[HN Gopher] Fuck Being Productive
___________________________________________________________________
Fuck Being Productive
Author : memorable
Score : 257 points
Date : 2023-05-11 08:49 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (dostoynikov.bearblog.dev)
(TXT) w3m dump (dostoynikov.bearblog.dev)
| scaramanga wrote:
| Dude, you are absolutely not being productive in the 12 hours of
| indentured servitude. You need to find a new job.
|
| The people at your current job aren't your friends. They've let
| you arrange to give away a full 50% your life (most of what's
| left must be occupied by sleep, pissing, shitting, eating, and
| paying bills). Not a single person in your life has said anything
| or tried to get you out of the office earlier?
|
| You should have at least one friend who cares about your
| wellbeing and doesn't view you as an object to be exploited
| without limit.
|
| Good luck, my dude.
| joenot443 wrote:
| I would guess the work they're doing isn't what you'd expect.
| From their site -
|
| > Majored Japanese Language at university currently working at
| a Japanese company as a Japanese translator in Turkey and also,
| at the same time, self-studying web development slowly as it is
| my dream to be a developer.
|
| If they're working towards the dream many of us are blessed
| enough to be living right now, I have a hard time telling them
| to slow down. I admire that kind of work ethic, honestly.
| sesteel wrote:
| This deserves to be upvoted more. Trading your life for
| financial gain has diminishing returns. You'd think everybody's
| goal would to be free of servitude.
| missedthecue wrote:
| The point where the diminishing returns start happening is
| actually quite high however. Especially if you don't earn a
| US salary.
| thealchemistdev wrote:
| People aren't trained to think that way, even though we're
| surrounded by hints. For example, what do we call the
| strongest enemy in a level?
| tiedieconderoga wrote:
| The problem is that you need a lot of money to be free of
| servitude.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Servitude is thinking that you do.
| feoren wrote:
| Go tell that to the single mom working two minimum-wage
| jobs just to feed and house her kids. Go tell that to the
| homeless person. To the recent grad barely paying off the
| interest on his student loan that he took because he "had
| to go to college". Come off it.
| justnotworthit wrote:
| Most people's goal is security, I wager. But here's a quote
| you might like:
|
| "Self-sufficiency is the greatest wealth of all, and the
| greatest fruit of self-sufficiency is freedom." - Epicurus
| dougmwne wrote:
| And then for this person to feel all this emotional pain over
| using their meager free hours training themselves to be even
| more profitably exploited. Our prisons really are created in
| our own minds.
| birdyrooster wrote:
| Some people need to go to school, get certifications, do
| extracurricular activities, work unfulfilling jobs... just to
| give themselves permission to try for a better position. I
| have never understood this need for this rigor. It's
| upsetting watching my friends fall distantly behind me
| because they won't accept the risk of failing interviews or
| jobs (especially those with no children and have a
| significant savings). I have been fired multiple times and
| failed many interviews, and it was all worth it. I can sense
| their frustration with the "luck" I have had but it was all
| about taking those risks early on.
| PM_me_your_math wrote:
| You have working hours and you have non-working hours. I don't
| see the upside in punishing yourself for not working during non-
| working hours. Those hours are for you. The proper way to look at
| this is 'be productive during the time you've allotted.'
| sremani wrote:
| 4HL. Consistency space guy finds out rules are written by Payoff
| space guys.
| zwieback wrote:
| Yeah, just wait till you're in your fifties and feel like you're
| also running out of time to do things! For example: "how many
| more growing seasons do I have to try this or that tomato" or
| "should I learn Spanish?". On the plus side kids are out of your
| hair.
| Scubabear68 wrote:
| My 11 and 15 year olds would like to have a word with you.
| tasuki wrote:
| > On the plus side kids are out of your hair.
|
| That almost sounds like you did not really enjoy raising your
| kids? I find that's a taboo thing to say, and if that's what
| you meant, I appreciate you saying so.
| zwieback wrote:
| Hmm, maybe a bit too black and white, there are good and bad
| times. What I'm surprised to find out is how much I enjoy
| having more time and less drama around the house. And less
| clutter.
| dudul wrote:
| So it's either having kids is 100% amazing all the time or
| you hated having them?
|
| Like most things in life, there is a middle ground you know.
| [deleted]
| sharemywin wrote:
| or you waited until you were 40 to have kids.
| r00fus wrote:
| Even if you decided to pull the trigger at 33 (closer to
| median age), your 17yo + younger siblings are still taking
| 80% of your non-work free time (assuming you haven't
| outsourced that).
|
| IMHO Kids aren't really "adults" till about 27-30 given the
| complexity of society. If you happen to have special needs
| kids, they will take even longer.
| myth_drannon wrote:
| Robert De Niro just had his 7th and he is 79. So not
| everything is lost if you didn't have a chance in you 40's...
| mrguyorama wrote:
| Ah yes we are all as wealthy and have the same resources as
| a famous hollywood actor.
|
| The physical act of creating a child is so easy many people
| do it by accident. Raising a child is an enormous task.
| zwieback wrote:
| Vaguely related anecdote, an acquaintance was playing
| with his kids at a playground in Central Park and ended
| up chatting with DeNiro on a parkbench for an hour. My
| buddy had no idea who he was talking to, which apparently
| was refreshing enough for DeNiro that he proposed setting
| up a playdate (which didn't happen though).
| mattpallissard wrote:
| > Ah yes we are all as wealthy and have the same
| resources as a famous hollywood actor.
|
| People from all walks of life have been raising children
| since, well, forever. Rich, poor, smart, dumb; nearly
| everyone figures it out.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| Pretending that all those people have had equal success,
| or that poorer parents don't have a significantly worse
| time of it than more affluent groups is not helpful.
|
| There is A LOT of child neglect here in the states, and
| plenty of children literally do not make it out alive.
| mattpallissard wrote:
| True. It's also true that most children aren't neglected.
| The point I'm trying to make is most people raise most
| children decently in most circumstances. That you don't
| need to be rich to do so.
| FredPret wrote:
| As an adult second-language learner, my advice is not to even
| bother learning a second language unless you _have_ to, or
| would _love_ to. You can get proficient quickly, but much of
| the language 's beauty will lie in the subtleties which will
| take decades of effort to learn.
|
| And there's the accent, which you'll never lose.
|
| The best time to learn a language is between 0 and 10 y.o.
| zwieback wrote:
| I'm German and have lived in the US for the past 30 years,
| still have traces of an accent. I don't care, though, having
| a Germlish accent in Spanish wouldn't stop me from chatting
| up all the Spanish speakers around me.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| At some point it dawns on you that unless you make some special
| effort, you're only gonna see your favorite movie or listen to
| your favorite album or eat your very favorite food or see such-
| and-such person or go to [place you really like] a
| _disturbingly small_ count of times before you kick it.
| SeanAnderson wrote:
| http://www.paulgraham.com/vb.html Exceptionally relevant :)
| geodel wrote:
| True.
|
| At least for me I will say that _disturbingly small_ number
| is probably good enough for practical purposes. All favorite
| thing, people, food are just snapshots in memory and
| revisiting them in physical world did not feel as great as my
| mind imagined.
|
| I tried a few of those past favorite things and they were
| fine but nothing like best moments or some such. Same with
| people, neither they nor I am same person as before.
| 52-6F-62 wrote:
| Good point. I listen to my favourite albums basically on
| repeat. I sometimes feel like I've grown closed-minded--but I
| like your perspective better. Gonna go with that.
| dostoynikov wrote:
| I'm the one who posted that post on bearblog and I want to make
| something clear. My working hours are from 7:30-17:30. But
| transportation takes an hour in the morning and an hour(at least)
| in the evening. So I added that two hours too because those two
| hours are no use to me. I can't do anything in those
| transportation hours. I might not have made this part clear,
| sorry for that.
|
| But yeah, I know that working time is still too much. But I don't
| live in a country where I can find a job whenever I want. I have
| to stick to it because I have not much choice.
| isoprophlex wrote:
| What is your timezone, and area of expertise? Maybe you can try
| getting into a remote gig, with less crazy working hours? We
| use a lot of offshore labor at $CORPO_OVERLORD, at somewhat
| more normal work hours.
