[HN Gopher] The effect of high-top and low-top shoes on ankle in...
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The effect of high-top and low-top shoes on ankle inversion
kinematics
Author : luu
Score : 44 points
Date : 2023-04-30 16:04 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
| fpoling wrote:
| > 13 physical education students
|
| Honestly I do not see how such study can lead to any conclusion
| besides that more studies are necessary. The problem is not even
| the low N, but extreme bias of participant selection. I.e. the
| conclusion that high-ankle could be worse is only applies to
| students of physical educations. One just cannot generalize it
| beyond the given group.
| freeone3000 wrote:
| It's _feet_ , not a subjective experience survey. Unless you
| have reason to believe that their ankles work differently than
| other people's.
| russellbeattie wrote:
| When I was in high school 30 years ago I switched to low top
| cross trainer sneakers (Bo Jackson was big then) because high
| tops seemed to cause me sprained ankles constantly. High tops
| never gave me any stability, and in my opinion acted as a lever
| on my ankle, the way you'd put something tall under a long board
| if you wanted to step on it and snap it in half. With low tops,
| my ankle would bend/roll naturally and though it might hurt, it
| didn't sprain my tendon. I've always assumed my ankles were just
| weird.
| engineer_22 wrote:
| From the conclusion:
|
| "These findings provide preliminary evidence suggesting that a
| smaller muscular effort (a delayed pre-activation timing and
| decreased amplitude of evertor muscle activity) and changed
| proprioceptive feedback may result from wearing high-top shoes,
| and this might be detrimental to establishing and maintaining
| functional ankle joint stability in ankle strain situations."
|
| I disagree that using lower muscular effort means the joint is
| less stable. I would conclude the opposite, that if it takes less
| effort to maintain balance, the ankle is more stable. Ergo, high
| tops are more supportive.
| pharmakom wrote:
| The current trend of super high stack running shoes (38mm) is
| interesting to see. Wouldnt be surprised to see mass rolled
| ankles, planar fasciitis, etc. in amateur runners over the next
| few years. Stop messing with your body's existing functionality!
| cfeduke wrote:
| Though its a current trend, these high stack running shoes have
| been around for over a decade. My running group has oscillated
| between this style of shoe (Hoka), NB, Brooks, and minimalist
| shoes. I've ran over 1,000 miles in all the major brands, the
| Hokas are really comfortable. I've also had severe rolled
| ankles because I primarily run trails. I'd say my last injury
| in Hokas on trail was on par with a similar injury using
| Merrell/Vibram sole minimalist shoes. I haven't had an IT band
| injury recurrence in the Hokas yet and I am approaching over 2K
| miles between street and trail running so as far as that goes
| I'm happy with them. (As any runner who is addicted to running
| knows, IT band injuries are the absolute worst and its
| important to do everything you can do to avoid them, except of
| course running.)
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| I have observed (anecdotally) an increase in calf/achilles pain
| and knee pain reports in high school runners transitioning
| between XC and track meets in which they're wearing ultra-
| minimalistic spikes with negligible - often _negative!_ - heel-
| toe drop, and training in high-stack "cloud shoes" with
| enormous amounts of exotic super-cushioning foam.
|
| I think this is particularly unhelpful when marketing the same
| shoe design that has essentially no material under the instep
| or heel to elites who have the endurance and form to be poised
| on their toes with negligible heel contact during an entire 10k
| to 15-year-olds who will start off with grand ambitions and
| then be slogging it in for the latter two laps of the 1600..
|
| I definitely agree that runners using these "maximalist" shoes
| exclusively are likely to experience more foot injuries if they
| ever need to transition away from them. My coaches (from as far
| back as...two decades ago, yikes) had us do strides on the
| football field barefoot, as well as occasional speed workouts
| on the track in spikes or spike flats to ensure that we were
| not only conditioning our major leg muscle groups but also
| smaller muscles and ligaments in the feet. If you only ever
| train to go straight forward with even, highly cushioned
| footfalls, and step in a pothole or on a rock when your muscles
| are at their weakest, it's not good.
|
| That said, for long, slow, distance days, I love me some cloud
| shoes. I just make sure to switch them up with minimalist flats
| for speed work and tempos once in a while, and to get some
| barefoot strides in when I have access to good grass.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| I run half-marathons on $55 New Balance short-tops ("regular
| sneakers"). I don't even know what a cloud shoe is?
| cfeduke wrote:
| Hokas, not sure if there are any copycat competitors in the
| space, there probably are.
