[HN Gopher] Dutch town installs bat-friendly red LED street ligh...
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Dutch town installs bat-friendly red LED street lights (2018)
Author : maxwell
Score : 103 points
Date : 2023-05-08 19:18 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (electronics360.globalspec.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (electronics360.globalspec.com)
| 1letterunixname wrote:
| Seems like something Austin would do, but anti-grackle* lighting
| would be a better use of funds.
|
| *Grackles are small corvids that are fearless, loud, and
| annoying.
| TylerE wrote:
| " Despite a currently robust population, a recent study by the
| National Audubon Society of data from the Christmas Bird Count
| indicated that populations had declined by 61% to a population
| of 73 million from historic highs of over 190 million
| birds.[12] As a result, it is now classified by the IUCN as
| Near Threatened."
| dudeinjapan wrote:
| Kavinsky should move there.
| AngryData wrote:
| I don't understand why red light is not the default for night
| lighting and street lamps and maybe even car headlights. Red
| light allows you to see while still maintaining your night
| vision. Blue or white or whatever other color you use will ruin
| your night vision and only allows you to see what is decently
| illuminated and anything outside that zone becomes invisible.
| cronix wrote:
| The US Navy agrees with you, and is one of the reasons why
| interior lighting in ships/subs is red during battle so you can
| quickly switch between daylight and red without eye adjustment.
| Plus it looks cool.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi1R2UK3OTA
| spurgu wrote:
| Yeah I have red LED lighting in my boats for night lighting
| and also use the red light almost exclusively on my headlamp
| at night when camping, to maintain my night vision.
| munificent wrote:
| _> will ruin your night vision_
|
| But it takes about 45 minutes for your eyes to fully adapt to
| darkness.
|
| So if we were to use red lighting at a level of illumination
| that assumes fully adapted eyes, it means people won't have
| sufficient brightneses for the first 45 minutes of their drive,
| which is likely most of it.
| GloriousKoji wrote:
| Stop signs will be the same color as everything else.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Stop signs have a unique shape to them, as well as a big STOP
| text written on them.
| excalibur wrote:
| The white-on-red text is going to be very low contrast
| under a red light. The shape is still supposed to be
| unique.
| argondonor wrote:
| The blue tint disrupts your sleep cycle and helps keep you
| awake when driving at night. There's definitely a trade off to
| be had depending on where these lights are located though.
| TylerE wrote:
| Red is also really low contrast, at least at non-night-vision
| destroying lumen levels.
| Galaxeblaffer wrote:
| says what evidence? it's pretty much been debunked for a long
| time, and the whole premise is apparently based on bad
| science. I'm pretty sure i read an article here on hn that
| showed that this whole blue light scare was based on old
| science with extremely limited sample sizes and extreme
| exposure. i tried to link to an article from 2016 that still
| says that it affects sleep because i hastily read the first
| part. trying to dig up the article i read seems to be hard,
| but at least I'm still pretty sure that the science is not
| settled on the matter at all.
|
| earlier posted article
| https://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-04-debunking-digital-
| eye...
| mainframed wrote:
| Do you always link to articles supporting your opponents
| view? (Hint: read the last section of the article)
| joshvm wrote:
| If you're referring to melatonin then the science really
| isn't that clear. Most light suppresses melatonin
| production.
|
| One of the biggest arguments against blue light
| (specifically) being disruptive is that the sky spectrum
| in the evening is also blue (so naturally you'd be
| exposed to it). Modern airliners use blue lights for
| overnight flights with red lights at "dawn". I suspect
| screen brightness is more of an issue than any particular
| colour.
| mlyle wrote:
| The dynamic range of the eye is confusing for aspects
| like this.
|
| The amount of blue light you're exposed to from the night
| sky is trivial. Outdoors on a moonless night is 0.002 lux
| (of which, my understanding, about half is airglow and
| fairly blueish).
|
| Compare to a not-too-bright single blue LED in your
| bedroom, emitting 0.5 lumens. You could spread that over
| 2000 square feet of surfaces and still have more blue
| light around than comes from the night sky.
