[HN Gopher] IKEA Redesigns Its Bestsellers
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IKEA Redesigns Its Bestsellers
Author : jbredeche
Score : 90 points
Date : 2023-04-25 14:11 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.wsj.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.wsj.com)
| sottol wrote:
| So I was wondering why they'd openly admit in a WSJ article that
| they've "watered down" their furniture and are doubling down on
| their reputation for flimsy particle-board and paper
| construction.
|
| Also, I've observed this trend starting way earlier than the
| pandemic and the start of recent inflation, I bought their
| butcher block countertops in 2013 and 2018 for my workshop. Let
| me just say I ripped out my 2013 ones and transferred as much of
| the old ones to the new workshop as I could.
|
| I can see two reasons for this article:
|
| 1. Their customers are noticing and it shows in survey and
| satisfaction and this is an attempt at curtailing the reputation
| damage (but don't really see why it's in the WSJ then, maybe
| it'll show in the coming quarterly/yearly's and they can point to
| this later?),
|
| 2. or they're signaling to investors that they're going to boost
| profitability and/or margins.
|
| Either way, not really a positive trend in my eyes.
|
| But also unfortunately, it's not like the alternatives are
| generally much better :/ Seems to be an industry-wide trend.
|
| EDIT: nevermind, Ikea is entirely privately held -- no investors
| to placate, so 1. maybe?
| Symbiote wrote:
| People who care about their carbon footprint, but still want
| new furniture, can pretend buying something cheap from Ikea is
| the solution.
| tap-snap-or-nap wrote:
| Corporate cost cuts reframed as a moral deed
| tpmx wrote:
| > 2. or they're signaling to investors that they're going to
| boost profitability and/or margins.
|
| They don't really have outside investors. Or investors at all.
| They have literally been building this organically for 80
| years.
| bedros wrote:
| basically, making ikea products fall apart in two years instead
| of 5 years. What a shame, just increase the prices slightly.
| asciimov wrote:
| Is enshitification endemic of stagnate wages, or is it due to
| investors seeking ever grater short term gains?
| donatj wrote:
| I have bought and assembled 6 billy bookcases one by one over the
| last 15 years and the drop in quality over time has been quite
| perceivable.
|
| The latest one I assmeled used _plastic_ locking mechanisms to
| keep the shelves in place instead of the metal of all my prior
| bookcases. Probably _good enough_ , but doesn't inspire
| confidence.
| donatj wrote:
| I truly wish whoever downvoted me would give me an explanation
| of why. This has been my experience.
|
| Do you disagree with my assessment? I can go take pictures of
| my individual bookshelves if you would like and show the
| gradual drop in quality if you would prefer.
| switch007 wrote:
| There is so little left to cut. Replacing wood veneer with foil?
| Man, that's low.
|
| I'd never buy furniture from them. Just smaller things like
| glasses and plants. They're a shadow of what they used to be.
| Simulacra wrote:
| It's remarkable what they've done with cardboard and veneer to
| make everything.
| omnibrain wrote:
| Having shopped at Ikea for 20 years now there is one pattern I
| noticed: In general Ikea won't increase the price of an article,
| instead they would produce it cheaper and cheaper.
| unwind wrote:
| I'm a bit saddened by this news, since making their products
| flimsier/lighter will surely make them feel worse.
|
| Anyway, the very first paragraph has this:
|
| _ALMHULT, Sweden--Amid IKEA's colorful staged living rooms,
| piles of umlaut-laden housewares and endless rows of flat-pack
| boxes is furniture that can have shoppers wondering: How does
| that chair cost only $35?_
|
| Which I think is really bad writing for a publication like the
| WSJ. Swedish does _not_ have "umlauts". We have three letters
| more than the US English alphabet, but only two of them (A and O)
| have the double dots: the third has a ring (A). These three are
| real first-class letters though, they are not "umlauted" (which
| means changed from some base letter due to grammar).
| itsameta4 wrote:
| The dots are indeed called umlauts, at least in English:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umlaut_(diacritic)
| ska wrote:
| I think OP's contention was that in Swedish these are not
| diacritical marks, but different letters.
| okamiueru wrote:
| Indeed. The equivalent Norwegian letters are ae/AE, o/O,
| a/A (in the correct order). And you wouldn't call those
| umlauts either.
| pessimizer wrote:
| I'm not sure if that's a distinction or a difference. "N"
| is a completely different letter than "N", but that doesn't
| make "~" less of a tilde.
| Findecanor wrote:
| I think the OP is splitting hairs. I'd say that they are
| just as much different letters in German, from which the
| word "Umlaut" comes. One is replaced with the other in word
| inflections. For instance, the noun "Land" is "Lander" in
| plural -- both in German and Swedish.
|
| But what the two dots are not: they are definitely not
| _diaeresis_.
| silvestrov wrote:
| no, it is not splitting hairs.
|
| You don't think of "y" being "u" with an Umlaut. For you
| this is a completely seperate letter. Ditto with AOA im
| Swedish and AEOA in Danish (AE is _never_ thought of as
| combined A and E).
| Symbiote wrote:
| The dots when used in English are called a diaeresis:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaeresis_(diacritic)
|
| Otherwise, except when discussing German, I think "two dots"
| is much more common:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_dots_(diacritic)
| haspoken wrote:
| https://archive.is/YQiDs
| antisthenes wrote:
| How many times are we going to rediscover that free market isn't
| just companies competing for the customer on price, but companies
| competing in a race to the bottom on quality/cost to pad their
| earnings as well?
| goostavos wrote:
| What? Doesn't the free market also gives you mid-range
| furniture options as well as high end wood workers that'll
| build anything you're willing to pay for? Ikea is optimizing
| for particle board rectangles because people in 'the market'
| mostly want affordable rectangles.
| harimau777 wrote:
| In my experience, the free market hollows out the medium
| range and lifts the price of the high range above what
| average people can afford. So all that's left for them is
| crap.
| evancox100 wrote:
| I think the high end stuff was always expensive. Why do you
| think furniture was passed down from generation to
| generation? It's just that globalization and technology
| have made the low end so cheap, that by comparison it feels
| like the high end stuff is too expensive. But that is just
| your preference for lower cost, good enough items coming
| through!
|
| (This take not backed up by any data, just my opinion.)
| dirtyid wrote:
| Solid woods also elevated to more premium material due to
| scarcity, scarcer the wood, the higher the price.
| syntheweave wrote:
| I'll be over here investing in shoe racks and resin shelves.
| datacruncher01 wrote:
| Not a good trend, IKEA is like the Toyota of furniture. It's
| inexpensive but functional. With these changes they will be no
| different than cheap trash furniture. So why pay any premium for
| Ikea when I can just Amazon the cheapest equivalent furniture
| knowing both will equally break sooner than later?
| JohnFen wrote:
| > IKEA is like the Toyota of furniture.
|
| Except that Toyota vehicles can take a lot of neglect and keep
| on going.
| throwaway192102 wrote:
| I've never had a piece of IKEA furniture that couldn't do its
| basic job even after 10+ years and removing clearly important
| structural bits, I'm honestly not sure what more I could do
| to reach the point where anything better is worth it
| wildzzz wrote:
| The only thing that seems to separate Ikea from similarly
| priced stuff on Amazon is the fact that I've never had
| misaligned parts from Ikea. Their QA is top notch despite some
| of their cheap stuff being very flimsy. I buy from Ikea knowing
| that I probably won't need to return it or have to talk to some
| Chinese furniture factory about getting spare parts because
| some are missing or are so poor quality, they broke during
| install. Ikea is certainly cheap for some things so you should
| use wood glue if you want them to last, these are definitely
| not hierloom pieces.
| lutorm wrote:
| I love IKEA but I'd have to disagree with their QA being top
| notch. I can't keep track of how many times I've had to go
| back because some piece in the flat pack was damaged.
| tennisflyi wrote:
| Is QA part of shipping? I'm sure they're pristine off the
| line?
| dsfyu404ed wrote:
| Toyota has NEVER been inexpensive.
|
| They've never been conspicuously or indulgently expensive but
| they've never been the cheapest option in a given class. And
| that has been a key part of their success in the North American
| market.
|
| The parallel to the furniture market isn't so cut and clear but
| Ikea does not generally compete with the big box stores on the
| lowest end FWIW.
|
| Fine tuning quality, feature and price points for their
| products to attract or repel various customer demographics is
| something big brands spend a lot of effort on.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| The Sienna is often the cheapest minivan available in the US.
| The Transit Connect Wagon is currently available for cheaper
| in some regions, but was never really marketed as a family
| vehicle, and is being discontinued this year, in its 10th
| year of nearly zero updates.
| ramesh31 wrote:
| >Toyota has NEVER been inexpensive.
|
| They are over the long run. It's a lot like Apple hardware.
| Slightly more expensive at first, but massively better resale
| value and durability, resulting in a much lower total cost of
| ownership. This is basically just the "cheap boots" paradox
| though, so people instead buy Hyundai/Kia based on the
| sticker price.
| seventhtiger wrote:
| Except that Toyota is the king of reliability and IKEA
| furniture is not even worth moving. Better to trash it and buy
| new.
| oblio wrote:
| Honestly, how do you move furniture? Do you want it over to 2
| guys with a chainsaw?
