[HN Gopher] Exercise increases number of immune cells in cancer ...
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Exercise increases number of immune cells in cancer patients
Author : _xerces_
Score : 187 points
Date : 2023-05-02 18:49 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.utu.fi)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.utu.fi)
| Findecanor wrote:
| Interesting. I'm about to start chemotherapy in a month or so,
| and I've been told that I'm supposed to get it injected _while_
| pedalling on an exercise bike. Could it be for the same reason as
| mentioned in the article: better distribution of the cancer-
| fighting _thing_ to where the cancer is?
| martyvis wrote:
| My cancer centre only delivers chemo while ina comfy recliner.
| They encourage gentle exercise each day. For me this is walking
| with my dog and wife, and maybe a little safe DIY. I have low
| platelets and WCC at the moment so can't afford to do anything
| to rigourous.
| nradov wrote:
| Lance Armstrong still did hard training rides between
| chemotherapy sessions. While his reputation is tarnished by
| doping and legal disputes, if you look at his case purely
| from a medical standpoint it indicates that more rigorous
| exercise could benefit some cancer patients depending on
| their overall state. (I am just making a general comment, not
| about your particular case.)
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/1999/jul/18/focus.ne.
| ..
| ramoz wrote:
| To be fair Lance largely benefited from cisplatin chemistry
| in his chemo mix --- which is highly effective in treating
| germ cell tumors. This effectiveness is limited to only
| certain cancers such as TC.
| stainablesteel wrote:
| im not surprised
|
| i've always opposed the "you're sick therefore you should rest"
| advice, your lymph nodes are mechanical pumps, maybe you
| shouldn't go run 10 miles or do heavy lifting but definitely walk
| around or ride a bike if you feel up to it
| birdyrooster wrote:
| always opposing this advice is draconian and incorrect because
| resting is the correct advice for many ailments
| nradov wrote:
| There are very few ailments for which complete bed rest is a
| good idea. Unless the patient is in an ICU or something it is
| almost always beneficial to get up and move around as much as
| possible. This prevents muscle atrophy and helps keep
| circulatory, lymphatic, and digestive systems working
| normally.
|
| If you disagree then please provide medical journal
| citations.
| martyvis wrote:
| Correct. rest is as important for recovery as exercise.
| gentle exercise, ie walking, to your energy capacity is good.
| Your brain also uses energy. I registered some domain names
| and obtained a business number during the wee hours yesterday
| ( not everyone is excited by this, but I can't really control
| my enthusiastic brain). I definitely need more rest than
| exercise at this point. I'm using my smartwatch to track my
| "body battery" which is helpful.
| lockhouse wrote:
| Diet, exercise, enough sleep, and a good social support structure
| are pretty much the keys to good health in general.
|
| The fact that we have so many health issues in western society
| are because its so easy to neglect these things.
| 10xDev wrote:
| You forgot to add good genetics.
| ericmay wrote:
| Those help but are completely out of your control.
| eikenberry wrote:
| Hopefully not for long.
| lockhouse wrote:
| Yeah, I can't wait to live in a real life version of
| Rapture from the BioShock series. ;-)
|
| I'm looking forward to Incinerate and Telekinesis myself.
| pengaru wrote:
| > You forgot to add good genetics.
|
| Too many people lean on "bad genetics" as a scapegoat for
| their laziness/poor choices/lack of self-discipline...
| mtalantikite wrote:
| "good genetics" (if we can even say that) might help give an
| edge for elite athletes, but really, for most able bodied
| people, it's not a factor you should be thinking about when
| it comes to exercise. Just get out there and use your body,
| it's amazing.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| And you don't need a gym membership or expensive equipment or
| any training for exercise. Even a tiny amount can make a huge
| difference.
|
| If you're currently doing no exercise, try to walk five minutes
| at lunch time each day. Just five minutes. And when that's
| trivial to do, make it 10 minutes. Try to keep increasing this
| over the year. No rush. Take your time. But try to make it a
| habit. Even if some days it's back down to just 5 minutes.
|
| If you're walking even just 15 minutes a day when you weren't
| before, you will be so much better off in ways that will be
| apparent. You might find that you feel happier, more alert, in
| a better mood overall. You might sleep a bit better. etc.
|
| I'm not saying that a 15 min walk is a panacea that will cure
| all ills, but it's a multivitamin that works.
| buu700 wrote:
| Also, carry a backpack: https://www.goruck.com/pages/what-is-
| rucking
|
| I generally carry a small EDC backpack anyway for convenience
| and hydration, but having that 10 - 15 lbs on my back also
| adds a little bit of extra workout to my walks. Sometimes
| I'll put my backpack inside a bigger backpack with a few
| gallons of water or a couple 25lb plates added, which starts
| to feel like moderate intensity squatting or deadlifting
| (especially when it involves hills or stairs).
| Waterluvian wrote:
| A backpack, and countless other upgrades, are great ideas.