| TylerE wrote:
| Lux != lumen. Lux is lumen _per unit area_.
| BenjiWiebe wrote:
| Isn't that what they are saying? 0.5 lumen spread out
| over 2000 sq feet is still more lux than the night sky?
| mlyle wrote:
| Yes... that is why I divided by area. Read again.
| moremetadata wrote:
| [dead]
| mainframed wrote:
| I'm not referring to anything. I just found it hilarious
| that the guy, to whom I replied, linked an article which
| contradicted himself.
|
| I have no stance on this. I don't even care. I can sleep
| well at night.
| Galaxeblaffer wrote:
| touche..
| TheRealPomax wrote:
| It's not really the "blue" part. It's the "forcing yourself
| to be awake when you shouldn't be" part that disrupts your
| sleep cycle. Driving at night when you should be in bed is so
| much more the problem than whatever color the light is. For
| you as human at least =)
| ketzo wrote:
| That's the point -- the blue is to help break the cycle
| further and keep you awake, when your body insists
| otherwise!
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| Our eyes are the least sensitive to it so it requires more
| light (which means more overall brightness, which actually
| makes your night vision worse and limits visibility of
| everything not lit, because your iris closes more) and it
| provides poor visibility/contrast and no color vision.
|
| The only advantage red light offers is not disrupting your
| circadian rhythm.
|
| Airplane instrument panels are lit with white. Saab, Volvo, and
| plenty of others use white or nearly white light for their
| dashboards.
|
| Blue is used in theater only because it is less noticeable to
| the audience when it spills or reflects somewhere it shouldn't.
|
| The real question is: especially with even 10 year old car
| headlights being so much better than the utter trash car
| headlights were 30 or more years ago, why are we still wasting
| so much energy, and impacting wildlife, and hurting millions of
| people's circadian rhythms, blasting streets with light all
| night?
|
| There isn't even any argument in terms of public safety;
| there's never been any proof that lighting reduces crime. Lack
| of lighting forces people up to no good doing things where they
| shouldn't be, to use lights themselves - which stands out much,
| much more than someone doing something they shouldn't be under
| outdoor floodlights.
| derefr wrote:
| > why are we still wasting so much energy, and impacting
| wildlife, and hurting millions of people's circadian rhythms,
| blasting streets with light all night?
|
| For pedestrians?
|
| (I agree with your reasoning as it applies to highways, but
| most of the world's light pollution from overhead street
| lighting comes from lighting done either 1. within dense
| cities, or 2. within industrial complexes -- in both cases to
| aid people walking around outside at night.)
| mgaunard wrote:
| I actually find that my visibility on highways is worse for
| the parts that are illuminated by streetlights than for the
| parts that are only illuminated by my car.
|
| I've found for example that it's extremely dangerous to go
| beyond 180kmh (110 mph) at night whenever there are street
| lights, while it's sort of ok if you just have side mirrors
| on the highway reflecting your own lights (not that I
| recommend to anyone to drive at such high speeds,
| especially in low visibility conditions).
| smolder wrote:
| Bright night time lighting is often installed here as
| "security lighting". Meaning the bright light is primarily
| there to make people uncomfortable and not commit crimes.
| The pink-orange glow of sodium bulbs was so nice and
| inviting compared to all these daylight blue parking lot
| projectors. I wish I lived somewhere where outdoor lighting
| needed a permit and the issuing authority rejected
| everything above X lumens or Y color temperature.
| elric wrote:
| As a pedestrian, I'd be much happier with a LOT LESS light
| at night. Though I have to admit that the overhead street
| lights aren't my biggest concerns (except for the newer
| awful white/blue LEDs). Car headlights are what really piss
| me off. Heck, even tail lights can blind me at night.
| AlecSchueler wrote:
| The Netherlands has many streets that are designed as "low car"
| streets or "bike first" streets.
|
| The white lights are important for road safety but the Dutch
| have developed methods of softly discouraging the kind of
| traffic that makes the road dangerous.
|
| This is especially common in residential areas. Most town
| centres are pedestrianized but retain brighter lighting as they
| can still be quite busy public areas in the evening.
