[HN Gopher] Ten Thousand Ways to Use Chopsticks
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Ten Thousand Ways to Use Chopsticks
Author : weatherlight
Score : 76 points
Date : 2023-05-09 16:45 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (marcosticks.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (marcosticks.org)
| mastermedo wrote:
| Most of my Eastern friends use the scissorhand grip, while my
| Western friends use a mix of righthand rule / standard. TIL
| thanks!
| gretch wrote:
| As an ethnic chinese person (grew up in the states but parents
| immigrated and don't speak english) I've always tried to convey
| this to my non-asian friends.
|
| When we go out to eat together, they always ask me what's the
| 'right way' to hold chopsticks and I tell them that you guys
| think about this way more than any chinese person I've ever met.
|
| It's 2 sticks; put the food in your mouth. Did you do it? If so,
| then you're good. It's not deeper than that. Plenty of times in
| my family we would just stab stuff because that was the easiest
| thing to do and no one thinks twice.
|
| addendum: growing up, I organically evolved the 'scissorhand'
| grip. At like ~18 years old, I consciously switched to standard
| because I was trying to pick up something small and realized my
| grip lacked precision.
| [deleted]
| dgeiser13 wrote:
| As a white dude:
|
| > It's 2 sticks; put the food in your mouth. Did you do it?
|
| No. The food is not in my mouth. Now what?
| gretch wrote:
| Then I would diagnose your technique and give you some
| advice.
|
| In all of my personal experiences though, I've never seen
| someone fail on this level. It was almost always anxiety
| about 'proper' form.
|
| Or, they just needed to use a spoon. People forget chinese
| cuisine comes with a spoon a lot of the time (same with
| korean) and sometimes the spoon is the better instrument.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| > they always ask me what's the 'right way' to hold chopsticks
| and I tell them that you guys think about this way more than
| any chinese person I've ever met.
|
| They're really hard to use if you didn't grow up using them and
| also haven't put in _quite a bit_ of practice. They may be
| hoping for tips to make it less difficult.
| robofanatic wrote:
| > They're really hard to use if you didn't grow up using them
| and also haven't put in quite a bit of practice.
|
| This is true with most tools. If you have never used it in
| your life even a tool as simple as pencil can be challenging.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| A pencil's exactly what I was thinking about comparing it
| to, actually. Spoon, fork, knife... hell, shovel,
| screwdriver? All easier. Pencils and chopsticks are more
| precise and require more fine motor control.
| OJFord wrote:
| I think chopsticks are more than twice as hard as a
| pencil (even never having used either) simply because
| you're trying to use two rods _together_. (Unless we
| allow just stabbing stuff I suppose, but that only works
| with certain foods and generally they won 't be the whole
| meal anyway.)
| yamtaddle wrote:
| The only methods I've ever managed to make work rely on
| holding one of the sticks still so only one's moving, but
| it takes a fair bit of concentration and focus to achieve
| that. It's way easier than having both in motion, but
| still really _wobbly_ and tricky.
| OJFord wrote:
| That's certainly what I (aim to!) do too, I just think
| that's still like .. writing with a pencil while trying
| to hold the paper still on a moving platform, or in mid-
| air (even with a backing/a notepad), or something.
| oldtownroad wrote:
| As a white person who grew up in the west, I was berated often
| for holding my knife and fork the "wrong" way and so it's
| instilled in me that there is a "right" way to use utensils --
| thankfully, I only embarrassed myself a few times asking about
| the right way to use chopsticks before learning.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| > I was berated often for holding my knife and fork the
| "wrong" way and so it's instilled in me that there is a
| "right" way to use utensils
|
| Norms on that vary country-to-country, as does which hand the
| fork and knife go in, plus things like cutting a single bite
| at a time vs. pre-cutting several, or things like using a
| different hand to hold the fork while cutting versus while
| picking up food to eat, or keeping them in the same hands the
| whole time.
|
| [EDIT] Oh, and tines-up vs tines-down!
| gretch wrote:
| Sorry for your experience. In my opinion those people were
| using chopstick technique as a vehicle for their bullying.
| Take the chopsticks out of the equation and they are probably
| doing some other form of gatekeeping.
| qumpis wrote:
| I thought that parents in China are very strict about
| instilling "the right" chopstick habits.
| ipnon wrote:
| You usually can tell who grew up mainly using chopsticks to
| eat because they don't have a standard grip. It's people who
| start using them when they're older who have proper form.
| adhesive_wombat wrote:
| Many parents in the UK are very strict about knives and
| forks, to be fair. Usually in my ham-fisted experience in
| frustratingly inverse proportion to the likelihood of serving
| peas and other small vegetables and grains as opposed to
| easily tackled lumps of beige and gloopy-sauced beans.