|
| Ikea furniture can definitely be moved.
| BonoboIO wrote:
| This is not new. IKEA is continuously redesigning their products
| and the name does not change. You can buy a billy book case that
| is fundamentally different than the model that was produced 35
| years ago.
|
| Less wood, less metal, more plastic, less material. Cost cutting
| at every point.
|
| I have a Besta Casefeom 2018 that was made with 1mm wood veneer
| and it looks decent. The pins where the shelf rest are made from
| metal and some screws are also metal.
|
| The 2022 version has paper foil printed to look like wood, the
| pins are plastic, the screws too. IT IS ABSOLUT TRASH! Literally.
|
| The foil is so bad, you will scratch it of accidentally with your
| fingernails, the plastic screws are one time use only, maybe
| twice. The pins are bending without any weight on it. I returned
| it.
|
| They look nearly the same, cost the same as 2018, but they are
| different. Be warned.
| Hamuko wrote:
| > _IKEA is continuously redesigning their products and the name
| does not change._
|
| Not necessarily. The GNEDBY is an almost identical version of
| the BENNO, except that the shelves mount differently on the
| GNEDBY. I bought two GNEDBY shelves used (since they stopped
| making them) and when was setting it up, I discovered that one
| of them was slightly different from my four GNEDBYs. Turns out
| that it was a BENNO all along.
| dirtyid wrote:
| It's like Expedit -> Kallax, Ikea's always tweaking/value
| engineering their products and at some point the dimensions
| become different enough to warrant rename. I think Kallax
| shaved 1 cm off the thicker Expedit perimeter pieces to the
| point where two next to each other perceptually different.
| tpmx wrote:
| I so miss the cheap 150x75 cm Linnmon honeycomb tabletop.
|
| Their default desk depth is now a mere 60 cm because everyone
| aparently use laptops on desks, nowadays. Ugh. Anything with more
| depth than that -> so much costlier.
| s1mon wrote:
| Constantly looking to shave pennies off of products is
| understandable from a business perspective, but as many are
| commenting, quality often suffers. With some household items -
| not just from Ikea - it seems like the race to the bottom leads
| to everything becoming so bereft of raw material that they are
| disposable. Try to buy simple things like a dishpan or dish rack,
| and most brands have become so flimsy that they don't last.
|
| I really wish that Ikea would offer a sub-brand which is more
| premium. They did that many years ago. I have a dresser from the
| early '90s which is still in good shape. It was differentiated by
| design. materials and construction. It also cost a lot more than
| other similar items. Around that same time they sold a series of
| shelves/cabinets with aluminum extrusions for the corners, and
| some of their more dense particle board with premium veneers for
| the shelves/panels. It really competed with high end stuff from
| other contract furniture companies like Steelcase, Knoll, and
| Herman Miller.
|
| Ikea no longer seems to be interested in competing on quality.
| jwagenet wrote:
| IKEA has mid and high tier options in a number of categories.
| While certainly not necessarily comparable to premium mass-
| produced furniture brands, definitely a step up.
| itronitron wrote:
| In my recent experience, when IKEA sells a product that is
| predominantly made of solid wood it tends to be durable, which
| is how I define quality. The particle board stuff is definitely
| hurting their brand from my perspective.
| leros wrote:
| This doesn't seem like a bad thing. Many people treat Ikea
| furniture as disposable and this seems more environmentally
| friendly. If people are happy with a cardboard coffee table,
| seems like a win.
| tivert wrote:
| > This doesn't seem like a bad thing. Many people treat Ikea
| furniture as disposable and this seems more environmentally
| friendly. If people are happy with a cardboard coffee table,
| seems like a win.
|
| Disposable furniture is the antithesis of "environmentally
| friendly."
|
| > If people are happy with a cardboard coffee table, seems like
| a win.
|
| I had one once, and I was not happy with it (a Lack). It
| literally disintegrated after about a year. People often push
| against a coffee table when sitting on a sofa, and it was _not_
| designed for those forces and came apart at the seams.
| netrus wrote:
| I have several Lacks at my place that are >15 years old. When
| I ever get sick of them, I will put them on eBay for a free
| pickup, and within an hour a student will show up and be
| happy with the free coffee table that they can use in their
| student apartment for some more years. Dinner tables used to
| be made from solid wood and were pretty much indestructible.
| But how many families dine on a >100 year old table? Most
| indestructible furniture will get discarded as well at some
| point (well before they are actually broken beyond repair),
| because its out of style, has the wrong measures, is too
| heavy ...
| oblio wrote:
| More than that, you can probably fix the Lack.
|
| Just get some cheap metal brackets and attach them to the
| underside of the table and the legs. Especially if you have
| a white Lack, you can paint the bracket and screws white
| and the table will still look nice.
|
| And this would make it, dunno, $40 for the table and $5 for
| the screws and brackets.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| What did you do to it?!?!?!
|
| Lacks are notoriously sturdy for their "cardboardness".
| People literally turn their Lacks into server racks, they're
| that sturdy.
| benj111 wrote:
| ill defend ikea as somewhat environmentally friendly, as they
| sell the same items for years, so instead of having to buy a
| new crockery set when too many dining plates are broken, or a
| whole a new set of shelves because you just need one more, you
| can add to what you already have.
|
| disposible furniture isnt environmentally friendly though. if
| you want a cheap item of furniture for short term use, get one
| second hand.
|
| Having said this, I got my first Billy bookcase 15 years ago,
| it's still going strong with the more recent additions. So they
| don't have to be disposable items.
| oblio wrote:
| I think if you take care of Ikea and you're not super unlucky
| or move very frequently, Ikea furniture for sure can last
| several decades.
|
| And at that point... how much furniture do you really need?
| Does it really need to follow you to your grave?
| Brendinooo wrote:
| My gripe with IKEA in this regard is: yes, they'll keep the
| same product lines, but they change up the product finishes
| enough to matter. I had a PAX unit in Beech Veneer which,
| once they got rid of, I could no longer extend. Also did my
| kitchen with them and they got rid of the finish I picked
| shortly after, which meant that I couldn't replace panels
| like I thought I might have been able to.
|
| Could still get accessories for the inside of this stuff
| though, which definitely isn't nothing.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| > Also did my kitchen with them and they got rid of the
| finish I picked shortly after, which meant that I couldn't
| replace panels like I thought I might have been able to.
|
| IKEA kitchens are actually one of the best things they
| sell. Their hardware lasts decades and finishes are very
| sturdy
| pcurve wrote:
| I hope they keep the original ones though... e.g. (Billy
| Classic).
|
| Wish I had never sold the Jerker desk from 20 years ago. It was
| built like a tank.
| dbg31415 wrote:
| I just came here to say this! (=
| sct202 wrote:
| I agree especially when people seem to throw away solid wood
| furniture all the time near me because it's too heavy or
| cumbersome to move or even the wrong color. There's a shop that
| refurbishes old wood furniture and it seems like the main thing
| they do is paint it white, blue, or black.
| ROTMetro wrote:
| Enjoy your VOCs people.
| oblio wrote:
| VOC?
| throwaway22032 wrote:
| I used to buy a lot of Ikea stuff (to save time) and recently
| I've just started making my own from basic plywood etc because
| the quality has totally gone to shit. I used to buy the pine
| stuff, there's very little of that any more.
|
| It's designed in such a way now that if you use it slightly
| outside of parameters it's fucked. Like, pick up a chest of
| drawers the wrong way and the particleboard snaps in a way that
| is impossible to fix properly without replacing the entire beam.
|
| Try and screw something to the side of a Kallax or whatever, it's
| honeycomb cardboard so screws just fall through. Yeah you can do
| it with a bit of effort, but I mean, meh.
|
| I don't think that square items of furniture like that should be
| disposable. You should be able to just cut it up and use the
| scrap wood for other projects. Even if you don't want to, leave
| it outside your flat or house on a dry day, someone will.
| blueridge wrote:
| If you're in the market for buy-it-for-life solid wood furniture:
|
| https://www.thejoinery.com
|
| https://vermontwoodsstudios.com/
|
| https://hedgehousefurniture.com
|
| https://57stdesign.com
|
| https://www.57thstreetbookcase.com/ (all bookcases, some veneer
| and plywood)
|
| https://www.spekeklein.com/home
|
| https://www.pompy.com/
|
| https://www.chiltons.com/
|
| https://roomandboard.com (mix of solid and veneer, some MDF)
|
| These makers are in a league of their own, very expensive,
| incredibly beautiful hand-made pieces:
|
| https://www.sammaloofwoodworker.com
|
| https://www.thosmoser.com (highly recommended)
|
| https://nakashimawoodworkers.com (new commissions around $7K-$15K
| for a coffee table, $20K-40K for dining table, plus shipping;
| older Nakashima pieces are highly valued in the art world and
| sell anywhere between $15K-$300K)
|
| https://www.wright20.com/search/nakashima/items#past
|
| Edit: Also, to echo what someone mentioned below, if you're
| interested in solid wood furniture you should find a local
| woodworker.
|
| Another edit and thought: I used to own a lot of IKEA furniture
| and as I've gotten older, have slowly replaced those pieces with
| items from Knoll, with custom pieces from local woodworkers, with
| a few pieces from the studios listed above. A lot of people are
| commenting on the cost, and yes they're expensive and could be
| considered luxury goods.
