 and still making great friends.
| Friends with whom I share interests, not just banal
| conversations. It's different than when you're young, it
| takes a little more work. You're not just dumped into a
| school with hundreds of people your age. But it's better.
| You can choose your social circles and meet other
| enthusiasts relevant to your interests.
| You're probably married to someone you love and respect,
| but the flame isn't the same as what you once had.
|
| It's certainly true: those giddy early months of a
| relationship change into something else eventually. Can be
| better or worse depending on your perspective.
|
| Again, you can just not get married! Or do some kind of
| poly/open/whatever relationship if that's your thing. Or be
| asexual. Or be so undesirable that nobody wants to nestle
| down with you and saddle you with a family. Or just find
| some sort of ethical way of getting what you need from sex
| workers. (That last one may be tricky)
| Delk wrote:
| > Again, you can just not get married! Or do some kind of
| poly/open/whatever relationship if that's your thing. Or
| be asexual. Or be so undesirable that nobody wants to
| nestle down with you and saddle you with a family. Or
| just find some sort of ethical way of getting what you
| need from sex workers. (That last one may be tricky)
|
| IMO any of those can be tricky. Relationships in general
| are, at any part of the spectrum, including a lack of
| them.
|
| Poly/open/casual/whatever isn't easy unless your partner
| (or potential partners) also wants to be in one of those.
| Leaving an existing relationship for one of those
| probably isn't easy (unless it's meaningless), and can be
| anything but if one is already married with kids. Non-
| exclusive relationships may also need to deal with
| potential feelings of jealousy etc. in a different way
| than exclusive ones, and again, it's not down to just
| oneself.
|
| One probably doesn't really _choose_ to be asexual
| either, and I 'd wager that trying to make such a choice
| is generally unhealthy. And if you actually are asexual
| but want an otherwise romantic relationship, finding one
| (where both are satisfied) is probably harder than it
| would be more conventionally.
|
| Most people (or all of us?) have mutually conflicting
| desires and needs for their relationships. That makes
| relationships tricky in general. It's probably even more
| so for someone who's less comfortable socially or with
| themselves than you would seem to be.
|
| I don't think it's always even _possible_ ,
| psychologically or emotionally, for everyone to solve
| those conflicting needs and desires in a satisfying way.
|
| It sounds quite cynical to see marriage or long-term
| relationships largely as a burden, and seeing the
| possibilities can be an antidote for that for some
| people. But trying to make it out as everything being
| possible and choices that you can just make feels a bit
| like it can trivialize the difficulty of actually doing
| it.
| inconceivable wrote:
| i'm 40 and i live like a rich 16 year old with no adult
| supervision. peter pan syndrome is always an option.
|
| anyway, here's your real problem. you might want to figure
| out which older people in your life are poisoning your mind
| with their bullshit. having a family, or not, can be great
| and is always your choice. miserable people end up that way
| because they're living someone else's dream, not their own.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
|
| Psychological projection is a defence mechanism of alterity
| concerning "inside" content mistaken to be coming from the
| "outside"
| tmtvl wrote:
| > _Sorry but... it kind of is, no?_
|
| No.
|
| > _You 've probably got a family weighing you down so you
| can't travel anymore._
|
| Well...
|
| 1: Having a family is a choice people make, not everyone
| over the age of 40 has a family.
|
| 2: Just because someone can't travel doesn't mean per life
| is over.
|
| 3: It is (in many cases) entirely possible for someone over
| 40 to travel with per family.
|
| 4: People making the choice to have a family probably
| wouldn't call it "weighing down".
|
| > _You don 't have the freedom to start new exciting
| ventures._
|
| Define "exciting ventures" and explain why it isn't
| possible. There are many things that can be done as a
| person over the age of 40, even WITH a family.
|
| > _You can 't quit your sucky job because it supports your
| family._
|
| Not everyone over the age of 40 has a "sucky" job and if
| one has a job which is unpleasant there may very well still
| be the possibility of changing careers.
