[HN Gopher] MouthPad - In-Mouth Bluetooth Mouse Uses Tongue Sens...
___________________________________________________________________
MouthPad - In-Mouth Bluetooth Mouse Uses Tongue Sensitive Trackpad
Author : MasterYoda
Score : 533 points
Date : 2023-04-24 07:58 UTC (15 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.augmental.tech)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.augmental.tech)
| dallyo wrote:
| I wonder what the tongue equivalent of RSI will be?
|
| Jokes aside, it's really great to see innovations like this in
| human-machine interfaces.
| noisy_boy wrote:
| > I wonder what the tongue equivalent of RSI will be?
|
| Throat cancer
| gen_greyface wrote:
| caused by stress?
| dallyo wrote:
| What would be the mechanism of that?
| askvictor wrote:
| There might actually be positive elements from strengthening
| tongue muscles - better elocution/pronunciation, less snoring.
| dhacks wrote:
| Really interesting! Some of my students made a mouse similar to
| this back in 2018. https://imgur.com/a/3irXJnD
| molasses wrote:
| Would love to see the base of products like this open sourced.
| mrep8 wrote:
| [flagged]
| sgt wrote:
| Watch the video. It's not clear before you watch it..
| retrocryptid wrote:
| Because people who have lost fine motor control over their
| hands and fingers cannot exercise fine motor control with their
| hands and fingers.
| sub7 wrote:
| knew a few guys working on an eye tracking mouse (clicking was
| still manual)
|
| pretty cool
| cornhole34 wrote:
| cunnilingus simulator 0_0
| jeffybefffy519 wrote:
| What a great idea, I suffered from really debilitating rsi for a
| few years which affected my ability to use a keyboard and mouse.
| Knowing theres options out there really kept me hopeful.
| 0x08 wrote:
| Can someone with late stage ALS still control their tongue? I
| understand other muscle groups in their are non-functioning by
| then. However, is the tongue still controllable. If so, this is a
| clear game changer.
| ycombinete wrote:
| I realise this is intended for accessibility (for which is looks
| amazing), but I can also see this gaining widespread abled [0]
| use for things like gaming, and making mobile computing easier.
|
| I can see myself pulling out the iPad on the train, and popping
| in the mouthpad to make navigation through Mails, Procreate, etc.
| easier.
|
| [0] I tried "non-disabled" here, but that just seemed too clumsy.
| Am I missing an obvious term?
| pxeger1 wrote:
| "able-bodied" is a common one, but doesn't quite fit here. I
| think "widespread" on its own is good enough to get across that
| you mean expanding to outside the market of disabled people
| proto_lambda wrote:
| "abled" is the term your looking for, yes.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Lick right in Tinder!
| blowski wrote:
| Yes, while we all tend to jump to permanent disabilities as the
| justification for accessibility, one can have situationally or
| otherwise temporarily reduced ability. Examples that jump to
| mind:
|
| * broken fingers
|
| * wearing gloves at a cold station
|
| * a parent holding a bottle while feeding a newborn baby
|
| * a chef working with busy/messy hands
|
| * a computer with a dodgy mouse and no trackpad
| lucubratory wrote:
| Abled is the correct term, yeah. Sometimes we call them pre-
| disabled if we're being cheeky or trying to make a point.
| schappim wrote:
| You mean tongue in cheek.
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| Your sentence makes perfect sense if you just omit "abled", but
| it seems like a perfectly cromulent word.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| Better interfaces will always be valuable. I see no reason to
| believe keyboard and mouse are the pinnacle.
| tyingq wrote:
| One use case that popped in my head was stealthy use, like card
| counting or cheating on tests. Especially if it had some kind
| of haptic feedback.
| [deleted]
| eimrine wrote:
| I want to repeat this in USB2 version and use it for reading
| books. What kind of moving sensor might be a good choice? I want
| something like a stylophone with tongue-controlled five buttons
| (traditional joystick approach) plus tooth-controlled ctrl as a
| regular button. Buttons might be sensed like licking AG4 battery
| (the least 1.5V battery I ever seen) - but I do not understand an
| electronic design which is going to sense the tongue.
|
| 5 hours of active use with no ability to change the battery is a
| shit, let's be honest. It will be 4 hours after 100 full
| recharges, you know this process. Also Bluetooth HID devices will
| never be acceptable for shooters while non-Bluetooth tongue
| controller may be a pivot point in cyber-sport industry because
| of less lag between the brain and the HID.
| mariusor wrote:
| Wonderful idea if it works out. I imagine that the scanning and
| molding of the device can benefit from existing Invisalign tech.
| cortensinger wrote:
| Hello everyone, I am Corten, one of the co-founders of Augmental.
| I must say that it's pretty amazing to see the MouthPad^ make
| some waves in this forum - thank you for your support and
| interest! As you can imagine, things have been busy on our end,
| but I'll answer as many questions as I can.
|
| Our main goal in designing the MouthPad^ is to provide universal
| digital accessibility for all, and to explore alternative input
| modalities for wearable hands-free interaction. The MouthPad^ is
| designed for anyone interested in using their tongue and mouth to
| control their personal devices, including computers, tablets and
| smartphones. In particular, we have worked closely with the
| disability community as this alternative input modality provides
| immediate value. We strongly believe that, in working with this
| community, we can build a better interface for everyone. As such,
| we envision a future in which anyone could have a MouthPad^!