| But I want to communicate that none of this stuff is
| necessary.
|
| We _love_ to make the simplest thing overly ridiculously
| complicated to the point that people don 't even try.
|
| Just start with a walk.
| Xeoncross wrote:
| A lot of people don't realize that muscle use helps pump
| blood. Movement is important for helping circulation.
| Silverback_VII wrote:
| Yeah but a 15min walk will get you nowhere.
| martyvis wrote:
| It will get you more than 15 minutes on the couch
| watching TV. How disingenuous can you be.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| For someone who used to drive everywhere, it may be a
| "gateway drug" to more walking.
| cowmoo728 wrote:
| Or, if you're working in a multi story office or apartment,
| take the stairs instead of the elevator. It seems silly but
| it actually makes a big difference to go from mostly
| sedentary to walking up stairs.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| Its even simpler.
|
| Exercise (specifically, aerobic type) is the main thing you
| need. A good exercise regime gives you a lot of leeway in the
| diet aspect especially if you don't overeat (since your caloric
| burn will be high enough on the regular to not have to deal
| with issues like too much carbs). It also helps you sleep as
| you get tired and can fall asleep easier, and reduces stress
| levels, which is very important in regards to longevity.
|
| There also have been studies that link brain function
| deterioration with lack of oxygen, and people with higher
| VO2max values are at a lower risk of cognitive decline.
|
| Something as simple as cycling to the office instead of taking
| the car can have extremely positive effects.
| Swizec wrote:
| Don't forget all the evidence suggesting adult neurogenesis
| specifically from running.
|
| As for VO2max, Levitt had a longevity researcher on his
| podcast who found that a high VO2max (used as a proxy
| measure) is causally related with higher impacts on 5 year
| all cause mortality than smoking. In the good direction. As
| in: being in shape reduces your risk of death more than
| smoking increases it.
|
| Sauce: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/adding-ten-healthy-
| years-to...
| swalling wrote:
| It's not just a longterm effect of VO2max improvements,
| which is a physiological metric that is quite slow to
| improve and realistically has upper limits based on your
| age and sex. It's also that aerobic exercise acutely
| improves brain function. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/a
| rticles/PMC9256523/#:~:tex...
| o_____________o wrote:
| Figured that would be Peter Attia.
|
| https://peterattiamd.com/podcast/
|
| His podcast is amazing but can be dense and technical at
| times. He's evidence based and would probably fit in with
| the HN crowd.
| pastor_bob wrote:
| Peter Attia got me into having a weekly MRI and wearing a
| dexcom 24/7. Costly, but great stuff.
| o_____________o wrote:
| Weekly, seriously? What's the background with that?
| matwood wrote:
| I enjoy listening to Attia talk about his longevity
| research. He's why I finally started doing IF, and
| someone I looked to when I moved from power lifting
| (can't do it forever lol) to a more longevity based
| exercise program.
|
| Then I randomly got really into jiu-jitsu because why
| not.
| david2ndaccount wrote:
| Cycling has its own risks as it can reduce bone density if
| you cycle instead of walking or other forms of exercise.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| Make every other ride a mountain bike ride and you will
| have no issues with bone density.
| decodebytes wrote:
| How much Cycling do you have to do for that to become a
| credible risk though? I am imaging quite a bit more than a
| daily commute.
| nradov wrote:
| Cycling doesn't directly cause loss of bone mineral
| density. Ride as much as you like.
|
| The issue is that some people use cycling as their only
| form of exercise. For bone health you need to mix in
| other high impact exercises such as running and
| weightlifting.
| orev wrote:
| You can't outrun a bad diet. It takes a lot of exercise to
| burn off excess calories, and virtually no effort to simply
| not consume them. I understand that health is more than just
| calories, and you can come to the same conclusion about other
| bad things like trans fats, alcohol, etc.
|
| If someone had to choose only one thing to do for health, a
| healthy diet is far more important than exercise.
| lukemercado wrote:
| > It takes a lot of exercise to burn off excess calories,
| and virtually no effort to simply not consume them.
|
| > and virtually no effort to simply not consume them.
|
| I don't think this is true. The executive function required
| to manage the dopamine cycle that food generates is
| incredibly taxing. I honestly think this is a result of our
| food systems being incredibly optimized to drive purchasing
| decisions...
|
| Separately, this reminds me that I should eat some veggies.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| Bad diet, as in Mcdonalds every day and lots of sugar, is
| going to be bad for you even with exercise, but thats
| because you probably aren't getting the nutrients that you
| need.
|
| The big issue with diets is that people eat too much carbs,
| and if you aren't burning those carbs for energy, this is
| where problems happen. Healthy regiment of exercise will
| help greatly with this, giving you the option to eat tasty
| foods with carbs and maintain a good weight without any
| problems.
| cowmoo728 wrote:
| Exercise moderates negative feelings and hormones and often
| causes people to maintain a better sleep and diet routine.
