[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Resources for older developers?
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Ask HN: Resources for older developers?
I am early 50's and still code around half of my day. I do manage a
small team but my primary love has always been development. I'm
wondering what resources there are for us senior devs who keep
coding? My older friends in the field chat when we are able about
the cyclic nature of tech, coding, managing, mentoring and
sometimes (unfortunately) strategies for dealing with ageism. But
the pool of 40+ yr old devs is not huge in my area so I'd like
access to a online community if anyone has pointers. Thanks!
Author : rlawson
Score : 175 points
Date : 2023-05-11 13:51 UTC (9 hours ago)
| clintmcmahon wrote:
| What are your options for local Meetups? The tech focused Meetups
| in my area have a good turn out of people with a wide variety of
| experience. You have a good chance of meeting people who are
| approximately same age and experience level as you.
| superchris wrote:
| I just turned 50 in October, and have been coding my entire
| career plus. I still love and enjoy coding, and feel like I have
| more to contribute by far than I did early in my career. I have
| founded a smallish dev studio in Cincinnati (Launch Scout) that I
| started with a few other developers in 2009. I've tried a few
| different roles as the company has evolved, but eventually
| realized that I love coding and helping other people get better
| at coding. Management, organization leadership, etc, are all
| important but I've had to (with some misgivings at times) allow
| other people to fill those roles so I can do what I'm really best
| at. It can be very frustrating to see our industry fail to learn
| sometimes. I think the lack of TDD being as widely adopted, and
| the wide embrace of technologies like React that make development
| incredibly more complex than is necessary are my two big sources
| of frustration right now. But I still love learning, and love
| seeing new ways to make things much better. I still love building
| things. I'm inspired when I remember how my good friend Jim
| Weirich was actively coding and teaching right up until he passed
| away. Right now, my hope is to follow in his footsteps. I think
| there are a few of us who are like minded. A few years back I
| tried to organize a group I called Geek Geezer Guild. It might be
| time to resurrect that.
| rlawson wrote:
| I love that name. Not sure if Geek Geezer Guild is local only
| but if you decide to take it online let me know and I'd be
| happy to help.
| superchris wrote:
| Actually, it was in person the one time we had it but we
| brought in the speaker from out of town. It was Glenn
| Vanderburg, who is is a smart and fabulous human being around
| my age (possibly a bit older) and he gave a great talk. I'll
| keep noodling on what the best reincarnation would look like.
| I think we possibly recorded it, I'll have to try to find
| it...
| latchkey wrote:
| > I just turned 50 in October
|
| I'm turning 50 this month and a professional developer since I
| was about 21-22.
|
| > I think the lack of TDD being as widely adopted
|
| Hilariously, I just got -4'd (and a whole thread) for asking
| why someone didn't just write tests, instead of building some
| half baked tool to debug their websocket app. The responses
| were all sorts of absurd excuses. I'll happily take the
| negative karma, cause I know it brings some awareness.
|
| (Now I'm getting downvoted again. Oh hn, you crack me up.)
| bastardoperator wrote:
| I'm all about testing especially at the unit level but I've
| never personally seen TDD implemented successfully. I won't
| lie, I'll write my code, write my tests, refactor based on
| new learnings, check coverage stats, and PR for feedback. I'm
| also 40+ too.
| twic wrote:
| I have seen TDD done successfully, at a few companies. I
| think it's one of those things where you really have to
| learn it by doing it with people who already know it. I can
| well believe that there are people who read a blog post,
| started doing it, and got terrible results.
|
| It also requires quite a bit of discipline, or commitment,
| or conscientiousness. It's worth it, but you have to be on
| the ball. It helps a lot if everyone on the team is
| experienced in TDD and positive about it, because you can
| all support each other.
|
| It requires constant occasional investment, in building
| test infrastructure, updating older tests, etc. Often not a
| lot, and you can do it as you go. But sometimes,
| particularly for integration tests, you have to sit down
| and bash out some sort of framework to make testing
| tractable at all.
|
| And it's possible it doesn't work everywhere. In my current
| job, i write a lot of applied maths code, and i haven't
| worked out how to test-drive that, because i generally
| don't know what the result should be before i start (i
| wouldn't need to write it if i did!). Sometimes i can make
| relative assertions ("the antimatter consumption at warp
| six should be eight times the antimatter consumption at
| warp three"), and sometimes i can calculate rough bounds by
| hand ("the antimatter consumption at warp one should be
| within 20% of the inverse relativistic mass"). But mostly,
| i implement something, then run it on a lot of data, plot
| the output, and decide if it looks roughly right.
| latchkey wrote:
| You're right, I didn't 'get it' until I worked at a place
| that was all TDD and I was surrounded by people who took
| it seriously. It wasn't about 100% coverage or any forced
| mechanics. It was simply a group of people who were all
| on the exact same page working on the same exact
| methodology. Almost a 'cult' of programmers.
|
| > i haven't worked out how to test-drive that
|
| That's exactly it. I don't always see tests as being
| necessary for greenfield code. You don't have to test
| drive it. But, you should write tests. Once you figure it
| out and have things in a place where you're comfortable,
| write a test so that when you go back and make a change
| later... you know that the code will break tests and you
| can be confident of 'change over time'.
| MoreQARespect wrote:
| I've seen it done properly with unit tests on algorithmic
| or decision making code (parsers, calculators, complex,
| deterministic thinking code).
|
| I've seen it done properly with integration tests on
| integration code (CRUD, messaging, websites, etc.).
|
| However, people do insist on writing unit tests on
| integration code and when they do it, it all goes horribly
| wrong.
| twic wrote:
| I was in the middle of writing a reply to the comment you
| replied to, when i had to stop because my app was
| crashing in staging, because i had written a unit test
| for integration code.
| latchkey wrote:
| I built an app that ran on 30k+ servers across multiple
| data centers and it had an auto update mechanism because
| the app needed to be routinely updated with new features.
|
| I had an integration test that ensured that the app would
| start up correctly and that the self-update mechanism
| worked. Without those tests, any failure to start would
| cause me to have to "talk" to 30k+ servers to get it to
| install a new version of the app. (ssh into each server
| and re-install the app).
|
| Automating that communication across that many servers
| (many of which could be rebooting at any time) and
| ensuring that they all had a running version of the app,
| was difficult to say the least. How do you even track
| that the app is running? (You end up having to have a
| ping mechanism too!)
|
| Of course, I didn't start off with those tests and had to
| do things the hard way more than a few times. The thing
| is that once I added the tests, I never once had to do
| things the hard way again.
|
| So, you can certainly do things the hard way, or you can
| just write tests and be done with it and work on features
| instead.
| stcroixx wrote:
| You're old enough then to have used message boards before
| they turned into a popularity contest with voting. It's easy
| enough to just ignore those features entirely.
| layer8 wrote:
| I was about to upvote your comment but then noticed the
| contradiction in doing so. :)
| jasonlotito wrote:
| I dislike meta posts generally, but I'll give it a go so
| maybe you learn.
|
| > Now I'm getting downvoted again. Oh hn, you crack me up.
|
| Because you were whining about down votes.
|
| Generally, when I see someone whining about voting, I'll vote
| down without a second thought, regardless of the content of
| the post. Why?
|
| From the guidelines: "Please don't comment about the voting
| on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring
| reading."
|
| I know a good number of other people react this way as well.
|
| Instead of whining about getting voted up or down, instead,
| use this as an opportunity to improve your messaging.
|
| > I'll happily take the negative karma, cause I know it
| brings some awareness.
|
| Up-voted comments bring more awareness. If you truly cared
| about bringing awareness to something, you'd want to
| communicate effectively, and effective communication is
| critical in our field.
|
| Anyways, I generally hate meta comments like this one, but
| hopefully you have a better understanding of why people are
| most likely down voting this comment.
| drewcoo wrote:
| The first rule of fight club is we don't talk openly about
| the meta-rules of fight club.
| latchkey wrote:
| Great response!
|
| That said, my intention wasn't to whine. I truly don't care
| about the act of getting downvoted.
|
| What I was trying to point out is that I was getting
| downvoted in my original post, because "kids these days"
| are against the general concept of TDD. That's in response
| to this OP's comment that I quoted.
|
| Why were they against TDD? One person said it was because
| their CTO made them do 100% test coverage and that caused
| the startup to fail. Is that the failure of TDD or the
| failure of the CTO? ;-)
|
| Now you're getting downvoted? LOL! For the record, I
| upvoted you.
| ww520 wrote:
| Maybe an online group like a Discord or irc for like minded
| people to hang out?
|
| Talking with people with similar level of experience and
| knowledge definitely is amazing. I used to spend time with a few
| ex-colleagues from time to time. We had amazing discussions since
| we knew each others' experience and level of intellect. I went to
| other meetups and it's difficult to find people of similar
| background and experience.
| mcgwiz wrote:
| If you're interested, another commenter here set up a Discord
| server.
| cbushko wrote:
| I am 47 and I am the best I have ever been. I might code slower
| than people 20 years younger than me but I produce much much
| better code than they do.
|
| There is definitely ageism out there. What you don't get in
| velocity, I make up in quality.
|
| Also, I think I am wise enough to know that I know nothing and
| there is still a heck of a lot to learn!
