[HN Gopher] Everything happening on Bluesky
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Everything happening on Bluesky
        
       Author : CharlesW
       Score  : 85 points
       Date   : 2023-05-05 15:35 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.theverge.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.theverge.com)
        
       | dahwolf wrote:
       | Seems like the early mover effect. Regardless, these fediverse
       | wars are fascinating to watch.
       | 
       | Mastodon has the interesting situation where enthusiasts want to
       | grow the network by having high profile characters join yet
       | paradoxically the culture is exactly opposite to that. They frown
       | upon influencer culture, anything remotely capitalistic, famous,
       | etc. They're also against basic features like search, quote
       | tweets, recommendation algorithms, anything proven and essential
       | to make a network grow. Admittedly, those mechanisms do tend to
       | lead to the culture seen on Twitter.
       | 
       | Hilariously, that's what people seem to want. The high profile
       | Twitter users that had every chance to join Mastodon, never did.
       | Yet immediately jump to Bluesky.
       | 
       | In response, Mastodon (the company) seems to finally come around
       | and make some changes (easier to join, quote tweets coming, etc).
       | 
       | Ultimately, the moderation approach is going to be decisive. In
       | my view, Mastodon is "toxically safe". It leads to a culture
       | unfit for the masses.
       | 
       | Bluesky's long term culture is unclear to me, but I imagine it
       | will be Twitter-like on the main server.
        
       | arrakeen wrote:
       | > the service was straining under something that would become
       | known as "the hellthread"
       | 
       | hellthreads have been a thing on the fediverse since forever,
       | it's as if the people behind bluesky didn't even bother to spend
       | any time there before deciding to do their own thing
        
         | capableweb wrote:
         | > hellthreads have been a thing on the fediverse since forever
         | 
         | "hellthreads" have been a thing on the internet since people
         | started interacting with each other on the internet. I don't
         | think people on the fediverse invented the word either, the
         | first time I saw something named "hellthread" I think was on
         | early Twitter.
         | 
         | Also, I don't think anyone is claiming that Bluesky invented
         | the word. The article just says that a particular thread
         | started being called such, and specifically "the hellthread"
         | instead of the general "hellthread".
        
         | brundolf wrote:
         | The people on bluesky are not actually upset about the
         | "hellthreads", they're mostly reveling and laughing about it.
         | It's a fun piece of chaos, feels very early-internet
        
       | lapcat wrote:
       | > Although Bluesky is currently hosted on only one server under
       | the control of the Bluesky team, its intention is to eventually
       | become a decentralized protocol for a multiplicity of federated
       | servers with a variety of different moderation practices
       | 
       | At this point they're just kicking the can down the road,
       | postponing the problems that Mastodon already had to face.
       | 
       | If mastodon.social were the entirety of Mastodon, it would seem a
       | lot more user friendly.
        
         | capableweb wrote:
         | > At this point they're just kicking the can down the road,
         | postponing the problems that Mastodon already had to face.
         | 
         | Seems they're finally publishing more details about it:
         | https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/5-5-2023-federation-architecture
        
           | lapcat wrote:
           | > The federation architecture allows anyone to host a BGS,
           | though it's a fairly resource-demanding service. In all
           | likelihood, there may be a few large full-network providers,
           | and then a long tail of partial-network providers.
           | 
           | The blog post seems kind of hand-wavy. One question is, how
           | do they make the few large BGS censorship-resistant?
           | 
           | (I know I'm violating the HN guidelines, but I hate how
           | they've hidden the scrollbar on that blog post.)
        
         | spaceman_2020 wrote:
         | Maybe its because of my crypto years, but nothing tunes me out
         | of the conversation more than "decentralized".
         | 
         | There is no such thing. You can try your best but the laws of
         | human behavior pretty much ensure that centralization and
         | cartelization will happen, unless specifically stopped via
         | outside regulators.
        
           | bombcar wrote:
           | The best you can get is something like DNS or email, which
           | are "decentralized" in theory but quasi-centralized in
           | practice.
           | 
           | Which is much better than other systems; "twitter but like
           | email" is a reasonable goal.
        