| colordrops wrote:
| This seems like it could go well with AR glasses. Could even be
| extended to scan the mouth and recognize subvocalizations so you
| could talk to it without emitting sound or opening your mouth.
| I.e. a general purpose input device.
| an_aparallel wrote:
| There is something being worked on at NeurotechSC utlising
| OpenBCI's tech with regards to this, "Synthetic Telepathy with
| Subvocal Recognition":
|
| https://openbci.com/community/synthetic-telepathy-with-subvo...
|
| mouthpad + subvocalisation....keyboards and mice are DONEZO.
|
| very cool shit.
| c1sc0 wrote:
| What's the state of the art in subvocalization. I would love to
| have that as a voice input option.
| farhanhubble wrote:
| That would be a game changer, if feasible. I used to wonder why
| no one tried building a transceiver that picked up speech
| vibrations from skull perhaps through the ear cavity.
| pbmonster wrote:
| Those exist. Main application is military/police radio,
| because you can use them even with a gas mask on.
|
| Disadvantages are that you need to fully speak (whispering
| and sub-vocalizing doesn't work), and your voice sounds kind
| of funny.
|
| Keywords is "bone conduction microphone" or "ear bone
| microphone".
| [deleted]
| depingus wrote:
| This is very cool. IIRC, in William Gibson's The Peripheral,
| characters in the future timeline would control their "phones"
| with their tongues just like this. I believe they had implants on
| the roof of their mouths instead of a prosthetic, but basically
| the same concept.
| jack_riminton wrote:
| Great idea! Does anyone know what the current state of brainwave
| navigation is? I saw a flurry of investment in new startups over
| the last 5 years but it's all gone a bit quiet
| zamnos wrote:
| It turns out that the promised innovations never came, not
| without having to put in way more work training the brain than
| buyers of a toy wanted to put in.
|
| You can buy a Neurosky off eBay to play with for < $200 if
| you're really interested in trying to do said training.
| jimmySixDOF wrote:
| I am half way through "The Battle for Your Brain: Defending the
| Right to Think Freely in the Age of Neurotechnology" by Nita A.
| Farahany [1] and it is not a matter of if; but of when. I can
| only guess that the same advances in transformers etc that are
| buzzfeeding the LLM space right now will also accelerate BMI
| systems. Introducing new input and output sensory pathways
| between the brain and the world is yet another potentially
| transformational species defining tech for society to watch for
| on the radar screen as if there was not enough going on in that
| department.
|
| [1] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/60784561
| 0xFF0123 wrote:
| This sounds amazing for accessibility - for anyone more familiar
| than I am, is this true? Or are there major drawbacks?
| [deleted]
| yosito wrote:
| Such a simple, feasible, and useful idea. I'm surprised this
| hasn't been a thing for a decade already.
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221517055_An_Isomet...
| yosito wrote:
| 1997! Why hasn't this become mainstream?
| zamnos wrote:
| It requires custom hardware to fit each user's mouth
| properly, and as a medical device, a doctor's note is
| required. Or at least way back when. The FDA may have moved
| on that, enabling this device this time around.
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| Define 'mainstream' ? The market for this thing is pretty
| limited.
|
| And tongue controlled controllers aren't a novelty, they
| are used sometimes, but again - they are mostly one-time
| devices.
| cal85 wrote:
| I've never heard of tongue control devices before today.
| What are you referring to?
| zamnos wrote:
| Likely this one, from 1998.
|
| https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0960-1317/8/2/
| 028...
|
| Unfortunately, Steven Hawking's muscular dystrophy
| affected his tongue as well so he was unable to use it,
| but it was in that context that I heard about it.
| amiantos wrote:
| It's nice to see their marketing is sex-positive at a time when
| it seems like the mainstream Internet is becoming more and more
| prudish.
| biosboiii wrote:
| I must say I thought this was some "become a 100X engineer, write
| code faster by using your tongue!!!" venture capital thing, until
| I saw the video.
|
| Great work, but without having the context of the video it is
| weird.
| LoganDark wrote:
| I love this. Not just for restoring pointing capabilities to
| people without the use of their hands or dexterity, but for how
| unintrusive it is.
|
| How awesome would it would be to use this to control a head-
| mounted display like Google Glass? Imagine if I could be out in
| public and operate a computer without it ever being obvious that
| I'm doing anything--without it ever getting in the way, without
| it ever distracting others.
|
| Maybe we finally have a matching input method to go with those
| contact-lens HUDs.
|
| And oh man, imagine the covert opportunities this would open up.
| Phone not allowed? That's OK, I have a computer in my head. My
| limbs can be full or even tied up and I'd still be able to
| compute. In a threatening situation where I can't move? That's
| fine, I can call for help or start a recording with just the use
| of my tongue, without putting myself in any additional danger.
|
| Plus, tongue control lacks a lot of the issues that BCIs normally
| bring up, like the difficulty of inhibiting random electrical
| signals in my brain. With my tongue, there is no doubt that any
| movement I make was entirely intended. I can be faster and more
| efficient because I can perform actions with more certainty and
| less ambiguity.