| eb0la wrote:
| One month ago I phoned the _best_ data warehouse developer I 've
| ever met because I wanted to hire him. Turns out he's 62 - and he
| plans to stay in the company he works until he retires.
|
| I should have kidnaped and cloned him when I had the chance.
| sokoloff wrote:
| I'm in my 50s. I can't think of any category or dimension of tech
| resources that would more or less valuable for me in my 50s than
| they would be if I were in my 30s.
|
| Advice on exercise and eating responsibly might be the category
| (that you probably didn't have in mind) that would be different.
| Twenty years ago, I could play a softball doubleheader and hit
| the pub for a dinner of wings and several beers and be fine the
| next day. Now, a single game and a single beer is enough to have
| me a few steps slower the next day. Take care of your health
| (probably in your 30s as well, but especially as you get older).
| rlawson wrote:
| Yeah this 100%. I have always ran but I added weights and it
| had made a huge difference in how I feel. Also limit to one
| drink otherwise the next day is rough
| latchkey wrote:
| Stop drinking entirely. I know it is hard to not have that nice
| beer or glass of wine, but the reality is that alcohol is just
| poison.
|
| Once you stop, you realize that it feels like some great
| conspiracy. We're literally bombarded with ads and social
| pressure to drink. It is like the pressure at your job to sign
| up for a 401k because you don't know how to manage money
| yourself and you should let someone else do it for you because
| it is too much effort.
|
| As soon as I stopped drinking beer a couple years ago, my belly
| disappeared (and no more hangovers). I realized that bloated
| feeling was my body reacting to it. A couple years later, I cut
| out the rest of alcohol. The more things that I cut out, the
| better I feel. I've since cut out eating chicken too, once I
| realized it made me super gassy. Don't miss it at all.
|
| Despite the initial annoyance, it's fun to say no now at
| dinners because I know that I'll wake up in the morning feeling
| fine.
|
| It's interesting to see posts on twitter and elsewhere now
| saying the same things. People seem to be waking up to the fact
| that we just don't need to drink. I feel so much better as a
| result, especially as I age.
| sokoloff wrote:
| I have mostly stopped drinking alcohol. Our downstairs fridge
| has 4 or 5 different kinds of good-tasting non-alcoholic
| beers; there has been a real explosion in the variety and
| quality of them available over the last decade. Many are
| fairly hard to distinguish from their alcohol-laden
| counterparts and even what small difference exists is far
| from worth the hangover/sluggish feeling.
|
| When I have a drink now, it's likely a red wine with a beef
| dish and only a single.
|
| On the flip side, I think the pressure to invest in a 401k is
| a strongly net-beneficial pressure. (Roth if your marginal
| tax rate is low now, traditional or a mix if your marginal
| tax rate is high now and you think it will be lower in
| retirement.) It's not just about being a skilled investor or
| not, but the psychology and practicality of making a decision
| to save once and having that decision auto-implemented every
| paycheck has a way of preventing that retirement savings from
| turning into new cars and fantastic vacations now and a
| meager retirement nest egg later. The modest tax advantages
| and being largely judgment proof are icing on the cake, but
| the easy way to implement a disciplined process is very
| valuable.
| jebarker wrote:
| On St Patrick's Day I drank a non-alcoholic Guinness and
| was shocked that it was indistinguishable from the "real
| thing" in flavor and consistency.
|
| 401k's are also a no brainer if there's decent company
| matching.
| Dowwie wrote:
| I took care of my health in my 30s and now that I'm in my 40s
| can't sleep a full night if I have a single beer. I have no
| choice but to take care of my health.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| I limit my alcohol consumption to the weekend and don't drink
| at night.
| sanitycheck wrote:
| Nor me, but five will do the trick. (HTH, WFM, YMMV)
| Dowwie wrote:
| I guess I just haven't been trying hard enough.
| jes wrote:
| I'm 63 and have been "working with computers" since the mid 70s
| or so. It's been a great ride and it's not quite over yet.
|
| As to your specific question, perhaps you'd be interested in
| maintaining some existing open source projects whose mission
| speaks to you. If you can contribute and bring more value than
| pain in working with you, I'd expect they would come to welcome
| your help.
|
| As regards the negatives and imagined negatives of being an older
| developer, I have to say that they just don't have any sting with
| me. Nothing has any sting with me anymore.
| poulenet wrote:
| By the way, if you want to have a general, but direct
| understanding of geriatric issues--almost every city has a
| nursing home or meals on wheels program and might welcome your
| contribution as a volunteer.
| tedbeckett01 wrote:
| I'm 64 and in a senior developer role. I don't think resources
| are age specific. Their relevance is based on what level of
| experience you have, i.e. junior, senior, etc, what kind of
| development you do, front-end, backend, etc, what industry you
| work in and what kind of future work you are interested in. A
| community would be nice. I can share that I don't have the energy
| and endurance I used to have. Working long hours for a deadline
| has a higher personal cost. I'm not as quick but I have good
| judgement and I have more patience.
| FpUser wrote:
| I am an old 60+yo fart still happily coding - I design and
| develop software products for clients and for my own company.
| Maybe I am an exception but I've never felt that I need anything
| specific for my age. I also am quite comfy with young developers
| when need to interact / collaborate.
| devoutsalsa wrote:
| Speaking only for myself, I tend to stagnate in a job that
| doesn't embrace new tech or allow for much experimentation. I
| guess I'd ask what your goal is. You could stay relevant as a
| Java developer indefinitely. You might struggle if you're still
| building web apps in Perl.
| plevexier wrote:
| If someone is interested, I just created a discord server for
| older devs, no agenda other than a place to chat.
| https://discord.gg/evhUwmYd
| calderwoodra wrote:
| I'm younger than most of the folks commenting here, but I've
| noticed very clearly that my eyes aren't nearly as strong as they
| used to be. I'm wondering how older folks deal with this beyond
| just wearing glasses.
|
| Additionally, some other things I'd like to learn about: Any
| subreddits geared for older developers? Any supplements that are
| great for older engineers/knowledge workers?
| cableshaft wrote:
| Do you have a special pair of glasses for the normal computer
| distance? I ask for them every time my prescription updates. I
| have two pairs of glasses, one for driving and one for
| computer/around the house, and my headaches/eye strain have
| gone way down since I started wearing those regularly.
|
| Not sure if that helps at all. Kind of sounds like you're not
| wanting to wear glasses at all. I've been wearing mine since
| I've been six years old, so I don't really know any other way
| (tried contacts for a year and they were just too annoying to
| deal with).
| lowercased wrote:
| Larger monitors? I worked off a laptop for 15 years. I was a
| lot more mobile, and the laptop was my primary display.
|
| 2020, with travel stopped, I got a desktop and couple of large
| monitors (32"). I still don't feel terribly more 'productive'
| with multiple monitors (years of experience on single monitor
| only!) but the large monitors help a lot. Separately, since I
| primarily work on a desktop, it's harder to just 'work'
| whenever/wherever I am, so there's more of a "I'm done now"
| aspect at the end of a day. I still have laptop, and can do
| stuff on it when I need to, but over the last couple of years,
| that's been far far less than it was 10 years ago.
|
| I use glasses, but for driving only.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| I'm looking to get a 32" 4k monitor as my external monitor.
| What sort of scaling do you use? I hear most folks go with
| 150% but that puts one right back at 1440p real estate.
| lowercased wrote:
| I normally still keep it at 2560x1440. Actually, looking at
| it, it doesn't go higher (not a 4k, missed that when
| purchasing it). My other one (well, it's not 32" - 27") I
| toggle between 1680 and 2160.
|
| Even when I have 'more' real estate on the 27", I sometimes
| end up zooming the screen sometimes anyway to get closer.
|
| I've had a couple friend rave about their ultra-wides, and
| I might get just one ultra-wide to replace the two I have.
| cgh wrote:
| I had laser surgery. Not for everyone, but if you're a
| candidate (they do a comprehensive eye exam first), it could be
| some of the best money you ever spent. It was for me, anyway.
| m3047 wrote:
| Get good glasses. I haven't had Lasik because when I was young
| I could "count the rocks on Mt. Rainier!" as my wife's very
| expensive optometrist put it. I have astigmatism, and I've
| gotten rather farsighted as I've aged; all of it is correctable
| with glasses, and I've been informed it wouldn't be after
| Lasik.
|
| I wore dimestore readers for almost a decade. Finally saw the
| optometrist after discovering that after a day of screentime
| while I was driving home I'd be seeing double. Astigmatism
| correction fixed that. Went another decade before saying fuck
| it and getting aviators (photogrey, bifocal) for driving (don't
| need them to pass the driver's test); discovered how much they
| cleaned up the light flare at night. Went another five years
| before joking about rose colored glasses and ended up getting a
| lightly tinted pair; it was just a taste, it wasn't enough.
| Next time I went in I got flamin' rose colored ones in huge
| hexagonal gold frames: kinda messes with colors but so
| awesomely worth it driving at night with all the blue-tinted
| LED headlights and streetlights.
| hermitcrab wrote:
| >I've noticed very clearly that my eyes aren't nearly as strong
| as they used to be. I'm wondering how older folks deal with
| this beyond just wearing glasses.
