[HN Gopher] The Old (2018)
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The Old (2018)
Author : keiferski
Score : 109 points
Date : 2023-04-25 11:36 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (neocha.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (neocha.com)
| [deleted]
| majestic5762 wrote:
| [flagged]
| CrimpCity wrote:
| Watching them work at that age made me super sad.
| joseph_grobbles wrote:
| Would you rather they just disappear and die?
|
| When people's dogs become older and inconvenient it is common
| for people to rationalize putting them "down" under the notion
| that it's some great benevolent act, instead of a selfish one.
| "Oh he couldn't jump on the bed any more so it was time to put
| him down". It's gross, but you nod and smile and pretend like
| they're being rational.
|
| Similarly, many people want older people to disappear, and this
| is often masked in some benevolent "it's because I _care_ so
| much " nonsense. People who want the elderly to disappear into
| some home somewhere where they can be sedated until they die.
| They can't jump up on the bed anymore, you see, so it's for the
| best. e.g. "I just want you to _enjoy_ your retirement...best
| time of life...disappear "
|
| A lot of older people want purpose in their life. They want to
| work. _Particularly_ in Japan where there is an incredible
| pride and life purpose behind contributing and plying ones
| skills. I went down a rabbit hole of YouTube videos feature
| hole in the wall restaurants in Japan, and it was amazing how
| often it was quite elderly owners who would show up early and
| run the show, and it was clear they _loved_ having it in their
| life.
| tough wrote:
| I vouched because I agree.
|
| My grandparent is 70. Cooking is what keeps him alive
| tokai wrote:
| What an insulting non sequitur.
|
| "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of
| what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to
| criticize. Assume good faith."
| wrycoder wrote:
| I don't think it was meant that way, at all.
|
| I read the posts in order, and the conversation seemed
| natural and civil.
| tokai wrote:
| I have no idea how you can see it as civil. Joseph puts
| up a false dichotomy where not working as an elderly is
| to "disappear and die". Then some general notion of
| people wanting old people to disappeared is tilled at.
| Non of that has anything to do with Crimp's post, and is
| grossly missing the point of their comment.
| pelagic_sky wrote:
| If you liked the photos here, be sure to check out his Instagram,
| lots of great shots with direct commentary.
| akhayam wrote:
| Let's admit it. We have lost empathy for the old because we don't
| think they have enough "value" to add to society.
|
| I am inspired by the story of Patricia Moore who, at 26, dressed
| up to live the life of an 80 yr old to understand their
| challenges:
| https://www.romankrznaric.com/outrospection/2009/11/01/117.
|
| We need more Patricia's in this world.
| melling wrote:
| That'll be a lot of countries soon.
|
| "By 2030, 1 in 6 people in the world will be aged 60 years or
| over. At this time the share of the population aged 60 years and
| over will increase from 1 billion in 2020 to 1.4 billion. By
| 2050, the world's population of people aged 60 years and older
| will double (2.1 billion). The number of persons aged 80 years or
| older is expected to triple between 2020 and 2050 to reach 426
| million"
|
| https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/ageing-and-...
| lelanthran wrote:
| > "By 2030, 1 in 6 people in the world will be aged 60 years or
| over. At this time the share of the population aged 60 years
| and over will increase from 1 billion in 2020 to 1.4 billion.
| By 2050, the world's population of people aged 60 years and
| older will double (2.1 billion). The number of persons aged 80
| years or older is expected to triple between 2020 and 2050 to
| reach 426 million"
|
| All of this has a statistics smell to it - why aren't they
| giving us the expected percentages instead of the expected
| absolute numbers.
|
| IME, the only time authors give numbers that don't have any
| frame of references is when their argument is weak or
| nonexistent.
|
| "Is the fooflam reliable?"
|
| "Yes - we have had only a single return of all flooflams
| sold"[1]
|
| [1] Neglects to mention they only sold five.
| zamnos wrote:
| I mean, you're asking them to predict the future. And not
| just a few years, but population growth for the next 27
| years. Not trying to predict that doesn't make it a trick of
| statistics.
| usrusr wrote:
| Let's hope so! So much better than being the generation holding
| the bag when the reset happens.
| postdb wrote:
| we don't really have a over population issue, unless some how
| we figured prolong the life span of all people in the next few
| decade. Countries like China will have population deflation
| problem in the coming decades.
| ido wrote:
| It's been long predicted that world population will peak by
| mid-century and then slowly decline.
| dangond wrote:
| It's still possible we'll face lots of problems from having
| too many elderly people who aren't working, even if we won't
| have problems from overpopulation itself.
| kmlx wrote:
| italy in 2020:
|
| > 55-64 years: 14% > 65 years and over: 22.08%
|
| from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy
| WalterBright wrote:
| Having a purpose keeps one alive. One of those purposes can be
| working productively.
