[HN Gopher] Technology of water in ancient Iran from prehistory ...
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Technology of water in ancient Iran from prehistory to the Islamic
Golden Age
Author : benbreen
Score : 132 points
Date : 2023-04-24 17:44 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nature.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com)
| ginger2016 wrote:
| Glad to see ancient Iranian culture featured here. People in the
| west have a lot of misconceptions about Iran. Persian culture is
| thousands of years old.
| chocolatelab82 wrote:
| I agree. Not to mention Farsi has some of the most beautiful
| proverbs.
| jagaerglad wrote:
| Just a minor pet peeve but why not keep calling the language
| "Persian" in English? Just how it doesn't feel entirely right
| to suddenly start calling Spanish "Espanol" in English, or
| Swedish as "Svenska" and so on
| InitialLastName wrote:
| My (open to correction) understanding was that "Farsi" has
| some use in referring to the Iranian standardization of
| Persian (as contrasted to Dari, its Afghani counterpart).
| behnamoh wrote:
| Both are correct. "Farsi" is actually the Arabic version
| of "Parsi" (meaning "Persian" in, well, Persian). As a
| Persian, I personally don't use "Farsi".
| rvense wrote:
| Yes, it is useful when you want to contrast Iranian
| Persian with other varieties used in Afghanistan,
| Tajikistan etc., but when talking about all of them
| together it is confusing.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| If they ever wanted to increase tourism, just consider:
|
| 1. Would you like to visit Persia?
|
| 2. Would you like to visit Iran?
| ybinator604g3 wrote:
| It is so unfortunate. I am from Iran and I much prefer
| the current name. It's an ancient name that includes not
| only Persians, but also Medians, Partians, etc. Iran has
| been multi cultural since old times and it's nice to have
| an inclusive name. I believe after we throw the occupiers
| (mullahs) out, we have a lot of work to do.
|
| The only weird thing with the name Iran, is that it
| literally means "The Land of Aryans" which got a bad rep
| after Nazis (rightfully so).
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| If you ever get a chance, read "the education of Cyrus"
| by Xenophon. It is so good. The way he brought together
| so many cultures is amazing.
|
| It's not just about an empire for the Persians. (But
| Persia is pretty good branding, that's all)
| samstave wrote:
| And where modern Maths come from... Mosques tile
| embellishments are actually 2d representations of 4th
| dimensional math concepts...
|
| -
|
| Jeasus I have to explain this on HN?
|
| --
|
| https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11235-medieval-
| islami...
|
| https://muslimheritage.com/new-discoveries-in-the-islamic-
| co...
|
| etc... much learning you need
| voz_ wrote:
| Iranian culture is beautiful. Food, architecture, music,
| literature. All corrupted by the ayatollah and fanatic
| religious powers that dominate the country. It is unfair to
| blame the west for its misconceptions when the outward
| presentation of that country is currently so anti-western,
| corrupt, and oppressive.
| soperj wrote:
| They were replacing a West installed dictator... Don't know
| if it's entirely the Ayatollah's fault here.
| eternalban wrote:
| There was no installation. Please stop repeating IRI's
| propaganda line. Iranian society was divided between
| nationalists, fundamentalists, and communists.
|
| The "Ayatollah's" in fact started the mess by assassinating
| the previous prime minister (who is never discussed) who
| was also "democratically elected". This was not the first
| Islamist terror in Iran. Again this is before the counter-
| coup of '53. (Yes, the first coup detat was by the famous
| "democratically elected PM", Mr. Mossadeqh.)
|
| Iran had a constitution that precisely defined the roles of
| the Majlis (parliament) and the monarch. This monarch was
| sworn in as king in the Majlis way before '53. Kindly
| explain how he was "installed" in '53 by the CIA.
|
| The "Islamic Republic" is a blight in the history of Iran
| _and_ Islam. Their little project of creating the Islamist
| Vatican is an abomination in Islam. Their ridiculous
| "Supreme Leader" is another abomination, both for Iran and
| again for Islam. Islam is the religion of deliberation of
| assemblies and no man is "supreme" amongst the Muslims.
| propagandist wrote:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27eta
| t
|
| Let's call it instigation.
| hobo_in_library wrote:
| The CIA literally admitted to master-minding and funding
| the coup
|
| Weird that anyone is still in denial after that
| eternalban wrote:
| The CIA is an intelligence agency and has no obligation
| to tell the truth.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > This monarch was sworn in as king in the Majlis way
| before '53. Kindly explain how he was "installed" in '53
| by the CIA.