|
| Big fonts and big monitors!
| rlawson wrote:
| For me: Standing desk has helped a lot with back/neck pain.
| Large monitors set to a more age friendly resolution. Turmeric
| for cutting down on inflammation.
| wduquette wrote:
| I have my regular glasses and my computer glasses (actually,
| two pair of those, one for work and one for home). For me, the
| computer glasses get the job done.
| miguelbemartin wrote:
| I find quite useful be part of tech communities where you can
| find inspiration from other professionals. Attending conferences,
| meetups, online communities, etc.
| nobody995765 wrote:
| [dead]
| radicalbyte wrote:
| The open source community has been that for me. Just wish I had
| more time to engage in it, especially face to face.
| hermitcrab wrote:
| I started my own 1-man software company at 39 and am still at it
| aged 57 with 3 products. I still get to write code and I don't
| have any ageism to contend with. It comes with it's own
| challenges though.
| heldrida wrote:
| I'd say IRC still using it since the 90s from Blender, the times
| where Php was hot, Javascript, nowadays mostly Rust and Bash. Of
| course I have no idea how old other people are, but considering
| the "nicknames" I see online for more then a decade or two, its
| very likely that some people are about my age if not more.
|
| Check https://libera.chat/
|
| I have to confess that I've been more conscious about my age, for
| the first time ever. I am 40 years old and a couple weeks ago,
| during a bank holiday in the UK, sunny and nice, took my
| skateboard to attempt a board slide in a grind rail on a ramp
| angled down. My first few attempts were almost there, I was tired
| and thirsty but decided to give it another go and injured my knee
| (not yet clear what it is), but I'm a bit worried that it might
| be serious and that this might have been the last big trick
| attempt on my skateboard. I've also started Muay Thai about a
| year ago and was planning to fight in the next few months.
|
| Some of my colleagues at work are as young as 17 and the oldest
| about 31 :D
|
| I've seen the internet in the early days.
|
| Feel like I'm more knowledgable but only when hot in a certain
| topic, which might be anything during a certain period or project
| duration. But think it always been like that. In case of looking
| for work, usually take some time to study the stack of the
| company but this takes a lot of effort and time and people seem
| to not have empathy and find that most are time wasters.
|
| I've never been the kind of person who goes to conferences or
| looks for code buddies and stuff, but get some contacts
| occasionally through my website https://punkbit.com or github
| account https://github.com/heldrida
|
| To summarise, you can be on IRC and forget about your age :)
| stucotso wrote:
| Older dev here.
|
| I went from junior dev / 'young hacker' type profile, to a VP and
| exec level management of SMB class orgs, also did Silicon Valley
| roles in both eng and management.
|
| My take, by far experience makes you able to solve problems in a
| way that is basically not possible taking a 'young hacker'
| approach. I can't say anything about cognitive decline other than
| forgetting my car keys - when it comes to tech the muscle memory
| seems to vastly overcome that plus some.
|
| I think what we mistake for age decline often - is time
| allocation related. I know younger devs working and sleeping at
| office (and loving it). Where I can't do this due to many factors
| - kids, family, hobbies, overall a larger desire for non work
| related time. This explains the majority of 'knowledge gap' I see
| at work. Domain knowledge, especially if the tech debt variety
| only gets one so far however. In my experience leveraging
| experience and judgement far outweighs knowing a flavor of month
| curly brace language syntax.
|
| The single biggest detriment to techie career progress I see is
| 'writing the wrong software'. Startups that go nowhere. Projects
| with no value. Solutions with no problem to solve. The 'slightly
| pessimistic' bias experience gives when writing software seems to
| catapult one -way- beyond what's possible otherwise. In fact this
| same bias I think is what enables engineers more experienced to
| drive up productivity of entire teams/orgs/corporations even.
|
| This reminds me of the old joke about a very expensive consultant
| after fixing machine with one hit of a hammer. "My price includes
| 1% cost to swinging hammer, 99% to knowing where to hit."
| Torwald wrote:
| What PG said: solve hard problems. Since you don't need the
| money, make it OSS.
| justinclift wrote:
| Did you ever get into doing Flash programming, and think it was
| good?
|
| If so, then the Ruffle project is probably worth keeping an eye
| on:
|
| https://github.com/ruffle-rs/ruffle
|
| Unlike the several previous Open Source "Flash player" projects
| that didn't really go anywhere, this one works and is very
| actively developed. :)
| riazrizvi wrote:
| I found the best resource for myself is Anders Ericsson's The
| Road To Excellence. The biggest problem I keep finding throughout
| my own career is I keep losing sight of where I need to focus to
| push my game forwards. Most of the online resources are aimed at
| the overcrowded beginner and mid-level end of software
| development, so after a certain point, you're writing your own
| syllabus to advance. Or you can just go broad, which I think is
| pointless. Ericsson highlights _deliberate practice_ , the idea
| of finding your discomfort zone, where it most matters. I think
| there is a lot more to it than he writes in the book, but it's a
| good introduction on the topic.
|
| The thing about ageism is just a simple matter of interests. It's
| reasonable to think managers are looking for the best talent, but
| it's more like the game show Survivor in that they are looking
| for talent only up to a point, people need to feel your talent
| isn't going to expose their weaknesses. So as you get better past
| a certain point, it really gets worse for you trying to break
| into new groups.
| robopsychology wrote:
| Have you considered trying to organize such a group? Set up
| discord, invite your friends you know, ask them to invite their
| friends of a similar age, then share it on HN to make it a little
| more global :)
| mcgwiz wrote:
| Another commenter on this post set up a server.
| rlawson wrote:
| Well I was hoping to take the easy way out and someone would
| have done it already. But I'm not averse to setting something
| up. I'd like an old school forum type thing - but then worry
| about spam and moderation. Still it is probably worth doing
| flakiness wrote:
| I think it's a good idea to start with your old work friends.
| Having a closed community might feel great (vs open
| "Internet" community) but it worked pretty well for me. Plus,
| your friends will appreciate the setup too.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| Not to be snarky - you're in one my friend right here. But
| something I noticed is as I get older there's less coherent
| frameworks to grip onto in life. Instead my internal framework is
| what I have left, and when I trust it enough it is enough. I
| suspect this is how maturity works on a continuum. Where at one
| time the world was organized to lift you, at a point no one is
| there beside you, you're the one reaching down to lift others up.
| You are creating the framework because you see where the holes
| are and where there needs support. As careers end not too far out
| from us, there's just no one there reaching down.
|
| I think agism is an interesting thing to dig into. It's something
| that after a lifetime of being the youngest person on the team is
| starting to poke it's head up. I suspect the answer lies in being
| picky about who you work with, avoiding the flashy places
| marketing to fill seats with bodies, and finding the places doing
| significant and advanced work without glitz. I also suspect
| remote work evens this field a bit, especially if you grew up in
| an irc / Usenet / mailing list sort of dev framework as I did.
| scrozier wrote:
| I know it's not a contest, but I just turned 65. I'm currently an
| individual contributor at a small-ish SaaS company.
|
| I've been a systems programmer, software development director at
| a well-known retailer, consultant, and (mostly) an entrepreneur
| who started four companies.
|
| I still LOVE to code. Nothing like the satisfaction, though I
| enjoyed all the other things I did too.
|
| Ageism is real in our industry. Note the comments below from
| 30-somethings who are worried their careers are over! Honestly,
| I'm pretty up-to-date with skills and knowledge. Plus I have so
| much experience, I know what works and what doesn't work, in the
| meta sense (architectures, organizations, etc.).
|
| I recently even took on a side gig with a start-up. At our ages,
| you have to know someone who knows you and knows you'll be good.
| The good news is that, at our age, we know lots of people.
| aspyct wrote:
| Over at 30-something? Damn, it's time I started enjoying
| retirement!
| kaveh808 wrote:
| Older developer here (I started my career by writing 3D graphics
| software in the mid-80's).
|
| I recently spent a number of years in semi-retirement,
| concentrating on my photography [0] and filmmaking [1] and
| thinking I was done with (and too old for) software development.
|
| Professional software development had lost its lure for me as the
| CG and VFX industry had grown into a massive factory-like
| industry. Though I had worked on some satisfying projects --
| writing the animation code used in "Jurassic Park", leading the
| R&D team for "Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within", working on "The
| Hobbit" movies -- I had lost the desire to write software.
|
| Then about a year ago a friend asked me to teach him some Common
| Lisp online. So I wrote some tutorials and as we did our sessions
| [2] I got increasingly enthusiastic about developing for fun,
| especially if I could use the tool of my choice (Common Lisp) for
| the domain of my choice (computer graphics). So I started a new
| 3D graphics project and made it open source [3]. Even started a
| blog about the journey [4].
|
| Although I don't consider myself to be up on the latest buzzwords
| and web architectures and the only scrum I'm familiar with is
| from my rugby-playing days, I have found -- rediscovered -- the
| pleasure of designing and implementing software. Surprisingly (to
| me at least), I don't feel over the hill. Yes, I probably can't
| do the marathon programming sessions I used to do, and all-
| nighters are a thing of the past, but I don't find my mind being
| any less sharp than it used to be.
|
| [0] https://www.kardanphotography.com
|
| [1] https://vimeo.com/kavehkardan
|
| [2]
| https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTA6M4yZF0MzsMlNL0N67...