|
| Best of luck, hang tight..!
| dostoynikov wrote:
| I live in Turkey and expertise in Japanese translation. Tho,
| I'm self-studying web development via The Odin Project. But
| my progress is quite slow due to my work-life balance. I
| haven't heard of $CORPO_OVERLORD before, tho. What kind
| company is it?
| arrjayh wrote:
| Is it because of visa constraints? Working hellish hours is
| unhealthy and often highly counterproductive.
| dostoynikov wrote:
| No. I work in my home country but there is a high
| unemployment rate in my country. Opportunities are quite
| limited.
| arrjayh wrote:
| How does entrepreneurship look? Often if there's high
| unemployment there's a window to be the job maker.
| dostoynikov wrote:
| That "sounds" hopeful but I don't have any fund and know-
| how knowledge. I might go for entrepreneurship way but it
| will also require lots of preparation in terms of ideas,
| funds and technical know-hows.
| arrjayh wrote:
| A lot of know-how is learned on the job. What are the
| jobs? Well, look and see what your day-to-day looks like
| and if there's a service you could provide to make it
| better.
|
| If you're commuting 2+ hours a day buying a bus and
| helping other commute for $ could be a start :-). All
| just ideas, though.
| arrjayh wrote:
| Also, in terms of funds, I understand that can be a
| constraint especially if you can't finance things. You
| can always try to work and band with your community to
| solve problems. Group funding is always in option.
| sparrish wrote:
| Entrepreneurship... and you thought working 10-hour days
| was a lot. <grin>
| arrjayh wrote:
| Hehe yeah work never actually ends but it's a different
| beast.
| badpun wrote:
| > Often if there's high unemployment there's a window to
| be the job maker.
|
| How so? On the one hand, there's plenty of unemployed,
| desperate people, so you can probably get them as
| employeed for very cheap - but, on the other hand, people
| are in dire economical condition, so it's hard to sell
| them anything. I guess, producing stuff for the
| international market could work well though.
| arrjayh wrote:
| > so you can probably get them as employeed for very
| cheap
|
| Not everything is about money or paying for things.
|
| >but, on the other hand, people are in dire economical
| condition, so it's hard to sell them anything.
|
| Buying and selling things is a very American construct
| and tells like 1/4 of the story when it comes to trading.
|
| I grew up in a rural area of the US. Lots of folks are
| poor but wealthy beyond measure. Bartering goes a long
| way and only works if you provide a service that is
| valuable ;-).
| tobbe2064 wrote:
| Dude, you are a thinking like an idiot. Spend some time with
| your wife FFS. Who cares about being productive or playing
| fucking video games. Your wife ranked at the bottom of you list
| next to generic friend. You need to reconsider whats actually
| valuable to you. You need some soul searching
| dostoynikov wrote:
| I'm already spending time with my wife. I didn't create that
| list in a particular order. We have a quite supportive
| relationship and I'm quite thankful for it. Maybe I might
| have sounded over-depressed in the article.
| nebulousthree wrote:
| Try being a little more understanding. Psychological prisons
| are almost never obvious to oneself. It takes time,
| especially dead time, to recognize the impact of our words
| and behaviours on ourselves and the people we surround
| ourselves with. Perhaps this post was the first major step
| for this person after much internal deliberation.
| oifjsidjf wrote:
| This guy has everything backwards: he doesn't realize it's his
| insane long wageslave work hours that are the problem, not those
| extra 3 hours.
| jurassicfoxy wrote:
| I would be more generous and I think he's very much aware of
| it, since he wrote about how awful his commute is. It's a
| nearly insurmountable obstacle for most folks.
| TechBro8615 wrote:
| Yeah. Anyone who is blessed with this kind of motivation needs
| to quit their job and work full time on "being productive"
| toward their own goals. As someone with technical skills they
| have a high-leverage opportunity as a maker and builder. They
| shouldn't waste it by selling it to someone else for pennies on
| the dollar.
|
| Granted if you have a family to provide for, and a life outside
| work, then you might be "working to live," and entrepreneurship
| is a needless risk that won't bring additional satisfaction.
| But if you're at the point that you're stressing over your
| productivity during the three hours of time you have to
| yourself each day, then that probably means you don't have much
| of a life outside work anyway. So it would be better to
| eliminate the work that is draining your energy, and replace it
| with pursuit of your own goals. Then you'll have those three
| hours to yourself, _and_ you 'll have spent the whole day being
| productive. It will be a net gain overall.
|
| The first step is realizing that the risk of quitting your job
| is much lower than you think. Once you come to terms with that,
| it will be much easier to quit and begin building something
| important to you. There are _so many_ opportunities for
| builders to produce value, raise money, get customers, and
| generally make themselves more useful, and therefore more
| fulfilled, than they ever could be while working for someone
| else. Take advantage of those opportunities while you can. If
| you fail, try again, or worst case scenario you can revert to
| your wage slavery.
| ChadNauseam wrote:
| How would I go about finding/identifying those opportunities?
| acuozzo wrote:
| > The first step is realizing that the risk of quitting your
| job is much lower than you think.
|
| With a SAHM wife, three kids under ten, a home, an investment
| property, and several other loans & liabilities, I'd say that
| the risks are considerable, especially given that neither my
| wife nor I have any family to fall back on.
| tuanm wrote:
| Same. Working in almost hours of the day can burn us out,
| especially with the intellectual jobs in IT industry.
|
| Mental health should be more concerned and the "work-life
| balance" term needs to be brought to the discussion. Also, do
| not let the "overthinking" in.
|
| By the way, I'm doing my 9-to-5 job for several years as a
| software engineer and still learning new stuff everyday. It's
| not the best but I'm enjoying my life. Just relax. =))
| lelima wrote:
| Lately I've been booking meetings for quick walk with the dog or
| having a nap, or even watch 20 min episode of wherever, in the
| works hours,
|
| I feel I'm more productive after having these small breaks and I
| feel way happier, anyone should try it
| criddell wrote:
| I keep a guitar at work and when I'm hung up, I'll close my
| door and noodle for a bit. It's surprising just how often once
| I'm able to stop thinking about a problem, the answer appears.
| georgeecollins wrote:
| Here's my free advice on the internet (aka worth nothing). Don't
| be productive, be accumulative.
|
| If every day you do one thing that makes thing easier going
| forward, gives you another option, makes a job easier in the long
| term, adds a skill, gets you a reference or a connection, pay a
| dividend or royalty, etc.. in the long run you will be fine.
| atentaten wrote:
| This one has revealed the secret.
| InstantMessage wrote:
| Your comment reminded me of a great post from Joel Spolsky:
|
| https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/01/06/fire-and-motion/
|
| "...you have to move forward every day. Sooner or later you
| will win."
| ragnot wrote:
| This is fantastic advice. Another way to think of it: "The days
| are long but the decades are short"
| ryandvm wrote:
| As Diogenes would have said, live like a dog.
| Rimintil wrote:
| Very few of us in society do work that truly matters. Work is
| like a colouring book: A complete waste of your time (though work
| might be less fun, YMMV).
|
| It would be lovely to give up the charade of the importance of
| work.
| Dowwie wrote:
| Let's go hiking.
| greenie_beans wrote:
| where u at?
| aftbit wrote:
| Working from 7:30 to 17:30 is already plenty productive...
| gspencley wrote:
| I'm a hyper-productive person, but productivity for productivity
| sake is literally pointless.
|
| All productivity is a means to an end. You are producing
| something, by definition. What is that and why?
|
| While I do have an "emotional itch" to work on "something" most
| of the time, I don't leave work to go do more work just for the
| sake of it. There are specific things that I want to produce
| because it makes me happy. If I don't work on those things, then
| it's not that I feel guilty, it's that I feel a void in my life.
|
| In the past I have had so many hobbies and not enough time to
| dedicate to them all. I would get bored of one and move to
| another. Some might view that as recreation, but they were always
| making and producing something. For the last couple of years my
| wife and I have been performing magic as semi-professionals and
| as I find myself feeling less and less enthusiastic about modern
| technology after 25 years in the industry, I'm starting to see a
| scenario where I retire from tech and we take a major risk and go
| all in professionally. That can't happen if we don't put the work
| into it today. Not that you or anyone else should, but there's
| purpose and motivation behind the decision to produce that.