| rocqua wrote:
| Technology connections (youtube channel) did a video about
| this. There was a trade-off between night vision and circadian
| rythm disruption vs driver safety.
|
| Cooler light is better at keeping people awake and alert, and
| people drive safer when they are alert. Given that car
| accidents are a major cause od death, that is a hard point to
| compromise on.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| Yikes isn't this a nightmare for some colorblind people as the
| red light will not be clearly visible or provide much contrast
| for what they see?
| cultureswitch wrote:
| Good thinking, but this isn't how colorblindness works.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| Alrighty but the color blind person I know says otherwise and
| can't use red headlamps...
| munificent wrote:
| That's not how red-green color blindness works.
|
| They are still able to perceive illumination from red lights.
| They just can't distinguish its hue from green as well as
| others.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| Right which is why I say it will screw with their contrast.
|
| I say this because someone I know who is colorblind can't use
| a red headlamp when outdoors. A lot of people use red lights
| to preserve their night vision, but for this person they
| can't see clearly with it vs. a white light.
| smolder wrote:
| Not unless there's a specific type of blindness I'm unaware of.
| Color blindness only impacts color perception, not perception
| of luminosity, AFAIK.
| 1letterunixname wrote:
| San Jose, CA has/had low pressure sodium lights to reduce light
| pollution for the benefit of Lick Observatory on Mt. Hamilton
| since at least the early 1980's.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lick_Observatory
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| It's not to reduce light pollution, it's to have all the light
| pollution be in an exceptionally narrow band that the
| observatory can then filter out.
|
| The reason LED lights are so terrible for astronomers is
| because although they require much less light to achieve the
| same visibility, the spectrum is very spread out across
| multiple peaks, with different manufacturers having different
| peaks.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| It would be nice to get an update from the submitter or some
| other friendly soul -- are they still used, what reactions and
| outcomes have they had?
| MonaroVXR wrote:
| My cousin lives in that village, I will need to ask about it. I
| lived very close by, let me ask it.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| If the initiative was discontinued, it hasn't been in the news:
| https://news.google.com/search?q=Zuidhoek-Nieuwkoop
| mwattsun wrote:
| I spent months underwater on a submarine and we used mostly red
| lights in the sleeping quarters and the control room. I don't
| know the theory, but I figured red lights don't produce the
| momentary blindness of looking at a white light.
| alephxyz wrote:
| Red light doesn't overlap as much with the sensitivity of the
| rod cells in our eyes which are responsible for night vision
| (see https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1416_Color_Sensi
| ti...)
| cyberpunk wrote:
| I think they look pretty cool too:
| https://www.themayor.eu/uploads/image/file/1031/medium_batst...
| Kognito wrote:
| Looks like something out of a horror movie.
|
| Does remind me of the old low-pressure sodium street lighting
| that was popular in the UK when I was growing up. They'd glow
| pink for a while when they first turned on, before turning a
| deep orange.
| nemo44x wrote:
| We had those in the USA as well. If you kicked the pole hard
| enough you could make it go out for a few minutes.
|
| the light they produced was the best and I wish we still used
| them, or at least an LED that mimics the orange color.
| cubefox wrote:
| I remember being teached pole kicking as a drunk
| teenager...
| petre wrote:
| I think sodium lights are more pleasant than red light
| district themed street lighting.
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| They're still around here in Poland. I don't think they get
| installed anymore, but where they still work fine they're
| still there.
|
| I love them. That's the best night-time lightning out there.
| Blueish LED lightning is unsettling in comparison. These
| orange street lights are comfortable to eyes and make the
| streets look pretty.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| Love the sodium lights. The white LEDs here have a blinding
| spectrum, also are installed so they glare straight into
| your eyes. Insane.
| throwawayben wrote:
| big positive of the LED lights is much less light
| pollution, but I do wish they could be warmer
| actionfromafar wrote:
| It's _exactly_ the other way around. Now I 'm afraid this
| is some kind of common misconception, like "not only are
| LED great when it comes to efficiency, they don't pollute
| the light either!"