|
| I've joined the waitlist. Digits crossed that this doesn't end up
| costing tens of thousands of dollars, although there's no price
| listed so it probably will.
| Gys wrote:
| > Initial 3D intraoral dental scan
|
| > Custom-designed MouthPad^ device
|
| This seems expensive. I hope the future brings a more general
| version.
| zamnos wrote:
| That depends if the 3D intraoral scan can be done by running an
| app and then putting your (open) mouth over the rear camera
| with the LED on, and moving it around until it beeps. Or if you
| have to go into a doctor's office to get it.
|
| The custom design is simply a matter of business process on top
| of a standardized scan.
| flipp wrote:
| Dental offices all over the country have scanners that use
| regular cameras + photogrammetry to create 3d models of your
| teeth. They've become pretty widespread with the rise of
| Invisalign, Smile Direct, and others. These scans can be pretty
| inexpensive, like a few hundred dollars or less.
| eloisant wrote:
| Also creating custom devices for orthodontics is pretty
| common already
| slim wrote:
| This does not need to be expensive. I expect the price to drop
| down with economy of scale
| junon wrote:
| Could be, but I would imagine if they were able to certify this
| as a medical device that it could be covered in part or in
| whole by insurance in some (non-US I would imagine) countries.
| thatBilly wrote:
| [flagged]
| mp3il wrote:
| Well, you haven't watched the video, right?
| yreg wrote:
| Because they cannot use a regular mouse/trackpad? Be it for not
| having functioning hands or using them for something else.
| jackstraw14 wrote:
| just think a little outside yourself and you'll get there.
| qup wrote:
| "Every year, around the world, between 250,000 and 500,000
| people suffer a spinal cord injury."
|
| There's a clue that starts at 0:00 in the video.
| trizoza wrote:
| Wow!
| redder23 wrote:
| My guess is this w8list and the custom devices are a huge cashcow
| for them. I bet they could just mass produce them in a soft form
| that may not be perfectly fit every mouth but fit well enough to
| be used.
|
| What do these things coast? I bet its a fortune.
| mp3il wrote:
| My first impression was What the actual F**, but after watching
| the video I'm so blown away and impressed by how this can make
| people's life better. it's really exciting.
| omgtehlion wrote:
| Nice idea! Is it using nRF52832 or smth similar?
| dmd wrote:
| A lot of people - especially people with impairments whom it
| would help a lot if they know about it - are unaware of the
| fantastic pointer-accessibility stuff that's built into MacOS:
|
| https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/move-the-pointer-us...
|
| You can control the pointer with head movements, and click with
| things like blinks and smiles. All built into the OS, no 3rd
| party software.
| kayge wrote:
| I've been looking for settings like this on my iPhone -- I'm
| probably in the minority here but I'd love to be able to do a
| couple of simple gesture-based commands on my phone. E.g. when
| I'm driving and my phone is mounted just slightly out of reach,
| and I no longer need my screen on and displaying Maps, it would
| be great if I could do some kind of hand wave to lock the
| screen. Sure I could mount my phone closer, or just lean over a
| bit and hit the button, or probably even ask Siri to do it...
| but dammit a [Jedi | Minority Report | Tony Stark ] hand-wave
| would be much cooler :) Pixel phones have some similar
| abilities: https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/9517454
| goguy wrote:
| If quick gestures aren't working: Turn off your phone, then
| turn it back on.
|
| Some tricks never die.
| kyle-rb wrote:
| That was only available on the Pixel 4. They got rid of the
| chip in later phones, due to battery life issues and cost:
|
| https://www.androidpolice.com/google-pixel-4-killed-
| motion-s...
| Aachen wrote:
| A feature nobody knows about which I loved back when using
| Windows was the cursor defaulting to the confirmation button in
| dialogs. Nowadays where everything is web it's less useful I
| suppose, but makes clicking through those dialogs nicely faster
| also as someone who doesn't have a mouse-related impairment!
| eimrine wrote:
| > Nowadays where everything is web it's less useful I suppose
|
| Implementation of cursor defaulting to the _declination_
| button in web is waiting for its hero. Also I need to iterate
| between the all possible _No_ s on a webpage by pressing
| Tab/Shift+Tab key on my keyboard since no one uses this key
| on a web-browser any more.
| npunt wrote:
| Heat pointer is great and I really hope Apple follows it up
| with building proper eye tracking hardware and software into
| Macs & iDevices. It's such a great opportunity to improve UX
| and reduce RSI for everyone by sharing the load among more
| input sources. I've tried the Tobii stuff but it's not great,
| no solution out there has quite nailed the calibration nor the
| UX yet, as it requires OS-level UX changes.
|
| Every input source has a point after which it causes fatigue or
| pain - hands, head, eyes, tongue, feet, etc. The more the load
| is spread out, the better! This MouthPad looks fantastic as
| another input method to share the load.
| anfractuosity wrote:
| There's also a tongue display unit, which consists of a matrix
| you place on the tongue and it outputs DC voltages on the tongue.
|
| "The tongue display unit (TDU) for electrotactile spatiotemporal
| pattern presentation" -
| https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/82729288.pdf
|
| Also see - https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/05/15/seeing-
| with-yo...
| pen2l wrote:
| It seems pretty nifty.
|
| I played around with Tobii eye-tracking hardware half a decade
| ago and was pretty amazed by its precision. I understand now it
| also has Glasses (vs. the model I tried, a tracker you put below
| your monitor usually). Marrying eye-tracking glasses with this
| mouthpad might be a winning combination: eye-tracking being the
| mouse to navigate in xy-space, and mouthpad for clicks.
|
| Kudos to this group for putting out a finished product though,
| can't wait to see it used and iterated more out in the field.
| Loranubi wrote:
| The tongue muscle can be trained. This is also useful for at
| least one other activity.
| systemtest wrote:
| I switched to using a glue stick for mailing letters.