| Everything in life becomes easier with a light/moderate
| regular exercise routine. It's inseparable from diet.
| Fricken wrote:
| You can't outrun a bad diet, but a bad diet _can_ give you
| the runs.
| matwood wrote:
| I agree, but we need to stop with the one thing. A decent
| diet is important, and so is cardio. And, so is strength. A
| person will lose a % of muscle/strength each year after age
| 50 or so. The higher base you start with the more strength
| a person will have as they get older, which helps prevent
| falls and other old age issues.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| While you can't easily burn off excess calories, a good
| amount of muscle mass can significantly increase your
| metabolic rate as well, so there are effects from repeated
| exercise beyond just calorie consumption.
| kriops wrote:
| Citation needed because "significantly". Studies I have
| seen in this (not my field) indicate that the effect is
| measurable, but basically negligible.
|
| The ancestor comment saying to do cardio is right.
| Strength training is also important for health, but for
| different reasons (motor function, bone density, etc.).
| The act of strength training also burns some calories,
| regardless of resultant muscle mass.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| Yes, I do have a citation : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/
| pmc/articles/PMC2931407/#!po=8....
|
| Every extra kg of muscle is estimated to contribute
| 21kcal/day to the RMR. If you put on, say, 15kg of muscle
| over a few years (quite doable if you are very sedentary
| and have low muscle mass), that's an extra 300kcal/day.
| Add in 30 mins of biking a day, and say 100 cal from
| strength training on average, that's a good 600-700
| calories per day!
| bitL wrote:
| Switching to carnivore diet gives you 2lb/1kg weight loss a
| week without any exercise and any feeling of hunger or
| weakness (assuming you are overweight).
| QuercusMax wrote:
| This is only true to a point. When I was cycling 20 miles
| 5x per week, I literally couldn't eat enough to avoid
| losing weight. (This was not a problem, I've never been
| thin.)
| swalling wrote:
| This is very common among endurance athletes. It's
| extremely difficult to consistently recover from a
| >1,000-2,000 calorie deficit every time you do a weekly
| long run or ride. Glycogen reabsorption is optimally
| effective for only a relatively brief time period post-
| exercise and there are upper limits on your rate of
| glycogen resynthesis.
| Fricken wrote:
| Yes, when I switch into training mode, the fat melts off
| in short order (I've never accumulated more than 20
| pounds of unwanted mass, and when I did it was following
| a broken leg and 2 years spent largely sedentary)
|
| In the past I've toned my training down due to
| exhaustion, not from the physical output but from having
| to constantly be shoving calories down my throat.
| mft_ wrote:
| I'm not disagreeing that aerobic exercise is important and
| beneficial, but to add: there is also data correlating other
| exercise behaviours (stretching, strength training) with
| positive health and longevity outcomes. Also, quite
| significant benefits can be achieved via HIIT, which is
| anything but aerobic.
| [deleted]
| graypegg wrote:
| I can totally vouch for this in my valueless opinion study of
| n=1.
|
| I've always eaten "a little bad" diet. I don't think I eat
| too much, and I keep things mostly balanced, but I tend to
| eat quite late, and carbs and calories was always something
| I'd just take down without considering totals for a day or
| week.
|
| Was totally fine when I was walking to work every day, and
| doing a lot outside.
|
| Early COVID era, with the same diet, I started ticking up in
| weight, and wasn't feeling great. Once adding more exercise
| to my routine I slowly returned to my baseline. Maybe I could
| be doing better with a better diet, but I was kind of shocked
| by how much of an effect ~1hr of walking a day had on me.
| pengaru wrote:
| "Social support structure" is often at odds with diet,
| exercise, and enough sleep.
| sysadmindotfail wrote:
| Life is a series of endless choices.
|
| I recently ran a 24hr relay. There were absolutely those who
| drank/partied while they participated. They posted slower
| times and probably slept less. I didn't sleep as much as
| usual (because I was waking up to run every 6hrs), but I
| slept more, didn't party, ran faster than them.
|
| Neither of us was right/wrong in our choices. I would have
| felt like crap if I had their habits, but maybe it doesn't
| affect them.
| elijaht wrote:
| Not sure about that. A few social activities are negative
| (nightlife, eating out maybe), but most seem to be neutral to
| me (hanging out, gaming, religion), and it's pretty easy to
| find positive activities (walking/hiking, sports, climbing).
| lockhouse wrote:
| It is absolutely critical to good mental health and having
| healthy coping mechanisms for stress.
|
| Social support structure doesn't necessarily mean staying out
| all night drinking and partying with your friends like a
| college student. It can also mean spending quality time with
| your family, neighbors, and acquaintances that you share
| hobbies and activities with.
| [deleted]
| markus_zhang wrote:
| These are luxuries, not mandatories. That's why many people
| don't get them. They can't. I absolutely can't.