|
| And, in the UK and China and elsewhere, some parents are,
| evidently, decidedly _not_.
| powersnail wrote:
| That's just a stereotype taken from a small fraction of the
| population. There is one alleged proper form, but many adults
| don't even do it that way, let alone instilling it on their
| child. Most parents are cool as long as the child can use the
| chopstick, which is exactly how adults who don't hold it the
| "proper" way come into being.
|
| Theoretically, the proper form has some practical advantage.
| Practically, the difference in utility is minuscule.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| >That's just a stereotype taken from a small fraction of
| the population.
|
| It was absolutely a Big Deal part of table manners when I
| was a kid, FWIW. SE Asia, southern China, late 70's. FWIW.
| qumpis wrote:
| I based my comment on convos with a few Chinese friends,
| all anecdotes from their childhoods though.
| zht wrote:
| There is definitely a right way.
|
| But no one would be offended if you didn't hold it the right
| way
| esturk wrote:
| So you admit the standard grip is "better" than the scissor
| grip.
| gretch wrote:
| You put the most significant word in your question in quotes,
| which means that you are putting some kind of special non-
| standard meaning on it. I can't guess at what you mean.
|
| What do you mean is it "better"?
| alanbernstein wrote:
| Well it does kinda make sense to think about it explicitly, to
| make up for lacking the formative experience of growing up
| using them. But I get your point, it's a funny contrast.
|
| I've been wondering recently, how and what age do Chinese
| households get their children started using chopsticks? You
| make it sound like there isn't much instruction, if any. In my
| house, where spoons and forks are available, I think we have to
| actively encourage our toddler if we want her to try
| chopsticks.
| kadoban wrote:
| > When we go out to eat together, they always ask me what's the
| 'right way' to hold chopsticks and I tell them that you guys
| think about this way more than any chinese person I've ever
| met.
|
| As someone who both learned to use chopsticks as an adult and
| also taught _several_ people how to use them: what they're
| likely asking for is the basic hand position to use.
|
| It feels real awkward at first, so it's not obvious. The less
| correct ways feel about as awkward at first, but never actually
| improve too much, so it's really not a bad thing to ask.
| ghaff wrote:
| At some point early-on, I decided that the "correct" (don't
| really even remember which finger at this point--probably
| middle finger) top knuckle position someone taught me just
| didn't work for me for whatever reason. So I essentially use
| two fingertips.
|
| >Plenty of times in my family we would just stab stuff because
| that was the easiest thing to do and no one thinks twice.
|
| And, yeah, there are some things like dumplings that
| conventional chopstick usage just don't really work all that
| well for with many people.
|
| (Per article I was probably taught something like standard rule
| but use something closer to finger pistol.)
| ackfoobar wrote:
| This reminds me of the bowling analogy.
| https://daedtech.com/how-developers-stop-learning-rise-of-th...
|
| It's a ball; rolling it down and hit the pins. It's not deeper
| than that.
|
| Just like bowling, some ways to hold them get you more
| precision and control.
|
| Efficiency aside, I don't think they're overthinking it
| worrying about table manner of other cultures. It's no
| different from learning which forks to use in a Western formal
| setting.
| gretch wrote:
| I don't really think this is anything like that bowling
| analogy.
|
| -Bowling is an explicit competition. Eating is not. -Bowling
| has objective markers for performance (160/300). Eating
| doesn't -Bowling is completely human created (as is software
| creation). As a result, both are highly abstract. Eating is
| one of the most basic things we all do
|
| The skill ceiling for chopsticks is extremely low. Once the
| food gets into your mouth and you are able to nourish
| yourself, the game is solved. Bowling is capped at 300.
| Software creation is not capped presumably.
|
| > It's no different from learning which forks to use in a
| Western formal setting.
|
| Yes I completely agree. In my opinion it's a useless form of
| gatekeeping used to artificially put people in 1 class over
| another. This is the type of thing we do when we eat at King
| Charles' coronation and I reject it.
| ackfoobar wrote:
| Every analogy can be stretched to the point that things
| don't match up. My original point is only about the skill
| ceiling.
|
| > Bowling has objective markers for performance (160/300).
| Eating doesn't
|
| Neither does software engineering, the thing discussed in
| the linked article.
|
| > The skill ceiling for chopsticks is extremely low.
|
| Occasionally foods can be slippery or delicate. Then the
| grip force (which generates friction) and precision matter.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| As a caucasian who grew up in SE Asia... Lemme tell you, the
| number of times I was politely but firmly 'corrected' in how to
| hold chopsticks as a kid (which varied literally from family to
| family, so there was no way to win this game) is an equal part
| funny and stressful memory. :D Local parents had Strong
| Opinions on this!