|
| [3] https://github.com/kaveh808/kons-9
|
| [4] https://medium.com/@kaveh808/once-more-into-the-breach-a-
| new...
| tmilard wrote:
| I am not sure older dev need a specific type of resource to learn
| new language or skills...
| Clubber wrote:
| I was thinking this myself. I'm old and salty and I use the
| same resources as everyone else.
| dboreham wrote:
| Same web pages but with ctl-+ pressed a couple times?
| bxparks wrote:
| Ha, 125% for most things, except HN where I need to use 170%
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| I have a 13" laptop with a 1080p display, which is actually
| a higher dpi than a 27" 4k display. I have to run _at
| least_ 150% zoom to be able to see anything. Too bad
| fractional scaling sucks on linux.
| rlawson wrote:
| Definitely! Also where are my glasses?
| poulenet wrote:
| Mine are generally found on top of my head, when not in
| front of my eyes, as I refuse to get bifocals.
|
| We were having a similar discussion on a language compiler
| group about my excessively off-topic comments. I miss the
| water cooler and coffee break in person chats from the good
| old days too. I'm going to bookmark this thread to see if
| anyone has a solution. I tried creating my own Gitter
| group, back when you could, but ended up mostly talking to
| myself, like on dylan-lang/general.
|
| Good luck, I hope you find a good place to chat!
| jasfi wrote:
| I don't think so either, don't fence yourself off.
| zabzonk wrote:
| > don't fence yourself off
|
| how else am i going to keep those pesky kids off my lawn?
|
| but, i agree.
| rlawson wrote:
| Yeah - not thinking tech skills. More along the lines of
| sometimes it's nice to hash things out with people who are
| approximately same age/experience level. I love working with
| younger devs and manage/mentor and appreciate the energy and
| perspective. But at the same time it's fun to shoot the breeze
| with someone who lived through the EJB hype in Java land to
| give a specific example.
| JohnFen wrote:
| Most of my closest friends are also older developers, and we
| talk shop a _lot_.
|
| Have you accumulated a professional network of colleagues? If
| so, you might consider adopting a habit of inviting them out
| to lunch or something every so often, just to shoot the
| breeze. They may be feeling the same need for casual
| connection just as you are, and it comes with the benefit of
| keeping your professional network fresh.
| stcroixx wrote:
| I know exactly what you mean. Younger people almost all
| actually believe the hype of each fad and don't realize when
| they're reinventing the wheel. If you're surrounded
| exclusively with people like this, you'll go insane. I have
| no solution, just empathy.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > Younger people almost all actually believe the hype of
| each fad and don't realize when they're reinventing the
| wheel.
|
| I find this an almost endless source of amusement.
| pjmorris wrote:
| Gerald Weinberg formed a community of consultants that continues
| after his passing. They post and work in various places, but you
| might look up one or more of Johanna Rothman, Esther Derby, Don
| Gray, and George Dinwiddie. They've all had long enough careers
| that they, like Jerry, have taken on helping other lengthen their
| careers as part of their remit.
|
| The c2 wiki has some of the wisest, oldest, voices in software
| development, e.g. Michael Feathers, Kent Beck, and the original
| wiki author, Ward Cunningham. They are all still active in
| development and it's worth keeping up with what they have to say.
| ilaksh wrote:
| What's the URL for the c2 wiki? What does c2 stand for?
| dublinben wrote:
| https://wiki.c2.com/
|
| It apparently stands for Cunningham & Cunningham, according
| to wikipedia, named after the founder.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiWikiWeb
| bovermyer wrote:
| I'm early 40s. I can't think of any specific communities for 50+,
| or even 40+.
|
| There's the subreddit /r/ExperiencedDevs, but that's less social
| and more Q and A.
|
| It might be worth checking into Discord servers to see if there
| are any that cater to more experienced devs. If you find one, let
| me know.
| mcgwiz wrote:
| If you're interested, another commenter here actually set up a
| Discord server.
| softwaredoug wrote:
| In my 20s I worried about losing my intellectual abilities in my
| 40s and 50s
|
| What you really just lose is patience for BS :)
|
| Sure, yeah, you lose 10% of your raw intellect if you stay
| healthy[1]. You probably more than make up for it in experience
| and wisdom. But hell the thing that demotivates me is the
| recycled insanity of large organizations, egotistical tech
| executives, hype cycles, and all the other BS. Eventually you can
| learn to laugh it off, but you don't take it as seriously as you
| did when you're younger. It motivates you less. You stay focused
| on what interests you outside of whatever external factors
| happen.
|
| For some, of course though, this just leads to burnout on the
| whole field. Seeing one dumb hype cycle after another, with self-
| described visionaries chasing trends, rather than defining them,
| heartlessly laying off staff, etc, even when profitable. Its
| enough to drive you crazy if you let it.
|
| 1 - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4906299/
| javcasas wrote:
| 39 here. I'm significantly better than in my 20s. Much more
| knowledge and wisdom, a bit less raw brainpower.
|
| But I know I can force myself through hard stuff (prolog,
| category theory, ML research papers) but only if I can kick out
| instant gratification for a while (reddit, hn, videogames).
|
| I remember this week more than 10 years ago where my graphics
| card died, and had to go with this ancient card with zero
| acceleration, and no videogames. I was surprisingly productive
| that week.
| makz wrote:
| 37 here. I'm probably slower than in my 20s but somehow I
| feel smarter. I feel it takes me less time to learn new stuff
| and solve complex issues.
| gardenhedge wrote:
| In what way are you slower then?
| makz wrote:
| Reflexes, movements, manual tasks, repetitive tasks
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| I'm 43 and probably slower in the sense that I'm slower
| at producing code.
|
| I'm slower because I think more about the code I produce.
| I have a wider knowledge of the domain I work in, cross
| cutting concerns, and technical choices that I'm taking
| into account when producing code. So I arrive at a more-
| correct solution faster.
|
| I would say the tradeoff is worth it, but of course I
| would because I'm not in my 20s. If faster while missing
| more security issues, performance problems, and corner
| cases is what you want, my 20 year old self is probably
| better.
| conductr wrote:
| Agree. I've learned an approach to picking up new things,
| solving problems, and thinking things through such that I
| get it right the first time more often. It's a measure
| twice cut once type approach. Where as, my younger self
| would just start trying things and would end up getting it
| right eventually. It felt fast but took longer and might
| have had some collateral damage depending on situation.
| ilaksh wrote:
| Because a big aspect of intelligence is compression and
| decompression. As people age they have more context already
| available so there is more to draw on (automatically) when
| solving problems or learning. So less distance to get
| there.
| JohnFen wrote:
| You probably aren't any slower. One difference that I think
| I've noticed between older and younger devs is that older
| ones tend to be slower to actually write code than younger
| ones are. But the code they write tends to be closer to
| correct, so less time is needed refining and debugging it.
|
| So it can look slower up front, but over the span of the
| entire task, it's faster.
| menacingly wrote:
| Funny timing, I was just discussing with a friend that I can
| palpably feel a slight loss of edge, I know sometimes that
| I'm working through something with a little less raw
| horsepower, and I still wouldn't trade away the experience
| advantage for anything.
|
| It feels like a shift slightly away from "build the thing
| right" and toward "build the right thing". There's no sense
| racing to a destination that we don't want to arrive at in
| the first place.
| Balero wrote:
| How much of this "less raw brainpower" is due to age, and how
| much is due to potentially having a less focused mind? I have
| massively noticed issues with my concentration, and I don't
| think it's due to age, so much as to watching Youtube and
| reddit.
|
| I guess what I'm getting at is it's sometimes hard to
| untangle what changes are due to getting older, and which
| ones are due to the world changing. For me it's boredom, I
| used to have long boring summers, and get bored on weekends
| in the 90's and early 2000's. I haven't been bored in years.
| Is this because of the internet? But I'm not bored when I
| don't have access to the internet now, so maybe I just enjoy
| some peace and quiet now I'm older.
| lelanthran wrote:
| As far as maintaining focus goes, I had a lot of trouble
| doing so after 40.
|
| I wrote a small program[1] to help me maintain context
| between different projects, and I'm now more productive
| than I was in my 30s.
|
| [1] I tried all the personal task management and task
| tracker tools, even wrote a few of my own. It turned out
| that my brain works differently to how the tools want you
| to work. My new tool which works well to keep me on track
| matches how I work.
|
| IOW, now I don't have to adjust my brain to the tool, the
| tool is already adjusted to my brain's process.
| dlivingston wrote:
| Can you give some details on your tool? I've played the
| "productivity app whack-a-mole" game, too, and always
| walk away empty. I just stick with a pen and paper, but
| I'd love a digital solution.
| cushpush wrote:
| it sounds like it's gotta be catered to your workflow. i
| wonder what this is like, i work out of sketch books and
| paper+pen a lot. project context seems like a good thing
| to be able to preserve and replicate between the various
| frames. elon mentioned that context switching was one of
| the more costly plays
| lelanthran wrote:
| > project context seems like a good thing to be able to
| preserve and replicate between the various frames.
|
| Believe it or not, I actually named the executable
| 'frame'. However I'm unwilling to share it[1] until I
| have a good 5m explanation (it's all shell-based).
