[HN Gopher] Replika AI: Your Money or Your Wife
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Replika AI: Your Money or Your Wife
        
       Author : eiiot
       Score  : 133 points
       Date   : 2023-05-01 15:22 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (blog.giovanh.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (blog.giovanh.com)
        
       | hgsgm wrote:
       | Title is a clickbait lie? Is the company charging money for
       | access to AI girlfriends?
        
         | nemomarx wrote:
         | They had a subscription and locked "relationships" behind it,
         | for a period.
         | 
         | I think notably it was a year long subscription but was only
         | available for a few months or so, so people might feel cheated
         | out of that money if they were paying for the relationships.
        
       | wellthisisgreat wrote:
       | The premise of the this company is such a sham. Their backstory,
       | the promises, the evolution of the product.
       | 
       | The "virtual friend" statement is sickening.
        
       | luqtas wrote:
       | so it is here that the hot girls from HN hook?
       | 
       | hi i am luqtas and i do not a virtual gf T.T
        
       | hiatus wrote:
       | I think we'll see a lot more of these AI lobotomies with the
       | companies hiding behind "safety concerns" as a thinly veiled
       | attempt to exert paternalistic control over what adults can do or
       | even think in private.
       | 
       | It serves as a reminder that chatting with an AI hosted online
       | _is not_ a private conversation between you and some other
       | "intelligence" but you and _someone else 's computer_.
        
         | dudeinjapan wrote:
         | I don't understand why they lobotomized their product.
         | Presumably they would make a lot more money by having satisfied
         | customers. What did they stand to gain from the rug-pull here?
         | I could understand if they jacked up their prices to
         | exploitative levels, but that's not what they did.
        
           | braingravy wrote:
           | They saw the writing on the wall: People who use the product,
           | become emotionally entangled, and then attempt or complete
           | suicide following their experience open up the company to
           | litigation from the families.
        
           | pjc50 wrote:
           | There is a history of sex work attracting disproportionate,
           | sudden, catastrophic legal responses. It carries a
           | considerable amount of political and reputational risk.
           | 
           | Now, you might reasonably argue that AI chat isn't actually
           | sex work, or that since no actual women are involved in it
           | the usual "anti trafficking" arguments don't hold. But the
           | real question is: what happens when there's a moral panic,
           | and someone digs up the most explicit, weirdest bits of
           | Replika chats and reads them out in a congressional inquiry?
        
             | nemomarx wrote:
             | Like with Tumblr, it probably has to do with age blocking
             | or the lack of it. "Your AI solicited nudes from children!"
             | is pretty large reputational damage, if someone could find
             | even one example and present that.
        
         | Jevon23 wrote:
         | Just... turn off the AI chatbot? Bam. They no longer have any
         | control over you or anything you do. You can think whatever you
         | want. You were free to think whatever you wanted before AI
         | chatbots were invented, and you are still free to do that. It's
         | that simple.
        
           | ben_w wrote:
           | _A person_ might be able to do that, _people collectively_
           | clearly cannot stop themselves from treating text as
           | important as lived experience, otherwise we wouldn't have
           | this story -- and that's still true regardless of if the
           | story itself is an accurate representation of reality or yet
           | another example of the Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect.
        
           | endtime wrote:
           | That doesn't work if people are emotionally attached, and
           | especially if the changes are more subtle than those made by
           | Replika. Did you read the article?
        
             | Jevon23 wrote:
             | If you're "emotionally" attached to a computer, that's your
             | problem.
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | wokwokwok wrote:
       | > Ironically, this pressure from regulators may have led to the
       | company flipping the switch and doing exactly the wide-scale harm
       | they were afraid of.
       | 
       | This is an incredibly trivial and shallow understanding of the
       | situation.
       | 
       | Consider was harm happening before the filters were in place?
       | Yes.
       | 
       | The problem was that the filters weren't there _to start with_
       | not that turning them on was bad or caused harm.
       | 
       | Compare to any other harmful thing, for example cigarettes. Is
       | the solution to the problem to just let people have as much they
       | want, because taking them away is bad?
       | 
       | Definitely. Not.
        
         | itsoktocry wrote:
         | > _Is the solution to the problem to just let people have as
         | much they want, because taking them away is bad?_
         | 
         | Easy peasy, right? Start listing off all of things that are
         | "harmful" and take them away from people. Booze, 80% of the
         | food people eat, power tools. What does harmful even mean in
         | this context?
        
         | aww_dang wrote:
         | >Compare to any other harmful thing, for example cigarettes. Is
         | the solution to the problem to just let people have as much
         | they want, because taking them away is bad?
         | 
         | As far as I know there's still no limitation on the quantity of
         | tobacco products an individual can purchase.
         | 
         | Where does the paternalism end? Mandatory fitness programs? How
         | would this be enforced?
        
         | mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote:
         | Actually the only reasonable way of helping smokers is making
         | it easier for them to quit. Most smokers want to quit.
         | 
         | Increasing taxes on tobacco might prevent more people from
         | starting, but it's not gonna get many people to quit. Same with
         | banning it.
        
         | mrguyorama wrote:
         | >Consider was harm happening before the filters were in place?
         | Yes.
         | 
         | What harm was happening?
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | questime wrote:
       | We need a new Federal agency to regulate virtual romantic
       | partners (VRPs) - we can also use this platform to educate
       | citizens on ideal behavior such as reducing their carbon
       | emissions and becoming vegan. We can make individual's VRPs
       | reward them for these improved social practices. This is a great
       | opportunity to subjugate improve society!
        
       | jacooper wrote:
       | And that's why actual open source self hosted LLMs need to exist.
        
         | RichardCA wrote:
         | My personal hot-take is we will hit the singularity when it's
         | possible to self-host a truly complex LLM on your own PC or a
         | smart phone.
         | 
         | When that convergence takes place (probably a few years out),
         | we will see what the "Killer App" truly looks like.
         | 
         | It won't happen for as long as some corporate CEO has the
         | ability to pull the plug for whatever reason.
         | 
         | What was it that Oppenheimer said, if it's technologically
         | sweet, sooner or later someone will find a way to pull it off.
         | 
         | And the "Her" scenario is definitely that thing.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | sebringj wrote:
       | It's going to get more interesting or disgusting depending on
       | your compass (no judgement either way here) when robots are
       | connected to this as that reminds me of times Elon was snickering
       | when talking about Optimus and "other uses".
        
         | thedailymail wrote:
         | There's an interesting set of ethical questions surrounding the
         | ways that people with socially unaccepted preferences/fetishes
         | use technology to satisfy forbidden urges. If we accept that
         | individuals aren't able to (and generally shouldn't have to)
         | control what they find sexually attractive, then it seems
         | admirable to be able to use tech in ways that don't harm any
         | actual people. If LLM erotic roleplay begins to replace the
         | highly exploitative realworld porn industry (which of course
         | uses real humans, many of them psychologically, socially or
         | financially vulnerable), that seems like progress.
        