| murphyslab wrote:
| One piece of analysis missing from Macrosticks is how hand size
| and shape is influencing individuals' preferred hold. The author
| seems to have an underlying thesis that it's all about how the
| holder learned, but I don't believe it.
|
| I learned at ~8 and my "ah ha!" moment came when I realized that
| it was easier to hold chopsticks with my left hand despite
| writing right handed. Now I can do it well enough with both
| hands.
|
| My hold is somewhat like the "right hand rule" grip, although the
| lower chopstick fits into the groove of my thumb unlike the
| reference photos. And while I've tried other grips -- as
| demonstrated to me by Asian friends -- they've never "fit" with
| my relatively large hands.
| gnicholas wrote:
| This is great! Reminds me of how my uncle can hold two
| spoons/forks like chopsticks to serve food quickly and
| efficiently. I never mastered the technique, but it seems like a
| useful skill to have!
| anon946 wrote:
| Seems to be more about holding chopsticks. But two ways to _use_
| chopsticks that might be less known:
|
| Opening a bottle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPLrGfAbhnw
|
| Also, I couldn't find a video, but at least in my Asian family,
| we will sometimes cut food like, say, an eggroll by using the
| chopsticks as a scissors.
|
| Lastly, a chopsticks hack is that they are great way to eat food
| like buttered popcorn without getting your fingers greasy. :-)
| dantraztrev wrote:
| Also info about using chopsticks with hand impairment
|
| https://www.accessible-japan.com/surviving-without-chopstick...
| abudabi123 wrote:
| An interesting challenge is for Tesla Bot Optimus to function at
| an eating house and intervene when a 6 year old is operating the
| chopsticks subergonomically and the parents don't know howto.
| Which of the East Asia cultures can train the best A.I.? More
| challenging than the team sport robo football tournaments.
| _ZeD_ wrote:
| still trying to understand what's wrong with fork and spoon to
| eat
| crumpled wrote:
| The emoji at "Scissorhand" is one of the defective scissor
| glyphs.
|
| Just an observation.
|
| This page is great. I was just discussing chopstick techniques
| last night during dinner with my 5-year-old.
| kibwen wrote:
| Chopsticks themselves are not homogenous:
| https://nadhrahwritesatrefruit.medium.com/the-different-desi...
|
| Different countries favor different chopstick designs and
| materials, which can influence the comfort of different grips.
| dirtyid wrote:
| I'm still struggling to find a comfortable grip for korea's
| flat steel chopsticks.
| robofanatic wrote:
| I am in my mid 40s, so far none of them has worked well for me. I
| have tried to hold it in a lot of different ways but soon lose
| patience. I guess the food is too tempting for me than trying to
| figure out how to eat it :-) I always fall back to my backup ->
| fork. One day I'll master it.
| knaik94 wrote:
| One thing I see most online guides not mention is the idea of
| changing grips depending on the food/task or how your hand is
| feeling. Certain grips take more energy than others, and
| different style of chopsticks require different grips too.
| Chinese cooking chopsticks are so versatile in the kitchen, but
| require a different set of techniques being 13 to 17 inches.
|
| When using chopsticks to pick up medium sized things like
| popcorn, my grip is further back on the chopsticks and usually a
| standard grip because it feels less tiring and gives me more
| control. When I am picking up something very small or heavy, I
| often switch to something closer to the vulkan grip, because
| using the pads on my ring finger gives me more leverage, fine
| dexteriry, and a wider range of wrist motion. But it's also more
| tiring.
|
| I learned how to use chopsticks as an adult, because my favorite
| place to eat lunch was a little korean restaruant. After a few
| weeks, I felt confident enough to ask one of the owners to
| critique my technique. He said I was as proficient as him and he
| found it humerous how I used them for the rice, the standard in
| Korea is to use a spoon.
|
| I feel that for snacks and certain meals, the chopstick is more
| useful while eating the majority of it, but a spoon is better for
| getting the last bit. I started using chopsticks for snacking
| because I found it makes distracted eating harder.
| wahern wrote:
| Beetle mandibles looks close to the grip for using spoons or
| forks as tongs, which skillful waiters sometimes make use of at a
| restaurant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4-X7NZ2cFw
|
| That's a technique that will turn heads regardless of one's
| chopstick-using heritage.
| zwieback wrote:
| Is there a difference in level of chopstick decorum between
| Japanese and Chinese?