|
| Basically, the Shah assumed direct rule in an autocoup
| (after a first failed autcoup) in an effort he was
| threatened with being deposted by the CIA into
| participating in, with US- and UK- and their Iranian
| pawns both orchestrating pro-Mossadegh anti-Shah
| demonstrations and violence, then pro-Communist anti-Shah
| anti-Mossadegh demonstrations and violence, and,
| ultimately, the pro-Shah military moves directed against
| the waves of violence and lawlessness that they
| themselves had sponsored.
| eternalban wrote:
| The extent of Shah's concessions to US security concerns
| was allowing CIA to create monitoring stations north of
| Iran: listening posts. A section of the secret service in
| Iran (SAVAK) was specifically tasked with keeping tabs on
| Western intelligence in Iran. The second one, which was
| withdrawn after public pushback lead by Khomeini, was
| exempting American servicemen and workers (mostly
| aerospace in Isfahan) from legal jeopardy for any
| offences in Iran. That was rather toady.
|
| Former enemies:
|
| https://www.mofa.go.jp/region/n-america/us/q&a/ref/2.html
|
| "Cousins":
|
| https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/176895/SN06808.pdf
|
| (it's a question of power asymmetries. Really did the
| poor Shah have any choice? Related thoughts: Is the
| Japanese PM "Installed" by US? Is the UK PM a "puppet" of
| US?)
|
| And to be quite frank, as an Iranian born, the assertion
| that some American (Kermit Roosevelt) gets off the plane
| with a briefcase full of dollars and overnight "installs"
| the constitutional king of Iran is bascially a hidden
| insult to Iranians. What sort of a entirely pushover
| nation are they, these Iranians? It's a bad propaganda
| joke.
|
| Secondly, the fact remains that the roughly 14 years
| (60s-early70s) that Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, yes as an
| autocract oversteppingn the bounds of the constitution,
| ran the place, Iran experienced its singularly most
| spectacular years in the 20th century. And the social
| progress, specially women's rights, are all due to the
| efforts of that man and his "regime".
|
| US has nothing to apologize to Iran about viz a vis the
| Shah other than backstabbing a loyal ally in a time of
| crisis, and actively helping to usher in _an entirely
| alien_ system, the "Islamic Republic of Iran"*, to
| power.
|
| US chose Islamic Fundamentalism as a stretegic tool to
| further its geopolitical goals, and unleashed the hords
| on the world. US does need to come clean about that.
|
| * (3 lies in one name, a world record!): It is not a
| republic. It is not Islam. And it certainly is not
| Iranian.
| voz_ wrote:
| It's been 44 years, I think we need to stop giving
| countries a pass like this, at a certain point, their
| destiny is their own.
| andrepd wrote:
| Counties live in the shadow of things that happened
| thousands of years ago... 44 years is barely a
| generation.
| forgetfulness wrote:
| The Iranian regime is absolutely brutal at repressing
| revolt, the revolts are also violent but of course
| nothing can match a state apparatus that has to shut the
| country to the outside world to hide the massacre; the
| country has been in a state of civil unrest for the
| better part of the past 6 years and I count the Wikipedia
| estimates at some 4000 dead from the response of state
| actors.
| istajeer242 wrote:
| You do realize that western policies to this day have
| emboldened the mullahs in power? These sanctions just
| increase their control, and US govt obviously knows it.
| So much border trade occurs in spite of the actions, and
| mullahs garner more control. Nuclear deal was another
| case.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| Yeah, why haven't they overthrown a brutally repressive
| regime? Haven't they heard of Ghandi?
|
| Please - don't do this. You don't know how hard it is for
| revolutions to succeed
| user982 wrote:
| For all of those 44 years, the US has been continuously
| sanctioning, attacking, isolating, and threatening Iran.
| voz_ wrote:
| Maybe if they didn't sponsor terrorism around the world,
| while oppressing their own people, they wouldn't get
| sanctioned? The find out part of fuck around doesn't mean
| they don't control their own destiny. Plenty of normal
| countries to look at for example.
| andrepd wrote:
| That's a weak argument, as we (the West) sponsor many
| terrorist or oppressive regimes as long as it is in our
| economic or political interest. The US sponsored brutal
| and even genocidal regimes from Guatemala to Timor.
|
| Talking about morality and "fighting terrorism and
| oppression" is laughable.
| factorialboy wrote:
| This is so true. The original Persian culture is best preserved
| in India among the dwindling Parsi community. These are the
| original Persians who escaped to Gujarat, India during the
| Islamic colonization of Persia.
| cactusplant7374 wrote:
| Once I get a second passport I'm planning to go to Iran. I
| studied Farsi in college and visiting Iran has been a dream of
| mine for a long time. With the second passport I'm hoping it's
| accepted so I can travel freely without a tour guide.
| falaki wrote:
| You may also enjoy Tajikestan. You should have no political
| restrictions to travel there.
