[HN Gopher] Google Pixel Fold
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Google Pixel Fold
        
       Author : anorphirith
       Score  : 73 points
       Date   : 2023-05-10 19:29 UTC (3 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (store.google.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (store.google.com)
        
       | kmac_ wrote:
       | Looks good and for foldable with guaranteed 5y support and clean
       | system the price is ok-ish. But I'll pass, not available on my
       | market.
        
       | ollien wrote:
       | I understand the laws of physics are in effect, but the big thing
       | keeping me from even remotely considering a foldable is the
       | durability of the internal screen. The newer Galaxy Fold's have
       | some sort of plastic/glass composite, but it still scratches
       | super easily, and it's not serviceable at all.
        
         | AshamedCaptain wrote:
         | > Google says the phone has IPX8 dust and water resistance,
         | which means it's not dust-resistant at all
         | 
         | That should tell you anything you need to know about its
         | durability.
        
           | kernal wrote:
           | Do you consider the Z Fold 4 durable? It's also IPX8.
        
       | stilist wrote:
       | The Live Translate video shows 'aqui' instead of 'aqui'. I don't
       | know if that's an error the software actually makes, or if the
       | person who composited the text into the video had the wrong
       | spelling.
        
       | GeekyBear wrote:
       | Given that folding phones have a history of being fragile and
       | Google has a history of dropping support for the devices they
       | sell quickly, do they really expect a $1800 device to sell at a
       | time when flagships that sell for half that much are not moving
       | like they did a couple of years ago?
        
         | shrimp_emoji wrote:
         | > _Google has a history of dropping support for the devices
         | they sell quickly_
         | 
         | They do?
         | 
         | Aren't Pixels some of the longest-supported phones, security
         | update wise?
         | 
         | Their IoT and software services might be another story.
        
           | GeekyBear wrote:
           | > Aren't Pixels some of the longest-supported phones,
           | security update wise?
           | 
           | Apple's $399 original iPhone SE from 2016 got six years of OS
           | updates and received another security update last month.
           | 
           | Google's original Pixel Phone, also from 2016, stopped
           | getting support at the end of 2019.
        
           | gibspaulding wrote:
           | Typing this on a Pixel 2a running Android 12. It is out of
           | support now, but that's not too shabby for a $300 phone from
           | 2017.
        
       | netdur wrote:
       | the buzzle is huge
        
       | dzink wrote:
       | $2000 might be better spent on a phone that doesn't have an
       | operating system scheduled to expire 2-3 years from now. Every
       | iPhone I've owned has had multiple lifetimes with family after
       | the 3-4 years of use I might get out of it. Androids are
       | scheduled to expire.
        
         | jefftk wrote:
         | "Pixel 6 and later phones will get updates for at least 5 years
         | from when the device first became available on the Google Store
         | in the US." --
         | https://support.google.com/nexus/answer/4457705?hl=en#zippy=...
        
           | dzink wrote:
           | That should be 5 years from when you buy it. Planned
           | obsolescence is not worth the same price as a product that
           | will last 10 years.
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | alexkukharenko wrote:
       | But didn't Samsung Fold phone fail? Why did they make it? I am
       | still not certain about holding this thing.
        
         | neom wrote:
         | "Foldables continue to be the fastest growing smartphone
         | product category this year.
         | 
         | We expect their shipments to grow 73% YoY in 2022 to 16 million
         | units.
         | 
         | Samsung continues to lead the category it created with the
         | first Galaxy Fold device.
         | 
         | Samsung's share of the foldable market was 62% in the first
         | half of this year.
         | 
         | We expect this to jump to 80% in the second half with its new
         | Galaxy Fold 4 and Flip 4 product launches."
         | 
         | https://www.counterpointresearch.com/foldable-smartphone-shi...
        
         | ChrisClark wrote:
         | Fail? They are launching the Fold 5 in a couple months now.
         | 
         | I'm still on the 3, I've had it for about 1.5 years and I use
         | it every day. I love it, especially with the pressure sensitive
         | pen.
         | 
         | It's still working great, so I'll probably wait for the fold 6
         | or 7.
        
       | salimahmad wrote:
       | Isi kerdit
        
       | salimahmad wrote:
       | Rm10000
        
       | barbazoo wrote:
       | https://store.google.com/us/product/pixel_fold for us that are
       | not in the US.
        