|
| But if you like art and design and you care about quality, you
| save for what you want to buy. I wanted to be surrounded by great
| craftsmanship, so instead of buying "stuff" and instead of
| spending money on lots of subscriptions and services, or
| constantly upgrading phones and computers, I buy one piece of
| nice furniture every year. I believe the more you appreciate the
| things around you, the more they begin to influence your own
| work, and your sense of place.
|
| I regularly see a lot of IKEA furniture on the side of the road
| and in dumpsters. I think this is the difference between buying
| "things" and having "possessions" but that's a discussion for
| another day.
| slg wrote:
| And these highlight the main reason why IKEA is still so
| successful. The apparent starting price for a bed appears to be
| $1800 on those sites (at least the ones in which I could easily
| find a price). Meanwhile IKEA has options under $200. I
| understand all the complaints that people have regarding the
| durability of IKEA furniture and how it is potentially getting
| worse, but replacing IKEA furniture every 2 years is still a
| more attractive deal for many people than replacing some higher
| quality stuff every 15-20 years.
| Brendinooo wrote:
| What was astonishing to me is the resale value of IKEA stuff.
| We sold off a bunch of furniture when we moved a year ago and
| I think that the price I got for my PAX unit was somewhere
| close to what my parents paid for it for me like 25 years
| ago.
|
| Used furniture is a weird market because it's hard to match
| buyers and sellers. But for whatever reason people seek out
| IKEA stuff. I've never had a problem moving it and have
| generally been happy with the prices I get
| crote wrote:
| PAX cabinets are a modular system.
|
| Unlike virtually all other brands, IKEA enables you to
| purchase additional parts years or even decades down the
| line. Instead of searching for a second-hand cabinet which
| 100% matches your needs, you just look for something which
| is close enough and buy a few additional shelves and door
| handles new.
| Brendinooo wrote:
| Yup. Wasn't just PAX though, I've had similar experiences
| with a cheapo couch, bookshelves, and my old desk.
| JambalayaJim wrote:
| The IKEA products are recognizable and easy to measurements
| for online. It's likely people have tried them out before
| because they're so common as well (or they've walked
| through the store a few times).
| bobthepanda wrote:
| IKEA is like a chain restaurant, you know what you're
| getting into and there's a fair bit of supply.
|
| It is probably a lot easier to acquire a set of used Ikea
| furniture that matches reasonably well, than doing it with
| the random stuff that gets out there.
| danielfoster wrote:
| I was going to comment this as well. Similar to a used
| Hondas, IKEA furniture can fetch higher prices because it's
| so ubiquitous and easy to own. You know it will be easy to
| move, what to expect, and where you can find spare parts.
|
| Not to mention when people need only one thing from IKEA,
| some will pay a premium to get it from down the street
| versus driving to IKEA.
| oblio wrote:
| Besides that: no thanks to solid wood. It's super heavy and
| annoying to move around, and I say that as a guy. A woman of
| a smaller build or a child that needs to move a bit of
| furniture will hate them even more. Especially stuff like
| chairs.
| liotier wrote:
| > replacing IKEA furniture every 2 years
|
| What the hell are you doing with your Ikea furniture ? I have
| stuff going towards twenty years, no problem.
| pixl97 wrote:
| If you have kids, it's likely they are eating it.
|
| Left them in a sandbox with a feather and an anvil and came
| back to half the anvil and feathers spread around
| everywhere.
|
| While sarcasm, never underestimate how insanely destructive
| children are.
| JonChesterfield wrote:
| Most of it really doesn't like being disassembled and
| reassembled, so moving home every year or so would do that
| to the lifespan
| aqsalose wrote:
| In my experience, the trick is to move them without
| disassembly or with minimal disassembly (removing only
| moving parts like shelves that are planned to be removed)
| like any other furniture. Nothing weird with that: Most
| traditional furniture items made by a carpenter would be
| equally incompatible with disassembly.
| nradov wrote:
| Likewise, if you're not planning on moving then you can
| make Ikea furniture much stronger by adding wood glue
| between the pieces during assembly. That way it stays
| tight and nothing comes loose or flexes.
| nickelcitymario wrote:
| I second this. Ikea furniture is great until you have to
| move it. Nothing wears and tears faster.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| You clearly haven't tried moving with your local
| "designer furniture center" "high quality" furniture.
| IKEA is pretty much as good as the "quality furniture",
| when it comes to moving.
| mortenjorck wrote:
| Ikea is perhaps the ultimate YMMV brand.
|
| I have a sofa I bought in 2005. I keep thinking I'll
| replace it after my next move, but even after several since
| then, it barely shows a fraction of its age (though I will
| admit a lack of kids or pets has likely helped).
|
| I also bought an ottoman at some point after the sofa. It
| never looked great to start with, and I threw it out before
| the first move.
|
| I have a desk of similar vintage to the sofa. I'm typing at
| it right now. I think I've been in offices with contract-
| grade furniture less durable than it.
|
| I bought two different Ikea dressers over the years. One I
| didn't bother taking with me on the first move; the other
| is still holding up great several moves later.
| clnq wrote:
| It highly depends on the region and the local manufacturers
| they use. IKEA furniture is of very good quality in the
| Baltic/Scandinavian region in my experience, and
| significantly poorer quality in the UK.
|
| I've also seen many packing mistakes (like two right sides
| of an armchair and no left side being packed) and similar
| in the UK that I never encountered around the
| Baltics/Nordics. I think a lot depends on the work and
| business culture in the region, as I've noticed more
| emphasis on quality in a lot of things in Scandinavia.
| krat0sprakhar wrote:
| > replacing IKEA furniture every 2 years is still a more
| attractive deal for many people than replacing some higher
| quality stuff every 15-20 years.
|
| Especially true for those of us living in apartments and
| moving residences every 3-4 years
| distances wrote:
| I'm missing something, why is it assumed that living in an
| apartment is short term?
| mdmglr wrote:
| United States
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| not everyone is in a tech hub and can jump jobs without
| moving. and the parent comment implies they're doing a
| 3-5 year jump / move.
|
| that doesn't mean people can stay in the same place long
| term, but if you're going to be there for 10+ years it
| might make sense to buy. yeah yeah i get no one can do
| that in SF or London, but plenty of HN posters who aren't
| in those cities.
| distances wrote:
| But if you buy, it would be more common to buy an
| apartment than a house, no? At least in European cities.
| Which would counter the assumption of short-term
| apartment living.
| burnished wrote:
| Universal rent increases.
| distances wrote:
| It's common both to own an apartment and rent a single-
| family house? I'm probably missing some US cultural
| assumptions.
| burnished wrote:
| No, if you live in an apartment your typical experience
| right now is one of rent increases pricing you out of
| your neighborhood - if you owned a home this wouldnt be a
| problem. So living in an apartment kinda has an implicit
| expiration - your time is up once you get priced out.
| balfirevic wrote:
| And why is it assumed that living in apartment is
| renting?
| dabluecaboose wrote:
| Generally the colloquial way to refer to an owned unit is
| as a "condo" whereas an "apartment" is assumed to be
| renting
|
| It's more complicated than that but it's basically how it
| works in normal conversation
| liotier wrote:
| USA bias I guess: they consider apartments undesirable,
| only to be tolerated by the younger and/or poorer - but
| families are expected to try for a house.
| K7PJP wrote:
| People who live in apartments in the US tend to move to
| another apartment frequently, either to get a better
| unit, to avoid a sharp rent increase, or to move to
| another neighborhood. We moved 7 times over a 20 year
| span.
| oblio wrote:
| That sounds super stressful. Especially since moving is
| considered one of the most stressful moments in life.
| liotier wrote:
| Young people do move often but, once they settle and buy
| their family apartment, they are just as static as
| occupants of any other type of dwelling.
| asciimov wrote:
| Most people in the US don't have any rent control, not
| even controls for percentage increase year to year.
|
| When I was renting, I could expect a 10-15% increase year
| to year. With the current average apartment cost being
| $1700, that can mean paying an additional $500-$800 per
| month after 3 years. At that point it becomes worth it to
| look elsewhere.
| krat0sprakhar wrote:
| US bias. Sorry, should have clarified that in my comment.
| distances wrote:
| No problem, I'm indeed not from US so I was just confused
| for a moment there.
| aimor wrote:
| Thanks for this list.
|
| Buy it for life is right. I've inherited plenty of buy it for
| life furniture from family and friends, had some repaired and
| refinished, bought others off craigslist or estate sales etc,
| some are on their last legs or are too special to be anything
| but an heirloom as opposed to usable furniture. Of course
| things don't stay beautiful forever without care; kids (myself
| included, I damaged some nice furniture when little) are
| probably the most destructive force.
|
| I still go back and forth (have a need for bookshelves right
| now) between the price tiers of Ikea's Billy, local used sales,
| and new wood furniture. But I've never regretted buying
| something nice.
| bluesummers5651 wrote:
| To add to this, I've liked the Room & Board furniture I've
| purchased as well. It's pretty simple design-wise, but solid
| wood, American-made (if you care about things like that), and
| broadly available. But honestly, the nicest piece of furniture
| I have is something I commissioned a local cabinet maker to
| make. It was only marginally more expensive than what a
| comparable piece at R&B would cost, but was completely custom
| in a way that R&B could not be, and it was also nice to support
| local woodworkers.