|
| [1] Well, announce it, anyway. It opensource anyway.
| cushpush wrote:
| I like to think we ride the same mental wave at times
| lelanthran wrote:
| > Can you give some details on your tool?
|
| I'm conflicted; on the one hand I would like to let the
| world know about it, but on the other I can see how it
| would be easily dismissed as useless when there's
| literally no docs about it.
|
| I think I shall make a small example usage (terminal
| only) to demonstrate how it helps me, then post a show HN
| tomorrow or Saturday (depending).
|
| I'll reply to your post again once I post the show HN.
| spacemadness wrote:
| Constantly needing to "feel productive" after work by
| limiting hobbies is also enough to drive you crazy after
| awhile, unless it's of real personal interest of course and
| not just to advance your career.
| radicalbyte wrote:
| I'm 42 and so much better than I was at 22, but nowhere near
| where I was as an individual at 33. I blame the latter on
| having three small children. It has taken me a long time to
| deal with being only above average instead of someone people
| viewed as a genius.
|
| Not sure if I agree with the intellect loss - I've not lost
| anything, I'm just much better at juggling multiple things and
| less good at the math-heavy detail work. However I'm still able
| pick up new skills as fast as ever.
|
| A friend of mine is in his mid-50s and has kept working on
| those things, he's as sharp as ever.
| neilv wrote:
| > _genius_
|
| Something I invented early in my career seemed like a hotshot
| thing at the time. But I now realize it wasn't that great,
| and today I could do much better in my sleep.
|
| One of the benefits of experience seems to be greater
| understanding of some things, even if that means realizing
| we're not as smart as we used to think we are.
|
| "Greater understanding" is also one theory for the lower
| tolerance for BS that some have mentioned here. Early in our
| career/life, we have less basis to recognize nonsense and to
| understand its impact. With experience, we start to realize,
| say, a single thing that's happening has orders of magnitude
| more adverse impact than we can make up with all a team's
| clever activity, and that there's no good reason for it.
|
| If, when you say "we urgently need to stop dumping toxic
| waste onto our lawn, because it's an existential threat to
| our company and everyone around it", but a very junior person
| hears only "get off my lawn, you whippersnappers!", well,
| they'll understand someday. If they survive the Superfund
| site.
| lallysingh wrote:
| I suspect catching on some sleep, having free time to let
| your mind relax, and also time to sharpen your skills will
| bring you up pretty quickly. Improved self awareness may not
| bring you the confidence you had when you were 33, and
| improved humility may also prevent the 'genius' perception,
| but you're probably already more effective an engineer now
| than 9 years ago. And even more so after you GET SOME SLEEP
| :-)
| radicalbyte wrote:
| Me too. Even without that I'm way more effective than then
| because now that I'm handicapped I had to focus less on me
| and more on the entire value chain.
|
| Ruthless focus on having the maximum value for minimum
| effort.
| xpe wrote:
| > the confidence you had when you were 33, and improved
| humility may also prevent the 'genius' perception, but
| you're probably already more effective an engineer now than
| 9 years ago.
|
| I can't speak empirically to how people's self awareness
| changes over time, but this quote rings true for me. I have
| more humility and a different kind of confidence.
|
| In particular, I am less confident about a lot of things,
| but even more aware when other people are overconfident. In
| other words, I know I don't grasp the complete reality, but
| I'm damn sure you don't either. :)
| throw1234651234 wrote:
| Nothing is impressive after you are 30. No one is impressed
| by anything other than maybe having a 100 million+ startup.
| When you are in your 20s, you are impressive and "have so
| much potential". After 30 you are just some guy who hopefully
| isn't old and incompetent as far as perceptions go. Same
| applies outside of programming as well, though I guess when
| you are in the top 5% or so, people are still somewhat
| impressed, but the bar is completely different.
| brodouevencode wrote:
| I think I've held on to my intellect (mid-40s), just have
| gotten wiser. And my tolerance for the inane, useless, and
| just plain stupid has dropped dramatically. I blame/credit
| _that_ on having small kids too.
| xpe wrote:
| Less tolerance? What do you mean?
|
| I've found my outward tolerance has had to increase. I
| still have an internal drive to shape outcomes in more
| meaningful directions. This has driven (or perhaps co-
| evolved with) the development of a wide range of skills to
| be persuasive and nudge people.
|
| People can be so incredibly narrow-minded, short-sighted,
| inspiring, and/or wise, sometimes in the span of two
| sentences. Dealing with this juxtaposition is jarring and
| requires large levels of empathy.
|
| It helps me to remember that many people vastly
| overestimate their individual influence and conscious
| awareness of what's happening with their bodies and minds.
| I regularly aspire to balance what someone wants in the
| short run, long run with what larger groups need and
| expect. Kids teach you this very directly.
| codr7 wrote:
| This touches upon something I've noticed lately, people
| skills are at least as important as technology and raw
| intelligence.
|
| I'm 46 and have been writing code pretty much every day
| since 8yo.
|
| I used to think code was the greatest thing, and would
| gladly write it for free. But I was also very arrogant,
| too impatient to negotiate, and didn't really give a damn
| about the team as a whole.
|
| These days I find writing code pretty boring, I've
| already solved most kinds of problems in several
| different ways.
|
| But putting all the pieces together, finding optimal
| strategies, negotiating with stake holders and making
| sure the team works well as a whole; I find those very
| fulfilling and exciting.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > people skills are at least as important as technology
| and raw intelligence.
|
| They absolutely are, especially in a team environment. In
| terms of the quality and velocity of the team's output,
| the competent dev who works well with the rest of the
| team is nearly always better than the genius dev who
| doesn't.
| euroderf wrote:
| > What you really just lose is patience for BS :)
|
| I bailed from coding after full-day Java debugging session that
| made no progress. Way too stressful at+after some age.
|
| So the BS was technical, not peoplal.
| lallysingh wrote:
| The problem is, so much of is BS that it's physically painful
| to keep up. Look, someone reinvented a basic lisp-ism in their
| mediocre language! Yes, new buzzwords for each part that was a
| function parameter to the original system! Yay! Now you can
| reduce your boilerplate by 10%!
|
| The system is still an unmaintainable ball of mud, but at least
| your for() loops can now have ridiculously high jitter and
| concurrency landmines thanks to multicore use on a system
| bottlenecked by disk IOPs.
|
| Part of you wants to play the curmudgeon and say "I like my old
| simple ways" instead of yelling "you idiots are spinning wheels
| on useless APIs instead of learning to do any actual
| engineering analysis on maintainability or performance." It's
| tough to balance!
| JohnFen wrote:
| > Part of you wants to play the curmudgeon
|
| Where I currently work, I'm being mentored (even at my age
| and experience!) by a developer who is in his early 70s. He
| really is a curmudgeon, but what he actually does is perform.
| His code is some of the best I've ever seen, and consistently
| outperforms that of the younger crowd. Then he just points
| out when he's using an "obsolete" technique to run circles
| around them.
| asdfman123 wrote:
| I think a lot of reasons older people encounter resistance is
| they don't want to play along with the BS.
|
| Lots of 20-somethings would have no trouble working with a
| graybeard in his 50s if he was patient, played along, and
| acted as a mentor. But they don't want to work with him if
| he's rude and dismissive, and there's more of them than him.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > But they don't want to work with him if he's rude and
| dismissive
|
| Nobody wants to work with a jerk, regardless of their age.
| jenkstom wrote:
| As a resident graybeard in my 50's, I have to say I really
| dislike working with rude and dismissive kids.
| hamdouni wrote:
| What ever is the age, nobody wants to work with a rude and
| dismissive person.
| asdfman123 wrote:
| Yep. Too many people think their age and experience gives
| them an excuse to be rude.
|
| You can be "correct" but still a jerk. If the people who
| you're rude to can influence decisions, they won't go
| well for you.
| heisenbit wrote:
| When faced with a ball of mud or spaghetti I recommend
| putting all what can be factored out in a micro-service and
| connect them via RPC to REST endpoints. Make your services
| are stateless so you can scale effortless and put an API
| gateway in the center so you can manage. As the service
| business logic isn't really stateless put your state in a
| caching server. Actually you can't trust a cache so also put
| in an opaque field into your client interface. Any problems
| you encounter can be solved however considering the number of
| services to be build a fully dynamic CI/CD pipeline is a good
| investment for potential developer demand first.
| melenaboija wrote:
| > What you really just lose is patience for BS :)
|
| 41 here and I agree with most of the comments from the elder.
| One thing though I think we older people have to acknowledge is
| that we might have changed the BS bar. It feels a bit to me
| like saying that there is no music like the one from 20 years
| ago.
|
| I am trying to be positive and that is something I say to
| myself :)
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| I'm 5 years old and I think Tchaikovsky is better than music
| today
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| asdfman123 wrote:
| I think, generally speaking, you get less "hungry" as you get
| older across the board.
|
| Sure, you could become excellent at guitar in your 40s, but
| unless you're extremely motivated, you probably don't care
| about learning it as much as a teenager would. Same goes with
| learning or becoming anything else.