| xyzzyz wrote:
| Sodium light is actually pretty great from light
| pollution perspective, because it is extremely easy to
| filter it out, as it is a very narrow band. Astronomers
| prefer sodium lamps, for example.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| Dead moths prefer sodium lamps too, or something.
| Currently, LEDs are kind of stupid, too. The parking lot
| outside my home has fixtures with builtin LEDs which will
| last, like forever. So there's no need to make the LEDs
| replaceable like a bulb had to be.
|
| Except they _do_ break (they dim into a faint glow, and
| the brown out completely) and they have to replace the
| whole fixture.
| rocqua wrote:
| They were common in the Netherlands like 15 years ago.
| cultureswitch wrote:
| Cool but very weak
| AlecSchueler wrote:
| It's really all you need for eg walking the dog at night.
| I've only seen them used on streets where cars are very rare
| especially in the evening.
| dahwolf wrote:
| Dutchie here. I haven't see these red LEDs become widespread
| although I do sometimes see dim green lights on bicycle paths.
|
| Another interesting regulation here is related to insulation.
| Small bats tend to get inside walls and under roof tops. As
| people are improving insulation en masse, this act may kill or
| displace these bats. So you have to check for them and make
| amends if they're there. A common and easy way is to attach a bat
| home to your house. Some of them are really cool:
|
| https://media.s-bol.com/gJJMmEXxPyRr/781x1200.jpg
|
| I love my little bat friends. During summer months I can time
| their forage session to the minute. Then I just watch them circle
| around the garden picking up the mosquitos.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> attach a bat home to your house_
|
| Never knew these were a thing but it's exactly what I expected.
| Deserves a bat signal.
| doublesocket wrote:
| We built one into the gable end of our roof during
| renovation: https://imgur.io/Gc42NPn?r
|
| (and added appropriately bat-wing shaped bargeboards)
| exabrial wrote:
| How does this compare to sodium-vapor lamps?
|
| Side note: I recently learned that all of the blue/purple street
| lights are actually defective LEDs:
| https://www.businessinsider.com/led-city-streetlights-turnin...
| Zamicol wrote:
| The moon is white. White is the most natural color of light at
| night. White street lights are probably the most natural
| approximation.
|
| The article doesn't say anything about white light, but does say
| "Normal street lighting can affect a bat's flight" but doesn't go
| into detail. I would love more detail.
| StingyJelly wrote:
| Definitely not the most natural approximation for the number of
| moons.
| haarts wrote:
| The intensity of moon light is on an entirely different level
| than street lights.
| 40four wrote:
| Sounds like a marketing 'puff piece' to me. Here, accept this
| 'fact' about red lights, unsubstantiated by any details or
| references as truth. And you're going to like it because it
| supposedly is environmentally friendly. And because it 'feels
| good' you won't ask any questions and repeat it to friends and
| family as if it were truth.
| dahwolf wrote:
| What are you talking about? People exploring nature at night
| have been using red lights for decades. It's standard
| equipment.
|
| There's no mystery around the reason to use red light either.
| Nocturnal animals, especially mammals, have far more rods
| than cones in their eyes. This means they are much more
| sensitive to brightness than they are to color.
|
| Red light in practice is far less bright than white light for
| the same input energy (a bit more complicated than this) and
| for quite a few animals they may not see it at all or very
| poorly.
|
| None of this is theorizing, the effect can be readily seen in
| practice.
| handedness wrote:
| The intensity of a street light is vastly higher. They
| typically produce 10x-100x more foot-candles versus a full moon
| on a clear night at a bright latitude.
|
| Even under ideal conditions, the earth receives <=1 lumen per
| square meter of light from the moon. A single streetlight can
| project tens of thousands of lumens (or more) over a relatively
| small area.
| morsch wrote:
| Presumably having white light would also not be harmful
| assuming it's as dim as the moon. Which, don't get me wrong,
| can get surprisingly luminous, but not when compared to street
| lighting.
| smolder wrote:
| > The moon is white. White is the most natural color of light
| at night. White street lights are probably the most natural
| approximation.
