[HN Gopher] Why champagne has stable "bubble chains" and other c...
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Why champagne has stable "bubble chains" and other carbonated
drinks do not
Author : pseudolus
Score : 131 points
Date : 2023-05-02 11:33 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (arstechnica.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (arstechnica.com)
| greenhearth wrote:
| Such an amazing article! Thanks Hacker News!
| greenhearth wrote:
| Why was this down voted? Get a life lol
| George83728 wrote:
| At the risk of being tedious, I feel compelled to point out that
| other sparkling wines do this too. It isn't just champagne.
| [deleted]
| acapybara wrote:
| I don't think tedious is the word. More like pedantic given the
| context and headline.
| slothtrop wrote:
| I don't think it's tedious, headline went for an overstatement
| toss1 wrote:
| >>Zenit stumbled across yet another potential application when he
| struck up a conversation with another customer while waiting in
| line for coffee. The customer worked for a company that built
| curtains of bubbles around wind turbines in the ocean to dampen
| the noise and protect marine life. "If you wanted to have a more
| closely controlled bubble curtain to protect marine life from
| wind turbine noise, you could add a biosurfactant," said Zenit.
|
| Very cool - I've often found that the most interesting things
| occur not within disciplines, but at the interfaces of two areas
| of study/work...
| nathancahill wrote:
| Sounds really cool, but I can't find any videos of these bubble
| curtains.
| brabarossa wrote:
| Something like this probably https://sc04.alicdn.com/kf/H6397
| 2abed7d541768499964da4142782...
| caseyohara wrote:
| Probably more like a bubble barrier
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r2jwPcpUvw
| stephen_g wrote:
| Interestingly, I have seen this in carbonated water. I had a
| stable bubble chain coming off just a single point of a freshly
| made SodaStream bottle. It was so unusual I videoed it on my
| phone. Not sure what caused the nucleation point or why there was
| a stable bubble chain coming off it, but there it was.
| cronix wrote:
| Likely there was a small piece of debris stuck in that spot,
| which can sometimes happen in a dishwasher. You can buy
| nucleated glasses that do the same thing permanently with an
| etching in the bottom of the glass or little micro bumps.
| bostonwalker wrote:
| A word of caution: Sodastream bottles aren't dishwasher-safe
| and can warp in the dishwasher.
| simplyaccont wrote:
| new bottles are dishwasher safe
| justinjlynn wrote:
| This is not something you want happening to any pressure
| vessel. If it does, discard it.
| acapybara wrote:
| Jesus. A distorted pressure vessel is outright deadly.
| svnt wrote:
| I feel bad that there is always the request for potential
| applications for studies like this, and the scientists feel
| required to come up with something. Can we just find out the
| answer in order to find out the answer?
|
| In no world are biosurfactants added to seawater around wind
| turbines in order to increase the performance of an acoustically
| insulating bubble sheet for marine life. Can't we just have the
| conversation piece and let the scientist continue on? Amortized
| over the millions of people that drink champagne it's really a
| pretty affordable interesting piece of information.
| bena wrote:
| I think it's at least partly compelled internally. You see this
| phenomenon, you wonder why it happens, then you start wondering
| what you could do if you could cause it intentionally.
|
| Part of the excitement of discovering new knowledge is
| discovering new ways to employ it.
| UI_at_80x24 wrote:
| This!
|
| Pure research for curiosities sake is the key factor in every
| notable advance that humans have done.
|
| Science based on quarterly profits holds us back.
| fsckboy wrote:
| just nonsense
|
| semiconductor research has propelled us forward, and it was
| for the most part not done for curiosity's sake. (Not that
| "curiosity" is anything other than evolved hunter-gatherer
| profit maximization, most of which was carried out on time
| periods shorter than a quarter.)
| kergonath wrote:
| Sigh. One example of A is not a proof that not-A does not
| exist.
|
| Besides, even in semi-conductors there is plenty of
| research justified only by curiosity. Some of those turn
| out to be important after the fact; that's the nature of
| research.
| riffraff wrote:
| the claim was "every notable advance", so giving a single
| example is proof that "every" is not true.
| josefx wrote:
| > semiconductor research has propelled us forward, and it
| was for the most part not done for curiosity's sake.
|
| And yet if learned book binders and doctors had not decided
| that they where much more interested in studying chemistry
| and physics the industry would be stuck trying to create
| new mechanical calculators using ever smaller gears
| instead.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| Finding applications is also a form of curiosity.
|
| And we can argue that money is also the key factor in almost
| every notable advance. In order to do research, you need
| equipment, access to knowledge, and time.
|
| The first is the most obvious, equipment is not free. Access
| to knowledge is much easier than it once was, but still, the
| best way to access knowledge is to be with knowledgeable
| people, like in a university, and universities are not cheap,
| and even if they are, the location where they are usually
| isn't.
|
| The last, time, is the hardest to get by. If you are working
| your ass off just to survive, then no time for you. You need
| a job that is low effort so that you don't get exhausted,
| that pays reasonably well so you can live comfortably, and
| leaves you enough time for your research. Few can enjoy that.
| You can also make research your job, but if that's your job,
| then you need to think of quarterly profits. Another option
| is to get supported by someone else, but it doesn't change
| the fact that someone is making money to support your
| research.
| dunham wrote:
| > Pure research for curiosities sake is the key factor in
| every notable advance that humans have done.
|
| Yeah, Feynman got a Nobel Prize doing just that:
| https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/kilcup.1/262/feynman.html
| antonvs wrote:
| On the other hand appending some piece of bullshit to your work
| so you can continue to get funded to do interesting research
| doesn't seem like the end of the world. There's a lot worse
| that research scientists have to put up with.