             | thinkmassive wrote:
             | You can get more decentralization than those services
             | provide, but not without sacrificing usability and/or
             | security.
             | 
             | https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko's_triangle
        
               | bombcar wrote:
               | One key to a successful decentralized system is not being
               | able to spam with it; if someone learned how to spam
               | using BGP or DNS we'd all be screwed.
        
         | brundolf wrote:
         | Bluesky made some key decisions that are different from
         | Mastodon:
         | 
         | - Profiles and posts are portable across hosted instances. If
         | you have a problem with your admins, etc, you'll be able to hop
         | away without much fuss.
         | 
         | - Moderation is decoupled from hosting. They're still working
         | out the details, but the overall vision is that the global
         | firehose is public, and you'll be able to opt in and out of
         | different moderators which operate on that stream. If you don't
         | like what a moderator is doing, you'll be able to just turn
         | them off for yourself. Moderation doesn't prevent people from
         | posting, it allows people to prevent themselves from seeing.
        
           | quaintdev wrote:
           | > If you don't like what a moderator is doing, you'll be able
           | to just turn them off for yourself. Moderation doesn't
           | prevent people from posting, it allows people to prevent
           | themselves from seeing.
           | 
           | This is going to polarize people even further.
           | 
           | Before social media, had you seen people with radical views?
           | Yes there were cults but it was all limited. Social media
           | polarizes people and with this kind of moderation it seems
           | it's only going to exacerbate the problem.
           | 
           | There will be no one left in these polarized groups to
           | correct their course.
           | 
           | Edit: It's going to create more and more groups who don't
           | want to connect and have a discord on common issues.
        
             | giantrobot wrote:
             | > There will be no one left in these polarized groups to
             | correct their course.
             | 
             | This presumes polarized groups start neutral and can
             | somehow being corrected away from polarization. People
             | often seek out polarized spaces and then get _more_
             | polarized but they 're starting far from a neutral
             | position.
        
             | brundolf wrote:
             | a) You could say this about any communication channel- the
             | web, email lists, group chats, in-person meetings. Should
             | we require a moderator in every social sphere?
             | 
             | b) Personally I think butting heads and being outraged by
             | what _others_ are saying is the bigger factor in
             | polarization, which this would actually help with (at
             | least, I 've noticed I became a lot more politically
             | nuanced and a lot less emotional when I made a concerted
             | effort to pare down my twitter feed using blocks and mutes)
        
             | BeFlatXIII wrote:
             | How is this any different than servers on the Activity Pub
             | network?
        
           | BaseballPhysics wrote:
           | Which is all good in principle, and it'll be interesting to
           | see how it works out.
           | 
           | The profile portability story is good, save that as far as I
           | can tell, Bluesky server operators don't actually do much
           | save for provide storage and a place for clients to connect
           | to, specifically because the algorithms and curation are
           | being treated as a separate layer. So ironically I see far
           | less reason for identity portability in that ecosystem since
           | (to my knowledge) the server you're using doesn't have much
           | of an impact on your experience.
           | 
           | Additionally, this layered functional architecture creates
           | new kinds of problems.
           | 
           | For example, with Mastodon, if I'm helping fund my instance
           | (which I do) I'm also helping fund the moderation staff,
           | because the instance architecture and the moderation story
           | are tightly coupled.
           | 
           | With BS, moderation is a separate service which has to be
           | funded... how?
           | 
           | Same goes with curation.
           | 
           | So I still have a _lot_ of questions about the Bluesky model.
           | 
           | And this is all assuming they actually pull off what they
           | claim, and it's still _waaaay_ too early to say if this 'll
           | all work in practice.
        
             | lapcat wrote:
             | > So ironically I see far less reason for identity
             | portability in that ecosystem since (to my knowledge) the
             | server you're using doesn't have much of an impact on your
             | experience.
             | 
             | One of the biggest reasons why people change Mastodon
             | instances is because the instance shuts down.
             | 
             | I had to do an emergency switch because my instance admin
             | went AWOL, and it was breaking down technically. In other
             | cases, the admins decide they don't want do run an instance
             | anymore, for whatever reason.
             | 
             | If posts could be migrated on Bluesky, that would be a vast
             | improvement over Mastodon.
        