         | mkl wrote:
         | Thanks. Somewhat astoundingly, the Google Store's search button
         | doesn't pop up a search box for me (on desktop Chrome).
        
         | anttiharju wrote:
         | I wish the url was updated to this
        
           | pedrocr wrote:
           | That would fix this particular post but Google has had this
           | problem for a decade now and it's not like they don't know
           | how the web works. Turning a link to a specific product into
           | a generic view into their store like nothing is wrong is just
           | broken. They keep handicapping their device business with
           | these policies and methods.
        
           | dang wrote:
           | It was posted that way but our software followed the redirect
           | to https://store.google.com/product/pixel_fold?hl=en-US. I've
           | reverted it now. Sorry!
        
       | manningthegoose wrote:
       | I just don't understand who wants these foldable phones,
       | especially at the $1799 price point. I guess a use case is
       | wealthy frequent travelers who don't want a separate device with
       | a larger screen to watch movies/videos on the go? Someone help me
       | out here.
        
         | pstanger wrote:
         | hi, I want these folding phones. Though I took advantage of the
         | ridiculous trade in offers that Samsung usually promotes with.
         | Everything is just nicer on the bigger screen: messaging,
         | browsing, videos, gaming. And that screen is always in my
         | pocket. Can't read the QR code menu at the restaurant? Here,
         | look at my pocket tablet.
         | 
         | The technology is still in an awkward phase but I think slab
         | phones will be obsolete in 5 years
        
           | xnyanta wrote:
           | Totally agree, especially for the restaurant menu use case
           | even if it's niche. I can have a regular phone walking around
           | folded and just unfold whem I sit down and am ready to
           | consume any kind of media.
        
           | manojlds wrote:
           | I want folding phone too. Question is, at what price.
        
           | CameronNemo wrote:
           | I don't want to have to lug a tablet everywhere, like some
           | fulltime scribe.
        
         | xnyanta wrote:
         | I'm posting this from my Galaxy Z Fold 3. I'm not particularly
         | wealthy or a frequent traveler. I bought this phone used for
         | 750 bucks in Canada and my main use case for the screen real-
         | estate is reading manga on it, which it excels at. It also then
         | serves as a phone and a media in bed machine. It is fragile and
         | I take good care of it but it is absolutely the most innovative
         | and exciting phone I've had the pleasure of using so far. I'm
         | excited for the future of foldables and hope the next
         | generation of the pixel fold will bring more serious
         | competition to Samsung's lineup!
        
           | manojlds wrote:
           | So you don't want it at $1800 right.
        
             | xnyanta wrote:
             | It's absolutely overpriced considering I think Samsung has
             | better offerings at that price point (which I think are
             | equally ovepriced). I think fierce competition will bring
             | the price of this emerging form factor down in the long
             | term. That said, I am loving the device and will not
             | hesitate to pay some more to trade it in for a next gen
             | device when they come out. I'm not interested in returning
             | to a slab phone at the moment after habing gotten a taste
             | of the Fold.
        
           | r00fus wrote:
           | I think you hit on something here - if you can get it for 750
           | (in any currency) it becomes interesting.
           | 
           | If it's nearly 2k, it's a plaything for the rich that's both
           | fragile and may have issues that are likely to be poorly
           | supported by the vendor.
        
         | emacs28 wrote:
         | Personally I love my overpriced Samsung z fold, I don't use a
         | laptop anymore (just a desktop), I can easily read double-
         | column research articles wherever I am, it's great for drawing
         | diagrams, and all of that without having to remember both your
         | phone and a tablet everywhere you go.
        
         | jeroenhd wrote:
         | I want one, but not while they're this expensive. I'll wait for
         | the price to come down at least two thirds before I even
         | consider buying one of these.
        
         | JohnFen wrote:
         | > the $1799 price point
         | 
         | The folding bit has no value to me, but even if it did, that
         | price point is unacceptable. A phone is something I carry every
         | day and don't treat like a delicate flower. If it costs so much
         | that losing or breaking it would bring financial pain in
         | addition to the pain of the loss of the phone, it's not
         | suitable for my needs.
         | 
         | That said, I'm being overly cautious because I've never
         | actually lost or broken a phone.
        