| blueridge wrote:
| R&B is another good one, added to the list. And yes, local
| woodworkers are a great option!
| danielfoster wrote:
| These are all stunning. Excellent craft is worth it. It's
| beautiful when something lasts forever.
|
| Maybe I'm too young (I don't think so, I'm 32), but I have been
| impressed with how long some of my IKEA pieces have held up.
| Since IKEA products are so easy to disassemble and often
| modular, they are easy to buy and sell. I've bought countless
| used IKEA items over the years and sold nearly as many. These
| products are perfect for people who constantly move or have
| changing needs.
|
| IKEA does not make throw-away furniture.
| random314 wrote:
| [dead]
| danwee wrote:
| Just clicked on the first link: $1225 for one chair
| (https://www.thejoinery.com/furniture/dining-chairs-dining-
| ro...). I have 4 Ikea STEFAN. Around $47 each. Been 4 years
| already and they are still intact. Sure, the quality of the
| Hayden is way better, but 26 times better? I don't think so.
| Spivak wrote:
| Or phrased differently you could replace your ikea chair 25
| times over your lifetime and still come out ahead.
|
| These kinds of pieces are generational purchases. They do
| save you money but on a very long timescale that you yourself
| likely won't realize.
| matsemann wrote:
| And costly to maintain as well. Source: have some wegner y
| stol or whatever from before me where the rope/strings are
| about to disintegrate (thanks, cats..). A small fortune if
| I want to refurbish them.
| nradov wrote:
| The next generation probably won't even want those pieces
| because they will have different lifestyles and
| preferences. If you want to buy nice furniture and can
| afford it then go ahead, but when you die it will most
| likely be thrown away or donated to Goodwill.
| systemtest wrote:
| I inherited Vitra furniture and Artemide lights. Decades
| old but still fashionable and they hold their value well.
| I will likely pass these down to my children one day.
|
| The right furniture is timeless.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| This is particularly true with people having fewer kids.
| 10 pieces of furniture goes fast when you have 20+
| grandchildren. Not so much when you have 2 grandchildren.
| yunwal wrote:
| > They do save you money but on a very long timescale
|
| You're not going to save money by replacing your Ikea
| furniture with handcrafted wood furniture that's 25 times
| the price. Whenever you move, it'll cost more to move the
| nice chair. You'll eventually have to reupholster it.
| You'll need to find other hardwood furniture to match it.
| It'll be way way more expensive over it's lifetime.
|
| The furniture looks and feels nicer to us, was made with
| thoughtfulness, and is unique, and that's why people buy
| it, not because it saves money.
| pcurve wrote:
| Even the cheaper ones are quite princely.
| bobchadwick wrote:
| This gets to the heart of the argument Christopher Schwarz
| makes in his book, The Anarchist's Design Book [1], which is
| that it's nearly impossible for people who aren't rich to buy
| high quality furniture that will last a lifetime. An
| alternative is to build it yourself. The Anarchist's Design
| book presents relatively simple plans for building high quality
| furniture without requiring a ton of experience or tools.
|
| [1] https://lostartpress.com/products/the-anarchists-design-
| book
| dirtyid wrote:
| > high quality furniture that will last a lifetime
|
| Other caveat being high quality furniture rarely last a life
| time, restoration / repair can cost more than normal
| furniture. Another consideration is some luxury furniture /
| design pieces don't perform that well to heavy every day
| wear. There's a lot of pieces in big homes / spaces that gets
| very occasional use.
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| > Curious about what we mean by "anarchism?" Read this short
| FAQ. It's probably not what you think.
|
| presumably added at the bottom because people were expecting
| to download it for free...
| SamuelAdams wrote:
| Who actually wants the same furniture for life though? People
| move houses often. In my state the average length of a 15/30
| year mortgage is 5 years, meaning the homeowner either
| refinances or sells and moves to another home.
|
| New home means new furniture, and if the old furniture
| doesn't fit the new home's style then sorry, it's out and
| something else replaces it.
|
| The idea of people living in the same house for 30-50 years
| is dead. IKEA understands this, so they create furniture that
| lasts the average length of a mortgage.
| kajecounterhack wrote:
| https://www.gingkofurniture.com has plenty of stuff in the
| $400-2k range, and most of their pieces are also buy it for
| life. Solid hardwood (walnut) construction, steel-framed
| shelving, etc. They have physical locations in the bay area.
| audunw wrote:
| There's a lot of people saying solid wood furniture is more
| sustainable. I seriously doubt that though. If you like solid
| wood, and you make sure to take care of it, then I think it's a
| good choice. As long as not too many of us do it at the same
| time.
|
| Imagine how much hardwood you'd suddenly have to cut down if
| _everyone_ started buying these instead of IKEA furniture.
|
| You can use the price as a rough proxy for resource
| consumption. In my experience IKEA furniture lasts a good
| fraction of a lifetime. You can buy several for the price of
| one of these solid wood furniture, and I think you can also buy
| several before the resource impact is the same as well.
|
| I'm honestly quite impressed with the engineering they're doing
| with cardboard these days. We have a coffee table and two wall
| shelves mounted below a TV.. and we have kids. They get treated
| badly, and they can take it. I hope to replace the coffee table
| with something nicer one day, but the IKEA one can get a second
| life in the basement.
|
| The only thing I would have wished was solid wood is our dining
| table. The veneer is a bit damaged from moisture or heat. If it
| was solid wood we could've sanded and treated it.
|
| I think the sustainable thing is a combination of IKEAs
| approach and solid wood. Every solid wood furniture bought will
| hopefully reduce the amount of trees we cut down over the long
| term, if they're well taken care of. Eventually it'll reduce
| the amount of IKEA-style furniture that has to be made. But
| right now that the population is still growing so much, and we
| need so much new furniture for new households, I suspect the
| best thing is to use the fastest growing wood and use as little
| as possible of it in the furniture.
| ericpauley wrote:
| Agreed, I think the complaints about IKEA sustainability is
| mostly just a luxury belief. IKEA furniture is cheaper
| because it uses _fewer resources_ (especially less wood).
| When lightly used in a home environment a lot of it can last
| a _very_ long time.
| [deleted]
| dpierce9 wrote:
| No Gomer Bolstrood?
| VoodooJuJu wrote:
| These are, unfortunately, luxury goods. I don't want them to
| be. There was a time when they weren't. But they're now luxury
| goods. The masses have to suffer Ikea - it's all we can afford.
| The above stuff is for the upper classes.
| gregschlom wrote:
| >There was a time when they weren't.
|
| I'm not sure if that's true. My impression is that furniture
| has always been very expensive, and it's only fairly recently
| (mid-20th century?) that mass manufacturing has enabled it to
| be cheap, with IKEA being one of the most well-known
| examples.
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| the average person was a lot more crafty, as was the
| average community. a lot was built locally.
|
| but yeah cheap furniture, like in the "couple hundred of
| dollars" sense is pretty new.
| elcritch wrote:
| There used to be much more abundant old growth forests as
| well, so sourcing hardwood for furniture was much more
| practical.
| mandmandam wrote:
| There _was_ a time, _about 1.6 million years_ , when you
| could bring your axe into the woods, maybe with a friend or
| two, cut a clearing, and build a whole house with wood
| furniture that your great great grandchildren would use.
|
| You could eat the abundant animals, drink the clean water,
| and enjoy an entire life without ever once imbibing
| microplastics and PFAS.
|
| It might have been a lot of work - but it was completely
| free. Those times are long gone, and it doesn't seem likely
| they'll _ever_ return -- but that is how we lived for the
| vast majority of our time as human beings.
| matthewdgreen wrote:
| But then you died from a minor cut you got while building
| that house, and before that you buried most of your young
| children. A life spent assembling IKEA may not be the
| best life, but it sure beats that.
| dnissley wrote:
| Suffer? Really?