               | BaseballPhysics wrote:
               | You are right, that is definitely one very good reason
               | why many people move (though in the Mastodon world, I
               | would argue it's probably not the biggest reason outside
               | of weird events like the shutdown of mastodon.lol), and
               | in the Bluesky world, probably the primary reason (since
               | there's no concept of local moderation or community
               | policies that you might disagree with, thereby leading to
               | an instance switch).
        
               | lapcat wrote:
               | > I would argue it's probably not the biggest reason
               | outside of weird events like the shutdown of mastodon.lol
               | 
               | A number of such events have occurred.
               | 
               | I haven't actually heard of anyone moderated off an
               | instance (aside from spammers), but maybe I hang with the
               | "wrong" crowd for that.
        
               | BaseballPhysics wrote:
               | It absolutely happens.
               | 
               | Eh, tbh though, I don't know why I was arguing that
               | point, it really doesn't matter one way or another.
               | 
               | You absolutely identified a very good reason to want to
               | switch instances, and why account portability has value
               | in the Bluesky world.
               | 
               | I wish ActivityPub had a better solve for this, but
               | unfortunately a true federated model makes that awfully
               | difficult (since the entire ecosystem has to update its
               | view of where posts are located).
               | 
               | Similarly, if I'm in a length email exchange with a
               | friend on Gmail, and then I move to another service,
               | there's no way to update my friend's account to "rewrite"
               | those emails to point to the new service. It's a deep
               | limitation in the model itself. The only question is
               | whether the tradeoff is worth it (and, to me, it is).
        
               | brundolf wrote:
               | Another very cool decision they made for AT
               | Protocol/Bluesky is making user identity domain name-
               | based. So you _can_ just sign up as a subdomain of eg
               | .bsky.social, but you can also bring in a custom domain
               | name. This neatly solves identity-portability and even
               | trust /verification in one swoop
               | 
               | (you can also change which domain your bsky profile is
               | identified by, which, I'm not quite sure how that works
               | at a protocol level but it is possible)
        
               | giantrobot wrote:
               | > This neatly solves identity-portability and even
               | trust/verification in one swoop
               | 
               | Until you lose control of the domain for any number of
               | reasons and then whoever buys it happily continue on as
               | _you_. A simple credit card processing problem can lose
               | your  "identity" at some point in the future.
        
               | brundolf wrote:
               | The same is true if you use a custom domain for email,
               | for your company's servers, for any number of other
               | critical things. It's no different (and arguably those
               | other things are more catastrophic than losing control of
               | a social media profile)
               | 
               | Also, to emphasize, regular people who don't do those
               | other things don't have to roll a custom domain on bsky
               | (and are unlikely to). But eg. if NPR wants to make a
               | bsky account under @npr.org, that's really quite good
               | verification that it's "the real NPR account", and then
               | nobody has to deal with any of the politics around
               | verification which have become a dumpster-fire on twitter
               | since Musk took over
        
               | giantrobot wrote:
               | Using a domain for verification isn't the worst idea but
               | there's still some things to work out. How will the
               | service handle homoglyphs domains? Are they going to ship
               | a webfont that makes homoglyphs obvious? Will they
               | display punycode? It's all well and good the real NPR can
               | use @npr.org but what will npr.org end up looking like on
               | the service? Will it be distinct enough _normal_ users
               | will be able to distinguish it from the real domain as
               | displayed on the website or app?
        
             | brundolf wrote:
             | > So ironically I see far less reason for identity
             | portability in that ecosystem since (to my knowledge) the
             | server you're using doesn't have much of an impact on your
             | experience
             | 
             | To an extent, though I still think it's valuable for
             | situations where eg. a host might decide they don't want to
             | host you if you post certain content. In the same way: a
             | website host doesn't normally have much of an impact on
             | your experience, unless they decide to kick you off or
             | otherwise exert control over you
             | 
             | > moderation as a separate service, which has to be
             | funded... how?
             | 
             | It's an interesting question; I think some of it will be
             | answered with algorithmic/AI-based filtering (false-
             | positives are more tolerable if users have the ability to
             | opt out!). People have also talked about a model where you
             | can just share (or subscribe to) communal block-lists. So
             | maybe your circle of friends does its own internal
             | "moderation" just by using the site (blocking people is
             | already a normal part of my day today usage of both bsky
             | and twitter)
             | 
             | With a platform this open and flexible, there are tons of
             | options to be explored!
             | 
             | > And this is all assuming they actually pull off what they
             | claim, and it's still waaaay too early to say if this'll
             | all work in practice.
             | 
             | It definitely is! But I'm excited and hopeful
        
           | Waterluvian wrote:
           | That moderator idea seems huge to me. That means Moderation
           | is less like a benevolent dictator that people might disagree
           | with, and more like a view filter.
           | 
           | There can then be many ways to implement the filters: voting,
           | dictators, AI, etc.
        