         | gibspaulding wrote:
         | I can't ever see buying one, but it would be nice for reading
         | PDF's without constantly having to zoom and scroll around.
        
         | carlton_gauss wrote:
         | Anyone who wants the functionality of tablets, but doesn't want
         | to carry an extra thing everywhere. I'd pay easily $3000 for a
         | foldable with a good pencil and a good CAD app. Right now, the
         | only such device is the ipad with shapr3d.
        
         | atourgates wrote:
         | It's more than the price of a nice smartphone, and a nice
         | tablet.
         | 
         | An iPhone 14 and iPad Pro are gonna' run you $1,600, and be
         | more useful in most cases.
         | 
         | I mean, sure, you're not going to fit an iPad in your pocket,
         | but do you really need to? And when it's out, it's more
         | productive to have a separate tablet and phone, than just one
         | device that's trying to do it all.
         | 
         | Folding phones are a neat idea, and as a technical achievement,
         | this is impressive. But in terms of price and practicality? I
         | don't really see the appeal or value.
        
           | Jarwain wrote:
           | I've gotten a lot of value out of my fold 4, especially in
           | spontaneous situations where I don't have a tablet or my
           | notebook at hand. Pull out my phone, snap a picture, then
           | annotate. Or just pull it out and draw to try and get a
           | concept across. Reading or watching videos, sharing an image,
           | or whatever. And I Always have it with me, because I always
           | have my phone with me. I don't carry around my laptop
           | everywhere, and I've never purchased a tablet.
           | 
           | It's just remarkably convenient
        
           | xanathar wrote:
           | I, on the other hand, can't see a single reason why somebody
           | would want a tablet. We've had some, and they all ended up
           | forgotten in a drawer. Either I'm in a place where I have
           | whatever limited portability I can (so I use the phone) or I
           | have a laptop with proper keyboard, applications and OS.
           | 
           | On the other hand, I always have my phone with me and I'd
           | definitely benefit for a larger screen when reading emails,
           | websites, documents, planning trips or whatever.
           | 
           | That said, I would never pay that kind of price, neither for
           | a foldable, nor for an iPhone so I guess I'm out of that
           | market niche anyway.
        
             | xnyanta wrote:
             | I have an iPad for note-taking at school and literally
             | don't use it for anything else. In fact it's out of battery
             | most of the time I pick it up. My Samsung fold is just so
             | much more versatile and I hse it for media consumption most
             | people without a foldable hse a tablet for.
        
           | danwee wrote:
           | > Folding phones are a neat idea, and as a technical
           | achievement, this is impressive. But in terms of price and
           | practicality? I don't really see the appeal or value.
           | 
           | I thought that was the consensus... It surprises me that
           | Google is investing money on such a device. Weird.
        
             | manojlds wrote:
             | > Google is investing money
             | 
             | Unlike other prudent decisions from Google in the last
             | decade?
        
         | gtop3 wrote:
         | If you use your phone an average of 5 hours a day for two years
         | and then throw it in a junk drawer the hardware would cost less
         | than 50cents per hour of use. I use my $800 iPhone about 30
         | minutes a day, keep it for 4 years, and spend about $1 per hour
         | of use.
         | 
         | I'd say the market is heavy cellphone users that use apps that
         | benefit from the larger screen.
        
           | sidfthec wrote:
           | > If you use your phone an average of 5 hours a day for two
           | years and then throw it in a junk drawer the hardware would
           | cost less than 50cents per hour of use.
           | 
           | I don't understand this type of justification.
           | 
           | My fridge would cost around $65k for a 15 year lifetime at
           | $0.50/hour.
           | 
           | It just seems like a completely meaningless way to judge the
           | value of something.
        
             | deltree7 wrote:
             | You'd pay double the price for double the fridge capacity
             | (if doubling your capacity serves useful purpose for you)
             | 
             | You'd pay double the price for double the screen size (if
             | more screen size serves a useful purpose to you)
             | 
             | It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.
        
             | manojlds wrote:
             | "At the price of one coffee cup" is another thing that gets
             | me.
             | 
             | I brew at home and it's 10p for me, is that what you mean?
        
               | deltree7 wrote:
               | Irrelevant analogy. Let me know when you can build your
               | own Tablet.
        
               | lo_zamoyski wrote:
               | Technical sophistication is not equal to practical value.
        