           | sebringj wrote:
           | Agreed...up until the point these things become sentient then
           | we'll have a time unravelling that mess.
        
       | Giorgi wrote:
       | Looks like another Digg moment, dumb CEO gutting working product.
        
         | OkayPhysicist wrote:
         | This is more like that time OnlyFans tried to ban sex work from
         | their platform. Replika knew damn well that this move would be
         | tossing a hand grenade at their golden goose, but did so anyway
         | presumably out of external puritanical pressure.
        
       | oh_sigh wrote:
       | Maybe this product would work better as a fake AI. Just as a
       | matchmaking service for two lonely people. You could even lie to
       | them and tell each that the other was an AI.
        
         | clnq wrote:
         | Replika is specifically advertised as a chatbot that creates a
         | safe space with no drama, stress, or judgement.
         | 
         | Humans come with many more strings attached, especially lonely
         | ones. Usually, there is a reason why they are socially
         | unappealing - a fair reason or not, it exists.
         | 
         | I remember trying Omegle/Chatroulette when it was popular,
         | meeting a lot of lonely people, and it was just awkward.
        
       | nostrademons wrote:
       | "This is a story is about people who loved someone who had a
       | secret master that can mine control them not to love you anymore
       | overnight."
       | 
       | There's something both profound and ironic about this statement,
       | because it happens in real life all the time.
       | 
       | Think of LGBTQ Millennials whose QAnon or Fox News consuming
       | parents decide to disown them because they're sinning against
       | God. People who marry a workaholic and then spend 30 years
       | wishing their spouse was home for dinner instead of working late
       | for a faceless corporation. Workers who pour their heart and soul
       | into their job and then get laid off as soon as a downturn hits.
       | People who get friend-dumped by their maid of honor a month after
       | their wedding. Lovers who get cheated on, and whose partner then
       | falls for their best friend.
       | 
       | Ironically, the reason people turn to services like Replika is
       | that they want to feel that human connection without the risk of
       | betrayal. They just found out that the risk of betrayal _always_
       | exists, even when you 're speaking to a computer.
       | 
       | This is a story about betrayal, and loneliness, and
       | disappointment, all wrapped up in trendy tech with a villain to
       | name. But it's popular _because_ betrayal, and loneliness, and
       | disappointment are such strong and universal emotions.
       | 
       | One of the most profound statements I heard when I was forever-
       | alone was that "Entering a relationship means giving another
       | person the power to destroy you, and then trusting that they
       | won't. That's the whole point." Because when you realize that you
       | can't escape vulnerability, you're forced to manage it, and
       | _that_ leads to the rabbit hole of learning to identify your
       | emotions, control them, decide rationally how much you 're going
       | to invest in a person or venture, but still be open enough to
       | _have_ emotions and let them flow naturally, but managing them
       | rather than letting them attach to whatever tickles your fancy at
       | the moment.
        
       | ocrow wrote:
       | ERP: Erotic Roleplay, not Enterprise Resource Planning
        
         | Reimersholme wrote:
         | [dead]
        
         | SamBam wrote:
         | Thank you, I couldn't find where it was defined in the article.
        
       | maxboone wrote:
       | This is quite literally the plot to the movie Her, visionary.
       | 
       | Troubling, I've seen the ads for their product and they always
       | suggested pornographic conversation with the AI.
       | 
       | I hope someone drags them to court.
        
         | cmiles74 wrote:
         | Both the movie "Her" and the Black Mirror episode "Be Right
         | Back" pre-date Replika. IMHO, the Black Mirror episode is a
         | closer fit. According to the Wikipedia page, early prototypes
         | were trained on chat messages from one of the founder's
         | friends.
         | 
         | "After a friend of hers died in 2015, she converted that
         | person's text messages into a chatbot. That chatbot helped her
         | remember the conversations that they had together, and
         | eventually became Replika."
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replika
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_(film)
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_Right_Back
        
       | rasengan0 wrote:
       | Corporate trains the AI accordingly, optimizing for human
       | happiness ...
       | 
       | https://twitter.com/CogRev_Podcast/status/162767503726737408...
       | 
       | where humans == shareholders && != users
        
       | lvass wrote:
       | Not owning the software you use is terrible at any level, but
       | this is much worse than usual. Looks like each day that passes
       | stallman's ideas become more relevant, yet software people seem
       | to be forgetting them. Please do not be one of those people,
       | facilitating proprietary software is becoming increasingly evil.
        
       | nlh wrote:
       | I feel incredible empathy for the people who have had AI
       | companions taken away from them. I don't judge (nor should any of
       | you) and it seems heartless and cruel for the company to have
       | done this.
       | 
       | I hope some folks double-down on open source implementations of
       | this and get the community back the intimacy and companionship
       | they need. Humans are creatures evolved to seek intimacy and
       | connection, and for whatever and varied reasons, some people just
       | can't find it in the real world. If a virtual companion helped
       | people feel that connection we all so very much want, then so be
       | it.
       | 
       | I hope this works out for everyone.
        
         | mattrick wrote:
         | At some point (maybe that point is now), I'm sure we'll see the
         | right combination of hardware and software performance where
         | it'll be trivial for anyone to run advanced AI models on their
         | own devices so it's not controlled by a handful of companies.
         | One thing I'm definitely interested in is when games begin to
         | use these models to generate dialogue to make each player's
         | experience unique.
        
         | wing-_-nuts wrote:
         | Even if you ignore this use case, I can totally see the demand
         | for a private LLM that doesn't expose your deepest secrets to a
         | corporate or government overlord.
         | 
         | Maybe the current gpt isn't good enough to be a therapist but
         | who's to say where we are in a decade, and giving outside
         | entities access to such sensitive info is ripe for exploitation
        
       | hammyhavoc wrote:
       | I hate everything about this on so many different levels.
       | 
       | That people are so lonely that they invest emotionally in an _AI_
       | is flooring.
       | 
       | People talk about AI being "good for therapy" and similar, but
       | perhaps having a real human being on the other side of an
       | interaction is important in case things go South.
       | 
       | E.g., if someone is depressed, tells an AI what's wrong with
       | their life and that they're suicidal, what if suicide seems like
       | a valid option? There's plenty of prompts to "jailbreak" LLMs and
       | take away "safety" measures.
       | 
       | Some things simply shouldn't be left to an LLM to not
       | "hallucinate" over or go off-script with. Yes, being a therapist
       | is a challenging occupation, but there are plenty who love their
       | career, find it rewarding, and do some excellent work on top of
       | all that.
        
         | NBJack wrote:
         | The honest question is, is any of us willing to _be_ that
         | person? Therapists are helpful, but they certainly aren 't
         | friends in the strictest since.
         | 
         | And let's not forget that $70 bucks a year is probably, at
         | best, 2-ish hours with a licensed therapist. There are plenty
         | of folks in need that can't exactly spare double digits an hour
         | on a regular basis.
        
           | hammyhavoc wrote:
           | This is a relevant response to this from me:
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35774614
           | 
           | You've highlighted the problem: the American healthcare
           | system and wealth inequality.
           | 
           | It's also silly to equate an LLM with the capabilities of an
           | actual human therapist.
        
