[HN Gopher] How Paris Is Taking Back Its Streets from Cars
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How Paris Is Taking Back Its Streets from Cars
Author : jseliger
Score : 51 points
Date : 2023-04-28 16:32 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.distilled.earth)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.distilled.earth)
| julienreszka wrote:
| I visit Paris regularly for business and it's getting worse every
| day don't believe the hype, it's transforming into and dystopian
| hellhole
| tmp20230324 wrote:
| Would you mind expounding on how it's getting worse? I'm not
| questioning that it is not, but most of what I hear about Paris
| reduce car traffic seems to be positive, and I'd like to hear
| more about your view point. Are commute times going up
| considerably? Are commutes less enjoyable? Is there more
| congestion of people (crowds) or bicycles, that has come in
| since the car reduction? Or is it something else that I never
| would've guessed? I really would be interested in hearing your
| point of view.
| [deleted]
| eigenspace wrote:
| Really impressive how quickly they've done this. I'm sure there's
| been lots of growing pains, but I hope they can keep it up.
| baud147258 wrote:
| Considering there's been plans to reduce cars in Paris since at
| least Delanoe's time in office, so since 2001, I don't think
| it's been going that quickly; though for sure the city did use
| the reduction in car traffic during the Covid lockdown to do
| some more work on bike/bus lanes.
| [deleted]
| decross wrote:
| My hunch is that in the first picture there was at least one
| person inside each car and they seemed to be going to work. In
| the second picture, there are a lot less people and they are
| definitely not going to work. Are they getting rid of people and
| jobs?
| epistasis wrote:
| Weird hunches....
|
| How do you know what the people in cars are doing? How do you
| know what the people are doing?
|
| Cars take tons of space, and traffic means that they take it up
| for longer, and use the space even less efficiently. Cars are
| an inherently space-inefficient transport mechanism. Replacing
| cars with bikes improves street throughput several fold,
| removing that traffic. Removing cars mean that the same
| physical street can serve the transportation needs of more
| people, and let them travel more quickly.
|
| We have to start to realize that the failures of car
| infrastructure result in less jobs, less leisure time, less
| living.
| stackedinserter wrote:
| > Cars are an inherently space-inefficient transport
|
| It is time efficient and convenient though.
|
| > We have to start to realize that the failures of car
| infrastructure result in less jobs, less leisure time, less
| living.
|
| How come? Having a car, I can reach tons of places in ~40km
| radius, without planning ahead too much, in any season. I
| would have to chop significant portion of my life if I were
| not able to drive anymore.
| Equadex wrote:
| That only works for the select few, not for the many. In
| dense cities it falls apart.
| epistasis wrote:
| There are only certain medium size densities for which cars
| work. They are only convenient and time-efficient for a
| very small range of traffic, and only at very low density
| of interesting places to go. Look at how much space is
| devoted to parking on a satellite view of any sort of
| suburban shopping center, and you'll see why cars only work
| for low density of interesting places to go.
|
| You seem to enjoy the number of places that you can reach
| in a car. But if the destinations are man-made places of
| interest, such as businesses, friends, shops, services, and
| social meeting places then cars' space inefficiency limit
| how many of those you can visit. Because each has to spend
| a massive amount of space on parking. And transport has a
| failure mode of creating traffic jams whenever demand for a
| certain route tips over a critics point, causing a phase
| change from free flowing traffic to a traffic jam, that can
| only be cleared by long periods of far lower number of
| cars.
|
| With trains and bikes and walkable cities, you can achieve
| far far higher densities of interesting destinations, with
| a <40minute travel time. There is really no comparison.
| Swenrekcah wrote:
| I'm curious why you would think people in the first picture are
| going to/from work but not in the second.
| eigenspace wrote:
| 1) Those photos are probably taken at different times of day,
| so the destinations can differ a lot
|
| 2) The second photo may have less people in it, but it's a
| *much* more zoomed in perspective. It's pretty clearly at least
| a higher density of people.
|
| 3) What makes you think these people aren't going to work?
| tzs wrote:
| 1) Assuming that this is a one-way street for cars and the
| direction has not changed between the two pictures, it does
| seem approximately the same time of day based on the shadow
| angles.
|
| But that doesn't tell us anything about day of week which
| could be a huge factor.
|
| 2) Assuming at least one person per vehicle, and assuming
| that the first stories of the buildings are about the same
| height in both photos in order to compare scales between the
| photos, the first seems to have a higher density of people.
| mden wrote:
| 4) Throughput is probably a better metric than density and
| that's hard to guess from static images.
| comte7092 wrote:
| Clearly, if you aren't in a car, you aren't a serious person
| doing serious, important things. /s
| Pearse wrote:
| In the video he specificly says that that road was reduced from
| 6 lanes to one to make room for bikes.
| cwoolfe wrote:
| During the same time period, working from home probably
| increased due to COVID
| 64operator wrote:
| Is this another walkable 15 minute cities PR puff piece? How
| exciting and fresh.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| The goal is to become dependent on gov services in some kind of
| a socialist nightmare version of Venezuela. With so much crime
| in cities, unable to get a CCW permit, there is no way to ride
| public transportation here in USA without jeapardizing personal
| safety. Not to mention terribly run public transport with lazy
| employees that cannot be fired, trains/busses constantly
| running late, filthy stations and coaches, etc.