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| That's also a neat way of avoiding the "poisoned reply
| envelope" trick in case someone's trying to murder you
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Or if someone doesn't want to marry you.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ0UngGRsck
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| I can't help but think that there's easier ways to call
| off a wedding
| evan_ wrote:
| I wonder if this has fine enough resolution to allow the
| wearer to input text by writing letters with their tongue.
| worthless-trash wrote:
| If it can be used as a pointer, it can be used as textual
| input. People use existing tools like eye-tracking for text
| input.
| UncleEntity wrote:
| So expect one as a stocking stuffer from the significant
| other?
|
| --edit--
|
| Mavis Beacon Teaches... umm, got nothing.
|
| Ok, I'm done.
| pawelduda wrote:
| Tobii's tech is used in Sony's PSVR2 for eye tracking and it
| works wonderfully with foveated rendering or to point at menu
| elements with your eyes
| simultsop wrote:
| I just tried this in my mind, eyes (point) + tounge (click,
| double-click) would definitely be a great interface combo.
| qup wrote:
| [flagged]
| keithalewis wrote:
| Powered by carbon sequestering unicorn farts too!
| qup wrote:
| I built a little voice front-end for my aging father to
| interact with GPT. He has solved a few issues that would be
| easy with google, but he won't use google on his own. He
| likes that he can talk to an 'AI'.
|
| So it literally is already unblocking some computing avenues,
| for some people. This will grow a lot in the near future, as
| real professionals do serious versions of my toy.
| retrocryptid wrote:
| Be nice.
| bbstats wrote:
| "it's a mouthpad" "you mean mousepad??" "no, MOUTHpad"
| tomxor wrote:
| I heard the firmware is written in Lisp.
| simultsop wrote:
| It also hangs on your teeth
| molasses wrote:
| I guess you can't talk while it is in.
| troupe wrote:
| The form factor seems similar to a retainer so it might not be
| much of an impediment to talking as long as you can turn it off
| and on.
| xnx wrote:
| Are there any versions of something like this for basic media
| controls?: play/pause, next/previous, etc. I've always wanted one
| for biking.
| makach wrote:
| as an accessory to make PCs more accessible this might be a
| revolutionizing device for people with disabilities - what a time
| to be alive!
| acnops wrote:
| What would be best for (double-)clicking? Tongue? Or by biting?
| jimbobthemighty wrote:
| Are the batteries easily digested?
| Susanagalvez wrote:
| Wow!!!! Amazing!! So usefull, not only as assistivetech!!
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I'd like to see more comments from the target audience, at the
| moment the comment section is full of abled people who speculate
| on the needs and experiences of the target audience.
| aaron695 wrote:
| [dead]
| jaggirs wrote:
| I have had periods of time where I couldn't use my hands to use
| the computer due to bad rsi. I used an eye tracker for
| controlling the mouse and a voice recognition tool (talon) for
| typing. However, I couldn't use these for very long because I
| got a sore throat from speaking in a way the computer
| understands, and focusing places with my eyes all the time gave
| me headaches.
|
| While a mouthpad seems slighly superior to an eye tracker, the
| real benefit lies in having more alternatives in my opinion. So
| you can use your tongue when your eyes are tired and your eyes
| when your tongue is tired.
| notamy wrote:
| I have joint+nerve issues and struggle using a computer -- but
| a mouse in particular -- for extended periods. Something like
| this would be game-changing for me; it would be awesome to have
| another input with "resolution"/accuracy anywhere close to what
| the mouse can do. Eye tracking isn't quite it for me,
| trackballs are very uncomfortable (thumbs are one of the
| biggest joint issues for me), ergonomic mice that meet my needs
| are hard to find with left-handed design, keyboard as mouse
| input works terribly, ... so a device like this would be
| wonderful.
| ackbar03 wrote:
| I've always dreamed of controlling my computer with my tongue.
| This looks fantastic
| serf wrote:
| I'm a c-5 incomplete quadriplegic with hemispheric stroke-like
| paralysis that bothers my body all over. Some of it is just
| weakness, some of it is incomplete sensation, some of it is
| total paralysis. I have one weak-yet-functioning hand, and one
| hand that works only via the tone present in the hand as a
| rough pointing-poking tool. I use a manual wheelchair. At my
| injury level I am exceedingly fortunate to have decent trunk
| and upper body mobility.
|
| I have found setups that work for me, and i'm comfortable now
| -- but I wish I had something like this years ago when I had to
| make accommodations.