|
| > _You go to parties that end at 9pm and your social
| gatherings consist of talking about traffic and grocery
| prices._
|
| Speaking from experience? It's entirely possible to engage
| the services of a babysitter and go spend time with friends
| until the night is well past the point of being young. Also
| "traffic and grocery prices"? Where do you even get that?
| People over the age of 40 can be (and usually are)
| interested in other things like, say, sports, cinema, even
| the dreaded "celebrity gossip".
|
| > _You 're probably married to someone you love and
| respect, but the flame isn't the same as what you once
| had._
|
| If a couple can't quite manage to Take Hold of the Flame,
| there is always the possibility of ending the marriage,
| which may once again open the door to those "new exciting
| ventures" you mentioned. And regardless even if the
| relationship isn't what it once was that doesn't mean life
| is over.
|
| Just my perspective as a 33 year old.
| cshimmin wrote:
| This hilariously proves OPs point. If satire, bravo, if
| not, well, we were all teenagers (or 22yos, in this case)
| once.
|
| In any case: most new startup founders are over the age of
| forty. Assuming that's what a 22yo on hn considers an
| "exciting new venture".
| dbrueck wrote:
| Hehe, for fun you should bookmark your comment and refer
| back to it every 5 years.
|
| If you're open to it, here are a few ideas to noodle on:
|
| - A lot of what you find fun/interesting changes over time.
| The partying of the 20s was fun, in its way, but now seems
| mostly pretty silly, superficial, and (sorry for saying
| this) childish and dumb. I'm not saying it _is_ , just that
| your notion of fun changes, and if now I had the power to
| do absolutely anything I wanted, "partying" would not be
| even in my top 100 list because there are so many things
| that are more fun and fulfilling. Ask a 3 year old how
| they'd love to spend their time.
|
| - Many details of life are outside your control, but you
| still have a _huge_ influence on things. If you end up in
| your 40s in a marriage where the flame has gone out, that
| 's mostly on you and your partner - it definitely doesn't
| need to be that way. Just because it seems common for
| people to get married and stop courting/dating each other
| doesn't mean you have to. Ditto for things like a job. In
| both cases, there's an element of settling in and coasting
| that's easy to do but doesn't necessarily produce the long
| term results you really want. Gotta begin with the end in
| mind and course correct over time, but also have to avoid
| obsessing over the imperfections and less-than-ideals of
| life, because there will always be plenty of those.
|
| - The number of kids you have is a pretty private choice,
| but if approach it with either cynicism or idealism then
| you'll likely be disappointed. It's a roller coaster, it's
| hard, kids will absolutely drive you crazy sometimes. But
| it can also be a source of joy and purpose to a degree that
| might be incomprehensible to you right now. I'm trying to
| be careful here because it is a sensitive topic, but
| compared to being single, it's hard to really explain how
| much depth and substance having a family has added to my
| life. In retrospect it feels like life didn't really begin
| until then. Lots of cool stuff and adventures before then,
| of course, but... yeah.
|
| - Your kids eventually go away. I mean, it's obvious,
| right, and yet I didn't really appreciate it until it
| happened. That stage of life where kids are at home is
| actually relatively short. It's so temporary. You'll always
| be a parent, but suddenly you find yourself on the other
| side of it with a whole lot more time for hobbies and
| travel and whatever else and yet you don't really feel all
| that old yet.
| laratied wrote:
| You will get a ton of denial about this but you aren't
| wrong.
|
| On the other hand it is really easy to not get married and
| not have kids. Then the equation is quite different. 40s
| and 50s isn't all that different than 22. I would even say
| better in most ways.
|
| Your vision of marriage is even kind of romantic still. The
| married guys I know it is more like depression because of
| separation and knowing the wife is fucking a Tinder guy
| while your kid is sleeping in the next room. They even know
| her date outfit because she posts the picture on social
| media.
|
| I have two friends right now that this is their exact life.
| One of them I thought was the absolute perfect couple at
| 30. Women know their value and aren't going to waste their
| life with the flame having gone out.
