[HN Gopher] New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in Ne...
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New York to Ban Natural Gas, Including Stoves, in New Buildings
Author : ajay-d
Score : 37 points
Date : 2023-04-28 19:30 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| someonehere wrote:
| Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned:
| https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo...
|
| California's electric grid is in horrendous shape. We can barely
| keep the power on in the summertime, especially when wildfires
| happen. When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in
| my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?
| jrockway wrote:
| A bigger problem is getting a feed to your house that can
| handle your hot water heater, stove, washing machine, and
| electric car charging all at once. That's rather impractical in
| some areas, so there is some work to coordinate between the
| appliances so they can share a smaller feed. The way some
| stoves are participating is that they charge a battery at
| relatively low current all the time, and then cook from the
| battery at high current when the half-hour a day that you cook
| comes. That way you don't need a special circuit, and can cook
| while your hot water heater or washing machine is running. The
| added benefit is that your stove is now a UPS basically, so you
| can cook while the power's out. (I believe some can share power
| with other appliances, i.e. keep your refrigerator running for
| a while.)
|
| I have a gas range and it doesn't work when the electricity is
| off. If that's your contingency plan, check that a safety valve
| doesn't close when power is lost.
| SigmundA wrote:
| Worst case at 240v :
|
| Electric hot water heater = 20 amps
|
| Electric stove = 50 amps all burners on and oven
|
| Washing machine = 15 amps
|
| Car charger = 50 amps
|
| Total = 135 amps
|
| Standard residential service in the US = 200 amps split phase
| @ 240v
|
| Whats the problem?
| ou8_1_2 wrote:
| All the other 15 amp circuits people take for granted for
| things like lights, the clothes dryer and the heat/cooling
| system you left off your list (heat pump + air handler +
| emergency heat coils)...
|
| Add in the 80% rule and 200amps doesn't go as far as one
| might hope in a gas free-house.
| orra wrote:
| > If that's your contingency plan, check that a safety valve
| doesn't close when power is lost.
|
| And for good reason. Gas cookers require ventilation, to
| prevent carbon monoxide build up. An electric extractor fan
| won't work during a power cut.
| im3w1l wrote:
| Well you could open a window.
| 71a54xd wrote:
| The irony is most of the industrial energy used in NYC to spin
| the pumps and fans in HVAC and thermal energy provided for
| heating water in boilers / air in NYC comes from steam generation
| plants. I used to live next to one near w58th street. For those
| who don't know, these massive facilities as large as power plants
| (some historically protected) run on natural gas!
|
| Although, it did boggle the mind how my luxury 2br apt (built in
| 2018) had a gas stove with only a small "suck" vent (return air
| of sorts that just vents to the roof)in each bathroom. If I ran
| the stove too long I'd set the fire alarm off from carbon
| monoxide and particulate in the air. So I'm actually a big
| proponent of doing this for indoor air quality.
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| SF also has steam generation downtown. I learned about it 5
| days ago here on HN:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35676878
| oakwhiz wrote:
| If buildings were required by code to have a more "fume
| hood"-like setup for capturing exhaust (with supply and return
| paths maintaining flow) then it would lead to better indoor air
| quality. As a bonus this is even a good idea anyway for
| electric stoves since it keeps any smells and smoke from
| leaving the kitchen area.
| john_shafthair wrote:
| They ARE required by code and have been for years. Parent's
| "luxury" apartment was not built to code. Probably one of
| those illegal NYC apartments where you tear open the walls
| and there's a whole other furnished room inside that isn't
| shown on the blueprints.
| oakwhiz wrote:
| Is there a possibility that very old buildings are
| grandfathered in with existing ducts? Maybe they should be
| required to upgrade that.
| john_shafthair wrote:
| It's very possible, and might be impossible to upgrade a
| large multi unit building. In most jurisdictions a large
| renovation would force you to upgrade such things. In
| this case I would assume simply disallowing a gas stove
| without proper venting. Though I suspect the permitting
| process in NYC resembles something out of The Sopranos,
| assuming the proper permits were obtained.
| oakwhiz wrote:
| If the videos that Louis Rossmann makes discussing New
| York's government mirror others' experiences, you are
| probably right.
| stathibus wrote:
| Everyone is worked up about losing their gas stove, but natural
| gas heating is far more reliable and efficient than any electric
| option right now. This will create a lot of issues until heat
| pumps catch up. Northern New York is very cold.
| tombert wrote:
| Can't modern heat pumps work even in crazy cold climates now? I
| seem to remember seeing that some are rated for -20F nowadays.
| stathibus wrote:
| Some are, and some of those even live up to their temperature
| rating, but they are subject to wind chill and can also fail
| due to ice and snow build-up, so its not as good as it
| sounds.
| tamaharbor wrote:
| What is the backup, resistance heating?
| john_shafthair wrote:
| Electric resistance heat is super inefficient. That's why
| it's often referred to as "emergency heat".
|
| Ironically the best combo is a heat pump + natural gas
| furnace as a backup. Best of both worlds. But here we are
| making those illegal so we can pretend to save the
| planet.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| > Electric resistance heat is super inefficient. That's
| why it's often referred to as "emergency heat".
|
| Yes, which is why it only kicks in when the heat pump
| isn't enough. Which is not most of the year!