| [deleted]
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| > Persepolis Fortification Tablets, dated back to 492-457 BC in
| the reign of Darius the Great, are characteristic examples of the
| Achaemenid records, most of which have not been translated (Root,
| 1997). Of the ~30,000 clay tablets (10,000 intact pieces, 10,000
| more or less complete ones, and probably more than 10,000
| fragments), 2100 texts were transcribed, interpreted, and
| published (Jones and Stolper, 2008)
|
| This is a great example of something I wish more people knew--
| there exist so many historical texts that are untranslated. I
| work on Latin and Greek texts--I just can't believe the stuff
| that has never been translated.
| falaki wrote:
| Another shocking historical fact: cuneiform script was first
| deciphered using the Behistun Inscription, which has the same
| text in three different languages. But then, Persian texts were
| completely ignored by historians and all the attention shifted
| to other Mesopotamian tablets.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behistun_Inscription
| ybinator604g3 wrote:
| Maybe a bit off topic but it's always strange when someone says
| "Islamic Golden Age" when talking about Iran. Nothing against a
| specific religion. It's like saying Newton's work came during
| Christian Golden Age in Europe. The religion had nothing to do
| with it. In fact, there is a book [1] (in Persian) title "Two
| Centuries of Silence" that talks about the significant blow to
| Iran's culture, literature and science after Arab invasion [2]
| that it took two hundred years to somehow get back on track.
|
| [1] https://web.sas.upenn.edu/persian/2018/09/06/talk-two-
| centur...
|
| [2] Since I've mentioned this, I need to add that the focus of my
| statement is the nature of such "invasion" and not a certain
| ethnicity. No malicious intent here. If you are an Arab and
| reading this, hello neighbors! with love from Iran :)
| behnamoh wrote:
| True. During the Golden Age, most Persian scholars and
| scientists had to write their books in Arabic to preserve them
| in libraries. Most Persians had to choose Arabic names. That's
| why when people see a Persian mathematician like this one
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi,
| they might think he was Arab.
|
| Fun fact: The word "Algorithm" comes from this guy's name!
| someotherperson wrote:
| Persian influence was incredibly important, in fact the Islamic
| Golden Age is marked by Persian customs being absorbed into
| daily living with the establishment of the Abbasid caliphate.
|
| So if you're feeling like it's taking value away from Persian
| history, instead, try to see it from the perspective that
| Persians are a large part of the reason why the Golden Age is
| even a thing :)
| ybinator604g3 wrote:
| The other day I was watching Neil deGrasse Tyson on Joe Rogan
| show and he was talking about Islamic Science and how
| Algebra, Astronomy, etc. come from Islam. I was baffled as an
| Iranian. I get that there is this anti muslim rhetoric
| lurking around and these people are trying to fight it. I
| assume they are well intentioned but in doing so they are
| doing the same thing that they advocate against.
|
| But I like your point of view.
| andrepd wrote:
| Ah the famous historians Neil deGrasse Tyson and Joe
| Rogan...
|
| Better to head to /r/askhistorians with those kinds of
| questions.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| How dare they, the arrogant fools, talk to each other
|
| /s
| agumonkey wrote:
| Seems like a lot of reknowned arab thinkers were from the
| most eastern parts of the arab empire (aka persia). Al
| Kwarhizmi was born near what is current uzbekistan IIRC.
| dendriti wrote:
| It's difficult to separate Persian history from Islam during
| the Golden Age of Islam in Persia.
| ybinator604g3 wrote:
| While intertwined, History and Religion are two different
| concepts. Of course one can differentiate between them.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| Applying labels is always fraught and involves compromises.
| "Islamic World" is well-established and generally recognised.
| It's also more nuanced than hot takes suggest.
|
| Peter Adamson, host of the _History of Philosophy Without Any
| Gaps_ podcast and author of the book series from the same
| project, devotes roughlythe first 20 minutes of his Google Talk
| about Islamic Philosophy to the matter of why "Islamic World"
| is in fact the most useful term to use, in contrast to
| alternatives such as "Arabic" (obviously inapplicable to
| Persia), "Islam" (fails to acknowledge the role of non-muslim
| religions, including Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism,
| etc.).
|
| <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=_NKi-XRZ4KI>
|
| As Adamson notes, it would be more accurate to call mediaeval
| European philosophy "Christian Philosophy" than to call the
| philosophical tradition of south-Western and south-Central Asia
| "Islamic Philosophy", as effectively all mediaeval European
| philosophers were Christian. Adamson also notes that philosophy
| of the Islamic World draws heavily on Greek and Roman
| philosophy (largely via the Byzantine empire) as well as Indian
| and African philosophical traditions.