|
| My main worry in seeing this -- like all accessibility
| equipment -- is that it will be outrageously priced or locked
| up behind some kind of insurance coding so as to capture that
| segment of the market; most medical groups aim for VFW-
| equivalent equipment coverage on insurance, and I have no-where
| near that.
|
| That said : I would love this as a device for TIG-torch
| actuation. That's one nut that I haven't yet been able to
| crack, and I was seriously considering the idea of tinkering up
| some kind of mouth-actuated wireless solution for welding. I
| can imagine this as a PC bridge to an interface that could help
| realize a fine control for the torch.
| d0gsg0w00f wrote:
| > I would love this as a device for TIG-torch actuation
|
| Thanks for the chuckle.
|
| My mom works with people with disabilities and all of her
| clients that I've met are like this--determined and capable.
|
| I imagine there's a lot of people who need help in getting
| these tech setups going with a bunch of trial and error and
| then after that they can independently operate. Are there any
| volunteer groups that help with that?
| serf wrote:
| >I imagine there's a lot of people who need help in getting
| these tech setups going with a bunch of trial and error and
| then after that they can independently operate. Are there
| any volunteer groups that help with that?
|
| I'm pretty out-of-touch with the accessibility/advocacy
| world, but should such a group exist I think that it'd be a
| blast to work for/with them. Giving someone back an ability
| is something that may be minor for some, but life-changing
| for others. I would imagine that it would be immensely
| gratifying work.
|
| I know of groups like AbleGamers that have helped with
| gaming accessibility as well as providing equipment for
| people on a limited-basis. I think they were also one of
| the forces behind the XBox Adaptive Controller, which was a
| boon for some.
| RoyGBivCap wrote:
| > _My main worry in seeing this -- like all accessibility
| equipment -- is that it will be outrageously priced or locked
| up behind some kind of insurance coding so as to capture that
| segment of the market; most medical groups aim for VFW-
| equivalent equipment coverage on insurance, and I have no-
| where near that._
|
| Our trains of though crossed paths here. I was thinking about
| how useful it might be to an able bodied person, if it would
| be fun or even beneficial to use. Like having a third hand in
| gaming would be nice sometimes. Then it immediately called to
| mind how outrageously expensive aid devices like this tend to
| be. For example an actually good hearing aid is like $2,000
| for some reason. And a really nice robotic wheelchair can be
| like $40,000. So with disappointment I assume this thing,
| even if it makes it to scaled up commercial production is
| going to be out of my price range as someone who doesn't
| actually need it but wouldn't mind helping to fund the
| project.
|
| Is the apparent price gouging because insurance might pay for
| it? Or because some people don't have a choice but to buy it?
| gwbas1c wrote:
| > _abled people who speculate on the needs_
|
| A device like this makes a lot of sense for wearable computing.
| I wouldn't assume the target market are people with
| disabilities.
| bpshaver wrote:
| The trailer video exclusively features people with
| quadriplegia.
| zamalek wrote:
| Which is somewhat unfortunate. Having the device go
| mainstream is one way to reduce the cost per unit, or even
| subsidize the cost for people who really need it. Many
| accessibility technologies end up being an improvement for
| everyone.
|
| I would certainly be interested in the device purely from a
| keeping-both-hands-on-the-keyboard perspective.
| fathyb wrote:
| I immediately sent this to my tetraplegic brother in-law. He
| cannot move his fingers so he uses a special device to
| precisely point on a touchscreen using his fist. It makes sense
| to me: other than the fingers, the tongue is probably the most
| precise output device on the body.
| browie wrote:
| It's interesting but I wouldn't use it, partly because I got
| _some_ hand functions still as a quadriplegic, I 'm typing this
| on a keyboard with only my thumbs and I can type quite fast. I
| also have my mouse clicks switched as I cannot move my index
| finger, so I click with my middle finger. Other quadriplegics
| have it worse so things like this would be dope for them. At
| the end of the day, we will adapt to anything regardless.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| I've been wanting a wearable computer with a display integrated
| into glasses for years. A few years ago I got to try one that was
| on par with a Fitbit Versa, which would be perfect for me. (I
| never got one, and now it's not being made.)
|
| Something like this would be perfect for a wearable computer. I
| personally want to try one, but I suspect the cost, and custom
| molding, are too high to "just try it out." I had a 3D scan of my
| mouth a few months ago for a bite guard, and it cost more than
| $700.
|
| One thing that I want to point out is that the battery module
| next to the molars looks _very uncomfortable._
| LoganDark wrote:
| > One thing that I want to point out is that the battery module
| next to the molars looks _very uncomfortable_.
|
| Slip a finger back there and you'll find out it's not
| uncomfortable at all. It's really not.
| pl90087 wrote:
| I wonder if Hans Niemann is familiar with this tech.
| siranushb wrote:
| [flagged]
| kotaKat wrote:
| I 100% would love to try this but seeing the FAQ and the
| "prioritizing close to San Francisco" does kinda suck. I know
| it's still a stupid early prototype but I wish I could register a
| "please let me override your location demands" because I'd be
| willing to travel/go through /some/ hoops.
| wildpeaks wrote:
| If this one is pretty inexpensive and can be bought without a
| doctor prescription, this would be a great improvement.