|
| I don't live for the sake of my employer and I'm not motivated by
| money (at least not at this stage in my career, I have enough).
| There are things I want in my life that I will never get if I
| don't work towards them. Sometimes I am too tired, and that's a
| good signal that I'm not resting enough. But every single
| "productive" thing that I do, be it for my employer or myself,
| has a motivation behind it. No one should feel pressured to
| produce something just for the sake of producing (unless they are
| living parasitically off of the efforts of others but that is a
| whole different conversation).
| lljk_kennedy wrote:
| * Fuck being productive with the aim of making someone else
| wealthier.
|
| Downtime is productive. It recharges you, allows you to
| background-process your thoughts, fulfills your mind if you're
| doing something you love, makes you healthier if you're doing
| something active. Being productive in service to yourself is
| totally fine.
| Noe2097 wrote:
| Interestingly, lately, I find myself totally unable to do
| "nothing" -- to be unproductive by the description given in the
| article.
|
| The perspective of spending 1 or 2 hours playing videogames or
| watching entertainment (movies, series) became terribly boring to
| me. I can only think of that as a loss of time: I wouldn't be a
| better person at the end of it.
|
| Being able to better smash buttons, faster, at the right timing
| -- watching a story unfold on screen -- these used to be a great
| source of joy "before". But today, it seems all so dull; my
| intellect or my body doesn't get any better by doing that.
| Instead, reading whatever book on ML or even on an obscure
| programming language or technique, or spending time at the gym,
| or listening to a lecture on math or physics, sound so much more
| appealing to me.
|
| I cannot spend time anymore just sitting, it literally upsets me.
| Anybody feeling the same?
| moffkalast wrote:
| I've noticed something similar lately as well.
|
| Could be the influence of excessive corporativism as the
| article suggests, where every second we don't spend creating
| the proverbial 'value for the shareholders' we have no reason
| to exist. Slowly it leaks into private life until one cannot
| relax anymore and can only do productive things constantly or
| feel guilty about it. Or maybe it's about desperately trying to
| become that better more capable person we once foolishly
| promised ourselves we'll be, while we visibly age and wonder
| which day will be our last wondering "is this really all there
| is to life?".
|
| Either one I guess.
| version_five wrote:
| Slack off a bit during work if you can get away with it, and
| either be personally productive then or use it as leisure time.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| Work at work, enjoy life outside of work. Have real weekends and
| evenings and use them to reset your brain. Allowing your brain to
| reset is an essential part of being productive. Your short term
| memory gets in the way of solving problems sometimes. And your
| brain actually does useful things while you sleep. I've lost
| count of how solutions to seemingly tricky issues just pop in my
| head after a good night sleep or after a long weekend.
|
| And you can learn on the job. No need to do that outside work
| hours. And trying to learn stuff when you are tired after a long
| day is hard. It makes you more tired, you learn slower, it's
| frustrating, and you are setting yourself up for being less
| productive the next day because of it.
|
| Make time for learning stuff, demand time for it even and put it
| in your calendar or just sneak it in. Get your boss to support
| you.
|
| Try working smarter, not harder. If it feels like monkey work
| automate it. It's more fun and you get more productive by doing
| less. Frees up some time to do more interesting things.
|
| If your work is not interesting to you, you are in the wrong job
| anyway. But assuming it is, you should make the most of it in
| terms of making it rewarding (and not just in the money sense).
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| Sounds like massive cope. If we don't like work perhaps we can
| change it without waiting on favors to be handed down to us.
| Your boss won't help unless market conditions force their hand.
|
| The work conditions you mentioned (free weekday nights and the
| weekend) were fought for _by organized workers_ and are very
| new, why stop there?
|
| I don't think we'll even _keep_ those conditions if that 's
| what we're satisfied with. We already see that in tech with
| Slack, uncompensated on-call, salaried overtime expectations
| set during hiring or onboarding, the expectation that
| prospective hires spend their free time on training projects,
| etc
| AndrewKemendo wrote:
| 100% this
|
| The idea that work is "over there" and life is "over here" is
| not only unique historically, it's also the reason workers
| have no power. By failing to demand that companies and
| organizations adjust to us and telling them "this is how we
| are going to live and companies need to fit into that" then
| we tacitly let them collude to keep labor power down.
|
| If you are alienated from your work, and accept and lean into
| that alienation, then you have no personal drive to make work
| serve you and your community rather than you serving it.
|
| It's a race to the bottom of alienation and the paved path of
| capitalism is basically scraping the bottom at this point.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| If you are a good, productive engineer, your boss will bend
| over backwards to not lose you. Or they should be. Your
| negotiation power is a lot stronger than you think. Plenty of
| jobs out there and it never hurts to remind them that they
| are replacable.
|
| I've enjoyed the work conditions I mention throughout my
| career. I'm 48 now. But of course I work in a part of the
| world where this stuff was sorted out decades ago. 40 hour
| work weeks, 26 days of vacation per year, etc. Here in
| Germany, many companies even have policies that state people
| should not be sending emails or replying to those in their
| spare time. Such a simple thing. Easy to implement too. Just
| don't reply outside of work hours.
|
| Of course, I'm a startup CTO so I have none of that because I
| work for myself. But I still take my weekends and evenings
| because I'm simply less productive and creative when I'm
| tired and stressed out which is a different way of saying I'm
| useless when I'm like that. I need my brain to work properly
| to be effective. So I use my time wisely. And working on
| weekends or evenings simply isn't a good use of my time. So,
| I rarely do that.
|
| Being a wage slave is a choice. If you don't like your life,
| change it. Lots of people are not capable of reflecting on
| what they do or why they do it and afraid to change or
| challenge things. They just do the same thing day after day
| because that just is what they do; no matter how much it
| sucks. Change starts with you wanting things to change and
| then acting to make that happen.
| deprecative wrote:
| > Being a wage slave is a choice. If you don't like your
| life, change it.
|
| It's incredibly unfortunate that instead of using a shred
| of empathy to see that your situation isn't the situation
| of nearly everyone else in the industry, or alive for that
| matter. "If you don't like your life, change it" screams "I
| have no idea what I am talking about" because you're
| failing to see that situations elsewhere are different.
|
| Take a software job in the US. You're working a minimum of
| 45 hours per week for 40 hours pay. If you have to work
| overtime you do so for free. If you get sick you have a
| mandated PTO allowance of 0. You might get two weeks. Your
| salary will be somewhere in the ballpark of $70k. Is that
| good? Yes. Is it enough? No. Not even close. If you change
| employer or region is any of that going to change? No. It
| won't.
|
| So, what's left? Easy: be born into wealth and retire on
| it. Just change your life, bro.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| Yes, all I suggested was that workers coordinate to
| demand conditions. Their reply was that individuals
| should talk to their bosses alone, or find a new boss.
| It's always mystified me why people will shoot down the
| idea of workers organizing, and meanwhile their managers,
| execs, investors, board and their industry connections
| routinely meet and coordinate over how to keep wages at a
| desired market position, in other words how to keep wages
| as suppressed as possible.
|
| They're organized as hell over this, why should workers
| stay atomized? There's a reason employers don't want
| workers talking about wages with anyone except their
| boss.
| RektBoy wrote:
| home office?
| cmilton wrote:
| We all need a reason to be productive. We have placed these jobs
| above our own well being. That doesn't sound very healthy at all.
| I would suggest finding something you are passionate about. It
| may take a while.
| xkcd1963 wrote:
| For some people the work gives them energy, or work itself is
| what motivates them. If you can find a job like that, you won't
| feel the need to fill gaps with needless productivity.
| Jeff_Brown wrote:
| If you feel this way and you have the option, an easy solution is
| to make less money and/or take a job you like that involves
| learning and self-improvement.
|
| I realize not everyone has the opportunity, but I think a lot of
| people would be much happier earning less.