               | _zoltan_ wrote:
               | 10p? based on p I think you're in the UK? what kinda
               | coffee is that?here a 3rd wave coffee costs around 42-50
               | CHF for a kilo and you need 18g for an espresso, so
               | 0.756-0.9 CHF per espresso if I calculate 0 for
               | amortization of equipment.
        
         | jamincan wrote:
         | Who wants to watch a movie on a square screen though? I guess
         | it would be better for browsing in most cases.
        
         | solveit wrote:
         | For me it was something that I could read papers on while still
         | (just) fitting in my pocket. Probably not the median use-case,
         | but still.
        
           | _boffin_ wrote:
           | I lug my iPad Pro 11 everywhere with me just so I can read,
           | write and do notes when I have any down time.
           | 
           | And yea, what you stated is why I want a foldable phone
        
       | mikece wrote:
       | $1800??? I'll pass... or spend that on a laptop or high-end iPad.
        
         | CameronNemo wrote:
         | My laptop budget is closer to $1400. And it is deferred until
         | next year ha.
        
       | danwee wrote:
       | From 1899 euros in Europe. Certainly, I don't really know who
       | feels comfortable using a 2K euros device while walking down the
       | street every single day. I would be so worried about it being
       | lost, getting scratch or what not. Besides, it looks huge.
        
         | leptons wrote:
         | I doubt they will offer the same kind of discount Samsung did
         | with the Fold 4. There's no way I would have bought the Fold 4
         | for its MSRP, but they gave me $1000 discount with a trade-in
         | of my old Galaxy S9+, so I got the Fold4 for essentially about
         | $800.
        
         | manojlds wrote:
         | That's how I already feel about $/PS/EUR 1000 phones.
        
         | theshrike79 wrote:
         | Anyone remember the amount of memes the first over $1k iPhone
         | generated? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
         | 
         | After that Samsung, and now Google, have released multiple
         | almost $2k devices to complete silence.
        
           | nerdix wrote:
           | They're foldables. It's a completely different product
           | category.
           | 
           | And it's pretty niche right now.
        
         | JLCarveth wrote:
         | > or $74.96/month with 24-month financing
         | 
         | I couldn't imagine financing a phone
        
           | thinkling wrote:
           | All the deals where the device is free/cheap with a wireless
           | subscription of at least 12 or 24 months are effectively all
           | financing arrangements.
        
             | nicoburns wrote:
             | While I can imagine purchasing one of those in the sense
             | that I know they exist, I'm pretty much with the GP in that
             | I can't imagine myself actually choosing to do so. I think
             | this is partly because new phones are just crazy expensive
             | these days, so I pretty much always buy a year-old model
             | second hand. But also because I don't like being locked
             | into such a contract (although to be fair, that last part
             | is somewhat of a privilege in that I am able to afford to
             | buy the phone up front)
        
           | sota4077 wrote:
           | I finance all my phones. But I refuse to have the cost of my
           | phone be more than the monthly plan itself. That is just
           | absurd. I have no problem paying $25-35/month for my phone
           | for 24 months. That seems more or less like a standard phone
           | plan at this point. But $75!? Good lord.
        
           | noncoml wrote:
           | If it's interest free, I'd be happy to finance even my
           | morning coffee. Who doesn't like ~10% discount?
        
           | gibspaulding wrote:
           | Generally I'd agree, but in this case I will point out that
           | 74.96*24 is 1799.04. At least (assuming you pay it of on
           | schedule), it's 0% interest.
        
           | Clamchop wrote:
           | At zero percent interest, it in effect reduces the price of
           | the phone, so perhaps you should reconsider it.
        
             | anonporridge wrote:
             | You'd be dumb not to take 0% financing.
             | 
             | Put the money you would have spent buying outright in a
             | savings account yielding 4%.
        
               | blep_ wrote:
               | Where did you find a savings account yielding 4%?
        