| anigbrowl wrote:
| Yes. Besides the grip (where the standard matters more),
| Japanese food culture emphasizes particular ways of picking
| things up. Stabbing a piece of food with your chopstick is
| considered poor manners.
| modernpink wrote:
| I believe this goes back to the ancient Shinto belief that
| all beings are inhabited by kami (gods). Therefore to pierce
| a food is to pierce the god within. This is also why origami
| developed more broadly in Japan, because paper cutting (a
| Chinese artform) would damage the kami whereas folding
| fortified the kami. That is why much origami is of animals.
| There is also a belief that all food prepared in Japan is
| given "as is": a crafted piece given down from a master sushi
| chef, a wagashi artisan, or a tonkatsu expert. Sliced, shaped
| and formed as a bespoke morsel for the diner, not to be
| tampered with, but to be appreciated whole.
| esturk wrote:
| The "roll" angle (as in roll/pitch/yaw) w.r.t. your elbow is
| relevant.
| tonymet wrote:
| Any effort to evangelize chopsticks to the west is a welcome one.
| "chopstick shaming" should be avoided. There are so many useful
| applications including cooking, preparing, serving food.
| Chopsticks are effectively sanitary fingers (when used politely).
|
| Years ago i used chopsticks to eat snacks at work, in order to
| keep my keyboard clean. People ridiculed me in a friendly way.
| They've since come around.
|
| Since covid people have become more conscious of sanitation and
| to a lesser degree table etiquette and i'm glad to see chopsticks
| supporting both of those trends.
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| I agree, and I find them useful for even non-food tasks like
| fishing small things out of jars, but they aren't really
| 'sanitary fingers' if you're in the middle of eating with them,
| are they? They must have at least a little saliva on them,
| unless you make a point of only dropping things into your open
| mouth?
| tonymet wrote:
| Yeah i mean using clean chopsticks, and since they are
| plentiful, you can have one set out per dish / jar to serve -
| plus personal sets for guests
| pengaru wrote:
| They're more finger extending isolators than sanitary
| fingers.
| Filligree wrote:
| Your own saliva. The point is you're not ferrying bacteria
| from the meeting rooms to your mouth.
| ackfoobar wrote:
| Some restaurants provide two sets of chopsticks of different
| colours for this reason. Use one to pick up the food, use
| another to eat with.
| yongjik wrote:
| As a Korean, I can confirm that chopsticks serve as a great
| germ distributor. Their ends go into your mouth and then end
| up poking everything else on the table. :)
| droopyEyelids wrote:
| Whisking eggs with chopsticks works SO much better than using a
| fork, and the cleanup is a million times easier than using a
| whisk.
|
| Additionally, you can use the chopsticks in the pan while
| you're cooking, saving another tool that would need cleaning
| tonymet wrote:
| brilliant! two sticks - so easy to clean
| yamtaddle wrote:
| My technique for whisking eggs follows Jacques Pepin's and
| proper form (and speed) means you're forming a large hollow
| under the fork on each upstroke, driving a lot of air into
| the eggs. Can you achieve that with chopsticks, or is it just
| not needed with them?
|
| > Additionally, you can use the chopsticks in the pan while
| you're cooking, saving another tool that would need cleaning
|
| This part definitely seems great, though.
| OJFord wrote:
| Not GP, but I would imagine you use both together like a
| narrow (flat) spoon, or a thick single-pronged fork; so I
| don't see why not. You only miss out on the gaps between
| prongs, but albumen's too viscous for them to have any
| effect anyway. I either use a small whisk or a fork, but I
| don't consider the latter special in any way it's just
| something that's convenient in our kitchens, as chopsticks
| are in others'.
| [deleted]
| orhmeh09 wrote:
| > Years ago i used chopsticks to eat snacks at work, in order
| to keep my keyboard clean. People ridiculed me in a friendly
| way. They've since come around.
|
| This is the thinking gourmand's way to avoid greasy/orange
| fingers from eating chips.
| ufo wrote:
| As illustrated in this classic comic:
| http://wondermark.com/601/
| tonymet wrote:
| and I was sure i was the inventor. great idea!
| RajT88 wrote:
| Absolutely. My wife and I both use chopsticks a lot. Both of us
| came to them via interest in Japan in college.
|
| FWIW, I apparently use the "double tripod" grip, standard
| always felt less precise for me, although "double tripod"
| cramps my hand after a while.
| gretch wrote:
| Also, they are very easy to wash and keep clean because they
| are 2 straight sticks. There's no nooks and crannies like
| between the tines of a fork.
|
| One of the main reason I like mine
| tonymet wrote:
| well said!