|
| Public-transportation is a religion.
| ShadowBanThis01 wrote:
| This may work in a traditional city like Paris; but selling this
| vision in L.A. is a tiresome and offensive ruse to line
| developers' pockets by deleting parking requirements from
| building projects, and other handouts that reduce the quality of
| life for existing residents by shifting burdens onto them without
| commensurate rewards.
| mchusma wrote:
| I do think removing parking restrictions is hugely beneficial
| for communities (allowing developers to add more or less as
| they see appropriate for their situation). I'd recommend
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_Cost_of_Free_Parking for
| some more background here.
|
| Congestion pricing is another thing that really does overall
| improve the quality of life.
|
| The problem with offering free public parking or trying to
| force developers to make free parking is that it is not free
| for the community at large.
|
| My own parents (who I love) live by the beach in LA, and they
| have 3 cars for 2 people. The only reason they do this is
| because parking on the street is free. Parking is crowded, and
| 1-2 cars can't park at the beach because my parents are taking
| 1-2 slots they could have. And this is multiplied across the
| whole community.
|
| I also am against parking maximums, which are starting to pop
| up. People should be able to decide what is the right amount of
| parking for their home or business.
| contingencies wrote:
| I lived in LA for a year around 2010. I don't drive. LA has
| some amazing qualities for cycling: (1) Really damn wide
| streets. (2) Excellent weather. (3) Buses that let you throw
| your bike on a flip-down rack at the front. (4) Awesome nearby
| scenery and great views.
|
| My understanding is, since living there, LA has embraced
| cycling. Good on you LA!
|
| _In life, there are two kinds of people: some people drive,
| and others are driven._ - Non-driving successful executive and
| friend of the CEO of the first and only public company I worked
| for.
| ShadowBanThis01 wrote:
| That on its own is not informative. WHERE in L.A.? Buses are
| subject to traffic like everything else, and they don't go
| everywhere at all hours.
|
| Blanket statements like yours are not applicable to L.A.,
| just as the aforementioned fantasy-based excuses for
| eliminating automotive infrastructure are not.
|
| Of course, that doesn't stop the shamming and scamming.
| Here's another developer handout: Developers are now allowed
| to demolish a single house and replace it with 10 units of
| housing, no permits or review required (or possible). That
| means more trees cut down, more ground paved over and not
| retaining water, more blight. Meanwhile, massive Macy's and
| Fry's stores sit boarded up in dying malls in the center of
| vast parking lots that are growing weeds.
|
| And developers get even more handouts under this legislation
| (SB9/10) if the neighborhood they're wrecking is near a
| "mass-transit corridor." You know what counts as "mass
| transit" under this fraud? ONE ZIPCAR in a four-block
| quadrant. One.
|
| No word on what happens if that car gets wrecked, stolen, or
| otherwise removed. Do they tear the giant monoliths down?
|
| I am up for bikes as legitimate transit, make no mistake. But
| that's another fun thing about L.A.: They put in poorly-
| executed bike lanes (and I do support and use bike lanes) but
| the lanes go for a few blocks and then just... disappear.
| You're riding along and then POOF. No more bike lane. Years
| later, nothing has changed in those spots. That's even more
| offensive: local politicians pander to NIMBYs with
| initiatives like "Vision Zero," then half-ass it and publicly
| congratulate themselves. Actually, that's too much credit;
| they quarter-ass it at best.
|
| Oh, and the result of "Vision Zero?" INCREASED pedestrian
| fatalities: https://www.kcrw.com/news/shows/greater-
| la/pedestrian-deaths...
|
| That's because nobody has the balls to ruthlessly combat the
| real threat to cyclists, pedestrians, and drivers: TEXTING
| while driving. It should be a DUI-level offense with the same
| penalties.
| Animats wrote:
| It's amusing that their bike lanes have an occasional Jersey
| barrier. That prevents vehicles from running through the plastic
| dividers.
|
| New York City had a problem with that. They did something
| similar. They used some anti-terrorism funds to upgrade some of
| the plastic dividers to anti-terrorism grade bollards. Not all of
| them. Just some of them. The ones that will stop a runaway cement
| mixer are not marked.
| epistasis wrote:
| Traffic engineers in many places in the US are hesitant to
| install life-saving infrastructure if it risks scratching the
| cars of careless drivers. So kudos to NYC for being braver and
| making better decisions.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| > They used some anti-terrorism funds to upgrade some of the
| plastic dividers to anti-terrorism grade bollards. Not all of
| them. Just some of them. The ones that will stop a runaway
| cement mixer are not marked.
|
| This is a clever, cost effective mechanism to encourage
| compliance without breaking the bank.
| baud147258 wrote:
| > The city's transportation policies have been very popular. In
| 2020, Mayor Hidalgo promised to continue her bold redesign of the
| city during her successful re-election campaign.
|
| it has been popular for people living in Paris, but people from
| the suburbs who either have to transit through Paris by car or
| who have seen an increase in car trafic because people have to go
| around Paris aren't big fans of her; but they don't really have
| their say in this (because they don't live in Paris, they don't
| vote in the municipal elections)
| truculent wrote:
| Honest question: for whom is it easier to travel into Paris by
| car than by transit? Having been to Paris only a couple of
| times, I found the transit options very convenient; although
| generally localised around the city center
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(page generated 2023-04-28 23:02 UTC)