| colineartheta wrote:
| This reads comically incel-ish. "Women know their value",
| like a self-respecting man doesn't? Why aren't your male
| friends doing the same thing, then? Life doesn't end at
| 40, for either sex. With/without a family,
| married/divorced, the choice to develop and grow as a
| human is always your own.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| The average man on HN has had far less sex than the
| average man. This is simply the fate of nerdy computer
| touchers and is why we get "incel content" here. In
| coding, you trade your sexual market value for actual
| money. It's a sad dynamic, and I think a little bit of
| "life imitating art" given that the "nerd jock" dynamics
| seem to be uniquely an American thing.
| [deleted]
| teolandon wrote:
| Don't have kids, keep meeting new people.
| badosu wrote:
| 'family weighing you down' if that's how you'd see family
| at 40 sure
| martindbp wrote:
| That's what I keep telling my boy when he wants to cuddle
| up and read a bedtime story: "stop weighing me down,
| daddy has more important things to do, like vapid parties
| and brunch"...
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| closer to 40 than 30 now and the fix is to not work.
| bregma wrote:
| I'm in my 60s. The only downsides I see are a bit of
| stiffness in the morning and putting up with know-it-all
| 22-year-olds.
| c7DJTLrn wrote:
| Sorry for how my comment may have come off. I genuinely
| don't know what happy 40 year olds live like because I
| had a dysfunctional household. My impressions are based
| on what I hear from people around me like colleagues as
| well as social media. And it's usually miserable stuff.
| BeFlatXIII wrote:
| Sounds like the problem is that you went and tied yourself
| down with a spouse and children when they weren't at the
| top of your life goals.
| mk67 wrote:
| Nobody forces you to live like that. I'm 39 and not one
| point hits the mark for me. :D
|
| While true that it's harder to get social connections it's
| far from impossible; in the end you just need to go out and
| meet new people doing things alone sometimes. On the other
| hand I have much more money, thus can actually travel
| when/how I want, compared to my 20s, and could probably
| quit my job in the next decade, if I want to.
|
| Overall it's different to some degree, but in sum I'd say I
| enjoy life much more than in my 20s nowadays. Doubt that
| changes until I start to get sick(er) in my 50s/60s.
| martindbp wrote:
| Believe it or not, traveling and partying gets old. Most of
| us have an evolutionary desire to have kids. You may not,
| but it can take time to manifest. Look out for feelings of
| hollowness, boredom or depression. Parenting may be hard,
| but I've never felt hollow or bored or that life has no
| meaning.
| fzeroracer wrote:
| This is possibly one of the worst sentiments to look for
| if you intend on having kids. I've seen families before
| where they had children solely to fill in that feeling of
| boredom or hollowness and when children don't fix it,
| they abandon them or become nasty parents.
| stocknoob wrote:
| You probably didn't mean it this way, but that reasoning
| emphasizes bringing beings into this world to avoid your
| own bad emotions, and not so they can experience their
| own good ones.
| martindbp wrote:
| Giving kids a happy childhood and setting them up for
| happiness and contentment is of course implied. Either
| way, I think the vast majority of people who are alive
| want to remain alive, so I never understood the sentiment
| that it's selfish to bring someone into the world. It's
| only selfish if you benefit while someone else suffers.
| Bringing kids into the world is a win-win, at least in
| the developed world where birthrates are plummeting way
| below replacement rate. In this case it's a win-win-win
| (third being society).
|
| What might be considered selfish is to not have kids when
| we are way below replacement rate, while expecting to be
| taken care of by other's kids in old age. Unless we reach
| AGI and humanoid robots soon, the food, housing, services
| and healthcare has to be provided by younger people.
| BizarreByte wrote:
| > I think the vast majority of people who are alive want
| to remain alive
|
| I don't want to die because it's scary and likely
| painful, but I definitely would have preferred I wasn't
| here to begin with.
| badpun wrote:
| > Either way, I think the vast majority of people who are
| alive want to remain alive, so I never understood the
| sentiment that it's selfish to bring someone into the
| world.