             | brundolf wrote:
             | Yep! Bluesky's solution to many of Twitters problems and
             | controversies is "give people the tools to solve them how
             | they want to for themselves"
        
           | afiori wrote:
           | One thing that moderation should also do is restrict which
           | accounts can see your posts in their discovery feed. Even if
           | the posts are public and those account would be able to
           | navigate to the posts with a link sometime some of your
           | followers are just there to spam/troll.
        
           | kmeisthax wrote:
           | >Profiles and posts are portable across hosted instances. If
           | you have a problem with your admins, etc, you'll be able to
           | hop away without much fuss.
           | 
           | As far as I can tell, this is only with cooperation of the
           | server owner; since their "DID Placeholder" relies on a
           | server to provide a string of identity updates. ActivityPub
           | can do the same thing with HTTP redirects; and Mastodon
           | supports cooperative profile redirection, which is morally
           | equivalent. Polycentric[0] is a tad more decentralized than
           | this, AFAIK it's specifically designed to make cryptographic
           | keys first-class identities (so called "sovereign identity").
           | No clue if they've managed to solve the obvious pitfalls of
           | cryptoidentity.
           | 
           | [0] Another censorship-resistant social networking tool being
           | funded by FUTO Tech, of whom Louis Rossman is a spokesperson
           | for
        
             | thinkmassive wrote:
             | Handles are DNS names that point to the DID
             | 
             | https://atproto.com/guides/identity
        
       | brundolf wrote:
       | Explanation of how it actually works, please read before making
       | assumptions: https://atproto.com/docs
        
       | riffic wrote:
       | it's still in doubt who exactly _owns_ bluesky pbllc, but there
       | has been some discussion and the claim is that it is owned by
       | "the team" (which is vague and doesn't specify who or quantify
       | how much stake is held by a shareholder).
       | 
       | again, who owns the PBLLC?
       | 
       | after clearing that up, I suppose my other question concerning
       | Bluesky is if they intend to submit their protocol to the IETF or
       | something. It's weird they're doing this whole thing parallel to
       | protocols like W3C ActivityPub.
        
       | rvz wrote:
       | So far Bluesky has learned the mistakes of Mastodon's awful
       | search and 'choose an instance' confusion and has a default
       | server ready for users to use, instead of being forced to choose.
       | But it risks repeating the same mistakes as Clubhouse if it
       | doesn't open its invite system once another wave happens.
       | 
       | The next wave of users running away from Twitter will happen when
       | the orange man takes back his Twitter account and sends his first
       | tweet in years, with the media screaming about it. Probably later
       | this year, but who knows.
       | 
       | We'll see how Bluesky really performs on adoption when that next
       | wave happens.
        
       | mg wrote:
       | I have not yet tried Bluesky, but paradoxically, I think the
       | "success" that currently everybody wants to try Bluesky might be
       | an indicator that it will fail.
       | 
       | If there is so much demand, why does nobody offer a free and open
       | client? This might be a sign that it is hard to write and/or run
       | one.
       | 
       | I tried Nostr and it was extremely easy. Because it is so easy to
       | write and run a client, there are plenty already.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | brundolf wrote:
         | People have released multiple open-source alt clients (mostly
         | in beta states, because it hasn't been very long). I've played
         | with the API myself and it's really quite easy to use,
         | especially with an SDK (there's an official one in typescript
         | and community ones are sprouting up in almost every major
         | language). I'm in a discord for people doing stuff with the API
         | that has almost 1k members
        
           | mg wrote:
           | I tried Nostr on a web client. It was pretty easy. Just going
           | to the website was enough. I have not seen such a thing for
           | Bluesky yet.
           | 
           | Is there a client online that one can simply use by visiting
           | a website?
        
