[HN Gopher] Psychoactive substance use by professional programmers
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Psychoactive substance use by professional programmers
Author : zdw
Score : 67 points
Date : 2023-05-10 18:27 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (arxiv.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (arxiv.org)
| dws wrote:
| "Notably, although officially psychoactive, we exclude caffeine
| due to its near-universal prevalence in software."
| mypastself wrote:
| Running on 3 billion devices and all that.
| comonoid wrote:
| It doesn't even mention the Ballmer peak.
| capableweb wrote:
| Alcohol is about interesting as a drug as caffeine or nicotine,
| compared to its peers.
| comonoid wrote:
| It is interesting enough for the authors.
| swayvil wrote:
| Sometimes, when I hit a wall algorithm-design wise, I'll get
| high. (weed).
|
| It works quite well. Well enough to keep using it as a getting-
| through-the-wall technique, certainly.
|
| New ideas will present themselves. New perspectives become
| apparent.
|
| I recommend it.
|
| (Attention is like a flashlight in a dark room. One of those
| focusable flashlights. You can narrow the beam to a very bright
| spot. Make a very small place very clearly lit. But that also
| renders the rest of the room pitch black (how deep is that
| darkness? Do you know???). Sometimes the broader beam is called
| for. Sometimes it's useful to lose control of the light
| entirely.)
| mostin wrote:
| Personally I get a Ballmer peak after a beer or two but I can't
| code at all high.
| swayvil wrote:
| I can't code high either. I don't code high. I take notes
| high. A sketchbook. Words, drawings, psuedocode.
| thomasfromcdnjs wrote:
| Same, love drinking while coding, one puff of weed and I'm on
| Youtube before I exhale.
| csdvrx wrote:
| My simpler solution is to cut on my sleep for just one day:
| after only 4h or less, I'm extremely tired but I have a lot of
| new ideas and perspectives.
|
| I'd only suggest doing that once every 2 week, and sleeping
| normally at least each night for the week before for maximal
| results.
|
| Also, it's a bad idea to code when tired (due to risks of
| negative productivity): it's better to just think and take
| notes, draw diagrams etc
|
| BTW I've heard people who are on ADHD drugs report a similar
| "too focused" attention: a very narrow beam on a very bright
| spot.
| swayvil wrote:
| I think it isn't a "too focused" effect so much as an "any
| focus" effect. It's just a matter of degree.
|
| And that darkness, that wraparound blind spot. _It doesn 't
| exist_. You know what I mean? It, in all likelihood, is not
| accounted for at all in your reality.
|
| I mean, you don't say to yourself, "gosh, I'm blind to all
| this stuff". No. _the stuff just doesn 't exist_.
|
| And add habit to the mix, that subconscious robot. Habit that
| governs this universe-dividing attention.
|
| Titanic feats of reality-conditioning could be happening
| right under your nose, constantly. And you'd never even know
| it.
| [deleted]
| TheDudeMan wrote:
| I read the title and abstract as "psychodelic". Was really
| excited to read the paper, then disappointed that it was about
| Adderall and friends. When is the paper on psychodelic software
| engineering?
| DANmode wrote:
| Use "microdose" in your search query.
| stan_kirdey wrote:
| it is well known fact that most programmers are unprofessional
| filoleg wrote:
| Ah yes, as opposed to all those professional people in finance
| wearing suits doing cocaine on regular? Is it their choice of
| the drug that makes it more professional?
|
| And no, I am not speaking just based on stereotypes, I
| personally observed it happen with a significant frequency with
| friends working in the industry. And the fact that the big
| finance office building I've been to had a very bice lounge-
| like area with chairs, sofa, wardrobe+coat hangers, and a
| coffee table as you enter any bathroom didn't help that
| perception either.
|
| Side-tangent note: I want to clarify what i meant by "a pre-
| bathroom lounge-like area", because it indeed difficult to tell
| what i was talking about just based on the paragraph above.
|
| You walk through a hallway and see two bathroom doors (M and
| F), so far everything is very usual. You open one of the doors,
| and instead of a typical bathroom, you see the type of a lounge
| room I described above. Literally just a normal lounge relaxing
| room, with a coffee table, a few comfortable lounge chairs, a
| small sofa, etc. You also see another door inside this lounge
| room (in addition to the door you entered through from the
| hallway). And that door is where the actual regular public
| bathroom is, with a row of stalls, sinks, etc. So the lounge
| room basically acts as a buffer room between the hallway and
| the actual bathroom.
|
| Is it a thing at all big finance companies? I don't know, and I
| think probably not, so this shouldn't be treated as a concrete
| proof of anything. And I honestly believe that only a small
| minority utilizes that room for anything but its officially-
| intended purpose. But it is a bit telling.
|
| And no, I don't think this makes finance people as a group
| unprofessional (or even as individuals; that would depend on
| their actual behaviors and interactions at their workplace).
| Just like I don't think a significant number of people in tech
| being into various drugs makes them unprofessional as a group.