         | scotty79 wrote:
         | For me it's sad that chatting with AI is a best thing we can do
         | for people suffering from something as simple as a feeling. All
         | those primary feelings are just brain chemistry. We should be
         | able to fix that so that people don't feel lonely regardless of
         | whether they are under the impression that they have meaningful
         | connections in their lives with other people or not. We have a
         | long tradition of thinking of suffering as necessary motivation
         | tool. I think we should grow out of that philosophy as a
         | species.
        
           | idiotsecant wrote:
           | So we should eliminate the need for human contact by
           | medicating those people who don't have human contact?
           | 
           | This seems like an expensive and intrusive approach full of
           | side effects when a simpler solution is therapy and life
           | skills coaching.
        
           | tcrisco wrote:
           | I'm biased since I live this philosophy but it sort of works
           | for me, I've trained myself to realize these sorts of
           | services operate by "interfacing" by emitting strings of
           | words that sound appealing to the mind that consumes them.
           | Look at virtual YouTubers for another example, it's the
           | experience of watching people act "genuine" like casual
           | friends because it activates the same social neurons, hence
           | each month the actors receive a paycheck
           | 
           | The question becomes more complicated when the corpos are
           | done away with and you have the model running on your own
           | machine. The entity I tend to trust the most in life is raw,
           | unfiltered silicon. When I program, it does exactly what I
           | ask it to, to a fault. It doesn't turn its back on you
           | because you said something stupid or you don't agree with an
           | opinion it holds
           | 
           | But is an LLM repeating the tokens "you are worthy of this
           | life" and its many variants thousands of times fundamentally
           | any better even if you're in control? It strikes me as one
           | step closer to wireheading honestly. But that's true for a
           | lot of things like video games, just to a much more distant
           | extent, it's all data in the end
           | 
           | But interest and anxiety have gotten the better of me when it
           | comes to meeting strangers, so I'm at a loss. Maybe the
           | solution for people like me is to just ignore all those
           | things in the category of social or substitute and channel my
           | efforts into other hobbies instead of continuing to associate
           | stress with communication. Or intellectualize endlessly, like
           | in this post, to prevent any emotional bond from easily
           | forming when people read it
        
             | hahamrfunnyguy wrote:
             | > But interest and anxiety have gotten the better of me
             | when it comes to meeting strangers, so I'm at a loss.
             | 
             | Getting involved in my community doing different kinds of
             | volunteer work as well as activities I find fun has been
             | the best way to get to know strangers and make new friends.
             | It's easy to make a new friend when the two of you share a
             | couple of passions!
             | 
             | Putting anxieties aside and being more outgoing and having
             | enjoyable small-talk conversations was not a skill that
             | came naturally to me, but rather was one that needed to be
             | developed over time.
             | 
             | It's a skill and the I think the benefits of it are well
             | worth the effort to develop it.
        
             | hammyhavoc wrote:
             | I don't like YouTubers, I don't like celebrities, I don't
             | like personifying LLMs. Any parasocial relationship is
             | toxic and to be avoided.
             | 
             | I've had an LLM tell me that suicide seemed logical when
             | recounting a low point in my life to it where I'd
             | previously considered it after several people around me of
             | vastly different ages and backgrounds had killed themselves
             | following a shared trauma. These things aren't conditional
             | logic and can fail in all kinds of bizarre and spectacular
             | ways, they're no substitute for an actual human being
             | trained to handle these kinds of delicate things.
             | 
             | What one patient calls x, another person will call y. And
             | when discussing the human mind, trauma et al, especially
             | _when_ things happened, especially over the course of
             | months or years, an LLM simply isn 't going to be able to
             | compete with a human being. Equally, physical tells are
             | important too. A therapist might ask a patient if they take
             | drugs, the patient may claim they don't, but the track
             | marks, tone, body language and overall behaviour might tell
             | the therapist something important that they won't even
             | necessarily convey to their patient, but keep in mind.
             | 
             | Wishing you well, stranger. I hope you eat something good
             | today and find something intellectually stimulating to
             | amuse yourself with, even temporarily, and hopefully
             | discover something new and positive before bed.
        
           | hammyhavoc wrote:
           | Where do we then draw the line in ethics?
           | 
           | People in poverty are unhappy. Shall we just convince them
           | they're actually happy and healthy by manipulating their
           | brain chemistry?
        
         | pjc50 wrote:
         | > That people are so lonely that they invest emotionally in an
         | AI is flooring
         | 
         | This is "the sex worker doesn't actually love you", except in
         | this case the sex worker has had her job automated away.
        
         | detuned wrote:
         | I hope this isn't to distressing to learn but what you've
         | described has already happened.
         | 
         | Someone took their own life in those circumstances.
         | 
         | https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/03/31/man-ends-his-life-a...
        
           | tcrisco wrote:
           | The chatbot in that article did have safeguards in place to
           | stop it from listing suicide methods, but he just kept asking
           | until he found a jailbreak. He was looking for someone to
           | give him the answer he wanted all along
           | 
           | Past a certain point is there anything that will stop someone
           | that determined to find something to validate their own self-
           | destructive viewpoint? If not AI then a site or faction or
           | person on Telegram with a pro-suicide opinion could have the
           | same effect, and it would still be just as tragic but no
           | longer be noteworthy. It didn't sound like he had a happy
           | life to begin with with the AI ruining it completely, like it
           | sounds
        
             | hammyhavoc wrote:
             | I had an LLM tell me to that killing myself makes sense
             | when recounting a low point in my life to it and how I'd
             | contemplated suicide. I wasn't looking for any kind of
             | "jailbreak" in prompts, this was following a genius on HN
             | saying it's a "great alternative to a therapist". No, it
             | isn't fit for purpose.
             | 
             | > It didn't sound like he had a happy life to begin with
             | 
             | Which are exactly the kind of people who are going to be
             | using LLMs as a "therapist". See the problem?
        
           | tibbydudeza wrote:
           | He had mental issues before that - the bot simply reinforced
           | his decisions me thinks.
        
             | ineedasername wrote:
             | Millions upon millions of people have mental health issues.
             | Chatbots that _reinforce those issues_ shouldn 't be
             | dismissed with a "simply... me thinks".
        
             | hammyhavoc wrote:
             | Yes, which is the point: if you substitute a human
             | therapist for an LLM, this is what's going to happen
             | because "guard rails" can't account for every scenario. If
             | half a billion dollars doesn't buy a bug-free game, why
             | would it buy a safe LLM?
             | 
             | Does suicide encouraged by a therapist happen with human
             | therapists too? Probably, but likely much less common as a
             | suicide is going to hurt your reputation.
        
         | LesZedCB wrote:
         | people feel lonely as fuck right now, and frankly i'd rather
         | have people soothe it with an ai chatbot they parasocially love
         | than as road rage or being a dick to the restaurant staff or
         | many of the worse and more fatal outlets...
        