             | brundolf wrote:
             | You could definitely build a read-only one; only account
             | creation and the things that go with it are invite-only,
             | the rest is already public and distributed. I don't know of
             | a client like you describe existing yet, but I could use
             | the API endpoints I've already worked with to build one if
             | I wanted to take the time.
             | 
             | Edit: here's one https://skypulse.dvy.io/
        
               | mg wrote:
               | The invite-only aspect is part of the protocol?
        
               | brundolf wrote:
               | There's an underlying protocol (AT protocol), and then
               | there's the Bluesky app that's built on top of it (and
               | has its own public API, etc). Only the Bluesky layer
               | requires authentication (and is therefore gated behind
               | closed signups for now). My understanding is it's mainly
               | gated because they're a tiny team experiencing explosive
               | growth, so they have to make sure it doesn't take down
               | the whole system (they recently had to migrate DBs
               | because users doubled in 24 hours)
               | 
               | High-level explanation of the protocol:
               | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35822267
        
               | mg wrote:
               | But why are there no other public webclients that let you
               | create an identity and communicate via the AT protocol?
        
               | tedunangst wrote:
               | Because currently nobody communicates via AT. There's
               | nobody to talk to.
        
               | brundolf wrote:
               | There's a layer of data and interaction that exists at
               | the application level right now. I don't know exactly
               | where the line is drawn between the two, but I think eg.
               | likes might be at the bsky level right now (while posts
               | themselves are at the AT Protocol level)
               | 
               | I believe the team plans to move as many things as
               | possible down to the AT level over time
        
             | thinkmassive wrote:
             | Yes, staging.bsky.app was the web client all along. They
             | finally acknowledged it's really a prod site, so now
             | they're moving it to bsky.app
        
         | xxpor wrote:
         | The vast majority of people moving to Bluesky do not care about
         | decentralization or open clients or any of that. Like, at all.
         | 
         | https://twitter.com/ryxcommar/status/1651704456088518656
        
           | BaseballPhysics wrote:
           | I agree, the vast majority of people moving to Bluesky don't
           | understand their history and now appear to be doomed to
           | repeat it.
        
           | brundolf wrote:
           | Which is why it might succeed: regular people want to use it,
           | not just enthusiasts
        
             | jacooper wrote:
             | Regular people don't want to deal with invite codes.
        
               | random42_ wrote:
               | I remember a time when people _sold_ invites for GMail
               | and the list of buyers wasn 't short at all.
        
               | jacooper wrote:
               | That's a service, not a social network which aims to beat
               | the network effect.
               | 
               | Also gmail can talk with other email users.
        
               | random42_ wrote:
               | The argument I was replying to was about people disliking
               | invitation codes. If that's practical or not for a social
               | network is beyond this comment.
        
               | brundolf wrote:
               | My experience begs to differ
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | lapcat wrote:
         | > If there is so much demand, why does nobody release a free
         | and open client? This might be a sign that it is hard to write
         | one.
         | 
         | It's invitation-only, with a total of ~50K users, many of whom
         | are non-technical celebrities. That's why.
        
           | brundolf wrote:
           | Here's a living list of clients and other projects:
           | 
           | https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto-ecosystem
        
       | ZacnyLos wrote:
       | Mastodon is terrible because it's hard to join--unlike Bluesky, a
       | social network that is hard to join, which is great.
       | 
       | Journalists are flocking to Bluesky, and not Mastodon because
       | Bluesky allows retweets--which Mastodon doesn't allow. Oh, and
       | about hashtags, direct messages, and post edits not being
       | available on Bluesky? Journalists don't need them.
        
       | Pxtl wrote:
       | Title currently showing in the article is "Bluesky showed
       | everyone's ass / In many cases, literally."
        
         | bluepod4 wrote:
         | So funny.
         | 
         | It's also hilarious that the users are using the term "skeet".
         | (Interestingly and semi-related, a TechCrunch article said that
         | Bluesky needs sex workers and Black Twitter in order to
         | thrive.)
        