| simontheowl wrote:
| I had similar thoughts for a while. What helped me was instead of
| aiming to make all of the time outside work productive (3-4
| hours) just aim for under an hour. For me, 40 min of
| producitivity per day outside of work makes me feel accomplished.
| You can actually get a lot done in that span of time like do some
| exercise, practice an instrument, read an article... (pick one
| per day and cycle through the week). Not much immediate
| gratification, but over the years it adds up to a tonn of
| personal development. Plus with a 40-min window you don't feel
| guilt about abandoning your other family duties etc.
| similetimes wrote:
| [dead]
| pointy_hat wrote:
| Reminded me of Bartebly the Scrivener and "I would prefer not
| to", but also Byul-Chun Han and "Burnout Society". A very short
| summary of the latter is that in our day and age we exploit
| ourselves on behalf of people who would in previous decades
| exploit us. But of course the author explores both reasons and
| consequences of this phenomena.
| commandlinefan wrote:
| If that's your thing, I'm totally cool with it - if you need to
| watch TV or play video games to decompress, that's fine. I
| personally get really anxious when I'm "wasting" time and would
| rather learn something (math, computers, music, something) or do
| something (housework, yardwork, something) with my "spare" time
| and I can't help but notice that me _not_ spending time doing
| what other people consider "leisure" activities really irks a
| lot of people. Like, to each their own, you know?
| golol wrote:
| You misunderstand. He is like you. He felt anxious when he
| wasn't being productive so he spent his free time studying or
| whatever. But at some point maybe that stops working for you.
| Maybe you just don't have energy left and need a break. That
| happened to him and the important realization is that then you
| also have to let go of that anxious feeling, because if you
| aren't gonna be productive you might as well have fun. It's
| easy to say "to each their own" if it hasn't happened to you
| (yet): not actually feeling like being productive while still
| having that anxious feeling. So what I'm trying to say is: It's
| good to be productive but being driven by anxiety is maybe not
| something you should view as a fundamental character trait of
| yours.
| chronofar wrote:
| > I personally get really anxious when I'm "wasting" time
|
| One could argue that this is the problem. Not that you spend
| your time doing activities others wouldn't consider leisurely,
| but that you feel compelled to because otherwise you become
| "really anxious." Some anxiety can be a propulsion, but too
| much can be a pathology. I'm certainly not fit to evaluate your
| own, but by your own words I'd suggest it's possibly worth
| further reflection.
|
| Check out Four Thousand Weeks for some recent musings on why
| that anxiety may be best ignored rather than heeded:
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/54785515-four-thousand-w...
| BossingAround wrote:
| > I personally get really anxious when I'm "wasting" time and
| would rather learn something
|
| What happens when you get to such a state where you simply
| cannot NOT waste time? E.g. your job becomes so soul-sucking
| that you have no mental energy left? Might you be then the
| author of the post? Hmm.
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| This might be decoupled from productivity anxiety, but my
| theory is that there are different types of "fun".
|
| There's the "simple carbohydrate" fun of, say, an action game,
| which is immediate, easy, but low-nutrition and, enjoyed
| overlong, makes me feel empty inside.
|
| Then there's the "complex carbohydrate" fun of learning
| something new or working on a project, which is more fulfilling
| and interesting but also _work_ -- mentally taxing -- and,
| enjoyed overlong, burns me out.
|
| My brain seems to demand a balanced diet of both.
| alexpotato wrote:
| Whenever I feel like I don't have enough time to do things, I
| think about the comment from the developer of curl:
|
| "On average, I spend about an hour a day on curl. It adds up over
| time."
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I get the impression from others who have worked for Japanese
| companies that even tbt 12 hours at work aren't super productive;
| the long hours are a performance to show loyalty to the company.
| pelagicAustral wrote:
| I'm incredibly lucky in that I live 5 minutes away from the
| office. I work 7.5 hours a day, Monday to Friday. Every day I got
| a ton of time to dedicate to things I like... and yet, many times
| I feel drained from crunching code every day... It's been like 8
| months since I worked on a personal project... lately all I do is
| play Breath of the Wild... But I feel pretty good about it, I
| think I relate to this fuck-being-productive culture more and
| more every day... or maybe I'm just depressed... don't know.
| foobarian wrote:
| Could be BotW is the problem. I was so much happier when I
| switched to Genshin Impact :-D
| pelagicAustral wrote:
| Looks pretty good. Wiki page is impressive, especially the
| Controversies section. I wish they had a Switch version.
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| If you don't already, try working out 30 mins a day!
| pelagicAustral wrote:
| You hit the nail in the head... I haven't don't a single
| thing in months... I really need to get out there and do
| something.
| von_lohengramm wrote:
| I think this is all a misconception about what "productive"
| really means. It means making progress towards some goal.
|
| If you're some temporarily embarrassed billionaire, then the
| startup grindset is quite productive towards your goal.
|
| If filling your life with momentary happiness is your goal, then
| playing videogames is quite productive towards your goal.
|
| If you're a good little worker bee or someone at the Bureau of
| Labor Statistics is holding your family hostage, then clocking in
| 18 hours a day/7 days a week at $BIGTECH is quite productive
| towards your goal.
|
| If you're religious, then going to church, improving your
| behavior/mindset, etc. are quite productive towards your goal.
|
| It just all comes down to: What do you want out of life? What do
| you see as the purpose of life? The purpose of _your_ life?
| Looking at this problem any other way is just deferring your
| personal philosophy, beliefs, and values to someone else--someone
| who probably doesn 't care one bit about you and what you want.
| jerska wrote:
| Sorry but gotta say it the way it comes to my mind : << no shit,
| Sherlock >>.
|
| Listen to your body. Always.
| myth_drannon wrote:
| Next step: reading Charles Bukowski and just absolutely not
| giving a f*ck. I always seen him as the ultimate slacker and
| hoped some of that energy will trickle down to me when I was
| being workaholic.
|
| On another note I really liked "How to Be Idle" by Tom Hodgkinson
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/623922.How_to_Be_Idle In case
| you get some guilt feelings.
| WFHRenaissance wrote:
| LOL this is some of the cringiest advice I've seen dispensed on
| HN yet.
| RankingMember wrote:
| Can you elaborate?
| PartiallyTyped wrote:
| Is he really a slacker?
|
| To my limited knowledge, "Don't try" is to say do something
| that you don't need effort to start doing, something that
| doesn't feel like a chore to you, something that you are
| passionate about.
|
| He also mentioned going hungry a lot for his passion.
|
| I don't think that someone who perseveres through all that is a
| slacker, but again, my understanding is limited.
| timeagain wrote:
| My impression of bukowski is that he was absolutely driven to
| write, but that he was an incredible slacker at work. That he
| worked only well enough and hard enough to drink and write
| (neither being incredibly expensive past times).
|
| So he was motivated, but not by work or the concerns of
| others. The only reason we know about him is because he chose
| to write and often semi-autobiographically. There are scores
| of people who make similar arrangements for music, sport,
| reading, gardening, child rearing... we just don't hear from
| them!
| damnitpeter wrote:
| Any favorites from Bukowski to recommend? Always been
| interested but not sure where to start.
| zedpm wrote:
| Factotum and South of No North are two of my favorites.
| badpun wrote:
| "Factotum" and "Post Office" are both classics and basically
| on the subject of work.
| myth_drannon wrote:
| You can start from anything, they are similar. Factotum or
| Post Office... One is enough.
| isoprophlex wrote:
| > Working hours are 07:30-17:30
|
| That's not a job my dudeperson, that's a gulag
| deprecative wrote:
| Work being 10 hours isn't that far off. In the US you work,
| generally, 9 to 9 1/2 or so a day. I'd call them approximately
| comparable. Sure, it's a little egregious but not that far
| beyond "normal" for me as an American.
| sebastianconcpt wrote:
| If you are having the energy to still be productive after work,
| why aren't you capitalizing on that with something you completely
| own?
|
| You will not have that levels of energy forever.
| prmoustache wrote:
| I'd like to get back to part time work.
| kvark wrote:
| If doing cool stuff at home is what drives you, there is only so
| much time you'll spend aimlessly binge watching Netflix or
| playing games, before this drive wakes up and brings you back to
| do interesting things again.