|
| It's not "remaining". If you had decided to not have
| kids, the kids wouldn't be there in the first place, so
| they wouldn't (couldn't) feel any regret about.
| laratied wrote:
| Same here. I fear the random nature of a heart attack even
| more.
|
| My ideal is almost to take enough water into the woods to
| starve in the woods. To really stare my death in the face and
| experience it slowly.
|
| Clinging to life in a nursing home is a fate worse than death
| to me.
|
| I am sure this all depends on having kids or not. Being child
| free gives many more options.
| TheCleric wrote:
| This is something I have thought about, but recently have
| paid attention to stories that seem to be along these lines,
| such as Gordon Kaye in Great Smokies National Park.
|
| While this may seem like a simple way, it seems like it
| wastes hundreds of people's time that could be spent helping
| people who are actually wanting help.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| > While this may seem like a simple way, it seems like it
| wastes hundreds of people's time
|
| You could just leave a note or email.
|
| > that could be spent helping people who are actually
| wanting help.
|
| How many of those people were going to help others
| otherwise?
| lazyasciiart wrote:
| I don't know the Gordon Kaye story, but "those people"
| that get involved for search and rescue operations are
| usually professionals who would, in fact, spend that time
| working to help other people instead.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| In some cases I believe you're right, tradeoffs do
| happen. In other cases they are just on call. This is why
| private rescues are so expensive. You aren't just paying
| for the professionals and the equipment, you're paying
| for them to _sit around_ until called.
| becquerel wrote:
| It is incredibly difficult and miserable to starve to death.
| Experiencing death slowly - isn't living enough for that?
| twelve40 wrote:
| i obviously haven't experienced what you described, since
| i'm breathing and typing right now, but weeks of going with
| no food were really pretty calming. The only downside was
| the weakness and mental fog that affects productivity but
| if you don't have to work at that point... Of course, all
| of this is super-individual.
| hasbot wrote:
| Same here. Having seen what two of my grandparents went through
| before their eventual demise makes me want to avoid doing the
| same.
| theowaway44 wrote:
| As I'm getting older (mid 40s), I have a different view now
| than before. I've seen people die in real life, and it was
| horrific. Even in hospital beds with morphine drips.
|
| I don't want to die in agony, or slowly suffocating as many do.
| I'll end it before it goes too far.
|
| I think more people should actually go to hospitals and see how
| real people die, instead of the comforting movie version where
| the family is gathered around while the old person slowly falls
| to sleep. That's unfortunately not that common.
|
| If I get cancer, I'll hang on for a while until there's not
| much hope left, and then go to a place with assisted suicide.
| thr-nrg wrote:
| That's what the opiates are for.
| elemos wrote:
| Opiates only help so much, unless you're talking about
| using them to overdose.
| Madmallard wrote:
| Assuredly he is
| crossroadsguy wrote:
| I mean you need to be a citizen of a country where that is
| possible, right?
| sgjohnson wrote:
| Oh yeah, because someone buying opiates to die a peaceful
| death would definitely care about purchasing illegal
| narcotics.
|
| I'm pretty sure it's possible in every single country in
| the world, perhaps except North Korea, but I doubt it. It
| might just be more difficult.
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| No. Switzerland allows suicide 'tourism'.
| cppenjoyer wrote:
| [flagged]
| Accacin wrote:
| And even in the "comforting" movie version, it's still
| different in real life where they start gasping for breath. I
| at least thought the person was in pain or suffering somehow.
| (I did ask the Dr. that came to give us the death certificate
| and apparently it's because either the brain has shut down or
| and the body is still trying to perform it's duty or vice-
| versa and there's no pain or suffering just a part of passing
| away).
| tomatocracy wrote:
| I'm a similar age to you, and I've had up close experience of
| a few deaths too. One of my grandmothers literally went to
| sleep one evening and never woke up. (She'd been getting
| weaker over time so had been living with us, with my parents
| staying in the same room as her so we know she didn't suffer
| anything). My other grandmother had cancer in her 90s and
| opted against having chemo. She died peacefully, in hospital,
| with family around her - pretty close to the "movie version".