|
| You say "white" as if there's only one color white, which isn't
| the case when you're talking about a range of lighting
| temperatures. The moon also has a unique light profile that it
| reflects. It's not the definition of white. Either way, if
| you're advocating for something resembling 6500k daylight white
| lighting at night, there is nothing at all natural about that.
| The moon casts a very dim light, even at its brightest.
| [deleted]
| WeylandYutani wrote:
| One of those things that happens when your country is too rich
| and peaceful.
| downvotetruth wrote:
| Street lights without motion sensors on side streets are a waste
| of electricity and a source of light pollution.
| smolder wrote:
| Some people actually argue it's good for safety and
| particularly _reducing crime_ , but you won't catch me agreeing
| with this motivation. I'll bet there is some curb
| appeal/property value angle, too. People seem eager to abandon
| reason when it comes to their home equity.
| wouldbecouldbe wrote:
| Reminds me of windmill, they kill lots of bats & birds.
|
| If we are working on an environment friendly energy alternative,
| it feel sweird it kills lots of animals.
| jabroni_salad wrote:
| Do you believe that the aviation lights on the turbines is
| what's killing the birds, as opposed to the other parts of the
| structure? such as the spinny blade bit?
| wouldbecouldbe wrote:
| nah I don't mean the lights, I just mean the general effect
| of technology we use and not always aware of the side
| effects. I never hear it as an argument against a windpark
| wyager wrote:
| I have a hope that over the next 20-40 so years, we see extensive
| commercialization of digital night vision (not the crap you get
| on amazon, but the solid-state version of high-voltage IITs that
| the military is currently testing), flat lenses, and AR glasses,
| such that we get to a point where acceptable-quality night vision
| is as ubiquitous as acceptable-quality cameras are now on
| smartphones.
|
| One of the big upsides of such an outcome would be that we could
| ditch things like streetlights entirely, cutting back a great
| deal of light pollution.
| maria1998zx wrote:
| [flagged]
| loeg wrote:
| Bat friendly, human hostile. Not a great trade-off.
| haarts wrote:
| How is it human hostile?
| jessekv wrote:
| I hope my town does it too.
| rqtwteye wrote:
| Why human hostile?
| kazinator wrote:
| You can't go out at 2 a.m., stand under a streetlight and
| read a horror novel written in bat blood ink, like you used
| to.
|
| But that's the point!
| loeg wrote:
| Check out the picture in the article. Good luck using that to
| see by.
| maria1998zx wrote:
| Si
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| Interesting, but does red lighting not have a different
| physiological or psychological impact on humans?
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Beneficial for human night vision while not being materially
| detrimental (wrt physiological or psychological impact).
|
| https://www.healthline.com/health/why-not-to-have-red-lights...
|
| https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/2075/does-red-li...
| eternalban wrote:
| This is looking forward to the day when bats and machines will
| peacefully coexist bathed in red light.
| dudeinjapan wrote:
| This would actually be an awesome movie plot. Town adopts red
| lighting, Dracula moves there, a string of grisly murders
| ensues, corrupt town bureaucrats refuse to get rid of the red
| LEDs despite mounting evidence, nightvision/flamethrower-
| equipped mechs needed to roast out the vampires. Well I guess
| its not peaceful coexistence.
| [deleted]
| lelandfe wrote:
| More or less the plot of Fallen London
| maria1998zx wrote:
| [flagged]
| erikerikson wrote:
| A whole new meaning for "the red light district", eh Amsterdam?
| ;D
| 1letterunixname wrote:
| Maybe there will be outdoor red window boxes for rent.
|
| It's disconcerting to be walking around Amsterdam, turn a
| corner, and there's a woman dancing in a rented box seeking
| customers.
|
| Perhaps outdoor lighting would offer more warning.
| capableweb wrote:
| > It's disconcerting to be walking around Amsterdam, turn a
| corner, and there's a woman dancing in a rented box seeking
| customers.
|
| Well, to be fair, it's not really widespread all around the
| city, it's not like you suddenly turn a corner and there is a
| surprise box right in front of you.
| mgaunard wrote:
| Did the vampires take over the Netherlands or something? Why save
| the bats?
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(page generated 2023-05-08 23:00 UTC)