|
| Out of curiosity, I had looked into getting a tongue-controlled
| device some years ago (to complement an eye tracking interface I
| had made for playing a specific game without keyboard/controller
| as a challenge), but had run into these two blockers.
| matsemann wrote:
| Unfortunately lots of ergonomic or accessible tools are very
| expensive. I guess one part is that they're niche. But I think
| it's mainly that it's often companies buying them (often
| because they need to make the workplace accessible by law), and
| then the makers can charge what they want.
| knorker wrote:
| Do you think it may have some... adult applications?
|
| (cue Mitchell & Webb's sketch about armored scorpion of death)
| zamnos wrote:
| Teledildonics is big business these days!
| pedrogpimenta wrote:
| Watch the video?
| fwlr wrote:
| From the way the cursor moved on the screen and the visualization
| of input with those orange squares, it looks like it operates
| similar to the thinkpad trackpoint. (There's a dose of
| serendipitous humor here - the trackpoint has an infamous
| anatomical nickname, and this device seems to be reminding some
| commenters of a related activity.)
|
| I wonder if they've explored trackballs? Conventional trackballs
| are operated with a single finger, usually the thumb, and
| proponents of trackballs claim it's the equal of (or even
| superior to) a mouse, while touchpads and trackpoints do seem
| slightly limited compared to full-fledged mice. Controlling a
| trackball with your tongue instead of your thumb seems like it
| might be just as effective - maybe even more effective! This
| might be an avenue to make this device even more capable.
|
| (Did I just compare the cunnilingus touchpad to the clit mouse,
| and then suggest adding "licking balls"? Goddamnit, lol)
| stronglikedan wrote:
| I think moving a ball would require more effort that sliding
| your tongue over a static surface, but I suppose it would be a
| better workout!
| kevincox wrote:
| From the descriptions on the website they claim it controls
| like a touchpad, not a trackpoint. (touchpad means tongue
| distance == cursor distance whereas trackpoint means tongue
| distance/pressure == cursor speed)
|
| That being said trackpoint-style movement sounds better to me
| since my tongue has such limited motion compared to a large
| trackpad surface. Unless it is about to be much more dexterous
| than my finger (which doesn't seem right to me, but impossible
| to say without trying) it would be annoying to make large
| movements and repeated large movements seems like it would be
| tiring quite quickly.
| estebank wrote:
| > I wonder if they've explored trackballs?
|
| I'd be concerned with the mechanical interaction of saliva with
| any mechanism, size concerns (this seems like it could be
| operated with clenched jaws if needed, opened mouth for
| extended periods of time can cause pain), and having moving
| pieces that can break or be lost (hopefully not during
| operation, that could be hard to swallow).
| btbuildem wrote:
| What if that part would be in software - interpret the
| movement of the tongue as if it was rolling a ball vs sliding
| across a surface. The device could have a spherical-shaped
| sensor pad instead of a flat one.
| jmartrican wrote:
| Don't feel too bad, in the video on their website one of the
| users mentioned using it to control her dildo.
| millerm wrote:
| Vibrator. :-)
| [deleted]
| tke248 wrote:
| I had an In-Mouth device idea that might have a potentially
| bigger market and easier to make if you need a pivot idea:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/12kunua/explori...
| malikNF wrote:
| Wonder if using this for a few years would change your accent
| lol.
| npunt wrote:
| This would also work great as a non-verbal, non-hands
| communication device. Currently research is being done in
| Subvocal Recognition [1] but it's very imprecise and can
| essentially only get to yes/no answers.
|
| Imagine using this along with something like PalmOS Graffiti [2]
| + predictive text to send silent messages to people.
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subvocal_recognition
|
| [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti_(Palm_OS)
| molasses wrote:
| I'm able bodied, but years back suffered tremendous pain, that
| led to me having to lie down on my back and use the computer with
| a keyboard. And TBH even that was a pain. I got quite far under
| OSX tiger, and browse the web. Use a terminal etc. But at the
| time it led me into thinking about alternative interfaces. And
| the one thing that did catch my eye was 'dasher' for text entry.
| Which could be controlled with a simple pointer. And it did make
| me wonder how far you could go with a pointer based interface. I
| wasn't that fast while trying it out. But could construct
| sentences with a bit of effort.
|
| https://www.inference.org.uk/dasher/
|
| I've been thinking about it some more recently, as AI could
| assist with word completion, and augmenting it with some AI
| helpers could really improve things. And if the idea was
| extended.
|
| Not wanting to sound like an able-ist snob, but interfacing with
| traditional computers with a keyboard is hard. And the interface
| is clumsy. Even touch devices and keyboards. My Mum could never
| use a computer, but she has worked out how to use a tablet and
| find videos on Youtube. I keep meaning to introduce her to voice
| input. As this would really benefit her.
|
| Despite the huge tech leaps with smartphones and tablets and what
| not, I do feel there has been a huge regression in basic
| communication between people only exacerbated by the pandemic.
| There's knowledge available easily at people's fingertips and
| that's great, along with new channels of communication. But text
| based comms have retarded many people.
| lachlan_gray wrote:
| Since when we talk, our tongues tap patterns on the roof of the
| mouth and the back of the teeth, I wonder if AI processing
| could infer what words you are shaping from these sensors.