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| The first link I clicked brought me to a $2000 bar stool.
| That's nice I'm sure, but I'm out.
|
| I'll buy used.
| pseudosavant wrote:
| This is when I like to point out that you can find skilled
| carpenters who will make you custom furniture sized just
| how you want for less than that. That is what I did in my
| kitchen nook.
| oblio wrote:
| You need to know them, or have someone you really trust
| recommend them.
|
| Then you need to see some samples of what they've done.
|
| And I imagine most can't show you 3D mockups of the end
| result.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| That's a good point. I have an older guy I met at a
| farmer's market, in my phone under Greg Shelves, it's a
| land line, I have to pay in cash. The problem is I never
| know exactly what I'm going get, but it is always nice.
| matsemann wrote:
| Go to any yardsale or scour online ads: people almost pay you
| to take their big old wooden furniture off their hands.
| 535188B17C93743 wrote:
| Why is there no way to save comments on HN? Or is there? I want
| to save this for one day when I can afford this all, haha.
| kdmssn wrote:
| Click on the time of the comment and then you will see a
| favourite option
| MisterTea wrote:
| I keep a text file of interesting hn discussions/comments. I
| maintain a sort-of format where the URL goes on the first
| line and the next line is the article title and below that
| any key words then skip a line for the next. I have a
| directory full of text files with links sorted by topic. I
| have a command that just greps that directory and tells me
| the text file and line number.
| GaryNumanVevo wrote:
| Coincidentally, I'm writing this with my feet up on a vintage
| IKEA coffee table that's solid pine. I got it second hand from a
| thrift store for $20, but it must be at least 15 years old. When
| I move, I'll probably just donate it back to Goodwill, and the
| cycle will continue
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| This isn't a new thing, this is their equivalent of the Toyota
| Kaizen continous improvement thing.
|
| Here's a book review of their "Democratic Design" book in which
| they discuss trying to fulfil 5 design paramaters,
|
| Form, function, quality, price and sustainability:
|
| https://uxdesign.cc/ikea-democratic-design-3-design-takeaway...
| jbverschoor wrote:
| Off topic, is there any business that will CNC/cut particle board
| to size, shape, and create holes etc?
|
| Basically thingiverse for furniture.
|
| It would be awesome to be able to customize and reorder parts.
| For novice users, parametric models could be used to perfectly
| fit your closet in some nook.
|
| I know there are fully automatic wood cnc machines, but I'm not
| aware of any company that offers this service (at a reasonable
| price of course).
| vhodges wrote:
| https://www.opendesk.cc/
| aaronblohowiak wrote:
| there are loads of cnc hobbyists looking to make some more
| money. post something on craigslist im sure you'll get some
| takers.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| send-cut-send will do it, even from inkskape files, but nothing
| bigger than 44"x30" for MDF which limits furniture options
| somewhat.
| MisterTea wrote:
| Reasonable price is relative. Real CNC woodworkers cost
| hundreds of thousands of dollars and require a large commercial
| space with electric supply. The people who can afford those
| usually have plenty of work lined up for them. But that's not
| always the case.
|
| Look around for small wood shops. My father owned one and had a
| Northwood with two 4x8 tables and 4 spindles. Mostly for in-
| house work but did a bunch of job shopping if someone came to
| him with decent drawings. A lot of work was one table so the
| other could be quickly setup for a one off.
| Loic wrote:
| I was able to build a very nice desk[0] for my wife using wood
| from one provider[1] in Germany. It was CNC cut extremely
| precisely. I requested all the plates and used my wood tools to
| do all the small cuts, holes, etc. But you can ask them to cut
| the holes too. It saved me a lot of time and energy to have the
| plates ready at the right dimensions. I am sure you can find
| the same kind of providers wherever you live.
|
| [0]: https://dl.ceondo.com/public/stuff/desk.mp4
|
| [1]: https://www.plattenzuschnitt24.de/
| chucksta wrote:
| https://sendcutsend.com/
| porphyra wrote:
| I've had good experiences with sendcutsend for small aluminum
| parts, not sure about large wood parts but they do support many
| materials including mdf and plywood.
|
| https://sendcutsend.com/materials/baltic-birch-plywood/
| bell-cot wrote:
| And here I was thinking to buy some more bookshelves, and
| assuming that another Ikea Billy set would be good enough for my
| den.
| kps wrote:
| [edited] The article seems to imply America and Europe still
| have the 1999 version, for now, but Contingencies' comment
| suggests both are present.
| el_don_almighty wrote:
| Our Billy shelves are 15 years old and I would not consider
| them disposable, poorly designed, or fabricated from low-
| quality materials. Frankly, they have been an excellent
| investment. The same goes for the couches our kids jumped on
| for years.
|
| I suspect this comes from having been assembled by an engineer
| and not the average [insert mechanically unqualified archetype
| here for flamewar].
|
| For decorating reasons that I cannot explain, I periodically
| disassemble some pieces and store them for future
| reintroduction after painting or some other visual adjustments
| without issue, keeping in mind that all those little metal bits
| must be stored in a bag and tie-wrapped to the kit.
|
| I find a certain elegance in the austere design simplicity and
| construction but recognize it may not be to everyone's
| preferred taste. Like most objects around us, IKEA products
| have potential for good or evil, depending upon the user's
| intent and usage.
| teachrdan wrote:
| It's apparent you didn't RTFA before posting. From the part
| before the paywall, even:
|
| "IKEA grew into a furniture behemoth with a relentless focus
| on keeping costs low, but that goal has become more
| challenging. The price of metal, glass, wood and plastic have
| spiraled up, as have shipping costs. Inflation has squeezed
| consumers' wallets. Managers at IKEA knew that something had
| to change to keep prices down and profits up, so in the past
| couple of years they have taken some of their products back
| to the drawing board."
|
| This explains why the nicer Ikea furniture you purchased 15
| years ago is of a much higher quality than what is built
| today.
| contingencies wrote:
| I too grew up with some of that in the family house, AFAIK
| it's all gone now. OTOH, I put together no less than five
| Billy bookcases in the last month. These were in two visual
| styles and two height configurations (standard 2m and extra
| 2.4m).
|
| I was somewhat shocked that there were multiple assembly
| systems being delivered this year even amongst those iconic
| products. Chiefly, one type has nail-pinned back, and one
| type has a plastic pressure-pinned back. AFAIK the nail-pin
| system is older and ... it is shit. The plastic-pinned
| system is new and far better. Why?
|
| People will hammer themselves. Nails can be easily lost.
| Hammers aren't always available to consumers. Neighbours
| hate hammering noises, and many people now live in close
| proximity to strangers in apartments. CNC cut holes are
| always in the right place. Plastic pressure pins can be
| taken out if the furniture needs to be disassembled for
| relocation.
|
| I admire Ikea industrial design and consider assembly of
| their products an educational experience because, having
| spent a lot of time in the past half-decade with mechanical
| design responsibility also spanning production process
| engineering and associated logistics, _Ikea stuff is just
| so damn practical_. IMHO Ikea products and their associated
| documentation are proof that design improvement remains
| possible... even for "iconic" designs that are the back-
| stop of their brand.
|
| That said, I strongly dislike their stores.
| AlanYx wrote:
| Some of their current generation plastic fasteners are
| ingenious and probably the product of substantial
| mechanical design expertise. Their Dundra table (the Ikea
| "Lego table") is a good example... I thought there was no
| way that the way the drawers are assembled (plastic
| fasteners, no hammering) could possibly stand up to abuse
| by kids without becoming loose, but it legitimately seems
| to work.
| contingencies wrote:
| Yes it would be very interesting to see the design
| etymology of the injection molded plastic cam-lock parts.
| Here's a list of them.
| https://www.furnitureparts.com/collections/ikea-cam-lock-
| nut...
|
| I've seen them produced by others but would hazard a
| guess Ikea was one of the earlier users if not the origin
| of the design.
|
| Here is a discussion of it -
| https://www.core77.com/posts/27725/Death-to-Cam-Lock-
| Nuts-Fl... - apparently incorrectly suggesting it will be
| partly replaced with this system -
| https://www.core77.com//posts/59321/How-Ikeas-New-
| Joinery-is...
|
| The part of the allegedly proposed evolution which is not
| obvious to non-production engineers is that the milled
| voids within the proposed table interior are only
| possible to achieve with angled CNC work which is not
| something Ikea has traditionally done as it is
| historically PITA. You can basically only do it cheaply
| with custom milling robotics, which is only feasible on
| production at a certain (not huge but decent) scale.
| Specifically you probably want to have a fixed angle of
| approach and the capacity to rotate the mill's work-head
| by 90 degree increments (as this is faster, more energy
| efficient, and more spatially efficient than rotating the
| workpiece itself). Then simply mill the same feature four
| times. The alternative is rotating the workpiece on a
| huge rotary table and using a standard mill, but that
| requires angled mounting and de-mounting of the workpiece
| which is a PITA requiring equipment (eg. a robotic arm)
| itself.
|
| Production cost, part count and user experience wise this
| is _brilliant_ design enabled primarily by innovation in
| fabrication automation. Kudos to Ikea 's prototyping
| team. However, marketing wise a fat, relatively unstable
| table with zero drawers may be a hard sell and hard to
| differentiate branding wise from a straight clone.
|
| It seems the design made it to market but with some kind
| of odd-ball manually hex key driven cog-as-screw-proxy
| system as per the video here:
| https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/lisabo-coffee-table-ash-
| veneer-...
|
| The primary benefit of that system appears to be
| stability in disassembly and re-assembly (in some ways
| this is "furniture for the homeless", a very millennial
| design proposition). In addition, I'd hazard a guess
| brand differentiation was another high priority concern
| in the eventual decision to go to market with this
| oddball cog system, since AFAIK a factory-mounted thread
| insert and a countersunk screw would have been easier and
| probably cheaper, yet rapidly cloned.
| wazoox wrote:
| I have a 40 years old billy, the shelves are made of solid wood!
| IKEA quality has been dwindling for decades.
| ericpauley wrote:
| The lines have just shifted. The Hemnes is pine. I would
| imagine that adjusting for inflation it is likely cheaper than
| the Billy was when you bought it.
| sockaddr wrote:
| I love IKEA but these choices are not structurally-equivalent
| substitutes. They'll start becoming trash the (second) time you
| try to rebuild them when you move. It's the same garbage that
| Walmart has been selling.
|
| Yes you buy something for 1/3rd the cost of something made of
| real wood but it'll last 1/20th the time.
|
| What is particularly irritating is when you try to insert a cam
| or a screw and it totally mutilates the particle board rendering
| it useless or at least severely compromising the structure.