| mid-kid wrote:
| This is not how it works for me. When I was unemployed, I was
| absolutely not bored, having time to finish projects I've
| shelved left and right, however useless they were. Doing things
| in the off-hours with a 9-to-5 job is much, much harder. With
| the energy of the day already gone, and the also very human
| need to just sit down and relax, there's just not much one can
| do.
|
| I really hope to eventually do something that allows me to earn
| money, and have enough time to both tinker and relax, without
| running the risk of being exhausted come next morning.
| blastonico wrote:
| I have a different understanding of being productive - and it's
| not about working harder.
|
| It's more about being smart at work and life (find the best tools
| for you, discover how your own brain works and find lifehacks -
| including food - to exploit the best from it).
| leesec wrote:
| You're saying we shouldn't spend literally all of our waking
| hours like productive robots and actually spend some time
| enjoying life? I'm just hearing this now for the first time.
| nicbou wrote:
| I am increasingly hostile to the cult of productivity. I
| understand that a competitive environment calls for these sorts
| of sacrifices, but we should at least stop fetishizing it.
|
| Live a simple life, make enough money, then focus on other
| things. You've met your weekly quota, your bills are paid. Now go
| play.
|
| When you're on your death bed, you won't be thinking "I wish I
| spent more time at work, closing tickets".
| chankstein38 wrote:
| Amen. This also subtly highlights a huge negative to being forced
| to work in an office, commute times. I was in the same boat,
| 2.5hrs or so of commuting per day made my 8hr day a 10.5hr day
| and made my blood boil. Started working from home and my blood
| pressure went down and I got happier AND had more time to myself.
| AndrewKemendo wrote:
| Glad to see people starting to demand their time to be properly
| compensated for.
| philip1209 wrote:
| "Pathless Path" is a great book about reevaluating values with
| respect to work.
| Daunk wrote:
| I work similar hours, but I WANT to do something productive! But
| I just don't have the strength or energy. Chores also eats a lot
| of time...
| jmkni wrote:
| When I was younger, I tried to spend as much of my free time as
| possible learning things that would enhance my career. New
| programming languages, frameworks, etc, things like that.
|
| Eventually I realised that doing what is basically your job in
| your free time is fucking exhausting.
|
| Nowadays I try to spend that time learning things which _won't_
| enhance my career. Gardening, cooking, woodwork, much less
| stressful and more fulfilling imo
| yboris wrote:
| We need 4DWW - _Four Day Work Week_. This would give all of us
| the much-needed day to catch up on administrative stuff, so we
| can have our weekends back for relaxing. We will have time for
| side projects again.
|
| _Fight for 4DWW_ !!!
| listenallyall wrote:
| How would you catch up? Administrative stuff like going to the
| post office, DMV, getting a haircut, would all be closed... due
| to 4 day work week.
| throwaway22032 wrote:
| Your week has 112 hours of waking time.
|
| If you spend 50% of that at work, you have spent 50% of it at
| work. Probably the most productive 50%.
|
| The entire point of working for someone else is to attain enough
| money that you don't need to any more and you can treat it as
| more of an optional thing. If you're not doing that then unless
| you really enjoy your job burnout is inevitable.
| Rimintil wrote:
| > The entire point of working for someone else is to attain
| enough money that you don't need to any more and you can treat
| it as more of an optional thing.
|
| If that were the singular goal/point, then most people should
| simply give up working entirely because they'll never reach it.
| They're working their own version of the sunk cost fallacy.
| throwaway22032 wrote:
| Yep!
| esafak wrote:
| Most people get to the optional thing when they reach
| retirement age.
| sBqQu3U0wH wrote:
| Honestly, I do feel somewhat similar. I work a normal 8-hour day
| and I am not obsessed with productivity nor I am some kind of
| anti-work activist, but it just feels like such a waste of time.
| The only reason I go to work is for money. I don't care about the
| products we build for someone else (why should I?), nor the
| technologies used (each of which brings its own challenges and
| frustrations). If I didn't need to go to work, I could dedicate
| more time to reading, writing, learning new skills, working on my
| own side projects, getting enough sleep, exercising, cooking,
| etc. Work just sucks the very soul out of me, and at the end of
| the day, I don't really want to do anything. Only on weekends and
| holidays do I feel much more energetic and motivated to do the
| things I listed previously, which evaporates by Monday.
| cmilton wrote:
| Its possible you just picked the wrong career. Time for a
| change?
| quijoteuniv wrote:
| Have you considered the posibility of doing a rewarding job
| (other than money). I think is possible sometimes, often it
| might be less money involved, but imagine that your work allows
| you to work in what you enjoy and in your free time, er r
| ...you just rest or do more of what you enjoy.
| slothtrop wrote:
| I've expended an inordinate amount of effort trying to get a
| rewarding job, more-so than at any of the jobs themselves.
| It's not a given. If you've taken a career trajectory that
| employers find don't match the pattern they are most familiar
| with and place a premium on, you will have a doubly hard
| time, as you're competing with those who haven't.
|
| Free time is what there is for me, and though I don't think
| of it in "productive" terms, I do think it's important to
| bias towards action rather than passive consumption.
| quijoteuniv wrote:
| What I am saying is that entertaining the idea, that there
| might be a job out there that you actually enjoy, might
| help you find it. At the end of the day is a transaction
| and is better to learn to make good deals for oneself, and
| also accept if one can only take a bad deal at the moment.
| I always tried to make the best out of the bad deals with
| different degree of success.
| slothtrop wrote:
| > What I am saying is that entertaining the idea, that
| there might be a job out there that you actually enjoy,
| might help you find it.
|
| Pretty sure competing for them necessitates that one
| might suppose they exist.
| srcreigh wrote:
| The grass is always greener. Plenty of people become depressed
| once they stop working. The excitement of a hobby comes out of
| a balance with the struggle of work. Not everybody. If you like
| try taking extended time off to see where you land.
| slothtrop wrote:
| There is a certain balance to be had yes when experiencing
| flow. Practice raises the threshold, makes harder things more
| enjoyable (e.g. a musical instrument).
|
| However we're creatures of habit, and I think most people
| search for rationalizations to do nothing or change nothing.
| That's comfortable and familiar. People don't know what they
| want and seem to shop around for placeholders for identity.
| It's not certain what the payoff will be for any new
| undertaking.
| kortilla wrote:
| > I don't care about the products we build for someone else
| (why should I?)
|
| This mindset is how you kneecap your career. You've pigeonholed
| yourself into the foot soldier category when it becomes
| immediately obvious to managers that you aren't thinking about
| what's actually good for the company.
|
| You may already know this, but it needs to be explicitly called
| out that taking that approach to your business relationship
| with your employer defines the relationship.
| sBqQu3U0wH wrote:
| Well, this is more what I feel internally about working in
| general than about a particular company. This is not
| something that spills out into the work environment. I
| perform tasks to the best of my ability and just "put on a
| face" that is expected of me. Company is satisfied about my
| performance during evaluations.
| czscout wrote:
| I think it's possible to be invested in the performance and
| improvement of the company you work for without being
| personally invested in the exact product you're helping to
| develop.
| jonfw wrote:
| Caring about the product is not good for your career. You
| should care about your career, and most of the time, that
| means that progressing the product should be your goal.
|
| However, when the interests of yourself and your company
| diverge, don't get stuck holding the bag.
| hotpotamus wrote:
| Here's the managers in "Office Space" telling the employees
| to always think of what's good for the company.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0NNVm5ajMQ
| 88913527 wrote:
| If you care about the products, the emotional investment in
| your work might propel your income, which is the reason why
| you're working in the first place, so ostensibly a follow-on
| goal of that might be to raise your income.
| cool_dude85 wrote:
| This is an interesting theory. My experience has been quite
| the opposite, in that typically jobs that people care about
| and connect with on an emotional level are those which pay
| relatively little. Teaching, social work, caring, and so on.