| Maybe it's possible to input text by mouthing words silently,
| but without opening your mouth. Kind of like how it's possible
| to eavesdrop from just the sound of keyboard clicks:
|
| https://github.com/ggerganov/kbd-audio
| dmreedy wrote:
| Tongue contact might be sufficient (in linguistics, two of
| the axes of "pronunciation space" are "dental" (whether the
| tongue makes contact with the teeth) and "palatal" (whether
| the tongue makes contact with the palate).
|
| There are a number of other dimensions however that are
| equally important in the creation of word-sounds (e.g.,
| whether the lips are pursed, whether the vocal folds are
| vibrating, whether the teeth make contact with the lips,
| where the tongue is located in the space of the mouth [for
| vowels], etc) and would make determination just from the
| dental/palatal axes pretty difficult I think. But maybe with
| enough context, you could get something predictive that is
| more than good enough, even if it's not into deterministic
| territory
| 6177c40f wrote:
| I think you're talking about subvocal recognition [1]. People
| are indeed using ML for it, but it looks like it's more
| complicated than it appears. Still, I think it's only a
| matter of time before it's available to the average consumer,
| which I can't wait for because I've wanted something like
| this for a long time. I do my best thinking when I'm hiking,
| and I'd love to be able to dictate my thoughts on the move
| without looking like I'm talking to myself out loud (even
| though I am, I guess) in public.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subvocal_recognition
| intrasight wrote:
| Several years ago, I was on a long solo drive and thinking
| about how I would like to be able to communicate with my
| computer in a subvocal manner. I stuck my pinky finger in
| my ear canal and "listened" to the deformations of the
| canal as I spoke, and thought "with a deformation scanner
| and good machine learning, this could totally work". Later,
| I registered the domain silentbuds.com to trial the idea
| but never pursued it. Just did some Googling and see that
| there are a few new research papers on this approach.
| jlundberg wrote:
| Dasher is really fun!
|
| Remember playing a lot with it back when it was released. Left
| a lasting impression and broadend my view on input mechanisms.
| bejd wrote:
| Wonderful accessibility aside, that's a brilliant name. It's just
| fun to say.
| 4tzer wrote:
| Unless you're wearing it i guess.
| taubek wrote:
| This could do wonders for people that can't use their limbs to
| control devices.
| passwordoops wrote:
| I worked in accessible tech for the blind for a few years. It's
| awesome that these guys are doing something that could be
| genuinely useful to a swathe of society who really needs the
| help, and I do wish the space got more attention and money.
|
| However, and I hope I'm wrong here, this is looking like another
| case of techies with a nifty looking device that will be
| "available soon" but, more importantly, already tried multiple
| times and either never caught on for practical reasons or doesn't
| present a real improvement over what's already out there (0 - for
| three such mouth trackpads).
|
| I wish the investors and incubators that take these companies to
| market would do a much better job of coaching the founders on
| product/market research with target users so they can focus on
| truly novel solutions to genuine problem spaces that are ignored,
| but would make a real material improvement to quality if life.
|
| As an example, in BlindTech it was the "smart cane", which is
| dumb for so many reasons and will never, ever catch on, but every
| 6 months or so... Here pops another start up with a seed of
| $0.1-1M to go to market! That money would be better spent just
| buying "dumb" canes at a volume discount and reselling them...
| Or, if you insist on developing a BlindTech solution, an app that
| could tell a user when they missed a button on their blouse or
| shirt (I never worked in the paraplegic space, so I'm not sure
| what other challenges the users face).
|
| (0) https://www.disabled-world.com/assistivedevices/smart-
| mouthw...
|
| https://spinalcordinjuryzone.com/info/17816/glassouse-worlds...
|
| https://quad.life/
| [deleted]
| Sunhold wrote:
| Product 1 never reached the market. Product 2 and 3 are very
| different.
| passwordoops wrote:
| Product 1 - failed (why?) Product 2 - identical use case
| Product 3 - identical use case
|
| I want to be clear - it's awesome they are putting in the
| effort to work in accessibility. But why will Product #4
| prove profitable when it is a rehash of an approach that has
| been tried for years without gaining much steam above and
| beyond what is already there.
|
| What is the evidence that their tweak in technology will be a
| major _market_ breakthrough? Is it that much easier to use?
| Is it that much more comfortable? If the answer is
| inconclusive, then best to leave this application and find an
| overlooked problem paraplegics face that really could benefit
| from a technology solution
| npunt wrote:
| Agree that learning from past efforts can be helpful, but I
| think you're shooting things down way too early here. I'm
| not seeing any specific critique you're making about mouth-
| based input being a bad pursuit, in fact the three efforts
| you linked hardly qualify as evidence against the
| opportunity:
|
| GlassOuse - very different form factor, bulky and limited
| appeal to a narrow set of the most extreme users
| (quadriplegics). Probably too early to market too (2017).
|
| Smart Mouthware - what looks like a crowdfunded two person
| team, seems more like a brief project than a company.
| Doesn't seem like a serious enough effort.
|
| Quadjoy - completely different, plugged-in product tied to
| a chair, very expensive ($1400).