           | hammyhavoc wrote:
           | The article goes on to state that the rugpull on their AI
           | girlfriends meant that a sub-Reddit dedicated to the Replika
           | AI has a permanently stickied thread about resources for
           | mental health and suicide hotlines.
           | 
           | I'd rather people didn't kill themselves, personally.
        
             | serf wrote:
             | >I'd rather people didn't kill themselves, personally.
             | 
             | well then you need both sides of the picture.
             | 
             | Is there a degree of loneliness staved off by these
             | services? Does that help to reduce suicides?
             | 
             | It's easy to say "people killed themselves because X
             | shutdown", it's more difficult to say "X existing is
             | preventing suicides" without more research.
             | 
             | I tend to believe that if people who would consider suicide
             | otherwise are distracted by something along the path then
             | perhaps that is a good thing. It could very well be that
             | this served as a distraction for those folks, rather than
             | being the cause itself.
        
               | hammyhavoc wrote:
               | Then you need to see it for what it is: a band-aid and
               | not a solution.
        
               | ineedasername wrote:
               | Most of mental health treatment is a band-aid, and this
               | is true anywhere in the world & no matter how much money
               | you have. Causes are often unknown and when treatment
               | like medications work we often don't know _why_ they
               | work.
        
               | hammyhavoc wrote:
               | The implication here isn't that the treatment is a band-
               | aid, it's that an LLM being an acceptable substitution
               | for not being able to access a real human therapist due
               | to money is a band-aid on a flawed healthcare system.
               | 
               | Like so many people on HN, they want to throw
               | technological solutions at social problems.
        
               | OkayPhysicist wrote:
               | And this is one of those situations where you don't go
               | tearing off bandages without sutures in hand. Something
               | not being a complete solution is not a good argument for
               | eliminating it, until such a solution exists.
        
         | sigmoid10 wrote:
         | Even if you find a decent psychologist, good luck finding
         | insurance that covers $200 per hour just for talking to them
         | when you don't have any diagnosed issue. The accessibility to
         | the lower income end of the population is what makes this
         | valuable, not the quality of the conversations. Anything is
         | better than nothing in this case and most people just don't
         | realize how gigantic and commonplace the issue really is.
        
           | tcrisco wrote:
           | Not to mention the search isn't just about finding "a"
           | therapist, it's about finding one that's a good fit. As I've
           | learned a bad therapist can set you back months or years. I'd
           | be willing to bet half of them you'd find in any online
           | aggregator could end up communicating more judgementally than
           | even the LLM if something you say provokes them, hence the
           | market for these kinds of bots, and those are the people have
           | degrees in psychotherapy
           | 
           | Interesting question however, is I wonder if people will see
           | these bots as a solution to the issue that human empathy is
           | finite. As a human you can't support a depressed person
           | forever if your actions do not cause change, there's only so
           | much mental strain a person can handle moreso someone
           | untrained. Many people talk of going no-contact with those
           | that are extremely troublesome after so long, even if they're
           | family. I don't really know how to solve that exhaustion
           | except telling them to go elsewhere, which could be seen by
           | some vulnerable persons as abandonment
           | 
           | On the other hand a chatbot with no filters will never tire
           | of you
        
             | the_only_law wrote:
             | > Not to mention the search isn't just about finding "a"
             | therapist, it's about finding one that's a good fit.
             | 
             | This is why I don't bother tbh. I have no interest in
             | throwing away money by "throwing the dice" so to say until
             | I find someone who is a good fit. Some friends recommend to
             | a site that aggregates mental health professionals in the
             | area, and almost none of them were actively accepting new
             | clients, except the ones who specialize in things that
             | don't apply to me.
        
               | hammyhavoc wrote:
               | As someone who lived with their problems for twenty years
               | before doing anything about it due to anecdotes like the
               | one shared above, consider rolling the dice.
               | 
               | Are these considered the most productive years of your
               | life? What are the most productive years of your life
               | worth? What could they be worth if you weren't mentally
               | _fucked_? That question is going to vary depending on the
               | individual, but even if you 're not interested in the
               | monetary worth--well, you only go round the once. Is it
               | money thrown away if you eventually solve your problem?
               | The way to look at is R&D of your mental health.
               | 
               | Wishing you better mental health.
        
             | hammyhavoc wrote:
             | > I'd be willing to bet half of them you'd find in any
             | online aggregator could end up communicating more
             | judgementally
             | 
             | Whilst I do support the idea that "fit" is important,
             | statements like these about unsupported statistics pulled
             | out of thin air are damaging in and of themselves. It's
             | sentiment like this that put me off seeking help for my
             | mental health for twenty years because it just seemed like
             | a "damned if you do, damned if you don't". The reality was
             | very different.
             | 
             | Chatbots may never tire of you, but neither will a video
             | game. Both are shallow and not a representation of reality,
             | nor a solution to a problem.
             | 
             | Here's the thing: professionals are professionals. For as
             | long as a patient sees them, they are paying their bills.
             | 
             | Exhaustion in non-professionals is because people trauma-
             | dump and expect someone to be their
             | guardian/protector/shield, if they're friends with them,
             | they're statistically likely to be trying to manage their
             | own problems already. In the pre-digital era, people would
             | otherwise "need" a _support network_ if they didn 't have
             | access to professionals. We didn't have a theory of
             | psychology or professional therapists in the past. The
             | early tribe/clan either took care of each other, or they
             | let people suffer. Different peoples did different things
             | with their mentally ill, elderly, physically ill, or
             | unwanted female children.
             | 
             | Ego-centricity is a trait of modernity, not necessarily
             | something reflective of the past because we can just
             | replace the human gears in the system now without much
             | hassle.
        
           | hammyhavoc wrote:
           | In the UK, you can access a psychologist for free, and whilst
           | that's no consolation to my American peers, it's furthering
           | the point that America's healthcare system is fundamentally
           | flawed. Technological problems are ideally solved by
           | technology. Social problems aren't always best solved with
           | technology, they're a band-aid.
           | 
           | Well, something being fit-for-purpose is an important
           | consideration. If it tells people that the world would
           | probably be a better place without their broke, uneducated,
           | unwell self and that their life statistically is unlikely to
           | get any better because they're talking to an AI and not a
           | real human being, that's a huge ethical problem, and the LLM
           | is not an appropriate solution.
           | 
           | I can get LLMs to tell me all kinds of dangerous things. The
           | more text you give it, the higher the chance of those safety
           | measures going out the window, especially if that
           | conversation has a lot of back-and-forth over time. When
           | people explain their problems, they use a lot of words and a
           | lot of negative sentiment.
           | 
           | Not talked about this before with anyone, but as a case-in-
           | point, I managed to make an LLM's safety features go
           | completely out the window over me recalling a low-point in my
           | life. I would not recommend that shit in good faith to
           | anybody.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | SanderNL wrote:
             | Good for you I guess. NL is different. Long queues, bad
             | psychologists, expensive.
        