| jimbob45 wrote:
| Couldn't agree more. Seems like a lot of people on here think
| that low-income earners eat off of the McD's dollar menu by
| choice.
| t-writescode wrote:
| I absolutely don't think that.
|
| I think that company owners, share holders, "The Economy"
| have decided that low earners don't deserve healthy lives;
| and that many of those low earners have been tricked into
| agreeing that it's best to live "under foot" and that those
| things are luxuries.
|
| It would be like cheering a factory on for all the missing
| arms its employees have, and _then_ having all the factory
| employees mock the newcommers with two arms trying to
| protest losing an arm only to have the tenured ones laugh
| at them and think that 's privilege.
|
| We've brainwashed generations of self and systemic harm
| Vt71fcAqt7 wrote:
| Beans, rice, eggs and oats are cheaper, healthier and
| quicker than Mcdonalds. (Rice is not quicker). If McDonals
| were the only choice they wouldn't be spending millions on
| advertising.
| t-writescode wrote:
| They're also more emotionally taxing to create, and come
| with several externalities that aren't baked in to the
| price of the dollar menu: * dish washing
| (do they even have dishes?) * power usage of stove
| * time to clean up * a singular, large lump of time
| to go out and buy all those food * the necessary
| mental spoons to plan those numerous meals each week
| * a refridgerator that works (mine is currently broken,
| for example) * a willingness to accept the cost of
| losing a lot of food when the fridge inevitably breaks
|
| And so on
| Jtsummers wrote:
| * a refridgerator that works (mine is currently broken,
| for example)
|
| Other than eggs, and this is in the US not all countries,
| you don't need a refrigerator for the listed items.
| Beans, rice, and oats do not require refrigeration. Many
| fruits and vegetables also don't need refrigeration [0].
| * a willingness to accept the cost of losing a lot of
| food when the fridge inevitably breaks
|
| This is mitigated by learning what does and does not need
| to be refrigerated and storing things properly.
|
| [0] https://extension.purdue.edu/foodlink/includes/pubs/S
| toring%...
| wyldberry wrote:
| They are not luxuries. Modern society has just made it easy
| to neglect these things for various reasons. The lies we tell
| ourselves about it not mandatory until you burn out or need
| medical intervention.
|
| Modern medicine will provide various interventions to help
| out such as trying to balance your brain chemistry, lowering
| obesity, blood pressure, etc. Many of the things prescribed
| to us today are due to lifestyle choices.
|
| There's a growing corpus of evidence that diet has incredible
| potential for treating serious brain disorders (when done
| with a psychiatrist, especially if you're already
| medicated)[0].
|
| At the end of the day, you are the only person who sets the
| priorities in your life. If you don't make maintenance of
| your body and mind a priority, the bill will come later.
|
| [0]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61129785-brain-
| energy
| acabal wrote:
| I think it's important to note that they're luxuries in the
| modern society we've built for ourselves in the West. Long,
| long ago, small communities without access to high-speed
| travel provided social support; no cars and little white-
| collar work means exercise was baked into life with much
| walking and manual labor; diet was mostly unprocessed food
| farmed nearby; and no screens or even electricity meant sleep
| well before midnight till dawn.
|
| Of course, there were plenty of problems back then, too - I'm
| not saying it was an idyllic utopia. But in our modern life,
| it seems like we've just traded one set of problems for
| another.
| teaearlgraycold wrote:
| I understand this is probably an uncomfortable topic, but I'd
| love to hear more from you on this.
| mattwest wrote:
| If you put diet, exercise, sleep, and social support on a
| sliding scale, can you honestly say that you're doing
| everything in your power to maximize each one?
|
| I don't know your personal details, but most people who think
| this way are not actually trying their hardest in each
| category. Sure, some small percentage is going to face
| monumental challenges. But look at the data in the US for
| example. 70% of our deaths are caused by NCDs. Most of that
| 70% has enough control of these factors to reap their
| benefits
| t-writescode wrote:
| > Most of that 70% has enough control of these factors to
| reap their benefits
|
| And yet they don't, so it suggests to me that "it's not
| that simple". It's better to imagine that people _are_
| doing what they can and it's still not enough, so rather
| than victim blaming, we can discover what's actually going
| on in these people's lives that's stopping their ability to
| reach it.
|
| Are they so downtrodden that it's not worth the effort
| anymore? Are they actually working 2-3 jobs and 100 hours
| of unexpected time a week so they literally don't have
| time? Do they live so far away from work because they can't
| afford to live close such that all their time is spent
| commuting and they have no extra time anymore?
| mattwest wrote:
| Let's be intellectually honest here.
|
| It's not victim blaming to point out that "can't" isn't
| reasonable language. Life is hard. Doesn't mean we
| "can't" have some control over these variables. As I
| said, there are edge cases that deserve sympathy but they
| don't represent the bulk of scenarios.
| t-writescode wrote:
| > there are edge cases that deserve sympathy but they
| don't represent the bulk of scenarios.