| batmaniam wrote:
| Wonder if this study was also funded by the champagne
| industry. Wouldn't be surprised it was.
| kergonath wrote:
| Half the authors are basically civil servants, their salary
| is paid by the French state. The other half are Americans.
| Whilst I am not sure what their motivation was, it seems
| unlikely that big champagne would funnel money to Brown
| University, of all places (they do it more publicly
| elsewhere). The main resource used in this study is CPU
| time, they give a grant number and the institution. So
| again, no private funding.
|
| A lot of people are keen to work on something like that on
| their own. I know someone who worked on the thermodynamics
| of chocolate mixtures for no precise reason whatsoever, and
| without external funding. These things are typically short
| one-offs.
|
| There are labs that have larger programs on carbonated
| liquids, including a well-known (in the field) lab in
| Reims. Those get some funding from industry in the usual
| form of money for post-docs or PhDs, funding for
| experiments, and the occasional in-kind contribution of
| samples. Nothing out of the ordinary.
| OJFord wrote:
| It's not as bad as IC (integrated circuit) datasheets even
| really is it? i.e. where some bog standard voltage regulator
| or whatever will have a list of bizarrely specific niche
| 'applications' it's suitable for. (Not that it isn't, just,
| yes? Of course? Why would IoT-connected humanoid robot vacuum
| cleaners categorically require a specialist voltage
| regulator?)
| sdwr wrote:
| That is how you get all the smart, lazy, and/or integrity-
| laden people to leave.
| speedgoose wrote:
| Where do they go? It's not like the grass is greener in the
| industry, quite the opposite. I'm asking for a friend.
| ravi-delia wrote:
| Honestly, anyone who can't do the three sentence real world
| applications routine is either ambivalent enough about a
| life doing research that it wouldn't make sense to
| reorganize around retaining them or is so bad at politics
| (not even complicated politics! more than one friend at
| once politics!) that realistically the many many other
| social demands will have driven them away regardless. Smart
| has nothing to do with it.
| [deleted]
| hospitalJail wrote:
| How are you going to get funding for your pet project then?
|
| My buddy's post doc is paid for by the military, but will have
| further applications in medical because both deal with fluids.
|
| Medical doesn't pay unless you are the Physician applying the
| work, so he needed to get someone who will.
|
| Also, he has yet to prove what he is looking for, he is aware
| he might work on this for 30 years and come up with nothing.
| OJFord wrote:
| Well funding individual 'projects' as an academic is fairly
| modern, at least as such a standard practice.
|
| It is conceivable simply to have salaried researchers
| researching whatever takes their interest (or came up at last
| night's champagne reception). Of course practical experiments
| and equipment complicates it a bit, but not necessarily
| _much_.
| piyh wrote:
| Uniform bubble sheets sounds like it could be of interest to
| submarines. Go get that DoD money researchers!
| George83728 wrote:
| Submarines use bubble generators for decoys, to reflect sonar
| and thereby create false returns. But to make the submarine
| itself quieter, I think it would have the opposite effect.
|
| I doubt noise from wind turbines disrupting sea life is a
| real problem in the first place, but if it really is, they
| could try applying some ideas from submarines such as
| covering the base of turbine tower with rubber tiles. Rubber
| absorbs vibrations and converts that energy into heat.
| niemandhier wrote:
| Fish farms create those surfactants anyways, might as well put
| them near wind farms to harness the insulation effect. At the
| moment those farms are to close to the shore, since building
| them further out increases the price.
| doitLP wrote:
| Nice that there are still everyday phenomena that we're still
| discovering the reasons for. Our universe is an infinite
| wonderland of emergent behaviors
| Cenk wrote:
| Link to paper on ArXiv: https://arxiv.org/abs/2211.02253
| [deleted]
| TheRealPomax wrote:
| Let me introduce you to tonic. Because this title suggests it has
| never heard of it, let alone seen it.
| hammock wrote:
| >surfactant molecules (mainly fatty acids) give champagne its
| flavor
|
| Obviously that explanation is a gross oversimplification of what
| champagne flavor is, but could result in a novel way to
| evaluate/taste a glass of champagne by looking for the quality of
| bubble chains in it
| cronix wrote:
| Maybe, but you'd first have to know if the glass is nucleated
| to know if it was the glass producing the chain or the drink.
|
| The nucleated classes have tiny ridges on the bottom of the
| glass which causes the CO2 to come out of suspension and leave
| a chain of bubbles coming from the same spot. I have some
| nucleated cider glasses. It's pretty cool to watch.
|
| > Put simply, nucleated glasses contain markings on the base
| (that are very often branded) to aid in nucleation. These
| markings are actually tiny pits known as points of nucleation.
| Due to their shape, these points cause gas within drinks to be
| released with greater ease. As a result, carbonated drinks
| produce more bubbles and the taste and aroma of drinks are
| amplified. All manner of drinks can benefit from a nucleated
| glass.
|
| https://allinonemerchandise.co.uk/what-is-a-nucleated-glass/
|
| Video of side by side comparison using beer:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGgbEMDnzKc
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Non nucleated glasses can still create stable bubbles due to
| things like dust stuck to the glass.
| kergonath wrote:
| > Obviously that explanation is a gross oversimplification of
| what champagne flavor is, but could result in a novel way to
| evaluate/taste a glass of champagne by looking for the quality
| of bubble chains in it
|
| It is not novel, it's part of how champagne is tasted. It
| includes the size of the bubbles, their quantity, how close
| they are to each other in a chain. Fancy glasses are etched so
| the chains form some patterns for visual interest.
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(page generated 2023-05-03 23:01 UTC)