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| That's how women's restrooms used to be where I worked long
| ago. No such lounge for the guys.
| filoleg wrote:
| Oh, that's interesting. For context, I am a guy and
| definitely went into the men's restroom in that anecdote
| above (so i cannot speak for the women's restroom in that
| same hallway). I just assumed they would make the same
| setups for both.
| momirlan wrote:
| checked the ladies room, same as gents
| luxuryballs wrote:
| and often most professional when on psychoactive substances
| stan_kirdey wrote:
| I am being sarcastic. Nobody even uses terms `programmer`, and
| I've never heard `professional programmer` in any engineering
| context. The title should state "Software Engineers ...`
| yamtaddle wrote:
| I use it all the time. "Software engineer" is bullshitty
| industry jargon, I don't use it without people outside the
| industry.
|
| [EDIT] Not "professional", though, admittedly. Usually
| "computer programmer".
| OkayPhysicist wrote:
| I like "Software Developer". What we do isn't anywhere
| close to engineering, but programmer feels a little
| constrained to just the coding aspect of the job.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| Yeah, I'll use that one sometimes, including with other
| software folks. I think it pretty much captures the whole
| thing.
|
| "Software engineer" I reserve for certain contexts in
| which I suspect I might be penalized for using another
| term. I don't think it's very accurate for like 99.5% of
| all "software engineer" jobs. Feels like using "sandwich
| artist" for "dude who works at Subway".
| hxugufjfjf wrote:
| I actually literally just heard the host of the Rust podcast
| Rustacean Station refer to himself as a professional
| programmer, and immediately realising how off that sounded,
| corrected it to <<got paid to write code>> or something of
| the sort.
| freedomben wrote:
| Relentless driving is one of the things I feel the software
| industry has really done themselves a disservice in the long run.
| I know of several engineers who went on Adderall because their
| performance (relative to their peers) wasn't high enough. With
| the help of Adderall they were able to get to a similar level.
| Then that raises the "average" which leads to more people having
| to turn to heavy stimulants just to keep their jobs.
|
| PMs and other management may feel like this is a win in the short
| term, but it isn't sustainable long term. The sheer number of
| software engineers who face burnout and/or have to take long
| multi-month sabbaticals to recover is shocking when compared to
| other industries where it's largely unheard of. Of course income
| is a factor (most other industries people don't make enough to
| allow them to take months off) but I don't think that explains
| all of it. I don't have any data to back this up beyond my own
| experience working in different industries, so take with a heap
| of salt.
|
| After so many years of this, it catches up to you. The difficulty
| performing is (sometimes, not always) a natural sign that your
| mind is overworked and needs a break. Regularly pushing through
| that and even using medication to help you is not consequence
| free. It's not just your mind that breaks down but also your body
| (especially adrenals). You can't handle unhealthy levels of drive
| and stress in perpetuity.
|
| Take care of your self and remember that long after the company
| has forgotten you, you're still tied to your mind and body. Take
| care of those things as IMHO they are the most valuable
| possessions you have.
| gtop3 wrote:
| This is largely the same argument for why performance enhancing
| drugs are banned in sports.
| sibeliuss wrote:
| My experience working with folks who claim ADD and treat it
| with Adderall is more akin to working with someone who has a
| drug problem. Sleeplessness, suddenly missing work, constantly
| forgetting to eat day after day, breakdowns, MIA in meetings,
| really poor code, and more. This has happened > 3 times in the
| past handful of years.
|
| My totally uninformed take is that these individuals
| emphatically do not suffer from ADD, but are victims of the
| "ADD software engineer industrial complex" that basically preys
| on folks who need a lot of focus to do their job. They get on
| powerful amphetamines, like it, go deeper, and then suddenly
| there's a _real_ health problem. It is a fact that these drugs
| are over-prescribed; it's basically a crisis. And there isn't
| nearly enough awareness of the dangers or the long-term impact
| on mental health.
|
| *Writing this as someone who has been down the addiction rabbit
| hole in the past, and knows the ropes.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| My issue with the matter is that I have ADHD, and I didn't
| seek treatment because of wanting to perform better a my job.
| It's literally the difference between me keeping my job or
| not, not crashing my car into another person's vehicle, etc..
|
| I still vastly under-perform compared to my peers despite
| being medicated. Any person that was taking stimulant
| medications without ADHD would absolutely blow me out of the
| water -- it's the main issue I have in regards to stimulants.
| It's be like a professional athlete taking steroids or other
| PEDs when competing against a high school aged sports team.
|
| When other people use stimulant medication for non-medical
| purposes then it causes me to be measured against an echelon
| of performance that is basically unobtainable i.e. the best I
| can function at is no longer "good enough."