       | Hizonner wrote:
       | The answer to existing centralized for-profit systems blowing up,
       | or to existing federated systems having various problems (some of
       | them caused by an inadequate federation architecture), is not
       | another centralized for-profit system with vague promises of
       | future federation.
        
         | BaseballPhysics wrote:
         | Amen.
         | 
         | Meanwhile, folks are crowing about how great the vibe is on the
         | platform, and how welcoming it is to victimized communities.
         | 
         | It's, what, 60,000 people?
         | 
         | All invite-only?
         | 
         | With a campaign specifically targeting Twitter power-users?
         | 
         | And very actively curated to push out troublemakers?
         | 
         | Yeah, of course the vibe is good. Now. Let's see what it's like
         | when there's a few million folks on the platform with a small
         | but vocal percentage actively engaging in harassment.
         | 
         | Edit to add:
         | 
         | Now, if they do live up to the hype--if they succeed in
         | building an _open_ , federated, protocol-first social platform
         | that somehow also manages to bolt on opt-in algorithmic
         | curation, moderation, and so forth--then that's great!
         | 
         | But they're a private company, operating a very small platform
         | right now, so it's simply too early to tell if they'll manage
         | to live up to their promises.
        
           | Pxtl wrote:
           | Yes. Moderation is a hard problem. "Black Twitter" power-
           | users complained about the racism on the incredibly anodyne
           | Mastodon because Mastodon being volunteer and not-for-profit
           | run, did not hire an army of 3rd-world moderators to handle
           | the problem and still needs volunteer admins to take care of
           | bigots, spammers, and other problem-users.
           | 
           | It basically has broken down that the nerds and idealists
           | have moved to Mastodon, the twitter elite have gone to
           | BlueSky, the Bitcoin bros have gone to Nostr, and the people
           | who have to use Twitter professionally have stayed with the
           | bigots and conspiracy-theorists that are taking over Twitter.
        
             | dahwolf wrote:
             | The "Black Twitter" on Mastodon story needs a nuance. It's
             | not them receiving racist remarks on Mastodon (although
             | surely that might happen too), it's mostly about tone
             | policing.
             | 
             | Mastodon's culture is safetysm, toxic positivity, put a
             | content warning on everything. Some experience that as
             | discouraging or even erasure.
        
             | BaseballPhysics wrote:
             | And honestly, if that's the way it shakes out, I'd be fine
             | with that. Tech is obsessed with winner-takes-all solutions
             | thanks to a couple decades of "blitzscaling" bullshit. But
             | there's no reason people can't fan out and find communities
             | on a range of platforms.
             | 
             | Even better, if Bluesky and Nostr live up to their promise
             | of open protocols, then maybe we can look forward to some
             | level of interoperability so people don't have to choose
             | one place, but rather than easily connect with communities
             | on many different platforms.
             | 
             | But, speaking for myself, I'm not putting my social eggs in
             | a private corporation's basket until they've proven they'll
             | truly be as open as they say. I've done that and I'm done
             | with that.
        
             | BeFlatXIII wrote:
             | > nerds and idealists have moved to Mastodon, the twitter
             | elite have gone to BlueSky, the Bitcoin bros have gone to
             | Nostr, and the people who have to use Twitter
             | professionally have stayed with the bigots and conspiracy-
             | theorists that are taking over Twitter
             | 
             | ...and everyone considers themselves better off without all
             | those other groups shitting up the place.
             | 
             | I agree with the other commenter saying that having
             | everyone in the same room is overhyped.
        
               | JieJie wrote:
               | Literally the only thing I care about isn't being
               | addressed and that is news networks posting about social
               | media drama, and that isn't a platform problem, but a
               | news network problem.
               | 
               | People deserve to have a fun place to play on the
               | internet, but the less the rest of us know about what
               | goes on there, the better.
        
       | INTPenis wrote:
       | Most end users want a simple centralized solution, this is just
       | yet another proof of that.
       | 
       | The fedi will remain a sub-cultural thing. I said that way back
       | in the start of 2022 waves.
        
         | brundolf wrote:
         | You can have a nice centralized layer over a robust
         | decentralized back-end, which people only have to use if things
         | go south. And then that will keep the big players more honest,
         | because users can just leave when they don't like what the
         | client is doing (instead of being held hostage, like they are
         | on twitter right now)
        
       | pelagic_sky wrote:
       | I wonder if Bluesky is going to Google+ itself by staying in Beta
       | too long.
        