|
| (Of course, everything here is _on average._ )
| softwaredoug wrote:
| I disagree, the avg age of someone starting a company is
| 42[1] :)
|
| I honestly think its truly just about filtering BS. I get
| hungry about the right things. Just like I get passionate
| about the right relationships. But not goin to drop
| everything for someone that shows the tiniest bit of interest
| me like maybe when I was young and had no idea what kind of
| relationship I wanted.
|
| 1 - https://www.entrepreneur.com/business-news/this-is-the-
| avera....
| asdfman123 wrote:
| By _hunger_ I mean the raw chutzpah and energy to do
| something bold, or commit to going in a brand new
| direction. Not necessarily the capability to do so.
|
| Older people typically have more money and connections. If
| anyone could start a company I guarantee you more young
| people would start companies.
|
| And not to mention experience. You may want to start a
| company when you're younger, but it's harder when you don't
| know what you're doing.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > By hunger I mean the raw chutzpah and energy to do
| something bold, or commit to going in a brand new
| direction
|
| I haven't actually noticed a decline in that with age.
| But what I have noticed is that the more experienced a
| person is, the sooner they're likely to spot when a new
| direction is probably a dead end and avoid going that way
| in the first place. Less experienced people tend to have
| to actually walk in that direction for a while before
| realizing it's going nowhere.
| jmull wrote:
| [flagged]
| granshaw wrote:
| Yeah try 40-50% instead
| cableshaft wrote:
| Have some data on that? This is what I've been able to
| find, and it suggests 'fluid intelligence' only drops down
| 10% from your peak in your 20s by age 54, and down 14% by
| age 64, which is nowhere near what you're suggesting (in
| fact it never gets that low according to this). And
| crystallized intelligence much slower than that.
|
| "Fluid intelligence or fluid reasoning reflects the ability
| to solve novel problems, the kind that aren't taught in
| school," he explains, "whereas crystallized intelligence or
| crystallized knowledge measures learning and problem
| solving that are related to schooling and acculturation."
|
| These different types of intelligence show different
| patterns as you get older.
|
| Crystallized intelligence "averages 98 at ages 20-24, rises
| to 101 by ages 35-44, before declining to 100 (ages 45-54),
| then 98 (55-64), then 96 (65-69), then 93 (70-74), and 88
| (75+)," says Kaufman.
|
| Fluid intelligence drops much more quickly. Kaufman reveals
| that it "peaks at ages 20-24 (100), drops gradually to 99
| (25-34) and 96 (35-44) before starting a rollercoaster
| plunge to 91 (45-54), 86 (55-64), 83 (65-69), 79 (70-74),
| and 72 (75+)."
|
| [1]: https://www.sciencealert.com/does-iq-decline-as-we-
| age-one-t...
| sarchertech wrote:
| The numbers there are just population average IQ scores
| by age. There's so many potentially confounding variables
| that the data is close to meaningless.
| inconceivable wrote:
| lol indeed, i can't even tell which position you're arguing
| for or against.
| tessierashpool wrote:
| > you lose 10% of your raw intellect if you stay healthy
|
| this is not true, and not substantiated. maybe you meant "if
| you don't stay healthy," but it's still not an accurate number,
| or even a thing which is specific enough that attaching a
| number to it could mean anything.
|
| there is some improvement in cognitive function from exercise,
| but that applies to all age ranges.
| softwaredoug wrote:
| My understanding of the research is summed up in this
| paper[1]. Which states:
|
| > The most important changes in cognition with normal aging
| are declines in performance on cognitive tasks that require
| one to quickly process or transform information to make a
| decision, including measures of speed of processing, working
| memory, and executive cognitive function. Cumulative
| knowledge and experiential skills are well maintained into
| advanced age.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4906299/
| tommaho wrote:
| As a casual reader of the thread, with little or no related
| knowledge:
|
| The years add depth and complexity to our filters for
| processing new knowledge. Is the delay measurable?
| Probably. Is that 'decline'? Maybe it looks like it by the
| simplest standards.
|
| Is there a meaningful analogy in neuroscience where simpler
| and more robust 'structures' - superficially appearing as a
| degeneration - could be a reflection of efficiency and
| optimization?
|
| I can tackle complexities in my 40s that I couldn't dream
| of in my 20s. (Maybe I'm a late bloomer.) If my 40s -> 60s
| is anything like my 20s -> 40s, mentally, I'm just a little
| bit excited to be honest.
|
| Total outsider thinking out loud. The suggestion that our
| 20's is any sort of peak (besides maybe animal / physical)
| gives me a laugh. I was a simpleton in my 20s.
| burnished wrote:
| From the neuroscience side not that I'm aware of. Getting
| old is basically the process of your body not being able
| to repair itself anyway.
|
| I think the apparent conflict resolves if you consider
| that you have learned to be a better problem solver, a
| better learner, such that a small decrease in some 'raw
| ability' is completely overshadowed by gains from
| learning.
|
| For a concrete example I'm much better at close reading
| now. Even if younger me was 10x as intelligent there are
| problems he'd bounce off that I wouldn't simple because I
| now know how to slow down and read thoughtfully.
| calsy wrote:
| Have you ever EVER heard a 40 year old say 'I was a lot smarter
| back in my 20s'??? never... more likely they'll reminisce about
| the stupid things they got up to.
|
| Your certainly not losing your intellectual abilities at 40 or
| 50, far from it.
|
| 40 and 50 year olds will just be moving on to the next stage of
| their career, using their collected experience to manage and
| pass on knowledge. Coding requires focus which is difficult to
| come by generally when you're older and juggling many
| responsibilities that you've created in your life up to this
| point like family, finances etc. You certainly don't become
| dumb.
|
| All the attributes of big tech organisations you described
| could be applied to many other fields. When you're at the
| bottom (like a smart 20 year old) and have no control, it can
| be frustrating. You can rebel against it, play the game, or go
| out and do your own thing.
| gabereiser wrote:
| You lose 10% of your ability to react and think quickly, not
| your ability to think. In fact, the older you get the more deep
| your thinking becomes. This is probably what you see when you
| think "John is slow to respond at times" (John being the older,
| 40+ developer). The reality is John remembers the last time
| someone suggested using MongoDB as a caching store and how well
| that worked out. John is recalling all those _crunchtime_
| meetings in the _war room_ because someone wrote bad code or
| the software architecturally failed. The slowness to respond is
| them weighing all the options, for which they have more in the
| catalog than you. A binary search on 100,000 objects is fast
| (22 year old), a binary search on 1,000,000,000 is slow (a 40+
| year old). Ageism is just fancy employment discrimination. I'm
| 40 and I continue to experience ageism and discrimination but I
| endure because I love what I do, others will find value in
| that, and the money is better than working at 84Lumber.
| PantaloonFlames wrote:
| Yinzer!
| tpoacher wrote:
| You reminded me of that "I'm fast at math" joke :)
|
| The joke, for those who don't know:
|
| Interviewer: What would you say is your most impressive
| skill?
|
| Candidate: I am _ridiculously_ fast at math.
|
| Impressed, the interviewer wants to test this: "Ok then,
| quick, what's 347+578?"
|
| Candidate (confidently): "5!"
|
| Interviewer: "w ... what? That's not correct! That wasn't
| even close!"
|
| Candidate: "Yes, but it was ridiculously fast!"
| gardenhedge wrote:
| I've come across good and bad devs at all ages but the best
| have always been older than me.
| MonaroVXR wrote:
| > What you really just lose is patience for BS :)
|
| Well, I lost this way earlier than that already hahaha. Totally
| agree with your comment by the way.
| rlawson wrote:
| Yes this exactly. Once you've been through a few cycles of
| madness it is fun to chat with others who have as well (plus
| helps you keep your sanity and perspective).
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| My biggest "problem" was when I had kids. I used to spend a lot
| of my free hours not directly working, but thinking of work
| problems. So I'd be playing a video game, at a party, or
| whatever, but in the back of my head I was also thinking of
| work.
|
| After kids those unpaid thought cycles are spent on how I can
| help my kids grow into better adults.
|
| It actually forced me to change my work habits a bit. Before I
| could be less methodical about working through a problem
| because I had lots of spare brain cycles outside of work. But
| now I have to work through problems more diligently.
| kqr wrote:
| I have a similar experience except with a different outcome.
| All that thinking about how to be a better human somehow,
| strangely, is translateable to better (software) product
| development. I spend more time understanding people and their
| desires and less time chasing shiny technology.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| This is what is me as I head into my 50's. I always knew it was
| BS, but now I can't ignore it any more. Corporate culture
| garbage drives me absolutely to depression now, and I can't
| force myself to care any more. I love teaching and mentoring
| and leading and programming and all those skills. But I can't
| muster up to energy to give a crap about anything other than
| the work itself, the team, the product, etc. I more clearly see
| the processes that are set up simply to look busy, and I can't
| force myself to participate. It's telling me at some core level
| it's time to strike out on my own. But, once you've seen the
| fnords, you can't unsee them.
| cableshaft wrote:
| Hello fellow Discordian! Ewige Blumenkraft und ewige
| Schlangenkraft!
|
| I've also seen the fnords. Makes it difficult to drag my ass
| to work sometimes.
| cgh wrote:
| I quit my job at a Silicon Valley BigCorp two years ago,
| almost to the day, for these very reasons. Luckily, we are in
| a position where I could just do what I wanted during this
| time, mainly go rockclimbing and help my wife in our
| worryingly enormous garden. But I miss certain things, like
| being in the room (whether physically or virtually) with a
| bunch of smart people and solving problems. And of course I
| miss the money. But I'm just not sure I can take the BS
| anymore.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| I'm working on building my own quant/stat arb/HFT trading
| fund with a few folks from my career as partners, self
| financed. I think that's the out. I love what I do but
| investors, customers, hierarchy, and the band wagon that
| follows I think is the genesis of a lot of the BS.
| uptownfunk wrote:
| So what is motivating to you in your career?