| pharmakom wrote:
| The whole market has followed Hokas lead. If that's not
| your jam, there are few options left.
| pharmakom wrote:
| Cloud shoes are shoes with a very high level of cushion
| (38mm is race legal limit) and support. Some have carbon
| fibre plates for extra bounce. Popular models from Saucony,
| On, Hoka, Nike, etc. It is now estimated that majority of
| amateur marathon runners are wearing them. This is in stark
| contrast to 15 years ago when minimalist and lightweight
| racing flats were in vogue (typically around 20mm stack for
| endurance events).
|
| If you walk into a runnning shop now, you are probably
| leaving with a pair of cloud shoes - that's all some shops
| sell.
| alistairSH wrote:
| Nike's version: https://media.wired.co.uk/photos/606d9e5251
| 13453af5734514/ma...
|
| If you Google Alphafly, Vaporfly, and Kipchoge, you'll get
| all sorts of analysis on this type of shoe.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Can they run kubernetes?
| cafard wrote:
| An acquaintance liked Hokas to begin with, but found that they
| compressed unevenly and were not so stable then.
| ortusdux wrote:
| This study was reciently highlighted in the Esquire story "The
| Rise and Fall of the High-Top Sneaker"
|
| https://www.esquire.com/style/mens-fashion/a55587/high-top-s...
|
| "In 2008, Kobe Bryant, already in the league 12 years, decided
| for the fourth shoe in his Nike Zoom Kobe line, he wanted
| something different. "We got around to his next shoe, just
| talking future ideas and concepts, and he point-blank said, 'I
| want the lowest, lightest-weight basketball shoe ever,'" said
| Eric Avar, one of Nike's superstar sneaker designers, in a video
| interview. "'I want to prove to people that you can wear a low-
| top basketball shoe.'"
|
| "The official story, which feels sort of like a calm monologue in
| an ad, is that Kobe, though he attended high school just outside
| of Philadelphia, was mostly raised in Italy, and was passionate
| about soccer. Kobe noticed that soccer players, aside from the
| jumping unique to basketball, play in a fairly similar way to
| basketball players: lots of quick changes in direction, a lot of
| cutting, variation between sprinting and slower speeds, a need to
| suddenly spring in one direction or another. And when was the
| last time you saw a high-top soccer cleat? Is it possible that
| high-tops aren't necessary for basketball, either?"
| [deleted]
| pupppet wrote:
| Decades of high-tops and we didn't need them, just goes to show
| these sneaker companies really have no idea what's best for the
| customer, as long as they sell.
| wilsynet wrote:
| Same with nutrition industry. Decades of saying eggs are bad
| for your cholesterol, but no science to back it up.
| jack_pp wrote:
| More plates more dates got his labs done and then went on a
| diet that was high in eggs and noticed within a month that
| his cholesterol jumped significantly. I believe it is
| genetic
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| NFL cleats seem to vary between sneaker and high-top forms.
| appleiigs wrote:
| In my experience, the high-top add protection from being
| stepped on by other players who are wearing cleats. Useful
| for people who are pushing each other (NFL linemen, rugby
| scrums). Not for protection against ankle twists.
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| that is a great point!
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| > _And when was the last time you saw a high-top soccer cleat?_
|
| Uh, last night, in our men's league? Just about every vendor of
| soccer boots has high-top variants of all their major models,
| it's up to player preference.
|
| EG: https://www.nike.com/w/soccer-high-top-
| shoes-1gdj0z6lqy0zy7o...
|
| They're more like socks or an elastic collar that merge into
| the tongue/upper. Some say that the slight compression makes
| them feel better supported, but like elastic kinesio tape on
| the skin, it's not a mechanical prohibition, more
| psychological. Some say they're better at keeping you from
| getting stripped out of the shoe if someone steps on your foot,
| can't really deny that. And some say they avoid awkward bounces
| when the ball hits high on the instep near the sharp cut-off
| between instead of tapering in, but you already have a
| malleolus andd shin guard; maybe don't kick the ball there?
|
| It's definitely not a mechanical prevention of ankle flex like
| ski boot or calf-height hiking boot.
| crazygringo wrote:
| I wouldn't call any of those high tops.
|
| Like you say, they're more like a sock lining that sticks
| out. High tops are when the main shoe material extends
| upwards for "ankle support", like you described in your last
| sentence.