| escapedmoose wrote:
| This has been my experience so far. It seems
| employers/supervisors can sniff out when you really care
| about something, so they use that as leverage to take
| advantage: heap on more responsibilities without
| accompanying pay increase, cut benefits, delay raises and
| promotions, etc. I really wish that weren't the case, but
| as a person who's passionate about my work, I've
| encountered it at every employer so far :(
|
| I'm not in SV so maybe the situation is different there
| kortilla wrote:
| If you think people don't care and connect with other
| industries on an emotional level, you are wrong.
| rbancroft wrote:
| It's not guaranteed, but caring and working hard can pay
| off over time and can give longevity to what you do. If you
| are working with the right people, they tend to notice and
| reward this.
|
| The result of not caring shows over time and companies that
| operate like this tend to fall behind and become obsolete.
| [deleted]
| briffle wrote:
| Like all those Microsoft developers, who worked long hours,
| made their company $15B in profit last quarter (and $5B in
| stock buybacks) and are now not getting any raises?
| 88913527 wrote:
| At-will employment isn't a valid reason to not care about
| what you do. The armchair theory is the emotional
| investment would still lead to promotions, higher raises,
| etc than someone who otherwise wouldn't be. The
| macroeconomic climate is orthogonal. For example, suppose
| that by caring, they got promoted to a new job that will
| make them a more competitive candidate in the job market.
| Now that person can more easily leave Microsoft for a non-
| pay freeze company, so the advantage remains.
| escapedmoose wrote:
| I posted this elsewhere but it's relevant here:
|
| It seems employers/supervisors can sniff out when you
| really care about something, so they use that as leverage
| to take advantage: heap on more responsibilities without
| accompanying pay increase, cut benefits, delay raises and
| promotions, etc. I really wish that weren't the case, but
| as a person who's passionate about my work, I've
| encountered it at every employer so far. Because of that,
| my career mobility has come entirely from job-hopping
| (which I'm not a fan of, but I need to pay the bills).
|
| I'm not in SV so maybe the situation is different there
| notabee wrote:
| Caring just as often leads to burnout, since many people wind
| up dealing with organizational dysfunction. If you truly care
| and the resultant product gets butchered due to politics or
| simply killed on an executive's whim despite having promise,
| that's going to affect you longer term and could make you
| less efficient or unable to dedicate good effort in the
| future, especially if that cycle is repeated several times.
| Getting too invested in something that you only have marginal
| control over is a two edged sword.
| thatfrenchguy wrote:
| Eh, there's quick diminishing returns in making more income,
| especially in software engineering. Being interested in the
| products you're building is a better path to work contentment
| in my opinion.
| fswd wrote:
| It's funny, if you say this duringg an interview "Why do you
| want the job?" "Money" you won't get hired. So it becomes a
| performance artist act.
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| I had an elderly relative on the admission committee for a
| med school in the 80s-90s.
|
| He told us that he only downgraded someone if lots of money
| were the _only_ reason to apply.
| AndyMcConachie wrote:
| Don't hate the player hate the game.
| escapedmoose wrote:
| That seems a little disingenuous. Of course they know you're
| there primarily for money, so that's not really the question
| they're asking. They're really asking "why are you looking
| for money from us and not someone else?" You can be cynical
| and call that "performance" or be realistic and recognize it
| as communication shorthand.
| cstrahan wrote:
| Are you assuming "money" isn't also the answer to this
| implied question?
| escapedmoose wrote:
| Haha maybe that's the answer for you personally. I
| wouldn't take more money for a worse job (generally), so
| I guess I _am_ assuming money isn't also the second
| answer
| slt2021 wrote:
| if money is the only reason, you can get money elsewhere.
|
| it ties back to theory of employee motivation, money
| being only external motivator. For high performance,
| employee needs also internal motivation (drive).
|
| employees with internal motivation are miles ahead and
| more productive than without one.
|
| this is why well paid and pampered Gogle engineers are
| less productive than some open-source enthusiasts
| missedthecue wrote:
| Generally, employers want to screen out apathy, which isn't
| conducive to creativity, productivity, ingenuity, and worst
| of all, is contagious.
|
| I agree that asking that question in an interview probably
| isn't the best method of screening out apathy, but that's why
| they ask it. I don't actually know what the best method is.
| ksd482 wrote:
| I am a software engineer.
|
| I struggled to find meaning in my work for the first few years
| of my career. I used to lie (unknowingly) to myself "I love my
| job", "I am passionate about my job", "It's my passion" and I
| was always disappointed.
|
| That is until one day, after many years and barring many
| details, I decided to tell myself that "I push buttons on a
| company laptop in exchange for money and I happen to somewhat
| like it from time to time". I immediately became better at my
| job as it improved my mental health. I started seeing my work
| for what it was.
|
| As for "passion", I started looking elsewhere for it and
| eventually found it. I can't make living from it, but that's
| another story.
| gdsdfe wrote:
| where did you find your passion? just curious
| [deleted]
| tilne wrote:
| On the advice of a commenter in a different HN thread I
| recently read Cal Newport's book, "So Good They Can't
| Ignore You." The main premise is that passion results from
| valuable skills built via hard work over years of
| deliberate practice. Only after you have those valuable
| skills, the book argues, do you have the leverage to
| dictate your life in a way many people find necessary for
| satisfaction. Passion follows from there.
|
| The book is a fun read, but that's basically the entire
| takeaway. And I find it to be a compelling argument.
|
| Passion does need to be found, but it seems logical that
| your skills will lead you to the passion, rather than the
| other way around.
| xenocratus wrote:
| > I don't care about the products we build for someone else
| (why should I?)
|
| I mean, this obviously depends on the kind of product - is it
| some biotech to make someone's life better, or is it a gambling
| website tuned to suck the most out of whales? As engineers
| we're much better placed than most people to do something
| meaningful with our work, and sticking with a job where you
| don't see that value is a pity. But if you just don't care
| about building something for someone else... maybe you should
| change that? As you say, there's little choice in whether you
| have to do it (unless you win the lottery or something), why
| not make a goal out of it and get some enjoyment out.
| badpun wrote:
| > As you say, there's little choice in whether you have to do
| it (unless you win the lottery or something)
|
| With some frugality and smart money management, you can
| retire in 5-10 years if you're on a dev salary.
| j7ake wrote:
| This means delaying starting a family, and those previous
| years 10 years is vital for fertility as well, which
| discriminates against women.
| fsckboy wrote:
| men making a choice to save money and retire after a
| short career necessarily would create employment
| opportunities for women
| fwip wrote:
| Depends on where you are and where you work. FAANG devs in
| a big city, sure, but not a dev working on payroll software
| in Podunkus, Idaho.
| nly wrote:
| Frugality is an understatement on that timeline. To retire
| in 10 years you're going to have to be able to live
| _comfortably_ on something like 1 /3rd of your take home
| pay.
|
| No employer is going to pay you 3x what your nearest peer
| is willing to live on.
| badpun wrote:
| > To retire in 10 years you're going to have to be able
| to live comfortably on something like 1/3rd of your take
| home pay.
|
| That's very easy if you don't have kids - just don't get
| on a hedonic threadmill (and, if you're already on it,
| start gradually getting off). I'm not a parent myself, so
| won't speak about the "with kids" situation.
| nly wrote:
| Rent isnt a "hedonic treadmill". Neither is food or
| energy. These are the 3 areas seeing the most inflation
| right now. Rents in London are up 20% in a year, food
| almost the same, and energy ...well, everyone knows what
| has happened to energy.
|
| The average Londoner is paying almost 40% of their take
| home pay on rent, so saving 2/3rds is already impossible.
|
| Even as one of the lucky ones earning a top 1% salary, I
| _still_ pay 40% of my take home pay on a mortgage with a
| 33 year mortgage term!
|
| Your idea of getting off the treadmill must be living in
| the countryside and taking a 80% pay cut, I suppose?
|
| Before coming to London I was doing an equally demanding
| role on 20% of my current pay.
|
| Or how about raising a family in a 1 bedroom flat? - i
| see loads of people doing that these days. My old
| neighbours both had full time well paid jobs and were
| still in a 1 bed with a newborn.
|
| There's no real escape. The economy is a dog, and we are
| all underpaid.