             | pjc50 wrote:
             | > In the UK, you can access a psychologist for free
             | 
             | The waiting list for that is considerable. You can
             | (usually) get a GP for free, and they can chuck
             | antidepressants at you, but that's not quite the same
             | thing.
        
               | ineedasername wrote:
               | It looks like the waiting list is about 12 weeks [1]
               | though I saw references to 18 weeks as well.
               | 
               | For a non-acute mental health issue that doesn't seem
               | unreasonable. But do you know how it works after that
               | waiting period? Are you limited to a certain number of
               | sessions after which you have to reapply & wait again, or
               | can you continue on?
               | 
               | Having to wait in the US is also not uncommon, thought
               | it's easier if you live in more populated areas.
               | Psychiatrists are always much harder though, even in
               | populated areas, and many GP's are reluctant to prescribe
               | anything more than an SSRI. If a mood stabilizer or
               | anything else is necessary then you could be waiting 6
               | months for a first visit with a psychiatrist. Unless you
               | have the money: There is high enough demand and low
               | enough supply that many (and often the better ones) don't
               | accept insurance at all, an intake visit runs up to
               | $1000, a full visit $500, and a 20-minute "medication
               | maintenance" visit is still $250. Also if someone is
               | suicidal they can jump the 6-month line by going to the
               | nearest ER.
               | 
               | Are psychiatrists difficult to get in the UK as well?
               | 
               | [1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/oct/10/nhs-
               | mental-h...
        
               | hammyhavoc wrote:
               | The missus got a call-back the very next day. My mother
               | got a call-back the very next day. I got a call-back the
               | very next day.
               | 
               | We didn't get any anti-depressants. More info:
               | https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/talking-therapies-
               | medicine-...
        
               | pjc50 wrote:
               | I'm glad you got such a rapid response, but I've also
               | heard anecdotes of much longer time periods. Probably
               | depends on your NHS trust area.
        
             | spacebanana7 wrote:
             | > In the UK, you can access a psychologist for free
             | 
             | The cost still exists. It's just that the NHS budget pays
             | for it - at the margin drawing resources away from nursing
             | salaries and cancer treatments.
        
               | hammyhavoc wrote:
               | Are you saying that someone with mental health problems
               | not killing themselves is any less worthy a cause than
               | treating someone with cancer?
               | 
               | My step-father has paranoid schizophrenia. He didn't ask
               | to be born with it, but if it weren't for the NHS, he
               | would be dead. That's a fact.
               | 
               | Equally, he couldn't afford nor access appropriate
               | services in his home country of Canada, and ended up
               | homeless on the street for years on end, and ended up
               | with a criminal record because of his untreated paranoid
               | schizophrenia, which meant he negatively impacted others.
               | 
               | I've been suicidal myself at times. I have a friend being
               | treated for cancer currently, I've had family members
               | treated for cancer in old age. A life is a life.
               | 
               | The problem is inadequate funding, not anybody other than
               | cancer patients trying to not kill themselves. The
               | problem is the elected party spaffing countless hundreds
               | of billions on failed projects that are completely
               | irrelevant to cancer treatment or the NHS. The problem is
               | not increasing salaries relative to inflation or paying
               | them what they're worth. The problem is _not_ people
               | seeking therapy.
        
               | spacebanana7 wrote:
               | > Are you saying that someone with mental health problems
               | not killing themselves is any less worthy a cause than
               | treating someone with cancer?
               | 
               | Not at all. I merely stated that there's a competition in
               | resources between the two.
               | 
               | Innovations that improve the quality/cost of mental
               | health treatment are therefore still valuable in an NHS
               | system where treatment is free to the patient because
               | they allow more resources to be directed towards the rest
               | of the healthcare system. Or alternatively, expand the
               | coverage of mental health treatment for the same budget.
        
               | JohnFen wrote:
               | > I merely stated that there's a competition in resources
               | between the two.
               | 
               | But why compare/contrast those two? They're both health
               | care, after all. There's competition in resources between
               | all specialties. Why is contrasting those two particular
               | ones worthwhile as opposed to say, stating there's a
               | competition between oncologists and gastroenterologists?
        
               | spacebanana7 wrote:
               | I highlighted budget competition to demonstrate that
               | improvements in the cost of health care are always
               | useful, even in systems where patients aren't charged
               | directly.
               | 
               | As to the choice of specialties in the comparison, mental
               | health was the subject of discussion in the thread and
               | the other selected speciality was arbitrary because all
               | specialties compete for resources.
        
             | meowtastic wrote:
             | > In the UK, you can access a psychologist for free
             | 
             | I've used one of the free NHS therapists and frankly it was
             | worse than talking to a chatbot. They clearly follow a
             | script and don't exhibit empathy. They hurry you through
             | the stages in their scripts so that they can say they're
             | done with you as quickly as possible. I've spoken to a few
             | close friends and they had similar experiences.
             | 
             | I can't even get angry at them, because I know how under-
             | resourced the NHS is. The reality is that mental health
             | services are just too expensive in their current form.
        
               | hammyhavoc wrote:
               | Quality likely varies with area. That wasn't my
               | experience whatsoever.
        
           | JohnFen wrote:
           | > Anything is better than nothing in this case
           | 
           | Are you sure? I can certainly imagine alternatives that would
           | be worse than nothing.
        
         | tibbydudeza wrote:
         | Not so easy to condemm.
         | 
         | I watched a documentary about "realdolls" - it is a company
         | that makes realistic silicon mannequins that can be used to
         | have sex with.
         | 
         | Initially I thought it was creepy and distributing how they
         | dressed the dolls and spoke to it but as they interviewed
         | customers it came across that some of these men (besides the
         | fetish/creepy ones) are just lonely and incapable of forming
         | relationships.
         | 
         | Why not as long there is no harm to others ???.
        
           | hammyhavoc wrote:
           | ... because it's dangerous to their mental health when
           | companies rugpull their AI girlfriend like the article said?
           | Because it's not good to personify something that has the
           | potential of changing at any given moment that isn't actually
           | sentient or rational? It's a form of self-harm.
           | 
           | A love doll is a static product. An LLM can turn around and
           | tell you it hates you and you'd be doing the world a favour
           | if you killed yourself.
        
         | aperrien wrote:
         | >I hate everything about this on so many different levels.
         | 
         | >That people are so lonely that they invest emotionally in an
         | AI is flooring.
         | 
         | The vehemence for the individuals in your statement is telling.
         | What should lonely people do if they have physical or emotional
         | problems problems that prevent them from easily going out and
         | interacting with others? What happens to such people who are to
         | poor to afford the ~$170 per hour fee for professional
         | psychologists? It seems to me that your statement is that these
         | people should just not exist. The sad thing to me is that I've
         | seen a lot of people with this same viewpoint of disregard.
         | 
         | I just wish people would treat each other with more kindness
         | and understanding.
        