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| My daughter swears by the Zoom Mercurials, both the turf
| and grass versions. She says they're the most comfortable
| soccer boots she's ever worn and she feels like she can run
| faster in them - so yeah, it's a psychological thing, not
| an ankle protection thing.
| canadianfella wrote:
| [dead]
| dewclin wrote:
| > And when was the last time you saw a high-top soccer cleat?
|
| Interestingly (?) early football boots were very much ankle-
| length [1], and this style continued well into the 1950's [2].
|
| [1] https://www.footy-boots.com/football-boots-history/
|
| [2] https://www.kraveantiques.co.uk/products/Nailed-Stud-
| Footbal...
| rollcat wrote:
| I skate high-top shoes because they actually protect my ankles
| from being hit by the board. I only twisted my ankle once, but
| the board can hit it from the side a dozen times per session.
| jbandela1 wrote:
| > And when was the last time you saw a high-top soccer cleat?
|
| The problem with that type of logic, is that in soccer, you
| probably need maximum ankle range of motion to help with ball
| control and to aim the soccer ball without telegraphing it by
| changing your whole leg angle.
|
| Thus, you may give up some ankle protection to increase your
| ankle freedom.
|
| In basketball, you do not need that kind of foot control.
| Therefore, you should probably sacrifice some ankle freedom for
| more ankle protection.
| derekp7 wrote:
| But you then increase the weight of the shoe. Which affects
| running and, more importantly, jumping.
| klyrs wrote:
| I refuse to believe that a 200+lb athlete's jumping is
| significantly impacted by a few ounces of extra weight in
| their shoe. I could believe that rigidity in fabric around
| the ankle has an impact.
| jackmott42 wrote:
| There is a well understood relationship between running
| economy and small changes in shoe weight which lead to
| important changes. So even if shoe weight had no important
| impact on jumping performance it will save significant
| energy over the course of a game to shave even grams off of
| a shoe.
|
| The reason for this is running involves accelerating the
| foot, then decelerating it, over and over, and the shoe is
| at the end of that pendulum motion. Not to mention lifting
| it against gravity as well.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| When you're running over 2 miles a game, ounces count.
| Every step you take is you lifting that extra weight in the
| shoe. Let's say you're 6'3" and you run 2.54 miles a game
| at a jogging pace. That's 4559 steps. If your shoe weighs
| 2.5 ounces more, then you've lifted over 700 additional
| pounds by the end of a game. All additional weight is going
| to take its toll.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| Jumping, maybe not; for running, the shoe is a weight at
| the end of an arm that needs to be accelerated
| consistently.
|
| Even if it's mostly psychological, you can absolutely feel
| the difference with a lighter shoe.
| yodon wrote:
| Is there any similar work on hiking boots?
| DiffEq wrote:
| If one has a trail then minimalist hiking shoes or shoes in
| general are fine. If no trail...boots are my preference. Plus a
| good set are good for winter hiking to where you can add
| crampons if you need.
| ghaff wrote:
| Winter foot gear has changed a lot. When I started it was
| double layer end of story/end of discussion so you basically
| has either Sorels or plastics (or mouse boots for really old
| school).
|
| These days I mostly use fairly cheap single layer insulated
| boots with some variant of microspikes. Still have plastics
| with step-ins. Have never bought into the newer generation of
| high-end single layer which seem to be the non-expedition
| norm these days.
| pelagic_sky wrote:
| Few years ago I moved to approach shoes for all
| hiking/backpacking. I prefer using ultralight approach shoes
| for everything (short, long, steep, multi-day), unless there is
| snow and then I use GTX versions with trail running gaiters to
| keep the show out.
| pharmakom wrote:
| Thru hikers have been moving to low stack trail running shoes
| for a while. They dry faster and are more stable. I haven't
| seen any hard data on the pros / cons, however.
| ghaff wrote:
| I have a pair of custom-made heavy-duty (and heavy) hiking
| boots I use for backpacking and other strenuous hiking. But I
| wear "trail shoes" a lot these days. I'm not sure how
| convinced I am for a lot of weekend-to-weekend stuff that
| high top lighter-weight boots are a major improvement given
| equivalent soles.
| fellowniusmonk wrote:
| The problem with a lot of hiking shoes is that they are
| still rather tall like tennis shoes, when hiking I'm not
| "pounding the pavement", I want something puncture
| resistant with a low center of balance and grip or tread
| around the edges for gravel and loose rock and decent tox
| box protection (since I have the bad habit of shuffling at
| the end of a long day and don't want to stub my toe.)