|
| "Islamic" refers to not merely the religious foundation, but
| the greater cultural, political, legal (Islamic jurisprudence
| is a major factor and influence), etc., etc. As with many other
| contexts, "dominant influence" does not mean "exlusive" or even
| "majority", but "that which has the greatest overall impact in
| a specific area". (Cue numerous tedious HN discussions over
| questions of "monopoly" or geographic applicability of toponyms
| such as "Silicon Valley" (contrast "Hollywood" or "Bollywood").
| nashashmi wrote:
| The reason it is called the Islamic golden age is because of
| the Islamic empire that connected the innovations of the east
| to the west. Muslims themselves didn't directly have any
| contributions other than their philosophy and attitude
| unleashed from a reformed Arabian expansionism. The places they
| touched and the bridges they made changed everyone and all of
| history.
|
| The Renaissance of Europe is directly a result of the Islamic
| golden age. The vikings who conquered Italy sought to learn
| both Sicilian Arabic, and Italian causing a bridge between
| Europe and the middle east of North Africa.
| throwaw12 wrote:
| > The religion had nothing to do with it.
|
| I would disagree with it.
|
| Imagine if, Islam was opposing to the idea of science, as the
| largest religion of that area (which not only included Iran,
| but many others), what would happen? Science would have been
| abolished, stopped immediately. Instead, Islam encouraged
| people to learn more science, even greek philosophers work was
| translated by hiring Christian people.
|
| On the other hand, economic and political prosperity after
| conquering many places helped people to calm down and focus on
| science, helping other people, coming up with solutions for
| different issues.
|
| I think Islam had direct impact to the science of that era.
| BuffaloBagel wrote:
| I think Persians of that era would not make a distinction
| between religious and governmental rule.
| ybinator604g3 wrote:
| Could you please elaborate?
| falaki wrote:
| 100%. As I said in another thread, it took many centuries for
| the majority of the Persians to convert to Islam. Most of the
| population were not even Muslim during the "Islamic Golden
| Age."
|
| A good parallel is the Mughal Empire in India. The rulers where
| Muslim but the population was not.
| whatever1 wrote:
| Religions only tolerate progress when it does not interfere
| with their power. That why religions are cool with math.
|
| Now if you go to physics and biology, oh well depending on the
| age you were born there is some risk of losing your head.
| bsnnkv wrote:
| I found it interesting that despite the protests in the comments
| from users who appear to be Iranian, the authors of this paper,
| who decided on the use of the term "Islamic Golden Age",
| themselves both appear to be Iranian based on their names
| (Saatsaz = Watchmaker/Horologist) and the transcription style
| used (Rezaei).
| Rygian wrote:
| Water management in southeastern Spain, the Alpujarras region, is
| a fascinating topic.
|
| The local communities maintain very precise irrigation ditches
| ("acequias de careo") midway along the mountains. During the
| months of rainfall and snowmelt, the water flowing along these
| ditches is soaked into the ground up to the point where the ditch
| ends because all the water has been absorbed underground.
|
| Months later, the water from each such acequia springs out clean
| and fresh at a specific location further down the mountain, while
| the weather is dry, and can be used for irrigation at a time that
| would be otherwise impossible.
|
| The absolute differences with Iran's qanats are: zero
| infrastructure to develop underground, as all the water
| circulation happens along natural underground waterways, and
| clean, fresh water thanks to the layers of slow ground
| filtration.
|
| It is my understanding that this system was put in place during
| the Muslim period of the Alpujarras, based on knowledge from
| Middle-Eastern dynasties whose people relocated to Spain. That
| seems to match the "Islamic Golden Age" period described in the
| article
| agumonkey wrote:
| so they use the mountain as a buffer to delay flow until summer
| ?
| falaki wrote:
| That "Islamic Golden Age" is a complete misnomer. It hides the
| religious diversity of the geography. Many don't know that it
| took many centuries for the majority of the population of the
| Iranian plateau to convert to Islam. For a good part of what is
| referred to as "Islamic Golden Age" Islam was not the dominant
| religion.
|
| Similar story applies to India. Up until 17th century, India was
| ruled by "muslim" rulers. Should all the cultural and scientific
| achievements of that period be attributed to "Islam?"
| alphakappa wrote:
| Sorry to be pedantic, but not up until, but from the 15th
| century or so (Babur) until some time in the 18th century
| (Battle of Plassey). And not all of India but a northern
| region. Indian history and geography are just too vast to be
| contained in simple phrases (including what I said above)
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| Islamic Golden Age I find is less about attributing results to
| Islam, and more just a shorthand to referring to certain parts
| of the world currently known as "the Islamic World". And yeah
| the idea is that they were Islamic at that time, and maybe
| that's not entirely accurate, but it's not as much "this
| happened specifically _because_ of Islam ".
| breezingfast wrote:
| [dead]
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