         | WFHRenaissance wrote:
         | They're going to Clubhouse themselves by being stingy with
         | invite codes.
        
         | capableweb wrote:
         | Wasn't the thing that killed Google+ that it just didn't have
         | enough engagement for it to be worth for Google to run it? I
         | seem to remember that at the time, Google was saying that 99%
         | of the user sessions were less than a minute, or something like
         | that, and that's the reason they are shutting it down. If I
         | remember that correctly, it seems it wouldn't have mattered if
         | they had a Beta label on it or not.
        
           | morkalork wrote:
           | That and the ill-will generated by forcibly cramming it down
           | everyone's throats a la the youtube debacle.
        
             | MengerSponge wrote:
             | Guess my age: I'm mad at Google for 1) Reader 2) Breaking +
             | as a search operator
        
       | 0zemp2c wrote:
       | [flagged]
        
         | BaseballPhysics wrote:
         | You're literally participating in an online community right
         | now.
         | 
         | Why did you create an account 8 days ago, and proceed to
         | participate in conversation here, if places like this are just
         | a "fake shitnozzle"?
        
           | mattgreenrocks wrote:
           | The issue is not online communities per se, it is creating
           | yet another social media site that tries to house everyone.
           | HN is a focused audience with active moderation, that's why
           | it works.
           | 
           | Social media? Completely different story. Scale is off the
           | charts so it is difficult to moderate. Lots of noise, people
           | trying to be brands and brands trying to be people. Idiotic
           | clamoring for blue checkmarks as if they actually mean
           | something. Collective belief in the metrics of the platform
           | meaning something overall. Little pushback against unpleasant
           | individuals, and few people questioning the pace or mechanics
           | of platforms that actually create toxic environments.
           | 
           | But yeah, other than that, social media is great. :)
        
             | BaseballPhysics wrote:
             | You're drawing some arbitrary line where a "focused
             | audience" isn't "social media" whereas a "media site that
             | tries to house everyone" is.
             | 
             | All of these are social media. Tik Tok, Reddit, Hacker
             | News, Facebook, Twitter, Bluesky, Mastodon, Github (yes,
             | Github), Discord, and on and on... they're all social
             | media, in that they provide places for individuals to
             | connect and communicate.
             | 
             | Which is what the OP seemed to be objecting to.
             | 
             | Personally, I 100% agree with you: I _don 't_ believe
             | winner-takes-all social media platforms must necessarily be
             | the future, and in fact I think it'd be better if there was
             | far greater diversity, which is why I strongly believe in a
             | protocols-over-platforms future.
        
       | monkaiju wrote:
       | What is the monetisation strategy for Bluesky?
        
       | yuliyp wrote:
       | Basically Bluesky is getting to learn all of the lessons about
       | why running a social network is hard, at an extremely high speed,
       | with lots of public scrutiny. Fun.
        
         | taco_emoji wrote:
         | I mean, it blew up in popularity literally overnight. I'm
         | willing to bet a lot of these features are on their backlog,
         | they just haven't had time to do them all yet.
        
           | BaseballPhysics wrote:
           | People elsewhere have said it before, and I'm going to echo
           | their words: It is simply irresponsible to launch a new
           | social media platform without a solution for trust and safety
           | already in place.
           | 
           | That they did so puts their judgement in serious question.
        
             | lordofgibbons wrote:
             | Getting users to use a new social media platform is an
             | extremely difficult ask. What's the point of investing
             | weeks/months building content moderation for "trust and
             | safety" if nobody ends up using the platform?
        
             | capableweb wrote:
             | Does being a private, invite-only deployment count as
             | launching nowadays? We used to reserve that word for when
             | services publicly launch and are ready for the general
             | public.
        
               | ohgodplsno wrote:
               | When you're spamming about yourself throughout the
               | internet, paying for publicity about how you super secret
               | private exclusive club is so much better than Twitter,
               | yes, it's a launch. In the same way that Clubhouse
               | launched, despite being invite only.
        
               | tedunangst wrote:
               | I don't think bluesky has control over other people
               | hyping them. If they were buying Super Bowl ads, that
               | would be one thing. Exuberant press from extremely online
               | take makers is another.
        