|
| I mean, sure, there are probably a few other factors that
| also contribute to my issues other than just medication (lack
| of organization skills, past traumas, etc.), but it has been
| something I noticed even back when I was in college a decade
| ago. I knew plenty of people that faked symptoms to get a
| prescription. Meanwhile, I had to go through all kinds of
| testing, interviews, etc. to get legitimately diagnosed.
|
| However, I do not fault the individuals who take any
| substance medicinally or otherwise. We are all trying to make
| in this world, and I think a lot of our culture has created a
| demand that leaves many with no other options -- sink or
| swim.
| sibeliuss wrote:
| Just to be clear, ADHD is certainly a real thing, and I
| have a lot of compassion for those who suffer it. My
| anecdotal story is all about being able to clearly identify
| when someone is suffering from addiction or drug abuse,
| having been there myself. Such outcomes are a natural side-
| effect of a culture that overprescribes addictive (and
| often very enjoyable) chemical stimulants.
| peyton wrote:
| It is an ADA-recognized disability. You'd expect some trouble
| at work without reasonable accommodations. The treatment
| isn't 100%, as you've identified.
| iLoveOncall wrote:
| > but it isn't sustainable long term
|
| Why would they care?
|
| Long gone are the times where the majority of workers stayed at
| a company for a lifetime, so getting the most out of them for
| the few years that they will anyway stay is worth it in the
| eyes of their manager.
| idopmstuff wrote:
| > The sheer number of software engineers who face burnout
| and/or have to take long multi-month sabbaticals to recover is
| shocking when compared to other industries where it's largely
| unheard of.
|
| Is there data to back this up? Also, if engineers do take
| sabbaticals at a significantly above-average rate, is that
| because others don't need them as much or because they don't
| have the financial resources and relatively easy ability to get
| a job post-sabbatical (speaking more historically than for the
| current hiring environment) that software engineers do?
|
| For context, I'm a PM who sometimes uses substances to help
| with work and has also taken a couple of sabbaticals, though I
| would not say the two are related. My sabbaticals aren't out of
| a deep need to recover from burnout, but because I'm very
| employable with plenty of savings. It's really nice to have a
| few months off, and interviewing is much more pleasant when
| it's your only job.
| juujian wrote:
| Interesting. I had always though that Adderall might at a cost,
| I did not think it would be burnout. Was more curious how that
| would affect your sense of judgement etc. I am not primarily a
| coding person, and it always seemed more important to me to
| have well thought out ideas than how many lines I can write in
| an hour. So an environment where Adderall use is rampant, what
| does that even look like?
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| I don't think it affects sense of judgement, it just allows
| you to stay on task and grind where you might otherwise give
| up / spin your wheels. The downside I see in the people
| around me is that the drug makes you feel physically fine
| even without proper eating or sleep, as long as you keep
| doing the drug. But of course eventually it catches up with
| you and I see people getting increasingly unreasonable, but
| its from not sleeping, not from the drug itself.
| farnsworth wrote:
| Some people do it so that you can do a reasonable amount of
| work in 8 hours then sign out and enjoy their lives
| edgyquant wrote:
| Most code is boilerplate and adderall makes churning that out
| a breeze. It also allows you to quickly redo large amounts of
| code etc. I went through this myself at a former place and I
| moved so fast that I was managements favorite person- even
| though looking back a lot of the design decisions were short
| sighted.
|
| I eventually got better, so I have no idea how long a person
| can last before failing completely but it's at least a year
| or two.
| lisasays wrote:
| _PMs and other management may feel like this is a win in the
| short term, but it isn 't sustainable long term._
|
| You're saying they were aware of the Adderall abuse as it was
| happening?
|
| Or just that they saw all these stellar high performers around
| them and thought, "What's not to like?"
| johnmaguire wrote:
| I think it's more like... employee is put on a Performance
| Improvement Plan (PIP), employee goes to doctor and gets an
| Adderall script, employee is taken off PIP and management
| considers this a job well done.
| badpun wrote:
| > The sheer number of software engineers who face burnout
| and/or have to take long multi-month sabbaticals to recover is
| shocking when compared to other industries where it's largely
| unheard of.
|
| According to studies, there's tons of burnout in most
| industries - we're just the ones who can actually afford to
| take the sabbaticals.
| bazmattaz wrote:
| Yep this. The rest of us have to take sick leave
| yamtaddle wrote:
| ... or just suffer for years then eventually have your your
| life fall apart, because you've only got five sick days a
| year and you already used four of those taking care of sick
| kids who had to stay home from school, and it's only May.
| You could take your annual ten days of vacation, but you'll
| have trouble scheduling it as two full weeks in a row, and
| also that's not nearly enough to make much difference even
| if you could.