               | lotsofpulp wrote:
               | https://www.investopedia.com/best-high-yield-savings-
               | account...
               | 
               | https://www.doctorofcredit.com/high-interest-savings-to-
               | get/
        
               | anonporridge wrote:
               | This comment right here is part of why the banking crisis
               | has just barely started.
               | 
               | Tons and tons of people have their cash sitting in a
               | shitty Chase savings account yielding 0.1%, while there
               | are _many_ FDIC insured banks offering at least 3% and up
               | to 5%. As a critical mass of these people realize the
               | options available, they 'll rapidly move their money with
               | online transfers causing more banks to collapse. The
               | extremely rapid outflows are what killed SVB, Signature,
               | and Republic who were screwed because they had too many
               | low yielding treasuries because the Fed hiked rates so
               | fast.
               | 
               | I've been yielding over 3% in a Capital One savings
               | account since last year.
        
               | was_a_dev wrote:
               | Some accounts in the UK have been offering 6+%
        
           | halestock wrote:
           | That has been a thing pretty much as long as cell phones have
           | been around?
        
       | imranq wrote:
       | I can definitely see this being useful for work and school, but
       | not sure if I would use a foldable for everyday tasks.
       | 
       | Casing these phones seems like a challenge
        
       | gundmc wrote:
       | I love my Z Fold 3 form factor a lot more than I thought I would.
       | The one thing I've missed is the pure Google/Android software
       | experience without the Samsung bloat from my old Pixel phone.
       | 
       | This is very tempting, but given it's their first attempt and the
       | steep price, I'll probably wait for the Fold 2 to improve on any
       | growing pains.
        
         | grumpyprole wrote:
         | > without the Samsung bloat
         | 
         | That's one way of spinning it. Personally I'd rather have all
         | the Pixel users beta test Android, so I can get the bug fixed
         | version from Samsung.
         | 
         | https://www.androidpolice.com/google-pixel-6-bug-tracker/
        
           | kernal wrote:
           | So you prefer beta testing Samsung bugs?
        
             | grumpyprole wrote:
             | Pixel users get the new android releases and the
             | corresponding bugs first. I've never owned a Samsung phone
             | with such serious bugs as those described in the linked
             | article above, such as not being able to use a DAC.
        
         | skyyler wrote:
         | Prediction:
         | 
         | This is the prevailing opinion among people that would purchase
         | it. It will have disappointing sales numbers and there will be
         | no Fold 2.
        
       | TangerineDream wrote:
       | Further details at: https://blog.google/products/pixel/google-
       | pixel-fold/
        
       | Already__Taken wrote:
       | if my phone is already 5.8 inches, who cares if it folds out.
       | make it 3.5 and fold out for recipes and diagrams/notes. if I
       | need a 7" display I'll have a 10" in a bag with the added battery
       | pack and speakers it'll require anyway
        
       | spprashant wrote:
       | That's an ambitious price point. Who are they targeting with
       | this?
        
         | ushakov wrote:
         | Same people who would pay for Superhuman
        
         | rtkwe wrote:
         | It's price matched with the Samsung Galaxy Z Fold 4 that's a
         | direct form factor competitor. There are some more mid market
         | competitors but they're not on their own out there at 1800 USD.
        
         | soared wrote:
         | The most expensive iPhone is $1699, which is a 14 pro max with
         | a whopping 1 TB of storage. With 128gb it's only $1099.
         | 
         | I agree, seems pretty aggressive.
        
       | csdvrx wrote:
       | I'm not a huge fan of Google, but if Graphene can be installed
       | (and the bootloader unlocked), I would be interested!
       | 
       | Foldable devices like the Lenovo X1 fold are very nice to work
       | with "on the go": take a Bluetooth keyboard and your office is
       | everywhere!
        
       | dhruvmittal wrote:
       | Really looking forward to future generations of foldables when
       | the price is closer to $1000 than $2000. I've had my Flip 3 for
       | almost 2 years now and it's been a blast; I'm genuinely
       | interested in the larger foldable size, but the price is still
       | too steep for me.
        
         | CameronNemo wrote:
         | Meanwhile, I paid $250 for a used Pixel 6a and plan to use it
         | for another 2-4 years.
        
         | jclardy wrote:
         | Yeah - I understand the technology is complex, but if you think
         | about it you can buy a iPhone 14 Pro and an iPad Pro 11" for
         | the same price as a single foldable. Maybe it is too soon for
         | foldables, but usually "all in one" devices trend towards being
         | cheaper than buying the devices seperately they are supposed to
         | replace, since they are usually lesser versions of each device
         | (IE a super thick normal phone, and a small, squarish tablet
         | with a crease down the middle.)
        