|
| You say this, but you also say, "Most of that 70% has
| enough control of these factors to reap their benefits"
|
| 70% and "most of 70%" are still either a majority or at
| the very least a plurality; so, I have to strongly
| disagree that they don't represent the bulk of the
| scenarios.
|
| Is your argument that most people are lazy and should
| suck it up and get over it and fix themselves?
| derac wrote:
| I don't think lazy is the best framing. I do think most
| people have bad habits around sleep, diet, and exercise.
| It's difficult to change these habits even if you have a
| good mentor, which most people don't. It's also very
| human to ignore advice and take the path of least
| resistance.
|
| I have been in that place myself for most of my life and
| for able-bodied people it is possible to get 150 minites
| of low-intensity excercise a week, more sun, leafy
| greens, a can of sardines each day, and such low-effort
| interventions which have a high impact on health and
| well-being.
|
| My advice to those people would be to start slow and not
| beat yourself up about having a milkshake and such. It
| takes time to build habits and good habits tend to
| cascade and encourage you, especially when you are
| happier with what you see in the mirror.
| fsdjkflsjfsoij wrote:
| > Is your argument that most people are lazy
|
| Yes most adults are extremely lazy and undisciplined.
| sysadmindotfail wrote:
| >Yes most adults are extremely lazy and undisciplined.
|
| If you do not believe this statement, ask the opinion of
| any medical provider you know.
| mattwest wrote:
| Within that 70%, most of them can:
|
| - Afford to eat healthier foods. Rice, potatoes, bell
| peppers, onions, lentils, ground beef, pork chops, eggs,
| are not expensive. Time is a bigger factor but I don't
| buy the time argument in most cases either. Just need to
| prioritize.
|
| - Improve their sleep. Most people have terrible sleep
| habits and there is a load of free information available
| for anyone who wants to make a positive change.
|
| - Exercise. Walking 30 minutes each day yields most of
| the available benefit. Strength training is also
| available for most of the population. A secondhand
| kettlebell is like 20 dollars. Calisthenics are free.
| Some gym memberships go as low as 10/month.
|
| >Is your argument that most people are lazy and should
| suck it up and get over it and fix themselves?
|
| If you want to phrase it that way in order to paint me as
| the bad guy, then sure. But I would prefer to start with
| not giving up personal responsibility. Not throwing our
| hands up and blaming externalities, big food, and big
| pharma. If someone has that attitude, what hope do they
| have? Do you not believe in empowering people? If we
| validate every single persons' victim card, they will
| eventually believe they have no control over their lives.
| And that's just not true.
| lockhouse wrote:
| I think for a lot of people it is that simple. Doing
| what's right for your health is more difficult and
| requires sacrifice.
|
| Dopamine is easy to get from doom scrolling on your
| phone, watching Netflix, or playing video games. You
| don't even have to leave your chair. Exercise is hard. It
| requires you to exert yourself and it requires training
| over time to see tangible results.
|
| Same thing with food. Going through a McDonald's drive
| through is easy and the salt, fat, and sugar taste good
| to most of us. Cracking open a cook book, putting
| together a shopping list, and going to the grocery store
| is hard. It requires planning, it requires thought. Then
| you have to come home and cook the food, which requires
| even more effort. If you cook something healthy, it won't
| be loaded up with all the salt, fat, and sugar that
| people have become accustomed to.
|
| Getting enough sleep requires discipline and sacrificing
| time. Time you could be spending doing activities that
| release dopamine, such as playing video games, or
| watching videos.
|
| Developing a healthy social support network is difficult
| too. It's easy to post things or like things on Facebook
| or Hacker News. It's much more difficult to get out there
| and be part of clubs or doing group activities and
| meeting and engaging with people in the real world. You
| have to leave your house. You have to put yourself out
| there and be a little bit vulnerable. It's particularly
| hard if you're an introvert. Nurturing strong family
| relationships takes a lot of effort too. You have to be
| the mean parent that kicks your kids off video games to
| play board games or go on a nature hike together. It's a
| lot easier to let a screen babysit them all day.
|
| I'm only talking about middle and upper class social
| dynamics of course. I've been fortunate enough to never
| experience poverty or food insecurity. I'm sure it's not
| nearly that simple for people in that situation.
| wyldberry wrote:
| Our economic system has engrained in us that if you
| aren't doing your competitive advantage money earner,
| it's better to outsource that to someone who does.
|
| That's extended to all facets of life and has bought us a
| lot of luxury time, which of course has led to a rise in
| dopamine factory applications, goods, and services to
| fill that time.
|
| Many people honestly believe "why would i spend time
| grocery shopping if i can just pay someone else to cook
| for me?"
|
| There's something to be said for the effort of doing
| things.
| landryraccoon wrote:
| Good food I can see as a luxury. How is exercise a luxury
| though? It seems like going for a walk or a run is available
| to almost everyone.