|
| I'd rather see prices stay higher (so I'm screwed in a way that
| I'm aware) instead of getting screwed in unknown ways.
| Boltgolt wrote:
| For many types of furniture there are different price points at
| IKEA and you can pay for more quality. For bar tables for
| instance, you can go for a TOMMARYD and have a cheap flimsy
| table. But if you have the budget to spend over a hundred euros
| more you can go for a fully wooden NORDVIKEN.
| achenatx wrote:
| why would I want my furniture to last 20 years? My wife will
| cycle pieces after 5-10 because she wants something new.
|
| We also have moved ikea couches multiple times and they are
| fine. It is easy to get replacement cushions when the kids
| spill stuff on the couches and when the wife decides she wants
| to get rid of it, it doesnt bother me. We have had our ikea for
| 6-7 years now, but before that we had very expensive louis
| shanks furniture and when her tastes changed to modern we got
| rid of it all.
|
| She wants to change the dining room furniture, but at 1K per
| chair with 12 chairs that is not happening.
| waynesonfire wrote:
| Resale of Ikea is close to zero unlike those 1k chairs. The
| only fool is the poor person unable to afford furniture that
| holds it's value. When you're ready for something new, you
| can actually sell the old gear for non-trivial amount.
| tap-snap-or-nap wrote:
| When I buy furniture, I buy it for life despite the premium I
| pay.
| oblio wrote:
| > why would I want my furniture to last 20 years? My wife
| will cycle pieces after 5-10 because she wants something new.
|
| I was always wondering where people's disposable income went
| :-))
| StrictDabbler wrote:
| The correct way to assemble Ikea furniture is to apply wood
| glue (PVA or polyurethane) along every joint, in every screw
| hole, on every dowel, and along the edges of every backing
| board.
|
| For extra points you can wipe polyurethane along any raw
| particle-board surfaces to seal them, like those on the bottom
| of a vertical unit.
|
| It's about five minutes extra effort and $0.50 worth of glue
| for something like a large Billy bookcase.
|
| This basically turns the entire piece into a single composite
| structure. It's incredibly durable. You cannot disassemble it
| to move but you can move it whole many, many times without
| anything breaking.
|
| I have had to take a large sledgehammer to an Ikea
| entertainment center that I'd glued.
|
| Walmart garbage does not respond the same way to this
| treatment. The Walmart (or Wayfair) particle board is a wooden
| oatmeal cookie. It crumbles from within regardless of how the
| joints are treated.
| cityofdelusion wrote:
| Wood glue is nice for Ikea stuff still made from
| reconstituted wood grain products. Unfortunately, they are
| starting to use a lot of the cardboard mesh hexagonal filler
| that doesn't respond well to glue at all. I used bondo to
| glue some of that stuff together, but its not very practical.
| wildzzz wrote:
| Ikea does sometimes use that low quality particle board for
| some things but at least they seem to be intelligent as to
| what materials they use where. Whereas Walmart just sells
| things entirely made of that shit.
| wlll wrote:
| I started doing this several years ago, the increase in
| durability is significant.
| meragrin_ wrote:
| > For extra points you can wipe polyurethane along any raw
| particle-board surfaces to seal them, like those on the
| bottom of a vertical unit.
|
| This alone is probably worth its weight in gold.
| runjake wrote:
| As far as I can tell, a lot of the more recent IKEA stuff
| we've bought is using that "wooden oatmeal cookie"[1] and
| honeycomb cardboard junk. I think some commenters are
| underestimating how much their materials have changed.
|
| We've even have an older version of a shelf unit that is
| nice, solid pine, and gone and bought the current version and
| the current version has changed to that wooden oatmeal
| cookie[1] crap.
|
| Glue does still help, though.
|
| 1. Great term, so fitting! I'm stealing it.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| Have you tried destroying IKEA $10 Lack table? It's
| straight up cardboard and is one of the most durable things
| I have ever encountered.
| zymhan wrote:
| I have a desk that's just a large Lack, and while it was
| too weak to hold up my monitor arm + 32" screen (yes, it
| was a dumb idea), it looks barely damaged after re-gluing
| the trim.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| This is a worrying article because they had already seemed
| to previously squeeze all the quality they could have of
| their products.
|
| In the past most of their table tops were solids, with only
| the cheapest ones being hollow. As they phased out those
| original tops and replaced them with _identically priced_
| updates, the vast majority become cardboard honeycomb
| filled.
|
| When you're selling $200 cardboard filled table tops, I'm
| not sure how much more blood you can squeeze from the
| stone.
| ChildOfChaos wrote:
| I've noticed this with my wardrobe I bought from Ikea.
|
| I have had to order replacement drawers and had issues with
| having to reattach it often, until I just glued it all down
| and now it's lasted and is completely stable.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I have a wayfair MDF desk that has moved 4 times with me and
| is still in amazing shape, so YMMV.
| hattmall wrote:
| What's interesting is that if your trying to build your own
| stuff is that the veneers and things are expensive, but actual
| wood is cheap.
|
| Ikea, or someone else could probably make huge profits and
| great quality furniture where you buy the flatpack with
| hardware and veneers from them but it's design to add your own
| wood for massively improved stability. You could even have a
| few guys with miter and table saws chopping locally sourced
| 2x4s and plywood that fits the kit.
| kube-system wrote:
| Ikea has a decent amount of cheap furniture that is already
| solid pine.
| Kretinsky wrote:
| Unfortunately, the range of Ikea products made from wood is
| getting smaller and smaller each year.
| dirtyid wrote:
| The range from fairly durable/solid sheet metal getting
| larger and larger each year. But aesthetics not to
| everyones taste.
| Kretinsky wrote:
| I don't know where you live (Ikea has local lineups), but
| for instance, where I am (Baltics), I couldn't find a
| wooden dressing cabinet last week.
| kube-system wrote:
| Interesting. I am always surprised that here in the US
| most (maybe all) of my pine Ikea furniture was made in
| Poland, considering how cheap pine is here in North
| America. Strange that you wouldn't have the same stuff
| considering how much closer it is to you.
|
| We have a lot of solid wood dressers here, this is just a
| few:
|
| https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/hemnes-8-drawer-dresser-
| white-s...
|
| https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/rast-3-drawer-chest-
| pine-104847...
|
| https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/bjoerksnaes-5-drawer-chest-
| birc...
|
| https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/tarva-5-drawer-chest-
| pine-10360...
| Symbiote wrote:
| The first product in Lithuania: https://www.ikea.lt/lt/pr
| oducts/miegamasis/komodos/komodos/h...
|
| Latvia: https://www.ikea.lv/lv/products/gulamistaba/kumod
| es/kumodes/...
|
| Estonia: https://www.ikea.ee/en/products/bedroom/chests-
| of-drawers/ch...
|
| The Rast and Bjorksnas ones are also available, but not
| the Tarva one.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| Em... The fact that it's listed on the US site, doesn't
| mean it's available.
|
| Selection in Vilnius is very similar as in NYC area,
| lately.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| Cabinetry grade wood is actually expensive.
| majormajor wrote:
| Cutting your own pine boards to replace the particleboard
| shelves and side panels in your Billy bookcase is likely to
| give you ok-but-also-not-exactly-straight-and-parallel
| results without a lot of specialized tools and techniques.
| teg4n_ wrote:
| that is replacing essentially the whole piece of furniture
| beside the cardboard backing
| yetanotherloser wrote:
| Not really. Youtubers with sponsors sell this daft idea
| that you "need" a lot of power tools to do woodwork, but
| you can do most of it quite precisely with a couple of hand
| saws, a good chisel and a block plane. Though by the time
| you've replaced all the particleboard in a Billy you may as
| well just make a new bookcase from scratch and give it
| proper joints.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| And loosing 5-12 hours of your life. Is the price
| difference worth that?
| [deleted]
| tap-snap-or-nap wrote:
| Being on phone, ipads and computer almost all the rest of
| my waking hours makes doing single tasks towards a larger
| project slowly quite meditative.
| orthoxerox wrote:
| What else should I spend my hobby hours on? Woodworking
| is better than DotA2 or whatever kids play these days.
| JohnFen wrote:
| IKEA sells utter garbage. They're the furnishings equivalent of
| "fast fashion".
| contingencies wrote:
| Yes, that's what the market wants. Ikea win because they (1)
| have stock (2) have a short and known delivery window (3)
| have a functional website (4) have showrooms if necessary (5)
| have instructions people can follow (6) basically invented
| popular flatpack furniture (7) flatpacks fit in cars, up
| stairs and around corners (8) they provide nominal styling
| choices and height adjustment (9) have economies of scale.
|
| Many customers don't care about tomorrow (when they are on
| their keens cursing putting the thing they ordered together)
| or the next year (when they move house and it falls apart).
| They care about now. Convenience is king. Ikea know what they
| are doing.
| latchkey wrote:
| 'fast fashion' is not the same as utter garbage unless you
| just want to be a snob about things. People buy stuff from
| Ikea non-stop and it is perfectly ok to have 'fast fashion'.
| JohnFen wrote:
| It's not a snob thing at all. Fast fashion is a euphemism
| for cheap disposable clothes. That part of the clothing
| industry is extremely harmful both environmentally and in
| terms of human decency.