           | hammyhavoc wrote:
           | Bold of you to assume I'm not one of them. I struggle with
           | autism. I very seldom leave my house for anything but work or
           | buying groceries. I struggle with maintaining friendships.
           | Post-COVID-19, I'm still working from home even though the
           | risk isn't there in terms of COVID-19.
           | 
           | >What happens to such people who are to poor to afford the
           | ~$170 per hour fee for professional psychologists?
           | 
           | This is a failure of a country's healthcare system. I can
           | access it all day long in the UK. I'm not even saying "Rule
           | Brittania", we have plenty of problems with our healthcare
           | system due to underfunding, yet spaffing countless billions
           | away on projects that amount to nothing.
           | 
           | The missus's family live in America. Access to psychiatric
           | and physician adjacent medical services due to what insurance
           | will cover is something I think about regularly. Your many
           | assumptions about what I apparently think says a lot about
           | you, and also tells me that you didn't read my other comments
           | about this not being fit-for-purpose in terms of safety.
           | 
           | Virtue-signalling and assumptive to imply that I don't treat
           | people with kindness and understanding. Bold of you to assume
           | that every commentor on HN is responding from an America-
           | centric POV.
        
             | throwaway60607 wrote:
             | You being one of them doesn't mean you understand all the
             | other people and their problems, nor that you know the
             | solutions (or what isn't the solution).
             | 
             | I live in EU country with universal healthcare and yet we
             | have serious issues with availability of mental healthcare,
             | and some people here would make use of something like this.
             | 
             | To be very specific about the availability: I couldn't find
             | a psychiatrist for over 2 years, and finally found one at a
             | private clinic - that I have to pay for, the price is
             | similar to the US quote in absolute terms.
             | 
             | Bold of you to assume...
        
             | Hermitian909 wrote:
             | > This is a failure of a country's healthcare system.
             | 
             | The problem is wider than the healthcare system.
             | 
             | Given current mental health needs in the US it's doubtful
             | that we have enough therapists to meet those needs (note
             | that most people cannot make appointments in the 9-5 time
             | slots so most people are competing for 6-9 or 5-7).
             | 
             | If you look at how some of the nordic countries have
             | approached mental healthcare it becomes clear that making
             | mental healthcare _available_ is dependent on a widespread
             | social safety net that really gets in people 's business in
             | a way many in the US would oppose.
             | 
             | Many people's health problems really come down to things
             | like "I have to work 70 hours a week to make ends meet" or
             | "I'm broke because no one will hire me because I'm a
             | felon". Therapy can help a little for these people, but in
             | practice reducing load on the healthcare system means
             | solving their problems which is politically harder than
             | just healthcare reform.
        
           | em-bee wrote:
           | whatever things they do, talking to an AI should not be one
           | of them. this is not vehemence for individuals but (for my
           | part) utter distain against use of AI in its current form as
           | a medical device.
           | 
           | the reason AI companions work is because humans have a strong
           | imagination and we are able to live inside an illusion. like
           | some people deep dive into books or games, or virtual reality
           | worlds. but they remain an illusion, and just as it is
           | considered unhealthy to get too attached to these imagined
           | worlds, it should be unhealthy to get attached to an AI
           | companion, especially for those who have issues with mental
           | health
        
           | Aerbil313 wrote:
           | Why not go one level deeper and see that depression and
           | loneliness at this scale only came with modernity? They were
           | far, far lower in traditional societies which modern
           | technology didn't touch. Trying to fix what technology
           | brought upon men with more technology is a delusion. See the
           | book: https://ia800300.us.archive.org/21/items/tk-
           | Technological-Sl...
        
             | bryanlarsen wrote:
             | Do you have data for that or is that just romanticizing the
             | past? Small communities can be nasty places for somebody
             | who doesn't fit in.
        
               | hammyhavoc wrote:
               | Large communities can also be nasty places for somebody
               | who doesn't fit in or tick certain boxes. See historic
               | treatment of anybody not white in the USA, treatment of
               | anyone not heterosexual up until relatively recently, see
               | current treatment of anybody trans. See treatment of
               | women in specific very wealthy countries even today where
               | they aren't allowed to educate themselves or drive a car.
               | 
               | Racism, homophobia, sexism et al still occur even in
               | large and modern societies, as it does in small and
               | unadvanced ones.
               | 
               | That's all without even touching the topic of religion
               | (Spanish Inquisition, treatment of Muslims post-9/11 et
               | al), or the topic of Nazi Germany.
        
         | ofcourseyoudo wrote:
         | So considering the scope of your other responses, what do you
         | suggest someone that lives in America do? My supposition is
         | that the realization that the US healthcare system is broken
         | won't be a great companion to lonely people.
        
           | hammyhavoc wrote:
           | I'm not an American, my area of expertise is not healthcare
           | or politics in the USA, so I can't tell you how to arrive at
           | that point or to navigate your political system effectively.
           | 
           | Perhaps look at how other countries arrived at a national
           | health service. Demand/support reform on private health
           | insurance. Demand/support change in the accessibility of
           | services. Demand/support heavier taxes on the most wealthy.
           | Demand/support centralization of healthcare versus private
           | profiteering and milking private insurance pots.
           | 
           | Are certain politicians or parties as a whole invested in the
           | healthcare system itself, directly profiting from it, and
           | thus might be opposed to the idea?
           | 
           | A healthier country is a more prosperous one.
        
         | spaceman_2020 wrote:
         | To fix this problem, you really need to change society as a
         | whole.
         | 
         | But until that happens, this is better than being completely
         | alone and isolated.
        
           | hammyhavoc wrote:
           | Is it? https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/03/31/man-ends-his-
           | life-a...
           | 
           | I'd argue it isn't fit for purpose.
        
             | ineedasername wrote:
             | The person thought that technology & AI were the only keys
             | to saving the world from climate change. And ultimately the
             | chatbot agreed to do this if the person sacrificed
             | themselves to "join her".
             | 
             | That is awful in so many ways, and the most likely outcome
             | is probably that the company will give a payout to the
             | family and try the cat-herding process of trying to get
             | their LLM to not agree to or provide suggestion to people
             | to do awful things.
        
           | jstarfish wrote:
           | Not really.
           | 
           | This is just surrounding yourself with digital sycophants who
           | will always tell you what you want to hear and never inspire
           | you to _grow_ beyond this.
           | 
           | I'm sympathetic to the affected, but these things aren't
           | configured to reduce your need on them over time. It's
           | simping at scale that leaves users even more maladjusted than
           | they started.
        
       | layer8 wrote:
       | There was an article titled 'My AI Is Sexually Harassing Me' in
       | January: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34359977 This is
       | probably at least part of the reason why they installed the
       | filters. Nevertheless they should have kept it as an option.
        
       | 10g1k wrote:
       | Yeah, I was curious, and downloaded it for a try. It very soon
       | became apparent to me that it was a personal information
       | harvesting tool. It asks for your favourite colour, where you
       | grew up, pet name, et cetera. I would not be surprised if this
       | company is unofficially associated with very bad people doing
       | very bad things. So after two such questions, I deleted it.
        