| jacobyoder wrote:
| Wife is from UK, but we're in the US now. She's got some
| friends/family there, and we keep up with some
| news/sports/TV from the UK regularly. Have watched some
| recent reports about how dire some things have gotten
| over the last year or two. Things are 'bad' all over, but
| the UK seems to have been hit doubly/triply hard compared
| to some neighbors, esp with energy prices. Unsure how
| much brexit is a root cause, but between
| brexit/covid/ukraine, UK seems to be in a bad spot. Sorry
| you're dealing with so much that's beyond your control. I
| completely get this is well beyond "don't eat out as
| much" territory.
| midasuni wrote:
| The problem isn't as much the pay - I'd pay increases
| then so will rent (or housing costs)
|
| The problem in the U.K and especially london is that
| demand for housing outstrips supply. This denies
| opportunities to most of the country as the only way for
| young green people to live in london is to live rent free
| with parents who paid two years worth of wages for a 3
| bed semi 40 years ago, for a house now 10 times wage
| eertami wrote:
| Yeah. London is great when young and going out to do
| things all the time, sucks later on though. In London I
| definitely felt like I was living paycheck to paycheck,
| but moving to a European city with better services (but
| probably less culture), rent for our 3br flat in the city
| center was cheaper than our 1 bed in zone 6 - and taxes
| are much lower.
|
| Now 9% of my takehome goes on rent, and I have no idea
| how I could ever go back to the UK. The energy bills
| alone are mind boggling, and every time I visit it just
| feels like it slips further and further behind the times.
| Jach wrote:
| It's relatively easy for software devs to live
| comfortably on $50k and make $150k+.
| jacobyoder wrote:
| Can confirm. Have done this for the last several years.
| Wife stopped working a few years back due to an injury
| (but no disability or other income for better or worse),
| so I've been the sole breadwinner the last few years.
| I've typically been bringing in between $150k and $220k
| (gross), and we've spent most of the last ... 7-8 years
| not doing or buying much. Min obligations each month are
| now around $3000/month (mortgage, utilities, food,
| insurance), so there's been a bunch of savings.
|
| I can't _retire_ and never have to work again, but I 'm
| slowing down a bit, and spending more time not earning
| money (gym, reading, travel, etc).
|
| On second though, if I absolutely needed to, we could
| probably 'retire' tomorrow, and do a bit more belt-
| tightening - savings/investments would last probably
| another 10-12 years without any major changes to
| lifestyle, then could collect social security. But
| that's... not something I want to do. I like doing most
| of what I'm doing, and am just being a bit choosier about
| what I do now.
|
| EDIT: no kids, semi-rural southern US.
|
| EDIT 2: Moderately high, but irregular, income from
| consulting/contract dev/tech work. Not W2.
| nly wrote:
| Maybe in the US. Maybe.
|
| Here in the UK, after tax, $50K/yr doesn't even cover my
| mortgage, and I live in a house that over 100 years ago,
| according to the 1911 census, supported a family of 5 on
| a carriage drivers single income.
|
| I earn a top 1% salary as a dev and retirement will still
| be 20-25 years away for me under ideal conditions - i.e.
| a 40% savings rate.
| Jach wrote:
| My condolences, outside the US is definitely harder. At
| least you can still invest in the S&P 500.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| What's a top 1% salary in the UK?
| nly wrote:
| This will give you an idea.
|
| https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/percentile-
| points-f...
|
| In US terms somewhere around $240K USD, before tax.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| Sounds like you have a really expensive lifestyle man.
|
| Even most US devs don't make $240k USD.
| tuscen wrote:
| He said he's in the UK. So his net income is somewhere
| around 120k USD. It's big money, but not that much.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| When I calculate the post-tax income for $240k USD in SF
| it comes out to $155k:
| https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-
| calculator#SLKSX....
|
| $120k is also an underestimate given that the top tax
| bracket in the UK is only 45%. If you apply that, you get
| $132k (Still an underestimate). $132k is roughly in the
| same ballpark as $155k.
|
| It's not like the difference between the same income in
| the US and UK is 50%, and even if you _were_ on $120k USD
| net that 's the same as the _median gross income_ of a
| SWE in the US.
|
| I don't understand where "not that much" is coming from.
| tuscen wrote:
| It's coming from housing prices in London and SF. Also
| energy prices in the UK the last few years grew
| considerably. I agree it's a lot of money, but given how
| much it costs to buy a house or an apartment in London
| and SF I'd say it's not that much if you want to retire
| early. I used London and SF in these examples because
| it's hard to find jobs with that much compensation
| outside them. And this is all without considering kids.
| You'll probably want them to have a good education and
| not struggle all their life from student loan debt so you
| better save some of your income for them.
| badpun wrote:
| I'm guessing a bus driver in 1911 was kind of a high
| skill job, sort of like software development is now. How
| many people could drive a car back then, let alone a bus?
| nly wrote:
| Omnibus (i.e. carriage) driver.
| TylerE wrote:
| Carriage as in the horse drawn variety
| BeFlatXIII wrote:
| If they have their mortgage already paid off, yes, very
| much so.
| thelittleone wrote:
| I've found that by caring about the product, I can deliver
| higher quality results and charge a premium rate for doing it.
| Additionally, the quality of the work leads to good reviews and
| referrals, increasing demand (and lowering cost of sales) which
| ultimately increases my rate / profit.
| bojan wrote:
| > The only reason I go to work is for money. I don't care about
| the products we build for someone else (why should I?)
|
| You should care a bit, because ultimately whatever we produce
| ends up directly or indirectly used by other human beings. That
| is at least my motivation to care about the product - thinking
| about that person on the other side that will be directly
| affected in their daily life by the choices I make.
| FourHand451 wrote:
| I agree with what you say, but for me it's easier said than
| done. There's a disconnect in my brain because it feels like
| the rewards for taking the extra time and effort to care
| about the product tend to end up mostly in the pocketbooks of
| upper level management.
|
| Some days the idea of making a better product because it
| makes the lives of users better is enough motivation, but not
| most. I wish I could consistently be more selfless in this
| regard, but when I'm tired or stressed or depressed, my
| lizard brain needs a more direct incentive.
| JohnMakin wrote:
| I have been in places where I not only didn't give a shit about
| the product, but it was against what I believed ethically or
| morally. In those cases I managed to find pride in my own small
| piece of it and ignored the bigger picture. I'm lucky to work
| in a place now where I really believe in and use the product,
| and the same kind of soul-suckiness you're describing is far
| more tolerable.
|
| Making money for someone else is inherently soul-sucking
| though, at the end of the day.
| [deleted]
| D13Fd wrote:
| This isn't really what the article is talking about though.
| It's talking productivity outside of work.
| chasd00 wrote:
| yes and the article's definition of productive is hazy to me.
| Pursuing a hobby or interest outside of work seems productive
| to me but the article implies it's not. From the article it
| seems like the only productive activity outside of work is
| preparing for more work, i don't think that's true.
| zikduruqe wrote:
| >The only reason I go to work is for money.
|
| Don't forget healthcare being tied directly to being employed.
|
| If it was not for that, people could purse their passions
| versus what they have to do just because.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| I tend to agree, but then I wonder if people in places like
| Canada (which has universal healthcare) tend to pursue their
| passions more than those of us in the US?
| geodel wrote:
| Could be. Though I see lot of Canadians coming in US for
| employment or even just for weekly shopping in border
| states. Seems nothing like quality groceries, winter
| clothing and Gas etc on Canada side.