|
| If anything it seems like those on the lower income level
| would be forced to be outside doing physical activity more
| than the wealthy.
| t-writescode wrote:
| > would be forced to be outside doing physical activity
| more
|
| I have no citation, but I believe most low-income jobs in
| the US involve: * standing for long, long
| hours and not moving (cashiers) * sitting for long,
| long hours and not moving (call centers)
| xenospn wrote:
| Is someone holding a gun to your head and preventing you from
| eating fruits and vegetables?
| rocket_surgeron wrote:
| For the most profoundly addicted, the acutely dying, and
| those who are mentally ill to the point of being unable to
| participate in society these are luxuries.
|
| For everyone else, they are mandatory.
|
| Exercise is the easiest. Exercise isn't running and
| weightlifting, exercise is pushing your body to the limits so
| that its limits slowly increase over time. For 600lbs people
| exercise may be standing up and sitting down. For the
| elderly, like my 92 year old grandmother with COPD, exercise
| is curling and doing overhead presses with a heavy book while
| seated. People with cystic fibrosis exercise, and are usually
| exercise machines because if they stop they die. Patients in
| iron lungs exercise. The only people who can't exercise are
| those in hospice care. If you can stand, standing until you
| cannot stand anymore is exercise. If you can walk, 5 seconds
| more walking than you did yesterday is exercise. Wheelchair-
| bound patients with Osteogenesis Imperfecta can (and are
| highly encouraged to) exercise. Exercise costs $0.00.
|
| If you are so ill that you cannot pick up a 1 lbs dumbbell,
| putting a rubber band around your fingers and opening and
| closing your hand is exercise and will have benefits. If you
| are not acutely dying, you can exercise.
|
| All forms of exercise at all levels for all people has a
| benefit-- however small, it is a benefit.
|
| Eating right is harder, but is accessible to any able-bodied,
| homed, person. Able-bodied doesn't mean healthy. Able-bodied
| means "able to turn on a hotplate and lift a bag of beans."
|
| Social support is the hardest, but is doable for all but the
| most mentally ill. There are roughly 35,000 social support
| groups full of people looking for a social support network
| dotted across the country. Many of them meet online so anyone
| who can read HN can participate as a first step. I do not
| believe they are adequate. I do believe that online support
| groups are an outstanding and effective first step.
|
| Lacking a social support network is often fatal to human
| beings, and those who lack support need to work extremely
| hard to obtain one, but it isn't impossible.
|
| There are human being for who exercise, diet, and friends are
| luxuries.
|
| Someone active on hacker news is PROBABLY not one of them.
| dingusdew wrote:
| They are only that way because our society treats them as
| luxuries instead of baseline "these are needed to properly
| take care of yourself."
|
| Apparently only the rich deserve things like this, according
| to US society.
|
| You know, rich folks like Steve Jobs who definitely listen to
| their doctors and their support networks and definitely don't
| fall for quacky bullshit that means they die from a totally
| manageable type of cancer.
| t-writescode wrote:
| I have to disagree. That Western Society has systemically
| chosen to redefine them as luxuries and has forced its
| residents to treat them as luxuries, rather than the
| obligation for a healthy human experience that they are is a
| major source of the harm we experience every day.
|
| We need to return to considering and treating them as the
| mandatories that they are or else we will continue to
| experience the cost of neglecting them, just like neglecting
| Vitamin C results in scurvy.
| ianlevesque wrote:
| No, no, everything is a personal failing. Pull yourself up by
| those bootstraps. What externalities?
| agumonkey wrote:
| It's because western culture jumped the shark long ago. Half of
| every longevity tips is basically "no modern life". Eat fresh,
| few, move a lot, sleep a lot, talk a lot.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Few what?
| borbulon wrote:
| I was walking 10+ miles every day when I was diagnosed with
| Stage 4 Lung Cancer, which means it was growing pretty much the
| entire time I was exercising. It's not just Diet, exercise and
| sleep (and proper eating). Some of it is just plain luck.
| robinsord wrote:
| [dead]
| pazimzadeh wrote:
| I'm sorry to hear that. Theoretically, it could have
| progressed faster if you hadn't exercised?
| ericmcer wrote:
| Sorry that sucks and is doubly frustrating when you are doing
| everything right. Sort of the inverse of Richard Overton who
| would chain smoke cigars and drink Irish coffee well into his
| 100s.
| Wonnk13 wrote:
| 34 year old triathlete here: colon cancer spread from my
| colon to my lung. That said, I do think continuing to do some
| amount of exercise during chemo definitely helped me recover,
| if not just stay sane mentally.
|
| I'm about to have surgery to remove part of the lung and
| tumor and my surgeon/oncology team is making me wear a fitbit
| for three months to study my recovery.
| borbulon wrote:
| What did you do for exercise? Do you mind me asking what
| your chemo was? Was it mutation-specific?
|
| Good luck with the surgery!