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| It's a tradeoff. Most 20 somethings think they are better than
| they really are because they lack experience. Having decades of
| experience makes you better.
|
| I'm 48, I'm definitely very much improved as a programmer and
| engineer relative to when I was 28. You think you know
| everything when you are 28. When you are 48, you realize you
| had a lot to learn back then. Anyway, I'll be doing this for at
| least another 30 or so years. As long as my brain works, I'll
| be using it.
|
| The reason old people become slower is not necessarily that
| they are old but because they retire and stop using their
| brains. Not using your brain is bad for your brain. Age related
| deterioration is of course inevitable. But you can slow things
| down a lot by just keep on using it and staying active.
| mstudio wrote:
| If one exists, I'd love to be part of it. Many of these comments
| really resonate with me (in my 40s as well). I find that I'm more
| effective as a developer now than I was years ago - partly
| because I know myself better. I understand that I love building
| things hands-on while collaborating with other engineers,
| designers or stakeholders. I understand that, in the end, people
| are using these products we build and that I need to keep that in
| mind.
|
| I also know the things that I either do not enjoy or am not good
| at, like management. I'm happy to keep coding for as long as my
| brain will allow it.
| [deleted]
| davidschof wrote:
| I worked in management from 25 and returned to an individual
| contributor development role at 43. There are lots of resources
| for developers, although not sure any of them are focused on the
| fact my age is a little greater than the average age individual
| developer.
| danesparza wrote:
| I'm a developer in my late 40's. Just like a LOT of other
| developers, I have a stackoverflow profile, a set of (active)
| personal Github repos, and a presence on LinkedIn.
|
| I love clear, to-the-point video instruction. I don't think it's
| age-specific, but I really like "Tech World with Nana" on
| Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@TechWorldwithNana
|
| Hacker News (this site) is where I follow industry trends, along
| with Ars Technica, and TechCrunch. Again -- nothing out of the
| ordinary.
|
| What might be unusual to younger devs is that I really enjoy
| mentoring. It reminds me why I got into this business, and
| sharpens my communication skills. I would encourage any senior
| dev or manager to seek out mentors to work with.
|
| Oh! And don't be afraid to pick up hobbies. I picked up guitar,
| camping, and weight training in my 40's. You're never too old to
| learn something -- it starts with a choice.
| rlawson wrote:
| Yep - hobbies and exercise is huge. I added weights and it has
| made a lot of difference. Also have to be more aware of my
| posture and eye/head position to avoid back/neck strain (a
| standing desk helps a lot)
| JohnFen wrote:
| > And don't be afraid to pick up hobbies
|
| Oh, so much this. I've always had hobbies, but the older I get,
| the more value I get from them. They improve my outlook and
| quality of life generally, but are also of professional value.
| Even ones that seem unrelated to development (backpacking, etc)
| make me a better developer by teaching me new ways of thinking,
| new skills (it's amazing how many unrelated skills turn out to
| be more related than it seems), and let me unplug my dev brain
| and exercise the other parts.
| JohnFen wrote:
| I'm an older (than you!) developer, but I have no special
| resources related to that. But for what it's worth, here's my
| experience.
|
| I've found that nothing is really much different being an older
| developer compared to being a younger one, aside from two things:
| I have a lower tolerance for bullshit, and I have a much better
| handle on what my time is actually worth to employers.
|
| While ageism is certainly a thing that has to be taken into
| account, I personally haven't found that the problem is
| unmanageable. I handle it by ensuring that my skillset is up-to-
| date (same as we have to do throughout our careers anyway), and
| by recognizing that certain parts of our industry will never
| welcome older developers. I don't bother with those companies,
| but they are a minority limited to certain cultural "islands". I
| am certain that I have been passed over with certain jobs because
| of my age, but nonetheless have never had difficulty finding good
| jobs that pay what I'm worth.
|
| I also have developed a standard comeback when younger devs make
| disparaging comments about my age: "take a good look at me,
| because you will be me sooner than you think".
| [deleted]
| GeorgeTirebiter wrote:
| "take a good look at me, because you will be me sooner than you
| think".
|
| I add: "IF you are Lucky!"
|
| (Are you feeling lucky, punk? ;-) -- Thanks Dirty Harry! This
| part does NOT get voiced!)
|
| Seriously, agree completely with this comment. I'm, ahhh, 'more
| experienced' than many here, if experience is measured in
| years.
|
| And that's my top suggestion: make sure that 10- or 20-years'
| experience is NOT 10x or 20x 1-year experience. Aggressively
| keep learning, and improving. e.g. today if you're NOT using
| Copilot -- why not?
|
| Except as noted, re: ageism, it has only gotten better for me
| as a dev. Enjoy and celebrate that.
| kokanee wrote:
| I'm in my mid-30s and facing the reality that I do not want to
| be a manager, but have a hard time picturing myself coding into
| my 60s. I'd be curious to hear more about what in your eyes
| separates "certain parts of our industry" that aren't suitable
| for older devs from those that offer good jobs which pay what
| you're worth. What kind of attributes would you look for in a
| company or product if you were searching for a job right now?
| rlawson wrote:
| Look for companies that make money off the real world (not
| software) but need software to run. Pay is less but stability
| and work/life balance much better.
| JohnFen wrote:
| Yes, I too have learned that I'm happier being a dev than
| being a manager.
|
| This is very much broad-brushing and there are plenty of
| exceptions, but in general I've found that startups, FAANG-
| style companies, and companies that seem more focused on
| making products as a vehicle for using new technologies (as
| opposed to using appropriate technologies to make better
| products) tend to have a greater prejudice in favor of
| younger developers.
|
| If such a company interests me, I'll absolutely apply to work
| for them -- but I don't really expect I'll hear back from
| them past the initial interview.
|
| Although I have had good experiences as an older dev working
| for software companies, I've found that I have the best
| experiences working for companies that aren't overtly
| software. My current job, for instance, is at a company that
| makes industrial equipment. The software isn't the product,
| it's one of the components that makes the products work. It
| involves several currently-fashionable technologies, though,
| such as machine learning, so it's not like I'm working in a
| technological backwater.
|
| My general approach, really, is more about setting proper
| expectations in my own mind rather than trying to pinpoint
| "older dev friendly" companies. If a company is doing
| something interesting, and appears to be the sort of place
| I'd enjoy working at, I'll toss my hat in the ring even if I
| suspect they'd consider me to be too old. I just won't get my
| hopes up with them.
|
| I've also found that a big indicator is when I physically
| visit their offices and see the makeup of the other devs
| working there. Even a casual glance can reveal much in terms
| of how youth-oriented the company is. If I'm the oldest
| person in the building, they're probably not going to hire
| me.
|
| I don't know if any of this helps. I'm a believer in not
| prejudging things too hard and don't really let my perception
| of their age culture be a significant factor in my decision-
| making. There are no hard lines here, and I have been hired
| and welcomed into companies where I was the oldest dev in the
| place by a large margin.
| kokanee wrote:
| Thanks for your thoughts! Appreciate it.
| emmender wrote:
| This is a great question. and I have worked at multiple
| startups, and mega-corps. The only attribute I would look for
| is the engineering culture in the team or org you are
| joining. I found the best orgs to have a cultural tone set by
| engineer-turned managers who remain hands-on and value
| excellence in engineering.
|
| Majority of managers are average coders who have moved on to
| management. Such managers look down at engineers with disdain
| (or as code-monkeys) or worse they see themselves higher in
| the status hierarchy and impose themselves on the engineers
| or god-forbid, they see themselves as technically better and
| interfere in technical decisions. this leads to a poor
| engineering culture in the org as excellence in engineering
| is not even measured or appreciated
|
| granted, the cultural tone of a team or org is difficult to
| gauge from outside and during the interview process.
| asdfman123 wrote:
| > take a good look at me, because you will be me sooner than
| you think
|
| Genius.