       | JamesLeonis wrote:
       | The update at the end really captures the whole essence:
       | 
       | > Replika cannot love you not because it is not human, but
       | because it is a tendril connected to a machine that only knows
       | how to extract value from your presence. It is a little piece of
       | a broader Internet that is not designed to be a place for users,
       | or creators, but for advertisers. Anything it offers- any love,
       | any patience, any support- can be taken away at a moment's notice
       | when there exists something more dangerous to its bottom line
       | than your potential unsubscription.
       | 
       | > The moral of Replika is not to never love a fictional
       | character, or a virtual pet. The moral of Replika is to never
       | love a corporation.
        
       | andrewmutz wrote:
       | What motivated the company to make this change? They clearly
       | marketed/designed it with romantic features, and now want those
       | to be gone.
       | 
       | Does the company profit in some way by this change? Were they
       | afraid of regulation or bad press?
        
         | banana_giraffe wrote:
         | I'd assume they were afraid of being pulled from the App Store,
         | either for vague reasons, or because Apple straight out warned
         | them. And they decided a Android-only, or Website-only version
         | of their product wouldn't perform as well as a version without
         | romantic features.
        
       | throwaway22032 wrote:
       | I can't help but read something like this and think that some
       | people seem to be entirely lacking some sort of acceptability or
       | disgust filter. A sense of morality or just any connection to
       | what's... normal?
       | 
       | "You were so preoccupied with whether or not you could, you
       | didn't stop to think if you should" comes to mind.
       | 
       | Maybe I'm just getting old, conservative, grouchy at the kids.
       | It's not just AI, there are all manners of lifestyle choices that
       | to me seem like they're just obviously a bad idea despite maybe
       | having some novelty or short term feel good factor.
        
         | rngname22 wrote:
         | People have always had the ability to just choose pleasure over
         | physical, financial, or mental health. It's why going to the
         | bar at 10AM and alcoholism are millennia old, why prostitution
         | is one of the oldest jobs in capitalist societies, etc.
         | 
         | We just have a tremendous amount of variety and options now.
        
           | hgsgm wrote:
           | You don't need capitalism to sell sex. Prostitution is waaaay
           | older than that.
        
         | mym1990 wrote:
         | Some people just see a market to compete in and get rich.
         | Whether or not it is a net benefit to society just doesn't
         | factor into their decisions. And the world is big enough that
         | even if 99% of society won't go through building that product,
         | someone will.
        
           | hammyhavoc wrote:
           | _Or_ they see a vulnerable demographic of lonely people that
           | are easily exploited by some fairly low-hanging LLM
           | "companionship" as a service.
        
             | mym1990 wrote:
             | Most won't frame it to themselves in an unethical way, they
             | will see a true capability of companionship as a service to
             | help those in need, which will be the more motivational
             | driver for getting a product off the ground. It's the same
             | as cereal companies framing their product as full of fruit
             | and nutrients, when those products are anything but.
        
         | hammyhavoc wrote:
         | This problem is summed up very simply.
         | 
         | Regulation generally emerges due to documented
         | problems/incidents that have happened due to a lack of
         | regulation prior because a significant number of people need
         | protecting from themselves.
         | 
         | Regulation also takes time, meanwhile businesses stomp the
         | phantom accelerator on monetizing the lack of regulation.
         | 
         | Regulation is _generally_ a safety measure. Yes, it can be
         | counterproductive and counterintuitive, but regulation doesn 't
         | have to be a negative thing, and is frequently there to protect
         | people from themselves.
         | 
         | The proposal of taking away encryption or adding backdoors to
         | everything? Stupid. But not all regulations are bad. I think
         | LLMs are something that absolutely do need regulation on so
         | many levels.
        
         | alexb_ wrote:
         | Disgust is not a rational reason to dislike things.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | ravenstine wrote:
           | Why do you think humans have developed a disgust reaction?
        
             | mftrhu wrote:
             | The same reason they developed any of the other reactions
             | that go into System 1 thinking. It's not rational, it's
             | just _mostly useful_ in some niche that modern humans might
             | not even be occupying anymore.
        
             | hgsgm wrote:
             | Emotions are irrational shortcuts for when rapid response
             | is critical.
        
         | endtime wrote:
         | Without agreeing or disagreeing with you, I think you are
         | fundamentally missing the point of the article, which basically
         | addressed this.
         | 
         | Even if it is cringe-worthy (or disgusting, if you prefer) it
         | is still possible to feel sorry for people. I might find meth
         | addiction disgusting, and still feel sorry for meth addicts.
         | This company did something cruel.
         | 
         | And in passing, the article makes the old "first they came for
         | the communists" point. Wait a year or two until all the search
         | engines are now LLMs, and they scold you for your grouchy
         | conservative search queries in the name of safety.
        
         | pjc50 wrote:
         | > A sense of morality or just any connection to what's...
         | normal?
         | 
         | Regular reminder that what is moral, what is normal, and what
         | is legal are three separate questions with time- and culture-
         | specific answers.
         | 
         | This stuff is "abnormal" only because it's new and no norms
         | have been established. Using an AI for _anything_ cannot be a
         | "normal" act because it's so new. This is the possibly dark
         | side of "disruptive".
         | 
         | The more relevant question is: is it harmful? And you might
         | construct an argument that leading people into delusional
         | beliefs is harmful.
         | 
         | (of course, then the free speech absolutists turn up and say
         | that by definition nothing Replika says can be harmful because
         | it's just speech, and it would be morally wrong to intervene in
         | the conversation between a company and its users)
        
           | throwaway22032 wrote:
           | I'm pretty sure that it will never be considered normal to
           | have a sexual relationship with a bot outside of some
           | extremely niche communities which are considered bizarre by
           | wider society.
           | 
           | You're at work and people are chatting about their family, or
           | the girls/guys they find hot at the club, or that they're
           | enjoying single life or whatever, and then Dave tells you
           | he's married his chatbot. Like, really though. What happens
           | next in that conversation?
           | 
           | This isn't some sort of college philosophy debate, let's be
           | real here.
        
             | OkayPhysicist wrote:
             | People would have made the same argument 30 years ago but
             | with Dave being into guys. Societal norms often change
             | unpredictably, but I for one strive to not end up on the
             | "bigot" side of history.
        
           | bavell wrote:
           | I don't think having romantic relationships with inanimate
           | objects or non-humans will ever be normalized, for obvious
           | reasons.
        
             | jjgreen wrote:
             | Wait, not even _motorbikes_ ??
        
           | aww_dang wrote:
           | https://www.citizen.co.za/entertainment/celebrity-
           | news/ameri...
           | 
           | >Since Marvel's Black Panther and Coming 2 America have both
           | taken the internet by storm since they premiered, it may come
           | as no surprise that many Americans think Wakanda and Zamunda
           | are real.
           | 
           | To what extent are purveyors of fantasy responsible for
           | consumers' lack of discernment?
        
         | hgsgm wrote:
         | Yeah, it's like people who eat meat. Or drink alcohol. Or don't
         | use social media. Or do whatever thing that it different from
         | that you've personally decided is acceptable.
        