         | kayodelycaon wrote:
         | It is very human to continuously fail to listen to the lessons
         | of history, only to rediscover them.
        
           | pc86 wrote:
           | Not a comment specific to Bluesky at all, but I think it's
           | human to believe that we are different than the
           | thousands/millions/ _billions_ of people to try $THING before
           | us. That somehow our intuition is better (it might be, but
           | rarely), or that it will be faster /easier to just experiment
           | our way to our end goal rather than step back and learn first
           | (it might be, but rarely).
        
             | JohnFen wrote:
             | Yes, and particularly for devs. We tend to start to believe
             | our own hype and think we're uniquely smart.
        
               | elliekelly wrote:
               | Sometimes I'll revisit code I've written and think "wow,
               | so dumb, I could've just done xyz" only to implement my
               | obviously far-superior method and recall that I've
               | already learned this lesson and there was a good reason I
               | hadn't done xyz the first time.
        
               | JohnFen wrote:
               | Yes!
               | 
               | I am humbled every time I look at my old code. I'm always
               | disappointed by it. This is because I've grown since I
               | wrote it, so that's a good thing. I don't want my best
               | work to be behind me.
               | 
               | At the same time, I also have to recognize that the
               | brilliant code I'm writing _right now_ will look
               | disappointing in five years.
        
               | kayodelycaon wrote:
               | I try to leave comments for myself and others when I've
               | had to write code that looks less than ideal. It's nice
               | to know something was hacked in for convenience or
               | because it was the best solution at the time. :)
        
               | JohnFen wrote:
               | Yes, when you're knowingly writing less than ideal code.
               | 
               | But we're talking about writing code that you thought was
               | great when you wrote it, but when you come back to it a
               | few years later, you can see how far from great it really
               | was.
               | 
               | Which, for me, accounts for about 80% of everything I've
               | written.
        
         | skybrian wrote:
         | If they really can learn at high speed then that would be a
         | significant competitive advantage, more important than getting
         | things right up front.
        
         | dragonwriter wrote:
         | Yeah, which given that Bluesky is a Twitter spin-off with Jack
         | Dorsey as an identified cofounder, board member, and so much
         | the public face that the actual CEO has to remind people that
         | she, not Dorsey, is the CEO, is a bit surprising. You'd think
         | that they'd know all this from day one...
        
       | DueDilligence wrote:
       | [dead]
        
       | carlivar wrote:
       | I'm not a fan of Elon Musk, but why would we celebrate Jack
       | Dorsey rebuilding the same flawed system that went too far
       | towards censorship in the name of "misinformation"?
       | 
       | https://reason.com/2023/03/17/researchers-pressured-twitter-...
        
         | Pxtl wrote:
         | Because Jack Dorsey may have _funded_ BlueSky, but he 's not
         | involved in running it, he's instead focused on Nostr, the web3
         | answer to the problem. And as for "misinformation" vs
         | "censorship", I think Fox News just demonstrated over $700
         | million reasons to care about misinformation.
        
           | dragonwriter wrote:
           | > Because Jack Dorsey may have funded BlueSky, but he's not
           | involved in running it
           | 
           | Aside from being on Bluesky's board of directors.
        
         | capableweb wrote:
         | Not to say if it's the best or worst, but considering his
         | experience of running a platform he himself say failed at what
         | he wanted it to do, wouldn't he be a good person to have on
         | your side in order to stay clear of making the same mistakes?
         | 
         | He openly say he fucked up with Twitter, and his involvement as
         | funder of both Bluesky and Nostr is him trying to correct his
         | mistakes with new platforms that cannot be abused in the same
         | manner.
        
       | dtrailin wrote:
       | Having a waitlist was a smart approach for Bluesky. Gives them an
       | opportunity to scale and polish the user experience while
       | building hype for people without an invite.
        
         | dehrmann wrote:
         | We'll see. It depends how long the window for launching a
         | twitter replacement is.
        
       | anigbrowl wrote:
       | This article started out interesting but rapidly degenerated into
       | society gossip. I would feel embarrassed to have written this.
        
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       (page generated 2023-05-05 23:01 UTC)