| [deleted]
| Aaronmacaron wrote:
| Seems to be down
|
| http://web.archive.org/web/20230425113650/https://neocha.com...
| Wronnay wrote:
| http://archive.today/GuUdf
| endre wrote:
| aaand it's slashdotted
| usrnm wrote:
| On the other hand, these photos show us a country where old
| people can live a full life regardless of their age. They are
| working, they have something to do and the society doesn't just
| shove them aside as some goods past their expiration date.
| edw519 wrote:
| _society doesn 't just shove them aside as some goods past
| their expiration date_
|
| You mean like how I.T. management treats programmers over 50?
| Doofus20230425 wrote:
| They say "thank you consultancy for sending us an experienced
| consultant"?
| theWreckluse wrote:
| It's still an economy of/by/for old people who are
| circumstantially required to work. So, I cannot feel the same
| emotion that your comment portrays.
| bedane wrote:
| Having to work at 80 is not a good thing
| usrnm wrote:
| Having to retire isn't particularly nice, either
| pezezin wrote:
| Exactly. These people keep working at 80 because their
| pensions are shit, not because they enjoy it. Well, some of
| them do enjoy it because they don't have any hobby and don't
| know how to enjoy their retirements, they just know how to
| work, which is equally depressing.
| swexbe wrote:
| Feeling like you're productive can feel pretty nice.
| pezezin wrote:
| At least in my culture, older people feel productive by
| focusing on their family and friends. I prefer that to
| working until you die, but to each their own.
| Towaway69 wrote:
| I read somewhere old people in Japan commit crimes in order
| to land in prison because life there is better.
|
| But I stand corrected if this is an urban myth.
| pezezin wrote:
| I live in Japan and heard the same story from Japanese
| people, so sadly it seems not to be a myth. It is not
| super common either, but it is pretty sad that it happens
| at all.
| [deleted]
| tough wrote:
| Actually, the japanese do offer this jobs to their elderly,
| out of compassion and duty, not exploitation.
|
| Being without work, and without family, means being nothing,
| means abandoning yourself and dying.
|
| I remember reading how many offices and what not keep -easy-
| jobs for the elderly if they don't want to retire.
|
| Here in the west they will put you in an old-person house
| hoping you die sooner so they can inherit the house or
| whatever.
|
| WTF
| tough wrote:
| Yes, it's about money too, obviously. But still, not quite
| the same.
|
| https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/10/17/business/senio
| r...
| emptyfile wrote:
| [dead]
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| > Being without work, and without family, means being
| nothing, means abandoning yourself and dying.
|
| No it doesn't. Or at least it doesn't if you refuse to
| accept that attitude. If you have enough income to live and
| a little left over you can take charge of your life.
|
| I was afraid that I would be at a loose end with nothing to
| do when I retired at 62. But now like many of my friends I
| just wonder how I ever had time to hold down a job. Of
| course I am slightly privileged because I had a reasonably
| well paying job and have accumulated enough money to be
| comfortable.
|
| It's not lack of work that makes life difficult, it is lack
| of money.
| stinos wrote:
| Moreover science seems to agree that keeping on moving, no
| matter at what age, is related to lower stress levels and
| higher lifespan. In other words: not wanting to retire
| might actually keep you alive longer and with a higher
| quality life compared to for instance a sedentary
| lifestyle. I mean I understand where these 'oh poor people
| still having to work makes me sad' comments are coming
| from, but also for me personally I'd rather be doing
| something (something, not anything, that is) I somehwat
| like at that age than having to spend days mostly sitting
| down.
| kmlx wrote:
| why is it not a good thing?
| shortrounddev wrote:
| Keeps you alive
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Depends on where you live.
|
| In Japan, your vocation is a really big deal.
|
| People have been known to commit suicide, when they have been
| let go.
|
| It's really easy to be dismissive, and project our own
| society's norms onto others, with a _" That's so silly! Why
| don't they just..."_ modifier, but that's just so silly.
|
| I've been to Japan a lot (Tokyo, mostly). I used to work for
| a Japanese corporation, and traveled there regularly. I
| had/have many Japanese friends.
|
| Personally, I could not live in that society. There's a lot
| of stuff that would be far too grating for me, but there's
| also some really awesome stuff.
|
| The same can be said for any society.
| [deleted]
| Qem wrote:
| It's only cute while there's enough young people around to soak
| the necessary nasty/heavy/dangerous/grueling jobs, leaving
| comparatively lighter stuff for elderly people to do. Once the
| demographic collapse forces elders to pick these other
| activities as well, people will stop romanticizing it.
| AzzieElbab wrote:
| What would keep you from being like them at their age?
| dangus wrote:
| Probably the car-dependent infrastructure of North America.
| You can't get anywhere or do anything unless you can drive a
| vehicle.
|
| My grandmother depends on her independent living facility's
| bus shuttle to get anywhere. There is no public bus and no
| destinations reachable by walking or transit. Zero.