| siliconc0w wrote:
| I think this is looking at sentiment from interviews not
| objective results. It's common for these substances to make you
| _think_ you 're performing better but actually that may not be
| the case. (Though the use of caffeine is pretty ubiquitous and
| it's hard to deny at least short term improvements there, at
| least until it starts messing with sleep)
| ta988 wrote:
| 26 participants? That sound like a really solid statistical
| analysis. /s
| fsckboy wrote:
| statistical significance is a very subtle topic that I'm not at
| all equipped to explain, but we can start with, "significance
| comes from sample size, and is independent of population size."
| If you flip a coin 26 times, you will establish its bias to a
| high degree of certainty, results that will hold if you flip
| the same coin a million more times.
|
| if you are presented with a bag of a hundred coins, and another
| bag of a million coins, and you sample 26 of them from each bag
| and flip them, you will establish the same level of certainty
| about the bias of the coins in each bag. or something like
| that?
|
| I'm sure there are people here who can explain it better than I
| can, my point is to say "don't question a sample size of 26
| unless you really know what you are doing"
| tasty_freeze wrote:
| It sounds like they aren't reporting on what % of programmers
| use what substances. They interviewed 26 people for an hour
| each to find what they take, why, and what for.
| c54 wrote:
| Interesting that coffee isn't on there.
|
| I'd be interested in learning about drug use not during
| programming tasks too, especially for something like weed or
| psychedelics there's going to be much more use not at work,
| compared to adderall and caffeine.
| ipnon wrote:
| The software engineers who I knew were taking "Prescription
| Stimulants" were moody and hacked lots of code that caused more
| bugs than it fixed. Some people want to use it to make them
| better engineers but it can be a trap. The people who seem to be
| okay taking it everyday are those with such debilitating ADHD
| that they cannot get anything done in the course of a day without
| it. If you are a good programmer ceteris peribus then adding
| substituted amphetamine to the mix might backfire.
|
| Now these people I knew were also lauded for the frequency of
| their PRs and promoted. I suppose the crux is that if you're
| going to start such a regimen make sure your company uses
| perverse incentives as rewards.
| groby_b wrote:
| There's a large range of people who do have ADHD in a non-
| debilitating way who benefit from medication.
|
| Can I function without meds? Sure. But then I have to spend
| every single day wrestling my brain to the ground continually.
| There is no room in my life for anything but "functioning at
| work", because it's tremendously exhausting (much more than
| "normal") and leads to rapid burnout.
|
| I'm a fairly decent SWE. Ceteris paribus I am - post meds -
| roughly at the same quality level/volume of output I was
| before, but I have a better life overall.
|
| So maybe don't bulldoze a whole bunch of innocent bystanders
| because you personally had bad experiences with a few people
| abusing stimulants? (Also: Not all ADHD meds are stimulants)
| ravenstine wrote:
| There's probably some selection bias there. Many people with
| ADHD aren't so proud as to announce to people that they're on
| medication. It wouldn't surprise me if the engineers who told
| you they're on meds are just brogrammers who just take the
| stimulants for performance rather than to just feel normal.
|
| After having spent over a decade in the field, I benefit a lot
| from taking medication. I've been diagnosed with ADHD twice
| independently, and was initially opposed to medication. At this
| point in my life, I simply can't recapture the drive I once had
| that helped me overcome my dysregulated attention. My meds have
| helped me to _not_ burn out.
| freedomben wrote:
| > _The software engineers who I knew were taking "Prescription
| Stimulants"_
|
| Most people don't advertise or even share their list of
| medications/prescriptions with their colleagues, so I would be
| careful about drawing conclusions based on your sample. There
| are most surely people you worked with that were taking stuff
| that you had no idea about.
| [deleted]
| gtop3 wrote:
| Even though I never had any intention of taking illegal drugs
| while employed, I've always turned down job offers that come with
| a condition of drug screening. It always seemed invasive and
| controlling, which is an awful way to start a relationship with
| an employer.
|
| This is counter to interviewed individuals who, despite drug use,
| largely ignored company drug policies.
| ipaddr wrote:
| They don't screen for legal drugs like Adderall anyways
| FredPret wrote:
| "Pee in the cup" isn't how good jobs start
| mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote:
| Don't they? Amphetamine is on most standard screens and it's
| not like the test can tell whether the amphetamine came from
| prescription pills or street drugs.
| op00to wrote:
| The test just says pass or fail. If you show the testing
| facility a script, they'll pass you for the thing.
| wilg wrote:
| Commander William Adama of the Battlestar Galactica has a
| similar policy and it served him well.
| ftxbro wrote:
| If you read their pdf they are mainly talking about "Prescription
| Stimulants (e.g., Adderall, Ritalin), Cannabis (e.g., Marijuana,
| Weed), Alcohol (e.g., Beer, Wine), and Mood Disorder Medication
| (e.g., SSRIs, Wellbutrin)" and others to less degree.
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