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| The tech landscape is infinitely wide at this point. Are you
| looking to up-skill in your current area or a new area? For me, I
| always look to younger people. They are always the future for a
| fast moving industry. In particular, I grew up in the era when
| you bought huge 500 page books to learn about new technology. In
| large part, that is dead. You can learn most things online, but
| not as deep.
|
| Is it possible to mentor young people outside your team? (I say
| outside your team specifically to avoid manager-worker
| conflicts.) It is a real eye-opener to spend time with young
| people. Just watching the _way_ they learn can teach an old dog
| new tricks.
|
| Last: Is there something on Reddit? If not, how about starting
| it? I am sure there are lots of devs in their 50s+ looking for
| somewhere to congregate online.
| avgDev wrote:
| I'm not sure I agree with learning from books being dead. Stuff
| online is extremely shallow and paid courses generally make me
| slower than a book.
| JohnFen wrote:
| I agree. Books are still where its at. Online resources tend
| to be better for reference than for learning.
| softwarebeware wrote:
| There is r/ExperiencedDevs but some people join with a
| definition of "experienced" as two or three years.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > a definition of "experienced" as two or three years.
|
| Whaa? If you only have two or three years, you're still a
| newborn baby. :D
| lowercased wrote:
| Was going to mention that subreddit. A younger friend
| mentioned it to me. I've got... closing in on 30 years of
| software dev experience, and he's got... 4? 5? He's applying
| for 'senior' type positions, and I've tried to counsel him to
| set sites a bit lower. There are def some companies that will
| label you senior at 2-3 years of experience, but I don't
| think he'd do well at those sorts of companies anyway.
|
| I was on a consulting team years back and everyone was
| 'senior developer' - I had 26 years, another guy had... 4
| years. I always thought it was weird to be presenting us to a
| client as being on the same level, and one client mentioned
| it to me behind the scenes, but... wasn't my call.
| phlipski wrote:
| I was the youngest engineer (by quite a bit ~ 10 years) in my
| team for a good decade. Which in hindsight I probably should have
| left earlier than I did. But from that experience what I did
| notice is that there were two types of older engineers. Those
| that continued to WANT to learn new things and those that were
| intellectually lazy and essentially said, "We've never done that
| before." Well the intellectually lazy all got laid off over time.
| The guys who wanted to learn new things generally kept finding
| ways to stay relevant and add value to the organization. I think
| it's simple as just - never stop learning!
| silisili wrote:
| I've always imagined most of this site was 35+, but perhaps I'm
| wrong on that? I know it definitely skews older than Reddit,
| Blind, etc.
| mathgladiator wrote:
| I am 40+ and came to the realization that I don't want to work
| for a big company ever again.
|
| So, I am building a different kind of company. Currently, it's
| all pi in the sky with respect to revenue. I'm changing that
| soon.
| richardw wrote:
| Just turned 50, moved countries to Sydney. Send 3 CV's and all
| bounced. Yet the 20-something boss I currently have (and who is
| brilliant) moves mountains to try keep me. I don't code a lot
| (mostly architecture) but I reduce technical risk and add value
| in a very wide area. And the most interesting and valuable work
| I've done has been the last couple years.
|
| That's okay, I get it. Older guy and it's hitting HR and they
| have checkboxen. I'll figure it out.
| cc101 wrote:
| I've been programming since 1968. I'm still pretty good, just not
| as fast. I feel that I was at my best in my late 40s. My decline
| from that was very slow.
| mariopt wrote:
| I suppose Senior developers, my self included, enjoy fast paces
| straight to the point learning resources. One of my favorite
| websites is https://egghead.io/ but some people do complain about
| behind a bit too fast. Overall, there is heaps of great tutorial
| on youtube.
|
| If you're looking for an online community mostly you'll be facing
| many people who are learning how to code. I would choose a
| specific software and look for paid/free courses that have a
| community on slack/discord. Regardless of your age, sometimes
| changing the company you work with can help a lot because you'll
| on the hunt for other companies using modern stacks. You could
| also try to convince your company to adopt new tech. Do not be
| afraid to join younger communities, there days people don't
| really care about your age as long as you have things in common
| and a beginner spirit.
| sanitycheck wrote:
| I do agree with your general point and I clicked, hopefully,
| and... Oh, yikes, video! No I want my learning resources to be
| a lot faster than videos.
|
| Books are fastest, sadly they're often out of date by the time
| they're published these days.
|
| I said "these days", I think that qualifies me as a grumpy old
| man.
| cgh wrote:
| I think the OP is talking more about community rather than pure
| learning resources. It's not like you need different resources
| at 50 than you do at 30. It's just fun to shoot the shit and
| compare war stories and strategies with one's peer group, I
| guess.
| EMM_386 wrote:
| I am close to your age range. I have 22 years of C#, 27 years of
| HTML/JS/CSS, and I am still coding.
|
| I took this job as a remote IC with a _very_ small team of senior
| devs who could help them replace their old, highly complex but
| aging system. From scratch. I am lead on large portions of it and
| I contribute a lot of code on all sides.
|
| I often find myself with the "get off my lawn!" attitude when I
| see a lot of the new stuff. When SPAs came along I thought it was
| crazy. Now I'm lead on an Angular project with C# APIs.
|
| I haven't run into ageism yet but that has mostly come down to
| having this much experience. Hopefully, companies will hire based
| on who can understand all of this complexity and get the job
| done, not how old you are. In that case, it's a benefit.
|
| I want to code. That's what I enjoy. I never wanted to manage. So
| far, so good.
|
| I don't have any resources to provide to link up with other
| developers our age. But they are out there. For example, on HN,
| since I am one :)
| tedbeckett01 wrote:
| I'm 64 and in a senior dev role. I'm not sure what you mean by
| resources. Resources for keeping up with and improving at coding
| vary by what stage of developer you are at, i.e. junior, mid-
| levead l senior,
| xipix wrote:
| Strategies for dealing with ageism would be useful indeed. But
| otherwise, besides knowing shortcuts to increase zoom/font size
| for changing eyesight, age brings no special needs.
| rlawson wrote:
| I think it's the social aspect that is what I am after - not so
| much specific tech side resources, although I always appreciate
| learning more.
|
| The ability to freely discuss the pros/cons of the tech
| industry from a coder perspective with people that have been
| through a couple of industry cycles is both fun and
| therapeutic.
| belter wrote:
| The Ageism present in the Software Development industry, is a
| sign of its still ever present immaturity.
|
| While in any other field...Who want's their house designed by the
| youngest, freshly graduated Architect? Who wants to be operated
| by a Surgeon on it's 2nd heart operation? Who wants the Junior
| Partner Lawyer supporting them on their court attendance?
|
| What would the Abel prize winners think?
| https://abelprize.no/winners
| ElfinTrousers wrote:
| Ironically Abel himself died at age 26. Even Amy Winehouse
| lived longer.
| grepfru_it wrote:
| Wrong professions.
|
| Who wants the old man mechanic?
| belter wrote:
| Wrong example: [1] - "Their years of experience means that
| they know how to look for and address issues with cars in
| such a way to keep the car running for years. If you want to
| reduce future maintenance, a knowledgeable mechanic is the
| smart choice"
|
| [1]. "The Importance of Hiring a Good Mechanic" -
| https://www.postonmotorcompany.com/hiring-a-good-mechanic
| JohnFen wrote:
| Me.
|
| Or, more properly, I want the most experienced professional
| (for anything) that I can find and afford. Age is a rough
| proxy for that, but it isn't ironclad.
|
| I'd prefer the 60 year old who has been working on cars since
| they were 20 over the 30 year old who started at the same
| age. But I'd also prefer the 30 year old who has been working
| on cars since they were 20 over the 60 year old who started
| at 55.
| voncali wrote:
| [dead]
| tasteofmaple wrote:
| I'm 69 years old and I started coding in earnest 6 years ago.
| Love doing it. Last year I retired from my day job and I've been
| coding everyday for 6 or 7 hours on personal projects. I find my
| mind has become sharper and really good at problem solving. The
| only issue I have with coding is it's somewhat of a solitary
| existence. If I had taken up golf I would have buddies to play
| golf with. With coding I sit in front of my Mac for 6 or 7 hours,
| and I have no one my age to talk about coding with.
| rlawson wrote:
| Do you mind me asking what got you interested in coding and
| what kinds of things do you work on?
| tasteofmaple wrote:
| I enjoy coding... there's feeling of personal power that
| coding gives you, and I like problem solving. I've been
| working on 2 saas oriented projects, one focused on real
| estate industry, and the other on support for entrepreneurs
| or would-be entrepreneurs.
| voncali wrote:
| [dead]
| JodieBenitez wrote:
| Why would resources for older developers be any different from
| resources for younger developer ?
| emmender wrote:
| I am 53 and remain an individual contributor and code about 50%
| of my time. The rest of the time is spent in reviews, debugging
| problems, operations etc. Some thoughts.
|
| 1) you have to _really enjoy_ crafting code, and building things.
| then, age wouldnt matter at all, ie, good, well designed and
| crafted code doesnt respect age.
|
| 2) you can look back at all of the things you have built with
| pride and fondness of a parent looking at their children (cicero
| said this on old age as well)
|
| 3) set the ego aside and focus on the craft.. easier said than
| done because the young-uns sometimes throw their weight around
| and that grates
|
| 4) with experience, you can see through BS, and poor designs off
| the bat, ie you have better intuition for systems in general
|
| 5) it is likely you have improved EQ which helps with working
| with others regardless of age
|
| 6) you have to enjoy the process of continuous learning which is
| rather difficult at a later age - but the nature of our work
| involves rapid change. what helps with age is that we have built
| models and many a time, the new tech just recycles older ideas
| and algorithms.
| rlawson wrote:
| Yes these are great points! Also a very rewarding thing for me
| is to see people I have mentored/helped/managed grow in their
| careers. I worked with them when they were wee developers and
| now they are senior staff level
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