| waboremo wrote:
| It's the complete disregard for environmental (and labor)
| impact that defines fast fashion. Nobody would care if
| fast fashion was just about it being cheap or disposable.
|
| You can argue Ikea has had huge environmental impact, but
| you are commenting under an article that highlights some
| of the ways they're reducing that through materials.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| My classmates in university worked part time at an IKEA
| subcontractor. They had probably the best working
| conditions in the market.
|
| Your "knowledge" of IKEAs business practices is "lacking"
| JohnFen wrote:
| It is indeed -- which is why I wasn't commenting on their
| business practices. I was only commenting on my
| experience with their products.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| Yes, but it's better than the utter garbage at Wal Mart and
| Target (better made; better designed; easier [yes!] to
| assemble) and better than the fugly furniture at places like
| Nebraska Furniture Mart (cheaper; isn't trying _and failing_
| to make it look like your $200 desk belongs to a fortune 500
| executive or your $300 couch is fine leather heirloom-quality
| furniture; made just as well)
|
| You have to spend quite a bit more to consistently beat it.
| Or you have to be really into non-trendy (so, no mid-century-
| modern) used furniture.
| cityofdelusion wrote:
| Honestly, I haven't noticed any real difference in Ikea
| flat-pack vs Walmart Target Wayfair (or even random Amazon
| listings). It is all mostly cheap junk. If you are willing
| to pay for the most expensive items, then you start to get
| real wood, but that's not their bread-and-butter.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| What I usually notice from Wal Mart and Target (and other
| discount big-box stores) are worse veneers (thinner,
| easier to damage), greater likelihood that the product is
| already damaged out-of-the-box, much worse assembly
| instructions (less-clear, often with badly-translated
| directions that I assume were originally in Chinese or
| something), greater likelihood of missing parts, and (to
| borrow a delightful phrase from elsewhere in this
| discussion) terrible, coarse, void-filled "oatmeal
| cookie" particle board that crumbles if you look at it.
|
| Ikea's stuff is crap (especially their lower-end items)
| but it's, like, _good_ crap, by comparison.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > If you are willing to pay for the most expensive items
|
| With IKEA, anyway, once you get into their actual quality
| items, they start to get more expensive than other
| options at the same quality level. (A caveat: I don't
| shop from Walmart so I have no idea about their quality
| scale).
| JAlexoid wrote:
| I don't know where you're from... but in US and a number of
| European countries - IKEA doesn't even come close to being
| the "garbage option".
| JohnFen wrote:
| I'm in the US. My experience with IKEA furniture appears to
| be different from yours, though.
| Symbiote wrote:
| Ikea sells a range of furniture, from low to middle prices.
| Cheap items use cheap materials and coatings and cheap/few
| fasteners.
| gnicholas wrote:
| Moving companies typically exclude particle board items like
| these from their insurance coverage. I've successfully moved a
| few IKEA items, but if they're taking 90% of the wood out of
| certain parts, I have to imagine they're going to be even more
| fragile now.
| dirtyid wrote:
| Some movers seem to be very good at moving Ikea furniture. Wrap
| it up, cinch it tight with straps. I've seen packed billy
| bookcases and garbage malm wardrobes moved this way without
| structural compromise. Saved a lot of time packing too. Bigger
| items need to be disassembled like bed I would pick something
| with steel frame that gets nut and bolted.
| crazygringo wrote:
| IKEA has _always_ fallen apart when you try to move it, none of
| these changes alter that. The main example in the article is
| replacing a wooden veneer with paper foil. That is totally non-
| structural.
|
| And IKEA stuff costs a _lot less_ than 1 /3 of finished solid
| wood furniture.
|
| There are a _lot_ of people who consistently move apartments
| every 1-3 years and don 't even _want_ to take their old stuff
| to the next one, because it makes no sense in a new layout. I
| have 3 Billy bookcases in my current apartment to fit precisely
| the width between two pillars in the wall, and when I move they
| 'll go straight to the curb. I had a totally different set of
| bookcases in my last apartment because the layout was totally
| different.
|
| Maybe you want prices to stay higher, but I and most other
| people sure don't.
|
| I have a few very nice expensive non-IKEA pieces (couch, bed,
| kitchen table) that last and which I take from apartment to
| apartment. But everything else is "modular storage/surfaces"
| (bookcases, cubbies, side/end tables, dresser, bedside table,
| desk) which is for the current apartment only because it fits
| it specifically. I want it to be cheap and disposable. IKEA
| fills the need _perfectly_ , and I want prices to stay as low
| as possible. I don't _want_ to spend more so any of it would
| last a move.
|
| (And many times moving _isn 't even an option_. Because you
| move in with somebody else so you toss all your old furniture,
| or you move across the country and you'd rather cheaply send a
| few boxes via post, rather than hiring an expensive moving
| service.)
| ska wrote:
| > IKEA has always fallen apart when y
|
| Some of it has. Not everything they offer is particle board,
| etc. though.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| > IKEA has always fallen apart when you try to move it
|
| IKEA has different levels of quality, including amazing
| cardboard LACK.
|
| IKEA also has a lot of solid wood furniture.
|
| What pertains to the article, is that IKEA is keeping prices
| of the expensive stuff lower than competition... by pushing
| materials to their limits.
|
| I had moderately expensive IKEA furniture and I had "designer
| furniture". IKEA isn't much different. I have Besta unit,
| that has moved multiple times thousands of miles over the
| last 8 years... still looks pretty good.
| rngname22 wrote:
| Huh, that strikes me as such a large-carbon-footprint way of
| living, but to each their own.
| shagie wrote:
| Consider also the additional cost of moving the (bulky)
| furniture.
|
| Consider if you're moving cities (lets say 250 miles) and
| going from a 10' van to a 17' van (with the assorted Ikea
| furniture) moves you from 12mpg to 10mpg - that's 20
| gallons of gas to 25 gallons of gas. That's an extra 45 kg
| of CO2 emissions.
|
| Buying new furniture at the new destination then is a
| smaller incremental cost of going to Ikea anyways.
|
| And while I'll admit that this is a very simplistic
| analysis, the corresponding assertion that doing this is a
| larger carbon footprint may fail to take into account some
| nuances.
| SargeDebian wrote:
| Compared to replacing electronics or making a dent in food
| waste, I wonder how a few pieces of particleboard furniture
| every few years stack up.
| zztop44 wrote:
| For someone else, eating meat or taking international
| holidays might strike them as a large-carbon-footprint way
| of living.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Since that may also be true for rngname22, it's entirely
| irrelevant.
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| Not necessarily. Remember that cheaper to make often also
| means less resource intensive. Some IKEA products are
| little more than very well engineered and carefully
| packaged cardboard without looking like it (the LACK table,
| for example, but also the newer wardrobe doors).
|
| Sending it to the local waste-to-energy plant and buying
| new stuff, three times, doesn't necessarily have to be
| meaningfully worse for the environment than buying "solid"
| stuff once, then moving it twice over a long distance (in a
| relatively inefficient, one-off move rather than large-
| scale logistics).
| 01100011 wrote:
| I have a couch that's moved twice and it is as good as it was
| when I bought it.
|
| IKEA makes many products that are metal(I have a couple carts
| like that) and even some of their particle board
| furniture(two large dressers I have) do fine if you move them
| carefully.
|
| My moves were from SoCal to the Bay Area and back, so not
| cross country, but not local either.
| gattilorenz wrote:
| My Friheten sleeping couch has been through three complete
| disassembly processes, has been my daily couch for about
| three years (then relegated to a guest bedroom) and has
| been used as bed a few dozen times, but it's still
| pristine. Plenty of other IKEA furniture has been through
| three movings too and it's still good.
|
| How you treat your stuff and how carefully you
| (dis)assemble it matters a lot.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| Our Soderhamn sectional was through a lot. 7 years it
| served us well, and now it serves someone else.
| audunw wrote:
| > IKEA has always fallen apart when you try to move it, none
| of these changes alter that.
|
| This keeps getting repeated.. but when I was studying, I
| bought used IKEA furniture, moved it around several times to
| different apartments, and then sold it again when I moved
| from that city.
|
| I've also renovated my house recently which involved
| disassembling and reassembling some IKEA furniture. They're
| still fine.
|
| It depends on the type of furniture of course. Yes, there are
| some specific ones that are harder to disassemble and move
| without breaking them. But not all.
|
| > I want it to be cheap and disposable.
|
| Isn't it possible to sell them on something like craigslist?
| I've bought and sold used IKEA furniture before, but I guess
| it depends on country/culture how willing people are to buy
| them.
|
| > which is for the current apartment only because it fits it
| specifically.
|
| I think this is an excellent point. We live in a home I
| intend to stay in for a long time. It's a bit on the small
| side, but we try to make the most of it by optimizing the
| furniture for that specific home. I've even customized IKEA
| furniture, cutting them to the right width etc. This lets us
| avoid moving to a new, larger home. That would certainly cost
| a lot and would be very resource intensive.
|
| I can imagine the next owner would want to keep at least some
| of the furniture for at least the first few years too,
| depending on their life situation.
| jcrawfordor wrote:
| I think there's a lot of variation within Ikea products,
| and it tends to be reflected pretty clearly on the price.