       | wiseowise wrote:
       | Again fingerprint scanner in power button, way to be hostile to
       | left-handed people. Hard pass.
        
         | yuters wrote:
         | I'm left-handed but never had a pixel or a recent android
         | phone. What is the problem exactly? Something about the index
         | finger print vs the thumb?
        
           | wiseowise wrote:
           | It's impossible to comfortably unlock phone without using
           | right hand.
        
             | avidiax wrote:
             | You can scan your index fingerprint right?
        
               | wiseowise wrote:
               | That's uncomfortable compared to using thumb.
        
       | retskrad wrote:
       | Why is Google still making Pixel devices? They have made them
       | since 2016 and spent billions of R&D and ads and it has only
       | reached like 1-2% market share in the US.
        
         | SXX wrote:
         | Obviously Google want some reference Android devices that are
         | not full of Samsung or chinese crapware. Regardless of
         | marketshare they still release some decent devices.
         | 
         | For those of us outside of Apple ecosystem Pixel 6a for $350
         | (with some recent discounts) is one of the best modern devices
         | all around. Yeah you can certainly find something even cheaper,
         | but again it will be loaded with tons of non-Google spyware.
        
         | neilv wrote:
         | GrapheneOS users aren't complaining. :)
         | 
         | https://grapheneos.org/releases
        
         | solveit wrote:
         | Why did Microsoft keep Bing around for so long? It's
         | strategically important even if it doesn't do great.
        
         | guyzero wrote:
         | But it's growing really well!
         | 
         | https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/08/google-pixel-sees-hu...
         | 
         | In mid-2022: "...Canalys had Google up 380 percent year over
         | year, and this quarter, the company is up 230 percent."
        
         | robertlagrant wrote:
         | Up to 3%[0].
         | 
         | [0] https://www.androidauthority.com/google-pixel-market-
         | share-3... (I love how neutral this article is)
        
       | r00fus wrote:
       | You know what I'd want? A foldable tablet. I'd love a mini or
       | standard size tablet that can fold out like a newspaper into
       | something with good screen size. Hell, it'd be great for e-ink
       | also.
       | 
       | But a phone? I mostly use it to call / send texts and want it
       | pocket sized and durable.
        
       | dirtyid wrote:
       | What happened to outward folding form factor without the extra
       | screen? Foldable screens still not durable enough? Three screen
       | foldable seems like such a dumb design to settle on. Ditto with
       | aspect ratio with massive black bars when watching media.
        
         | avidiax wrote:
         | No one makes it but I would love a dual screen phone with e-ink
         | on one screen.
         | 
         | The aspect ratio might allow for always on playback controls
         | and a dedicated area for subtitles which could be nice.
        
       | sva_ wrote:
       | So what about the 8 Pro
        
       | thinkling wrote:
       | You can't look at the Google Store without signing in to a Google
       | account? _sigh_
       | 
       | EDIT: in Private Browsing mode I can access it, but in a normal
       | browser tab it requires me to give my password.
        
       | TobyTheDog123 wrote:
       | Yeah that price point makes it an instant pass - In all honesty,
       | phones, at least for me, have been reaching a point of
       | diminishing returns.
       | 
       | I upgraded from an iPhone 11 to an iPhone 14 recently, and the
       | difference was practically nothing. I didn't think it was
       | possible to experience buyer's remorse after waiting three whole
       | generations, but here we are.
       | 
       | I wouldn't be surprised if it's five years before a phone has
       | some jaw-dropping feature that I just have to buy, and if these
       | are the kinds of innovations Google is investing in, I might even
       | say closer to a decade.
        
         | robertlagrant wrote:
         | The biggest upgrade I had a while ago was buying a OnePlus
         | phone a few years ago and seeing how fast it charged. I stopped
         | thinking about my phone battery. That's the last real
         | innovation for me.
        
       | DiabloD3 wrote:
       | Yikes.
       | 
       | Google hasn't magically figured out how to fix the problem with
       | the screens failing after a few hundred bends; neither has
       | Samsung, which is most likely their display supplier.
       | 
       | On top of that, there is no viable market for a phone over $1200
       | (and, arguably, no market for over $1000, ask Apple how their
       | sales have been going down since the peak in 2015); what were
       | they even thinking? This is ridiculous even for a halo product.
        
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       (page generated 2023-05-10 23:00 UTC)