| samus wrote:
| A work colleague told me of a camping trip where they forgot to
| bring cutlery. They made do with a knife and their fingers. I
| suggested to next time look for some branches and turn them
| into chopsticks. I'm pretty sure this is the way chopsticks
| actually came about.
| dekhn wrote:
| For cooking, I just think of chopsticks as spring-loaded tongs
| (a standard food service tool) but without the spring or hinge
| (which is implemented by your hand). The are great for delicate
| work although I prefer tongs due to their scalloped edges.
| tonymet wrote:
| There are pros and cons. I prefer chopsticks in cases where
| tongs aren't needed, because they are easy to clean and don't
| scratch the surface. They also pivot to other uses like
| stirring, light beating, turning (e.g. a cutlet) . chopsticks
| can keep me from soiling 2-3 other hard-to-clean utensils
| mastax wrote:
| Yeah. You can get very large cooking tweezers which can
| perform the same job, but easier for those of us who haven't
| been using chopsticks all our lives.
|
| (I can use chopsticks okay but I can't just pick them up and
| immediately grab stuff, I need to adjust my hand position
| usually. Tweezers it's just grab and go.)
| OJFord wrote:
| Do you mean like barbecue sausage flipping tongs, or actual
| tweezers like you might find in a chef's arm pocket?
|
| Just curious because I'd never have thought to use the
| former like I've seen chopsticks used in films, and the
| latter I'm surprised to hear anyone would use at home -
| seems like such a Michelin star-chasing presentational
| tool! (And don't get me wrong, I love cooking, probably put
| more thought into presentation even just for myself than
| the vast majority.)
| yamtaddle wrote:
| > (I can use chopsticks okay but I can't just pick them up
| and immediately grab stuff, I need to adjust my hand
| position usually. Tweezers it's just grab and go.)
|
| I use them rarely enough that I have to re-learn it each
| time. By the end of my dish I'm usually, finally,
| approaching the level of skill with them that I suppose a
| normal Chinese 2-year-old has. And I can only do _that_
| much because at one point, years back, I spent some time
| deliberately practicing with them.
| secondcoming wrote:
| Really? A fork and a spoon is far more superior.
|
| It shocks me that chopsticks are still used and that people
| like using them. They're definitely not for me.
| ackfoobar wrote:
| I don't mind you calling your way superior. I'm sure it is
| superior for you and the food you eat. But not elaborating
| adds nothing to the conversation.
|
| For me, chopsticks are superior in picking up crisps. No
| greasy fingers, as GP noted. You can't stab them with a fork;
| they're prone to falling off a spoon, whereas chopsticks can
| grip them from both sides.
| robofanatic wrote:
| > sanitary fingers (when used politely)
|
| Nothing against chopsticks, but I politely disagree with the
| sanitation part. Eating your own food with bare hands is not
| unhealthy.
| tonymet wrote:
| it's more about pivoting between work and eating . like using
| a keyboard while eating cheetos.
|
| Also they interrupt the habit of licking fingers.
| saratogacx wrote:
| I think it is more the other way around. They're keeping your
| hands sanitary, from the food, for other uses. Using
| chopsticks while eating keeps the food from getting all over
| your hands (cheeto fingers).
| robofanatic wrote:
| ok, that makes sense, especially if you are multi-tasking
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| My foreign exchange student (Japanese, FWIW) told me I held
| chopsticks wrong, ha ha.
|
| I can't quite find the exact way I hold chopsticks on the chart
| -- maybe Finger Pistol but my middle & ring have a good grip on
| the lower stick.
|
| I am pretty sure I learned by looking at the little pictures on
| the chopsticks wrapper when we ordered Chinese food. (There was
| some confusion in the text -- something about "Tuck under
| thurnb...")
| neom wrote:
| Random story: My wife's Korean family always comment on how I'm
| better at using chopsticks then them, it's something that always
| seems to come up. In fact one of the first things my wife proudly
| said to my in-laws when we first met was "look he's so much
| better at chopsticks than us" - I just graciously declined the
| compliment, insisted it's not true etc and moved on, but always
| makes me chuckle at bit and I've never asked why they think that
| for fear of appearing rude (or that they're being polite because
| I'm white).
|
| Thing is... I find Korean chopstick style way easier to use than
| Chinese. I learned to use chopsticks on Chinese sticks + Lateral
| Chick held at the very very top of the sticks, these days I
| mostly use standard, and adjusting to Korean chopsticks from
| Chinese is almost like moving from driving stick to auto.
|
| I guess the sticks matter as much as a grip. :)
| [deleted]
| izzydata wrote:
| Time to practice lateral Gangnam style.
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(page generated 2023-05-09 23:02 UTC)