| _xerces_ wrote:
| Research paper here:
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-023-33432-4
| martyvis wrote:
| As a chronic leukaemia patient (twice chemo campaign treated -
| currently in middle of one) I'd like to see this study done on my
| group. I have certainly tried to be fitter in advance of current
| treatment that started 17 days ago.
| swagasaurus-rex wrote:
| Improving the odds is a great idea. But it's naive to think these
| are cures.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Fox was in better shape than
| most people despite having lost a leg to cancer. He died age 22.
| rixary wrote:
| Little weird to reply with a specific incident. I didn't see
| anywhere this was broadcasted as a cure.
| bradlys wrote:
| The top comment is currently saying that diet, exercise, and
| a good social network are basically a cure-all to all issues
| in western society. I'm being a bit reductive but so is the
| comment.
| minsight wrote:
| There is a wide gulf between "pretty much the keys to good
| health in general" and "a cure-all to all issues in western
| society"
| biotechbio wrote:
| bioscience phd student. Why is this interesting?
|
| Tl;dr from the article, they used flow cytometry to quantify
| different cell populations in the blood, and noted that the
| proportion of CD8+ T cells (cytotoxic, the kind of immune cells
| that recognize and kill cancer cells, among other things)
| increases after exercise and returns to baseline 30 min later.
|
| Claiming that this supports the idea that cancer patients could
| benefit* from exercise is a pretty big overstep of scientific
| inference.
|
| * = in the immune response to their cancer
| Aune wrote:
| If they return to baseline in 30 minutes, was there even an
| increase to begin with? What is the mean lifetime of those
| cytotoxic cells, and would one expect such a decay in so short
| a time?
|
| I understand that it is a very dynamic system but 30 minutes
| seems very short to me. So is the return a die-off or where do
| they go?
| biotechbio wrote:
| The lifespan of T cells varies from months to years (memory T
| cells). T cell development begins in the bone marrow and
| continues in the lymphatic tissue and periphery. During their
| lifespan, these cells circulate in the body and migrate based
| on chemical gradients.
|
| What happens when you exercise? Blood pressure increases,
| blood vessels dilate. I honestly would not be surprised if
| what these authors observed was just existing T cells in
| capillary beds being kicked up into circulation, only to
| adhere and begin to intravasate a couple minutes later.
| Aune wrote:
| Excellent explanation, thanks.
|
| That seems to translate well to my layman intuition. Would
| there actually be a health benefit with respect to cancer
| (or pathogenic disease) from this "T cell migration"? Is
| there a sense in which migration of T cells spread
| information to different parts of the body or is this just
| not how it works?
| make3 wrote:
| It would be nice if we could find what triggers the body's
| improved condition when doing exercise, and trigger it maximally
| without having to do hours of repetitive nonsense.
|
| It's fine if you like to do it, but a lot of us obviously don't.
| I wonder how the progress is going in this sphere.
| Freeaqingme wrote:
| I understand where you're coming from. Recently I read someone
| saying that "it's just like brushing your teeth, it's what your
| body requires in order to keep functioning properly".
|
| That rang a bell with me. After all, I suppose pretty much
| everyone on HN brushes their teeth at least twice a day. That's
| also something that you need to build into your routine,
| somehow.
|
| The same goes for exercise. If you build up routines that
| involve exercise, then it should become easier over time as
| habits are formed.
|
| Something that doesn't help in that regard is cities where car
| use is almost unavoidable for basic stuff. Ideally, you'd live
| somewhere where schools and shops are near the places where
| people live, and the streets are designed so it's safe to walk
| or cycle. Then you could get some exercise simply by dropping
| off the children at school or doing some grocery shopping.
| Street design also isn't some natural phenomenon but something
| that city councils can make conscious decisions on, so none of
| it is a given.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| I agree, additionally from the POV that sensory attention is de
| facto focus-stealing wrt other functionalities. General or
| anecdotal benefits aside, it typically taxes other systems of
| attention very heavily.
|
| It's also shortsighted to nail ourselves to the cross of "yep,
| always gonna be exercise, that's just what it takes" when that
| potentially isn't necessary, and even worse, may prevent huge
| steps forward in use of human potential.
|
| Add to this the many cases in which exercise is not feasible or
| safe...
|
| (GPT mentions the work of Dr. Mark Tarnopolsky but I'm not
| familiar)
| its_ethan wrote:
| I'd suggest, from experience, that maybe doing "hours of
| repetitive nonsense" _is_ what triggers it maximally.
| nradov wrote:
| You're not going to find a magic pill that allows you to get
| away with being lazy. Whether you like to exercise or not is
| irrelevant. Embrace the suck.
| pyridines wrote:
| There isn't one now, fine. But why shouldn't we be trying to
| invent one?
| mattwest wrote:
| But exercise yields more benefit than just cancer prevention.
| Don't you want to maintain strength and mobility as you age?