| rayiner wrote:
| The problem is when it kicks in for everyone in the
| neighborhood at the same time on an especially cold night
| and causes a brown out. (Happened to me this winter.)
| osigurdson wrote:
| >> Electric resistance heat is super inefficient
|
| I know what you mean but it is actually nearly 100%
| efficient. The inefficient part is converting high
| entropy heat to low entropy electricity.
| CydeWeys wrote:
| > Ironically the best combo is a heat pump + natural gas
| furnace as a backup. Best of both worlds. But here we are
| making those illegal so we can pretend to save the
| planet.
|
| How does this work in practice though? The natural gas
| distribution lines don't pay for themselves. If they're
| only gonna be used in emergencies then they'll be crazy
| expensive. You have a lot of money by not having to run
| natural gas through a neighborhood at all.
|
| A more realistic backup in these types of places (which
| is used widely in the northeast) is heating fuel oil in a
| tank.
| john_shafthair wrote:
| I agree with everything you said except there has been a
| war on heating oil since before this tiff with natural
| gas. So even suggesting that is anathema because it would
| be career suicide for the politicians pushing this. You
| can certainly use an oil furnace as a second stage,
| though oil is more often used as a boiler for steam or
| hydronic.
| john_shafthair wrote:
| Not when the power's out for days - as often happens in
| winter storms.
|
| You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas
| furnace or boiler off a little camping generator for a week
| or even better a natural gas whole house unit in perpetuity.
|
| So you don't, you know, freeze to death.
| smileysteve wrote:
| If you take the investment that is the infrastructure for
| gas lines (all underground) and do similar for most
| electricity then storms don't take out electricity and
| people don't die.
|
| Best of all, the total investment and maintenance actually
| decreases.
| tomohawk wrote:
| How about you get that done first, prove that its at
| least as reliable, and then start banning things?
| [deleted]
| reisse wrote:
| I lived in a building with heat pumps in Europe. In colder
| climate, they're loud. As in, LOUD. It's likely fine when you
| can install the external module somewhere on the roof (poor
| birds though), but in many apartment buildings you can only
| put it on the outer walls, and you can clearly hear the sound
| inside the flat. Internal modules that cycle air are also
| noisy, though less.
|
| I'm glad to pay the premium for silent heating.
| cwillu wrote:
| My city was only a couple degrees short of -40 this last
| winter.
| rayiner wrote:
| And NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being banned
| was fake outrage: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-
| facts-and-stra....
| lesuorac wrote:
| > And NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being
| banned was fake outrage:
| https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-stra...
|
| No they didn't.
|
| > MARTINEZ: Look, Jeff and Lisa, I don't know what's going to
| happen with gas stoves.
|
| Also NPR was talking about the Federal government. While the
| article above is talking about the New York _State_ government.
| rayiner wrote:
| Why are you ignoring the title and first paragraph?
|
| > The facts and strategy behind the outrage over rumors of a
| ban on gas stoves
|
| > The conservative media was in uproar last week over
| speculation that the federal government planned to ban gas
| cooking stoves and possibly seize them.
|
| The aim is clearly to dismiss the concern as manufactured
| outrage--note the words "strategy," "speculation," and
| "outrage"--rather than a concern about something that may
| happen because it's an aim liberals definitely have.
| john_shafthair wrote:
| Literally the first sentence of their rebuttal admits it's
| all performative:
|
| > Well, the risk for the environment, _it 's more about what
| gas stoves have come to represent._ And that's the practice
| of burning natural gas in homes.
| lesuorac wrote:
| Stay on topic champ.
|
| rayiner's comment is that NPR told him "the possibility of
| gas stoves being banned was fake outrage".
|
| Whether or not gas stoves _should_ be banned is irrelevant.
| NPR clearly stated that they could become banned and that
| they don't know if they will.
| aaron695 wrote:
| [dead]
| sourcecodeplz wrote:
| One can always downgrade to those 60L? gas canisters that you
| take to the center and they give you a full one. My grandma still
| uses one.
| cmpalmer52 wrote:
| I write software for natural gas utility management and
| maintenance. Between this and coding AIs, I'm glad I'm
| approaching retirement age.
|
| Of course, new government regulations (not outright bans) are a
| lot of what drives the need for our software.
| gainda wrote:
| "In addition to the environmental concerns raised by such
| widespread use of natural gas, some health experts have also
| argued that using it in the home, especially when cooking, may
| pose a health risk to consumers."
|
| Spending a day walking around NYC is probably worse for my health
| than years of gas stove usage. Every time I leave the city I feel
| like I need a shower from all the grime and who knows what I feel
| caked on me.
| lesuorac wrote:
| The article is about a ban from the State not the City so I'm
| not too sure why the cleanliness of NYC matters.
| john_shafthair wrote:
| [flagged]
| tomohawk wrote:
| New York, Illinois, California - the top 3 states people are
| moving out of.
| BeFlatXIII wrote:
| How soon until "new" homes come with a blank space for the new
| owner to install an aftermarket stove that can cook food
| properly?
| mkinsella wrote:
| Agreed. An induction cooktop and electric stove are far
| superior to gas.
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(page generated 2023-04-28 23:01 UTC)