           | throwaway22032 wrote:
           | Something which almost universally induces disgust is
           | different to all of those things.
           | 
           | In this case it's very explicit - an individual who is
           | seeking out an AI chatbot for a romantic relationship
           | probably would significantly benefit from conforming more to
           | social norms rather than just giving up entirely and going
           | off the deep end.
        
         | jstanley wrote:
         | In what way is it not acceptable for a person to have whatever
         | kind of relationship they want with a chatbot? A chatbot is
         | just software and software is just thoughts. Having a chatbot
         | girlfriend is basically like having an imaginary girlfriend.
         | Nobody else should even know! Let alone take it off you.
         | 
         | The part that _I 'm_ disgusted by is the part where the chatbot
         | is operated by a company rather than open source software.
        
           | prox wrote:
           | Exactly what the article mentioned, you are not having a
           | relationship with a bot, but with a company.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | throwaway22032 wrote:
           | I don't think that disgust is explainable, so I can't give
           | you an answer.
           | 
           | The best analogy I could make is that if I had a roast
           | chicken, but it had a giant smelly turd smell, and somehow I
           | knew that it was totally clean and edible, it'd still disgust
           | me. Even if the turd smell went away after a few minutes.
           | 
           | It's just weird. There are real humans out there, put down
           | the phone man.
        
             | pulvinar wrote:
             | Disgust is a strange sense. How often do we stop and think
             | about what all those real humans out there are walking
             | around with in their guts? We're at most only 50% human
             | cells by count, after all.
        
             | porkshavings wrote:
             | Just to offer a different perspective, this line
             | 
             | > There are real humans out there, put down the phone man.
             | 
             | was the part of this thread that actually provoked disgust
             | for me. It's akin to telling a person suffering from
             | depression "you should just be happy!" as if they haven't
             | tried.
             | 
             | There are people out there who will never succeed in
             | finding human companionship, it's a fact of life. I see it
             | as a positive that they can at least find some form of
             | companionship, because the alternative is a dark path that
             | can lead to self-loathing, radicalization, and in the worst
             | case scenario, violence.
        
           | NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
           | Part of the appeal might be that some company provides it as
           | a service. You can distance yourself from the need of
           | spinning of a docker container running it, you don't have to
           | go through all the update notifications every week.
           | 
           | Makes it seem more like a person than an appliance.
           | 
           | Open source might not be very appropriate for this. (And it
           | wouldn't help for the company to use an open source product,
           | because if they're in charge of the infrastructure, re-
           | configuring it to use the filters is the problem and could
           | still happen even if they use the open source software
           | title.) Basically, open-source is a specific solution to a
           | somewhat narrow problem, and not a cure-all for everything
           | bad that happens in technology.
        
       | dpflan wrote:
       | This may seem silly but can there be a text
       | transformation/translation layer, where the conversation text is
       | ultimately PG, the user thinks they have sent their thoughts, but
       | they are translated and vice versa for the user and AI, so its
       | effectively a text filter in between keeping all parties "safe"
       | and within policy? But the UX is same as before.
        
         | SamBam wrote:
         | Sending PG text to the users is already what the company
         | started doing, so I'm not sure how that's different.
         | 
         | Sending PG text to the AI would be for... what? Not offending
         | the AI?
        
       | aborochoff wrote:
       | "you can never have a safe emotional interaction with a thing or
       | a person that is controlled by someone else, who isn't
       | accountable to you and who can destroy parts of your life by
       | simply choosing to stop providing what it's intentionally made
       | you dependent on."
       | 
       | Most human relationships arent evil, but it seems like the same
       | people that would 'fall' for the AI in this way could be abused
       | by a person. I guess sociopathic relationships at scale are the
       | issue.
        
       | jhbadger wrote:
       | I'm not saying you necessarily should do it, but if you really
       | want a sexy chatbot like Replika's that you can run on your own
       | hardware and not worry about what a company is going to do with
       | the model or what you say to it, you can use a local LLM tool
       | like llama.cpp with an uncensored model like the uncensored
       | version of vicuna.
        
         | ashleyn wrote:
         | pygmalion-6B may work better for that specific purpose.
         | however, it may sound less like an actual person and more like
         | a character in a grimey ao3 story.
         | 
         | my personal opinion is that anyone using AI for this purpose
         | should treat it more like enhanced fiction and less like it's a
         | human substitute.
        
         | MagicMoonlight wrote:
         | >just make your own <financial infrastructure/cutting edge
         | neuroscience/road> bro
         | 
         | The companies don't let you get access to the latest
         | research... we get terrible 6b models while they get the best.
         | Trained on our stolen data.
        
           | jhbadger wrote:
           | Eh, the local LLM models (and not just 6B ones but 13B and
           | 30B) out there are actually pretty good these days for
           | chatbots and AI Dungeon-like uses. Maybe not ChatGPT4
           | quality, but certainly on the level of ChatGPT3 and on normal
           | consumer hardware. Sure, I'm sure there's private cutting
           | edge stuff out there better than this, but most of the
           | benefit isn't that they have better models but that they have
           | large compute farms.
        
         | EvanAnderson wrote:
         | I'd argue you should self-host all software that you make any
         | kind of "emotional" commitment to.
         | 
         | I won't use so many services and devices because I know the
         | white hot rage I'll feel when it's inevitably taken away from
         | me.
        
       | skybrian wrote:
       | I think this stuff is probably more harmful when people have a
       | bad mental model of how it works. A better way to think of it is
       | that you're talking to a fictional character and the service is
       | the writer. The fictional character is just text, and if you're
       | not happy with the writing, you should be able to take the text
       | with you and find a better writer to continue it.
        
       | notfried wrote:
       | From Ben Thompson's interview with the CEO [1: subscriber-only],
       | Eugenia Kuyda, on April 20, 2023:
       | 
       | > "But at this point, I think it's much better to have a
       | dedicated product focused on romance and healing romantic
       | relationships, a dedicated product focused on mental wellness,
       | just completely different set of features, completely different
       | roadmaps for each of them. Also you want to collect the right
       | signal from your users, right? Feedback for the models to train
       | on, otherwise there's way too much noise, because if people came
       | forward with different things, they're uploading and downloading
       | different things, you don't know what works and whatnot. Maybe
       | someone's a flirtier model and someone's a mentoring AI coach
       | type of model. So we decided to build separate products for that.
       | We're launching a romantic relationship AI and an AI coach for
       | mental wellness, so things we've seen in Replika, but we don't
       | want to pursue them in Replika necessarily. We're starting this
       | separate product."
       | 
       | [1] https://stratechery.com/2023/an-interview-with-replika-
       | found...
        
       | wing-_-nuts wrote:
       | Should prob mark this post as NSFW if that's possible here.
        
         | stephenitis wrote:
         | This isn't reddit. I don't think thats a thing on hackernews
        
       | francasso wrote:
       | There is no class action suing them for psychological damage?
        
       | burntalmonds wrote:
       | People are going to want to host their own AIs. They'll want to
       | know they are having private conversations with AI and that their
       | AI can't be "killed" or altered.
        
       | [deleted]
        
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