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| It's not that there's nothing quality in Canada.
|
| Everything is just cheaper in the USA
|
| Canadians have much lower purchasing power than
| Americans. We earn less than Americans for the same work,
| we earn CAD which makes it even lower, and on average
| everything costs more here too. It is shocking to me how
| cheap things like gas and groceries are in the USA, even
| after factoring exchange rate.
|
| Nevermind how expensive technology is here.
| babuloseo wrote:
| Canada is kind of slowly imploding. It's going through a
| lot of crisis currently. Housing is one of the biggest
| ones, for example I am a housing activist and trying to do
| something actively about the housing crisis happening in
| Canada.
| mulmen wrote:
| Can you give an example of what actually happened up
| there? And what you are doing? I hear rumors (China!) but
| you seem much more knowledgeable on the topic. I live
| down in Seattle so I'm curious how similar the situations
| are.
| cableshaft wrote:
| I don't live in Canada, but Toronto has an average
| housing cost of $1.1 million dollars (USD)[1], which is
| almost as much as San Francisco (at $1.3 million
| dollars)[2].
|
| Meanwhile the average salary in Toronto is $52k USD per
| year[3], versus San Francisco's average salary of
| $109k[4].
|
| So that might give you some idea.
|
| [1]: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-home-
| sales-1....
|
| [2]: https://www.zillow.com/home-values/20330/san-
| francisco-ca/
|
| [3]:
| https://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Location=Toronto-
| Ontari...
|
| [4]: https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Location=San-
| Francisco-...
| mulmen wrote:
| I'm more interested in how this happened, not that it is
| happening.
| Ardon wrote:
| The North American development pattern is unsustainable.
| It costs more money than to maintain than could possibly
| be paid for by property taxes. It's wildly inefficient in
| basically every way.
|
| We've been okay for a while since we use the influx of
| cash from new developments to support our existing
| maintenance obligations, but that adds new maintenance in
| the future.
|
| It's functionally a Ponzi scheme, and now it's starting
| to unravel. It'll happen in the U.S. too, just slower
| since the U.S. is bigger.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| Much of the world seems to have a housing crisis right
| now. I recall a few weeks ago there was discussion here
| about the housing crisis in Ireland. I'd say we have
| something of a housing crisis in many parts of the US as
| well. Not enough housing was built during and in the
| aftermath of the great recession - that seems to be how
| we've arrived at this problem. Housing is hugely
| expensive both to buy and to rent. It's taking a large
| bite out of budgets - that's the crisis. Something's
| gotta give.
| k8sToGo wrote:
| I live in Europe and I still have to go to work.
| idontpost wrote:
| [dead]
| nightski wrote:
| Not only that, software salaries in Europe tend to be far
| lower on average.
| BossingAround wrote:
| I've seen this argument over and over again, as if "more
| expensive to employ" directly causes "lower salaries". I
| don't think the two are directly tied. If it costs you
| $150k to pay $90k employee salary, for example, that
| doesn't explain why there are $300k+ employees in the
| Valley (while that amount of money is kind of
| preposterous in Europe, though I'm sure some have it as
| well).
|
| In my mind, it's rather a combination of:
|
| 1) European employees not willing to work much more than
| 8h a day (whereas US folks tend to work themselves to the
| bone)
|
| 2) European employees living in cheaper countries (so the
| HR has a ready-made BS answer to "why do I earn less than
| my US counterparts)
|
| 3) What I believe is a bit of disrespect towards non-US
| employees. If the company's based in the US, the upper
| management's going to be US, and I often feel like the
| attitude is somewhat "your education must have been worse
| than the US one, so you'll probably be worse than US
| engineers" kind of a deal. This is, of course, very
| subtle; I've personally never felt that from my immediate
| co-workers, but the salary policies seem to be geared
| this way.
|
| Of course, being more expensive to employ doesn't help.
| I'm sure it's one of the contributing factors too. But,
| as a European, I feel like it's far from being in the top
| 5 reasons for the salary discrepancies.
| dahwolf wrote:
| None of your listed reasons make a dent in explaining the
| massive salary differences between the US and EU.
|
| There's a much simpler explanation: The EU simply doesn't
| have the capital. There are no pools of venture
| capitalists clustering hundreds of billions of dollars
| they can piss away on half-ass ideas.
|
| It's as simple as that. They funding money simply doesn't
| exist.
| nightski wrote:
| You are implying a causal relationship where I was not.
| My point wasn't that socialized health care would be bad
| or that we shouldn't adopt it in the U.S. (I support the
| idea). Just that for many Americans working in tech (who
| don't have rare conditions) the cost of health insurance
| is not a huge factor relative to their salary or billable
| rate. As an anecdote in my 30s working as a consultant I
| paid $300/mo per person in my household.
|
| That's with an effective tax rate of like 12% for middle
| class which is absurdly low. On top of which tech workers
| can probably afford to shove in the max contribution to
| an HSA every year completely tax free and then use it for
| healthcare expenses and/or invest it for retirement
| otherwise (that's what my wife & I do).
| [deleted]
| Jach wrote:
| Tell that to the tons of working people out there without
| workplace sponsored group health insurance. But it's "only"
| on the order of $200-300/mo for a basic individual plan, and
| depending on tax income you can get some or all of that back
| when you file your returns. If you're interested in reasoning
| from horror stories, might as well ignore FTE group insurance
| plans too since those don't necessarily protect against life
| ruining expenses either. If anything, employers should be
| more on board with sponsoring trips to Mexico/India/other
| places with quality no-waiting healthcare on the cheaper side
| of things.
|
| As for people pursuing their passions if only X... there are
| many people who for various reasons do not have to work and
| who don't work, it's not a hard sell to extrapolate that the
| behavior of more people joining that class would be much the
| same as people already in it. For most of them, most of their
| time is not spent on Star Trek-ish ideals of bettering
| humanity/themselves or on passion projects.
| chankstein38 wrote:
| I feel like I could've written this. I've even been feeling
| this more strongly lately and talking to friends about it. I
| just wish I could live my life and stop needing to work so I
| could have money.
| danny_taco wrote:
| The main reason we all work for someone else is for money but
| there is something to be said about the things we build at work
| and not caring about them. This is something that took me a
| long time to realize but you need to stop thinking about
| software as a field and start thinking of it as a skill set.
| From there figure out what interests you. Wildlife, economics,
| vehicles, etc. or whatever, and then use your skill set to work
| on what field of your choosing.
|
| Working on something that doesn't interest you just for the
| sake of technology is not something that will ever make you
| happy. If you truly have no interest in anything then that's
| another problem on itself.
| notyourwork wrote:
| Big +1, work on something that bothers you in your personal
| life or something that interests you in your personal life.
| It will always undoubtedly be more fulfilling compared to
| simply "working for the man."
| jacobr1 wrote:
| One risk I've heard of second hand. If you work on your
| personal-interests or hobbies ... then that might cease to
| be fun and just become "work." I've not had that experience
| (I've always found the projects in my career interesting
| even if they have non-fun overhead at times) but it is
| something my wife and others have reported.
| incahoots wrote:
| Finding the perfect balance is the tricky part. I do I.T.
| consulting on the side, but I am not stringing myself out
| for a customer. Its one of the expectations when I offer
| my services.
|
| No I will not be on call, no your computer turning on
| isn't a emergency and I will not drop everything to hit
| the power button.
|
| If they don't like the terms, they're more than welcome
| to pay double my asking and pay a monthly retainer.
| rorroe53 wrote:
| I agree. I find it highly pointless to spend one's leisure
| time learning new tech stacks, working on hobby projects just
| so that you can show them to an employer. Finding actual
| real-world problems that you care about to solve, that's way
| more satisfying. Intrinsic motivation beats extrinsic
| motivation.
| incahoots wrote:
| I think what you've laid out here is invaluable. My skill-set
| is mostly geared towards sysadmin work, and I loathed working
| for corporate places, being on-call, dealing with immediate
| emergencies (which were all superficial), stressed over
| attending bullshit meetings.
|
| I saw my local library was looking for a sysadmin, it did
| come with a pay cut, but damn if it isn't a quarter of the
| responsibilities, fulfilling work, no direct manager,
| pension, decent healthcare, and I write my own schedule.
|
| No one questions what I do and I have full freedom to come
| and go without needing to "check-in" with a c-suite.
|
| Will I get rich working this gig, absolutely not but the
| sense of accomplishment knowing my skill-set is helping the
| community directly, and those less fortunate fills the pay
| gap I never thought it could.
|
| It doesn't hurt that it shortened my commute and I do so by
| bicycle now.
|
| Much much happier now.
| 2devnull wrote:
| Be thankful your non-work life is better than your work life.
| For many people work is a pleasant escape from non-work.
| sBqQu3U0wH wrote:
| Of course, but this is just my point of view. I am doing
| relatively well compared to, I dare say, a large number of
| people. It just felt pointless to state the obvious.
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