| She didn't need euthanasia, just a medical team who cared
| enough about her wishes to have a good death not to browbeat
| her or the family into having treatment she didn't want.
| kashunstva wrote:
| As helpful as it can be in some respects to project oneself
| into a future time and circumstance, humans are often bad a
| predicting how they would decide on serious matters until
| they actually find themselves in that situation. This is
| particularly true in cases where quality of life is at issue.
| beebmam wrote:
| Usually it's the family that makes decisions at that point
| in a hospital for a patient, and they often make
| horrendous, selfish decisions and prolong the patient's
| enormous suffering before death.
|
| Give people comfort care asap if they have a terminal
| illness, at the very least.
| clsec wrote:
| My mother told me over and over to pull the plug should
| she ever end up on life support. When I found out she was
| on life support after a heart attack I immediately
| assumed that it would be her brother's choice to pull the
| plug or not. Nope, that horrendous decision belongs to
| the kids, namely me. It was the hardest thing I've ever
| had to do but I understood and respected her wishes.
| swayvil wrote:
| I for one would like to enter that mystery with clear eyes and
| calm heart. No soul-grinding suffering for me, thanks. I've
| seen it. Crawling on the floor in your own filth, hissing and
| snapping at the nurses.
|
| I hear that starvation is good.
| acover wrote:
| Lots of degenerative diseases aren't so bad - for example
| osteoporosis. I get what you mean though, bad degenerative
| diseases.
| pokstad wrote:
| Not to mention the feeling of sucking resources away from those
| who need it to stop the inevitable. I hope I can be brave
| enough to say no to treatments when I am near, but it's cheap
| talk.
| agensaequivocum wrote:
| Please don't.
|
| > I answer that, It is altogether unlawful to kill oneself, for
| three reasons. First, because everything naturally loves
| itself, the result being that everything naturally keeps itself
| in being, and resists corruptions so far as it can. Wherefore
| suicide is contrary to the inclination of nature, and to
| charity whereby every man should love himself. Hence suicide is
| always a mortal sin, as being contrary to the natural law and
| to charity. Secondly, because every part, as such, belongs to
| the whole. Now every man is part of the community, and so, as
| such, he belongs to the community. Hence by killing himself he
| injures the community, as the Philosopher declares (Ethic. v,
| 11). Thirdly, because life is God's gift to man, and is subject
| to His power, Who kills and makes to live. Hence whoever takes
| his own life, sins against God, even as he who kills another's
| slave, sins against that slave's master, and as he who usurps
| to himself judgment of a matter not entrusted to him. For it
| belongs to God alone to pronounce sentence of death and life,
| according to Deuteronomy 32:39, "I will kill and I will make to
| live."
|
| ~ St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologiae Secunda Secundae Partis.
| Q. 64 Art. 5
|
| https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3064.htm#article5
| anonymouskimmer wrote:
| > or just plain old age where I can't stand up or whipe my ass
|
| I hope you fully intend to continue exercising, and taking
| precautions against accidents, as the first line of defense
| against such a possibility.
|
| > I can't understand people who want me to suffer until doctors
| finally stop being able to put me back together.
|
| I just don't want the state being the entity that approves or
| disapproves of your suicide. If you're going to have an
| assisted suicide I want it to be, at most, through a
| clandestine network of people who want to kill themselves. Not
| through a government process.
| parpfish wrote:
| I've often thought the same thing, but I also wonder if my
| future-suicide is just a line of mental gymnastics I put myself
| through to pretend that I have complete control over my
| mortality.
| drewcoo wrote:
| A health care system that often ignores quality of life should be
| considered a public health problem, not suicides themselves.
|
| Sometimes the suicides are justified because of diminishing
| quality of life. That's the whole point of assisted suicide.
|
| The author is a click-bait-y pop psychologist whose other
| articles don't seem very thoughtful, so I should not have
| expected much of this.
|
| https://english.elpais.com/author/daniel-mediavilla-gonzalez...
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