|
| There's all sorts of reasons for having many separate
| groups pursue the same idea over a period of time until one
| 'gets it' and defines a category [1]. This includes market
| timing, tech timing, component costs, financing, eng & biz
| talent, how the market opportunity is understood and
| pursued, the myriad of specific product decisions that make
| subtle but important differences in UX, etc.
|
| Just from a tech timing perspective, a serious company
| building something in this category today would have a
| product that is considerably smaller, cheaper, and longer
| lasting than one launched just a few years ago, due to
| component & supply chain improvements. A smaller, cheaper
| device means access to a broader market, including out-of-
| pocket purchases and selling to users who are in a wider
| spectrum of disability.
|
| [1]: I wrote about this process of getting to category
| defining products here, in case its of interest:
| https://nickpunt.com/blog/category-defining-products/
| throwaway049 wrote:
| Even copycat competition might help in that it can lower prices
| for consumers. I use a Penguin mouse and they cost a lot for
| what is just generic electronics in an unusual-shaped housing.
| But I can't find any other ambidextrous vertical mouse.
| passwordoops wrote:
| I agree, more competition is generally better but the
| unfortunate reality of accessible tech is margins are usually
| already very low, and real market not that big [0]. So if a
| price war starts the result is usually a company deciding to
| leave the space entirely.
|
| [0] Yes, there is a huge population of people who will
| benefit from accessible tech, unfortunately very often they
| cannot afford the technology and the funding is often limited
| agileAlligator wrote:
| > I use a Penguin mouse
|
| I couldn't help but chuckle when I saw what it looked like.
| I'm curious, what are the advantages to using this over a
| regular mouse?
| codethief wrote:
| > I'm curious, what are the advantages to using this over a
| regular mouse?
|
| The advantages are probably similar to those of any
| vertical mouse: There's much less stress on the wrist,
| which is important if you're suffering from e.g. RSI.
|
| But since in this case the mouse is also ambidextrous, you
| can switch hands, too. (-> Useful for ambidextrous people
| and, also, even less stress on the individual wrist.)
| throwaway049 wrote:
| Exactly that. It has a flip switch to swap the left/right
| buttons when you change hands, but I never use that as
| I'm used to thinking of right click as index finger and
| left click as middle finger on either hand.
| overthrow wrote:
| For a cheaper setup, I have a right-handed vertical mouse
| (Amazon $20 special) to the right of my keyboard, and a
| second left-handed mouse on the left, and I switch
| between them throughout the day. It makes my desk look a
| little silly, but it works great!
| RulerOf wrote:
| I've adopted a similarly-inspired setup with a tradtional
| mouse on the right and a touchpad on the left. I
| initially added the touchpad to assist with vertical
| scrolling on Mac OS, but now I move between the two
| depending on the task and it keeps my wrists happier.
| npunt wrote:
| Same setup here. Hoping for even more input devices in
| more places to spread the load. For instance there's also
| some folks building ergo keyboard with trackpads near the
| thumbs to replicate the MacBook experience of a trackpad
| below spacebar for the occasional pinch zoom or scroll.
| And having various buttons/knobs for specialized tasks
| would also be great.
| throwaway049 wrote:
| Good idea.
| platers wrote:
| I've never heard of a "smart cane", I'm curious why its a dumb
| idea?
| passwordoops wrote:
| I'll link to an open source project [0] because I don't want
| to throw mud at any particular company, and it is a cool
| _project_ to develop for anyone motivated enough.
|
| Having said that, it's a dumb _product_ because the cane is
| very often beaten up, or misplaced so it 's an expectation
| that it will need replacing every 12-18 months. The
| additional weight needed for the hardware throws off the
| natural balance of the cane making it more difficult to use
| and also interferes with the haptic feedback users depend on
| from a "dumb" cane. Also, the white cane is relatively cheap
| ($20-50 USD) - smart canes are usually $1000+, or if the
| "smarts" come as attachments to an analog cane, they would
| range $300-500 (my intelligence is 2-3 years old, so it might
| be higher now), so out of reach to most blind people. None
| are stand-alone and require synching with the phone, but many
| users who are tech savvy enough to use one of these already
| uses a navigation app, so one of the key benefits (GPS
| navigation) is redundant.
|
| Overall the drawbacks (price, negative impact on usability,
| natural wear and tear) greatly outweigh the possible
| benefits.
|
| Everyone in the industry is genuine, there is very little
| profiteering, and the goal across the board is to improve
| people's lives, but these products are always from young
| techies (student or technically advanced blind person) who
| made an awesome project that should be celebrated. But they
| should also be one-offs and open-sourced, with the money and
| effort spent on launching smart canes that will inevitably
| fail in the market better spent elsewhere.
|
| [0] https://maker.pro/arduino/projects/arduino-smart-cane-
| for-th...
| [deleted]
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Can't wait to see what Kyle Machulis does with this!
| xwalterx wrote:
| Great idea. With every technology advancement that could become
| mainstream like this one, we seem to get closer and closer to the
| brain.
| alanhaha wrote:
| I think this is quite cool! Even for abled people, I can use a
| bluetooth trackpad and doing other things with both hands. And I
| think it's a good way to interact with TV.
|
| However, for me it seems that I can't eat things when wearing it,
| or it can be hard to clean.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-04-24 23:01 UTC)