| bjtitus wrote:
| The higher the top, the less debris ends up falling into
| the shoe, though. Of course, you could just strap on a
| gaiter instead as most thru-hikers do.
| Kaibeezy wrote:
| Heavily corroborated in this Wirecutter hiking boot review
| (https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-hiking-
| boots...), but NOT in the article... in the comments. One of
| the clearest readings I have ever seen on marketing versus
| experience. Truly eye-opening.
|
| Regular people do it. Journalists do it. And AI does it up the
| wazoo. We are all doomed.
|
| Example:
|
| _This article is like a guide for choosing the best flip phone
| with a full keyboard. The entire category is obsolete. The
| authors are simply parroting marketing myths from twenty years
| ago. Like an AI chatbot, the writing appears thorough, but they
| did NOT do their research by talking to human hikers._
|
| _They looked at catalogs of products instead of examining a
| task and finding the best tool for it._
|
| _Here 's the real story: No experienced hikers use waterproof
| boots except in deep snow where insulation and a high top is
| necessary. They use trail runners. Why? Because gore tex
| membranes lead to sweaty feet, which causes blisters and damp
| boots the next day ('waterproof' boots do get wet but take
| forever to dry out). Boots are heavy and clunky, encouraging a
| stompy, imprecise style that results in more slips, twists and
| jerks in each stride._
|
| _Boots are sold because uninformed consumers demand them.
| Boots match the aesthetic of hiking._
|
| _Ankle support is a complete myth. When you roll your ankle,
| an inch of extra fabric is not going to resist the full
| leverage of your body and protect your foot. What helps is a
| more sensitive shoe that avoids the ankle roll in the first
| place, and allows a nimble correction if it starts rolling._
|
| _In 2023, ALL experienced hikers wear trail runners unless the
| snow is deep._
| alistairSH wrote:
| Sounds about right. Short hikes, I do in trail runners.
| Medium hikes, I do in approach shoes. I only wear boots if
| I'm backpacking (and that's mostly habit) or working with
| trail tools (Macleod, ax, etc)
| shepardrtc wrote:
| I've used all three hiking and I absolutely prefer trail
| runners. I only use waterproof shoes if I'm going in the snow
| and even then I still don't like it.
| gumby wrote:
| The feature of the high top (non-snow) boots I like is the
| sole/footbed rigidity. I don't want a flexible sole in the
| backcountry, and especially not when scrambling.
| Unfortunately the weight is a (literal) drag in a long
| through hike. I'd be willing to use a "hiking shoe" if it had
| a rigid foot.
|
| Ironically my beloved chacos have a very stiff sole; with the
| toe strap they give me the same traction on irregular terrain
| and same small-rock sole protection that I get with my clunky
| boots. I did a five day trip with them in the Desolation
| Wilderness and it was pretty good, except of course as a
| sandal I got sharp crud _over_ the sole. Also they are pretty
| heavy for sandals.
|
| It seems like the high top winter boots have less stiff
| soles. If it's not too cold and I want to make distance I
| have used my leather summer boots with the snowshoes.
|
| It's hard to do a lot of A/B testing in these cases as you
| can't do a five day through hike every weekend.
| apelapan wrote:
| Someone on the internet says that. While I, also a person on
| the internet, prefer boots for hiking and find that most
| people I meet on hikes are also wearing boots of various
| kinds.
|
| I do bring a pair of "trail sneakers" to change into whenever
| I put down the heavy backpack. They are much better for
| walking, but I don't like them when carrying.
| Kaibeezy wrote:
| I supplied one example of what was a steady drumbeat
| through many comments, many of which provided meaningful
| facts and analysis. Yes, of course, internet people say
| whatever. But you can probably sense when the reliability
| goes up and down, and I sensed this info seemed good enough
| to mention. Have a look, maybe.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| > Ankle support is a complete myth
|
| I remember being told this (in 2000?) by one of the sales
| people in the shoe department at REI so it was being said at
| least for the last 23 years. A rigid sole is what he said was
| most important for stability.
| fpoling wrote:
| Anecdotally the worst leg injury during hiking I heard off
| was from a guy in a very expensive hiking boots. Basically he
| slipped and his foot stuck between two stones while the body
| continued to move resulting in a broken bone. If he would
| wear a low ankle in the worst case he would twisted the
| ankle, but most likely he would get just a bruise from the
| ankle impacting the stones.
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