|
| In these photos I see a country where infrastructure is so
| good that the elderly manage to run full blown businesses,
| and where elderly live healthy longer since they aren't
| living their lives sitting on couches on wheels in the
| McDonald's drive thru.
| wrycoder wrote:
| Here in rural New England, it's snow, ice and slush for
| months of the year. Bicycles and even motorcycles are
| unworkable for most, especially the elderly.
|
| The investment necessary to install and operate public
| transportation that operates on fixed routes and schedules
| is completely infeasible. There isn't even a single taxi or
| Uber in town - they didn't pay.
|
| A century ago, this area was full of small farms, which
| were self-sufficient and people would make it an entire
| winter without leaving their property. Those days are gone.
| The same would have been true for rural Japan, though the
| latter had a higher density of small towns and small
| crafts, e.g. tofu makers within walking distance.
|
| Mass transit works great in Tokyo, where these pictures
| were taken, and it works worldwide at similar population
| densities, better than cars.
|
| Rural US has chosen the privately owned car as its
| transportation system. It works well. Perhaps it can be
| augmented with roboUbers, but remember the issues with
| electric scooters!
| dangus wrote:
| It's time to stop making excuses. I'm coming at you with
| receipts.
|
| This is interesting that you say that you can't bike in
| the winter, Finnish people have no trouble biking in the
| winter:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
|
| It also seems odd that it's no problem to plow and salt a
| gigantic interstate highway system in the USA but somehow
| it's impossible to clear some small bike lanes.
|
| Before you say "only fit people can cycle," Netherlands
| has microcars that the elderly and disabled can use on
| bike lanes:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9ly7JjqEb0
|
| It's weird that you say that installing and operating
| mass transportation is "completely infeasible" when
| that's the status quo in Japan.
|
| Rail in Japan: (Wikipedia)
|
| Ridership: 7.589 billion (2014)
|
| Passenger km: 260 billion (2014)
|
| System length
|
| Total: 30,625 km
|
| Electrified: 21,600 km
|
| Rail in USA: (Wikipedia)
|
| Ridership: 549,631,632
|
| 29 million (Amtrak only) (2014)
|
| Passenger km: 10.3 billion (2014)
|
| How _does_ a country with less than half the population
| of the USA take 15x the trips and ride 26x the kilometers
| when their population density is only 10x higher. And,
| really, if you just talk about major population centers
| on the coasts and Midwest, the USA doesn 't look crazy
| different than Japan. The Northeast Megalopolis has 3x
| higher population density than Japan.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_megalopolis
|
| For example, this very rural line with a single rail car
| has a more frequent timetable than Amtrak's Chicago to
| Milwaukee train, which connects two large metro areas
| that are within feasible commuting distance:
|
| Video of the line demonstrating how rural it is. Each
| train only has one car!
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIRlmM8wI1g
|
| Timetable (PDF link)
|
| https://www.akita-
| nairiku.com/timetable/pdf/20220312_02timet...
|
| It's also weird that you say that this can only work in
| places with high population density, when we know that's
| not the case. The population of Denmark is similar to
| Indiana, with Indiana beating Denmark in population
| density, and the population of Sweden is similar to Ohio,
| with Ohio having 10x Sweden's population density.
|
| Explain then why there's no passenger train from
| Chicagoland (same size as _all_ of Sweden) to Columbus,
| Ohio (same size as Copenhagen), a distance of 350 miles
| (which includes passing through two other sizable
| cities), but I can get on a high speed train from
| Copenhagen to Stockholm and cross into a different
| country covering a driving distance of about 400 miles.
|
| We also know density has nothing to do with it because
| the USA was built almost entirely on rail. There are
| hundreds if not thousands of railroad town in the USA.
|
| https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-Railroad-Network-
| in-...
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/apr/03/mapped-
| histor...
|
| > Rural US has chosen the privately owned car as its
| transportation system. It works well.
|
| Does it work well? Car crashes are the #2 accidental
| killer behind guns (used to be #1). The USA's traffic
| death rate per 100,000 people is 6x higher than Sweden
| and 3x higher than Japan:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffi
| c-r...
| PhasmaFelis wrote:
| There's not much else you can do in rural areas, but the
| problem in the US is that many major cities are the same
| way.
| jimbob45 wrote:
| Other countries just don't understand the reality of how
| much bigger the US is than them. Also it's always a stab
| against America and not Canada or Australia, both of
| which share the same problems of size.
| rkuska wrote:
| I would recommend you to go and watch What Owning a Japanese
| Public Bath is Like[0]. While the video is supposed to be about
| running an onsen I think it is more about love, aging, family and
| importance of not being idle. It is very touching.
|
| (fyi Life Where I'm From is one of the best channels on youtube
| with high quality content) [0]
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcPGdM76O2U
| 01648599160 wrote:
| [dead]
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