| In a lot of Ikea's furniture lines they now offer a pretty
| significant range of price points and there is a
| corresponding range of quality and durability, with the
| lower end being trash and the upper end pretty impressive
| for flatpack.
| crazygringo wrote:
| > _but when I was studying, I bought used IKEA furniture,
| moved it around several times to different apartments, and
| then sold it again when I moved from that city._
|
| I think this is kind of like how some people complain that
| Apple USB cables are pieces of crap that are always fraying
| and breaking after 6 months, while other people use them
| for years with zero issue.
|
| It really depends on how you use it, how you assemble it,
| how you disassemble it, is it constantly swaying/weakening
| a little or is it securely mounted to a wall, do you
| constantly slam the cubby door or drawer shut or are you
| gentle? I think the assumption should be that it won't last
| a move, but that you can get lucky through a combination of
| chance and care.
| JambalayaJim wrote:
| The fact that IKEA furniture is self-assembled is a big
| factor here. Lots of room for human error that has
| nothing to do with the design or materials.
| ok_dad wrote:
| I'm not _that_ careful with my stuff, but I have some
| 15-year old Ikea desks that my wife and I have moved from
| the West Coast USA to the East Coast USA, then to an
| island in the Pacific, then back to the West Coast, then
| back to the island again. They are as solid as ever, and
| I don 't foresee ever replacing them, honestly. I have no
| idea how people are so careless with their things, I have
| too many old cables so I have a problem where I never
| have the newest spec cable due to never having to buy new
| ones!
| majjam wrote:
| I purchased an Ikea Pax cupboard and joined it to its
| twin (same model) which Id been given by a neighbor. The
| old one was solid wood whereas the new one was not.
| epolanski wrote:
| +1 never had anything break.
| nradov wrote:
| Selling furniture on Craigslist is a nightmare in most
| places and hardly worth doing unless you're really
| desperate for cash. Buyers will nickel-and-dime you, ask
| for free delivery, flake on scheduled meetings, show up
| without enough cash, maybe even try to rob you.
| oblio wrote:
| I've sold hundreds of euros worth of furniture on
| Facebook Marketplace.
|
| 1. Buyers will nickel-and-dime you - just ignore them.
|
| 2. Ask for free delivery - sucks to be them.
|
| 3. Flake on scheduled meetings - schedule them when
| you're working from home or during weekends, make it
| clear that if they're late the deal is off.
|
| 4. Show up without enough cash - sucks to be them.
|
| 5. Maybe even try to rob you - small furniture - don't
| meet in your home. Bigger items - have other people at
| home when they come.
| ozim wrote:
| It is still my time and attention that is far more
| valuable for me than whatever I would get back for
| reselling Billy bookshelves and the likes.
|
| It works for you, you have headspace and you are mentally
| well composed to deal with that crap.
|
| I'm not, so much rather dump furniture on the curb/trash
| of course after checking with family and friends in case
| they would need or want to take it for free. If they take
| it and sell it off good for them.
| wintogreen74 wrote:
| My wife sells a lot of stuff used and has good luck
| dealing with the flakey-nickel-dimers (the same people
| are typically both) by giving them a price concession of
| $N if they show up in M hours, where N is typically 5-10
| and M is 1-3
| xapata wrote:
| For a long distance move, it's often cheaper to sell and
| repurchase than move furniture.
| dbg31415 wrote:
| > IKEA has always fallen apart when you try to move it...
|
| I've had the same Ikea Jerker desk since 1998. It still looks
| like new, and I've moved across the country with it several
| times. I even bought a few more when I could... they stopped
| making them 10-15 years ago. Best desk ever made. Totally
| modular, so you can canabalize other parts and mix and match
| to get exactly the desk configuration you want.
|
| https://www.thefrugalnoodle.com/jerker-standing-desk/
|
| https://images.offerup.com/mn6NJESc_F7ekPiguDHgD08JNcI=/600x.
| ..
| MrFoof wrote:
| _> And IKEA stuff costs a lot less than 1/3 of finished solid
| wood furniture._
|
| To put things into perspective, I ordered a desk from a local
| company. I had a lot of customization options, but basically
| I wanted a 60 x 30" top. The legs I ordered actually have
| height adjustment ... with a CRANK. Because it'll never
| break. So you have 60-inch long boards, maybe about 4-inches
| wide each, pressed together into a single board. There's
| attempt to match up the pattern, so at a quick glance most
| people would think it's a solid piece. Also not much heavier,
| because there's less adhesives needed to produce the single
| board.
|
| With the top you had choices not only in the type of wood,
| but how that wood was engineered (or if it was a single
| piece).
|
| * If I went with a butcher block construction, which is
| heavier, that was $1200.
|
| * I went with a face-grain engineered walnut top. That was
| $2000 for just the top. Looks great, too.
|
| * If I went with a SINGLE solid board, there was not only a
| real lead time, but the top was $6500.
|
| And that was just for American walnut. I could've picked far
| pricier woods. Could've picked some garbage pine or something
| too, but note the spread there. I think for a 60x30, the
| total spread of options was $500 to $11,000 depending on the
| construction and the wood chosen.
|
| This is because nature is really bad at producing large
| perfect boards, especially for a total area past a few square
| feet. Turns out. A lot of stuff we use even in modern
| construction is not just engineered, but often uses petroleum
| products. Plywood uses a urea formaldehyde, but lo-and-behold
| we figured out how to produce that out of oil! OSB is no
| different. It's why when 5-over-1s under construction
| _(before fire suppression equipment is installed)_ catch
| fire, they go up _very fast_ , and usually burn hot enough
| where the radiant heat damages nearby buildings.
|
| When you get into large single pieces, not only are they
| rare, but you want to let the moisture release, preferably
| naturally. So you have all these boards, being stored in
| large climate controlled warehouses for months if not years,
| before they are used in a piece of furniture. That massive
| opportunity cost of literally keeping boards around is part
| of why you pay.
|
| I have some short "entertainment benches" I bought many years
| ago that were made by Ethnicraft in Vietnam, I believe for
| Crate & Barrel. Engineered face grain, walnut, on a nickel-
| plated steel parsons style base. Got them over a decade ago,
| still look perfect, and at a glance, people think they're one
| piece. They're not, but again at a quick glance they do. All
| in they were $4500 for the pair. I could've got some solid
| ones from a German company named E15. The pair would've been
| over $20,000 then, and over $30,000 today.
| agentdrtran wrote:
| also, people are glad to take slightly busted IKEA stuff for
| free or cheap. It goes quickly in all the facebook groups I'm
| in.
| _fat_santa wrote:
| There's a wired dichotomy that I found with IKEA furniture, most
| of their furniture is cheaply made and won't stand the test of
| time, but some of their stuff just seems to be bulletproof and
| indestructible. Right now I'm sitting on an Markus chair that my
| parents bought for me in the 7th grade (I was 13 at the time),
| now I'm 29 and the chair is still kicking along showing no signs
| of giving up.
| pram wrote:
| Yeah I have an IKEA bed base and it's basically just four solid
| pieces of wood. They also recently made a floor lamp I got
| that's really solid. In closing, it's a store of contrasts.
| asfasfo wrote:
| Almost all of my ikea stuff has lasted longer than I wanted it.
| I have a Poang from 2010, a table from 1998, a bookhshelf from
| 1994, and a dresser from 2006. Their classics last longer than
| most of the market.
| tap-snap-or-nap wrote:
| This is true for all their stuff approximately pre-2018. Most
| of my furniture is older and was great value. Now you have to
| be very watchful of the materials and test it out before
| buying.
| spapas82 wrote:
| I've also got a Markus at the office. Been using it for more
| that 10 years, 7 hours a day. It's still as good as new! Don't
| think of a better price/value office chair!
| Hamuko wrote:
| I love my MARKUS but I think I'm currently on my third one. The
| current one was exchanged during the 10-year warranty period
| since the gas spring started to leak on my floor.
|
| Not sure what I'll do if this MARKUS gives up the ghost too.
| They redesigned the MARKUS and dropped the leather option, and
| the non-leather MARKUS has pitiful armrests.
| basch wrote:
| Like a lot of companies, IKEA sells things in various tiers.
| Dressers and bookcases have different price points, and at each
| price point is a different material quality level.
|
| They however dont make it easy to identify like Kirkland
| Signature or Lexus.
| Someone1234 wrote:
| That's the worst thing about IKEA. They have a great
| selection of real wood stuff, but finding it is time-
| consuming in or out of store. Price is the best proxy but
| that isn't flawless or ideal.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| Unbless it's oak, you don't particularly want to have solid
| wood furniture.
|
| Solid wood is dimensionally unstable and my oak chest of
| drawers requires special oil treatments to keep cracks from
| appearing. Plywood or melamine boards are way better for
| furniture.
| badpun wrote:
| Their "real wood" stuff, at least here in Poland, seems to
| be made from very soft wood, most likely pine (90%+ of
| forests in Poland are pine). The dark variants (pretending
| to be exotic wood I guess) are just pine with a dark
| coloring. When the pine gets nicked, which happens often
| because it's so soft, its natural color comes out, and
| sticks out on an otherwise dark furniture like a sore
| thumb.
| ericpauley wrote:
| My dining set is black painted pine/acacia from IKEA.
| Sharpie is your friend!
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