| Sleep better? Build mental and physical resilience?
|
| I'll wager that we won't see a substitution for exercise and
| its benefits. Ever. It's just part of human life, and embracing
| it is by far the healthiest mindset.
| make3 wrote:
| I'm saying, all of these. Why are they "body moving fast"
| activated?
| mattwest wrote:
| Biology is complicated. If we start digging for mechanistic
| underpinnings, we'll uncover thousands of genes, variants,
| expression levels, metabolic pathways, epigenetic factors,
| etc etc etc. None of which will result in a cure-all pill
| or method to replace exercise and all its benefits. Just
| not gonna happen unfortunately
| JoshTko wrote:
| Interesting exception is that there have been a number of
| anecdotal reports of aerobic exercise during Covid recovery being
| a major contributor to chances of getting long Covid.
| bakemawaytoys wrote:
| When I was undergoing chemotherapy to treat Hodgkin's lymphoma, I
| tried to keep up some exercise but it was just too difficult. I
| ended up needing to take a drug to boost my white blood cell
| production so that treatment could continue. White blood cells
| are produced in your bones and this drug made it feel like every
| bone in your body was broken. It was awful.
|
| Had I known this at the time, I probably would've forced myself
| to ride my indoor stationary bike every day if it would've helped
| avoid that immune booster drug.
| martyvis wrote:
| Probably filgrastim. I have had a daily shot the last 6 days.
| ramoz wrote:
| I take the same injections, but further take Claritin as
| recommended and I've not experienced any bone pain. I'm also
| younger so that may play a factor, idk.
|
| I workout before & after chemo days (later days I'm mostly just
| walking to get 10k steps).
|
| Off weeks I'm cycling and lifting.
| DantesKite wrote:
| Makes sense.
|
| Metabolic processes and immune pathways are closely interlinked
| together (such as through the mTOR pathway).
|
| Activate mTOR and you get the signal for T cells to proliferate
| as well as muscle growth, especially in the context of
| hypertrophy.
| pazimzadeh wrote:
| It would be good to know how it affects various subsets of
| lymphocytes. Does it boost immunosuppressive lymphocytes, i.e.
| Tregs?
|
| Could the transient boost result from a boost in Tregs which
| actually chase inflammation that is caused by exercise?
| martyvis wrote:
| I am currently lying in hospital after a so far 7 night stay. I
| am post chemo for Hairy Cell Leukaemia treatment that commenced
| 17 days ago. I am doing well enough but it's a struggle. ( I
| previously was successfully treated for the same chronic
| condition 9 years ago). My normal weight is around 80kg (I'm a
| 59yo male). I think I got down to 79kg prior to treatment this
| time - we actively sought exercise in the prior weeks through
| bushwalking, walking my dog and just general DIY stuff at home. I
| certainly this chemo campaign a lot fitter than the first time.
|
| Post the first 5 days of chemo this time I dropped a kilo - it's
| hard to maintain appetite. Managing the fever that got me
| hospital admission meant that I have to take in a lot of fluid
| via IV. I reached a quite bloated 83.5kg only 2 days ago. I then
| shed 1.7kg in 1 day (no vomiting involved) - I'm sure this is
| pretty hard to achieve through normal gym work. My goal yesterday
| for today's weigh-in is 81kg. Though my nurse just told me she
| administered 500ml (so 0.5kg overnight). I'm guessing being down
| to 81.4kg is more realistic now. I couldn't exercise much
| yesterday as I was also taking onboard a weekly chemo infusion.
| Hopefully I'll be able to do some laps of the hospital ward
| balcony with my trolley as I did two days ago. I definitely
| exercise in hospital (walking) as much as my capacity allows.
| sn9 wrote:
| A lot of the daily fluctuations in weight, even in just
| everyday life for people not in hospitals, involves changes in
| water weight rather than actual changes in the tissue mass.
|
| For example, I regularly fluctuate +/- 3lbs or so around my
| true weight over the course of a day.
|
| Looking at daily values can give a distorted picture, but if
| you use those daily weighings to average into weekly numbers,
| you can track changes.
| toolz wrote:
| keep at it! I hope you come out the other end a survivor and a
| stronger person! You'll certainly have earned it.
| iskander wrote:
| Surprise twist: it's lymphoma
| rukuu001 wrote:
| And breast cancer
| hooo wrote:
| How is that related? I think he meant lymphoma because that
| increases your WBC?
| mym1990 wrote:
| For anyone interested further in this topic and generally the
| four horsemen(t2 diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and Alzheimer's
| disease), the book Outlive by Peter Attia is a very good general
| overview of factors that affect each, how medicine will need to
| evolve to a more preventative stance to move the needle on these
| diseases, what biomarkers are being discovered for these
| diseases.
|
| His general stance is that by the time someone is diagnosed with
| any of these, it is far too late to have sustainable, effective
| treatment for many.
|
| Its not exactly a short read, but is very eye opening.
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