[HN Gopher] The magic of DC-DC voltage conversion
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The magic of DC-DC voltage conversion
        
       Author : zdw
       Score  : 103 points
       Date   : 2023-04-22 17:10 UTC (5 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (lcamtuf.substack.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (lcamtuf.substack.com)
        
       | crote wrote:
       | > Between the resulting thermal management issues and reduced
       | battery life, linear regulation is seldom worth the pain.
       | 
       | Rather the opposite, actually! Most simple electronics or DIY
       | stuff has rather trivial needs, like USB-sourced 5V->3.3V
       | conversion at a few dozen mA. A simple LDO will cost you about
       | $0.01 in bulk, so your total BOM is $0.03 once you include
       | capacitors. The linked CUI VXO7803-500 module is closer to $2.00.
       | An LTC3240 IC will cost you $1.00, and an AP63203 IC is at least
       | $0.50 too.
       | 
       | Unless your application requires high efficiency, has significant
       | voltage differences, or is handling large currents, there is no
       | reason not to just throw in a dirt-cheap LDO.
        
         | the__alchemist wrote:
         | Current handling in space-constrained situations is what drives
         | me from LDOs. Ie, if space-limited, linear regs top out at
         | 500mA for sot23-5. So, then you need to go switching, along
         | with the slew of accompanying passives.
        
         | ejiblabahaba wrote:
         | A few points:
         | 
         | 1) LM317 and LM7805 are not LDOs. LM317 is a series regulator,
         | which is way more flexible and has some infrequent but
         | difficult-to-emulate use cases. LM7805 is a linear regulator
         | but has substantial voltage drop relative to a modern LDO.
         | Enthusiast/hobbyist space would do well to consider
         | alternatives to the LM317/LM7805 if they're designing PCBs with
         | surface mount components and very simple power rail needs, but
         | for quick and dirty through hole designs there's few well-known
         | alternatives that are truly LDOs - maybe MCP1700?
         | 
         | 2) Enthusiast/hobbyist market isn't too sensitive to bulk
         | pricing. Case in point: LM317 is about a dollar in
         | hobbyist/enthusiast quantities, and LM7805 is comparable. TI
         | lists 1ku TO-220 pricing at $0.65. You're definitely right for
         | real products with mass manufacturing, but hobbyists don't
         | generally haggle over pennies.
        
           | Gibbon1 wrote:
           | They are better than they used to be but LDO's are finickier
           | than traditional NPN pass element based regulators. Unless
           | you need a low drop out regulator there isn't much advantage
           | to them.
           | 
           | Tip for power supply stuff, derate the heck out of
           | everything. Voltage current and power derate by 2X and you
           | usually won't have issues.
        
         | jjoonathan wrote:
         | Agreed. Low-N solutions should optimize for simplicity rather
         | than cost, but simplicity tends to favor LDOs too.
         | 
         | PSA: Watch out for residual flux residue on your voltage
         | dividers! I've seen parallel resistance as low as 50k. If your
         | rails come up at the wrong voltage they can fry your expensive
         | chips! Consider investing in packaged LDOs at the exact voltage
         | you require.
        
       | terom wrote:
       | Nothing wrong with linear regulators in the appropriate
       | applications. In fact, the switching converter/controller IC will
       | generally include a small LDO to generate an internal Vcc supply
       | for the control logic.
       | 
       | Just don't make the basic mistake of reading the 25V maximum
       | input voltage/ 1.5A maximum load current specs for an L7805 and
       | thinking you can pull 1.5A at 5V from a 24V supply - it will
       | quickly go up in smoke. You must understand the operating
       | principals and what "thermally constrained" means.
        
       | mastax wrote:
       | For a good practical guide on switching regulator component
       | selection and layout check out Phil's Lab on YouTube:
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqT_Ofd54fo
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmfLhT5SntE
       | 
       | He also has good guides on digital audio processing and sensor
       | fusion.
        
         | krmblg wrote:
         | His videos definitely helped demystify my prior assumptions
         | about how to incorporate ESP32s or STM32 in my own custom PCB
         | designs (and not deal with external programmers, castellated
         | edge ICs etc or resort to devkits adding quite some vertical
         | space requirements and coming with issues of their own).
         | 
         | Highly recommended channel.
        
       | phkahler wrote:
       | If you replace the diode in a boost or buck converter with a
       | second switch that is turned on and off complementary to the
       | other one, they are the same circuit run in opposite directions.
       | Just an observation.
        
         | ejiblabahaba wrote:
         | You can use this observation to build a "buck-boost" topology
         | that can make the output voltage larger or smaller than the
         | input voltage. This is common for 1sNp Li-ion batteries that
         | need a high-current 3.3V rail - buck from 4.2V to 3.3V at full
         | charge, boost from 3V to 3.3V at low charge.
         | 
         | There's actually a bunch of ways to make buck-boost style
         | converters that can do both functions, like the cuk and sepic
         | topologies. There's also bidirectional bridge converters that
         | can change input and output direction - you see this a lot on
         | hybrid vehicles (12V to 48V or vice versa) and electric
         | vehicles (48V to 400V and vice versa).
        
       | osigurdson wrote:
       | I always liked the switched capacitor concept.
        
         | jacquesm wrote:
         | Indeed. The first time I ran into the MAX233 I really did a
         | double take. How on earth does it do away with all of the
         | supply voltages?
        
       | stametseater wrote:
       | I'm not sure if it's a good analogy, but I think of boost
       | converters like hydraulic ram pumps, which convert high flow low
       | pressure water into low flow, high pressure.
        
       | mastax wrote:
       | I spent a long time afraid of making switching regulators because
       | I heard so much about how complicated they are, failure modes,
       | EMI problems, etc. But when I got over that I never had any
       | problems just reading and following the datasheet
       | recommendations. The layout rules aren't even particularly
       | complex and the datasheets will always give you an example layout
       | to copy anyway.
       | 
       | Of course once I figured that out I found self-contained
       | switching regulator modules like the RECOM R78-K and RPM series
       | which are foolproof and cheap. Well the RPM modules were cheap at
       | the time, but apparently they've doubled in price. Maybe that was
       | an introductory thing or the supply chain got to them.
        
         | ejiblabahaba wrote:
         | During a college internship, I actually debugged an EEPROM
         | corruption issue on a PLC card all the way back to the power
         | supply the original designer had copy-pasted out of the
         | datasheet. The compensation network they had used was
         | definitely not stable, even though it was exactly the same
         | input and output voltages and circuit elements in their diagram
         | and our application.
         | 
         | I've written my fair share of datasheets now, and while most of
         | us are trying to do a good job and be clear and helpful,
         | sometimes the stuff below the spec tables in the datasheet is,
         | uh... less good than we'd like, for any number of reasons
         | (inexperience, no time, someone left halfway through writing
         | the datasheet, someone forgot to clean up copy-paste from the
         | other datasheet with the slightly different thing, etc). I
         | guess my point is: trust, but verify.
        
       | mikewarot wrote:
       | I was helping a friend repair some _old_ (WW2 vintage)
       | transmitting gear. The voltage dividers used to bias the tubes
       | used almost 100 watts by themselves! Quite the contrast to modern
       | electronics.
        
       | perlgeek wrote:
       | Just the other day I idly wondered how LED "light bulbs" regulate
       | down their 230V (here in central Europe, at least) to the ~2V
       | needed per LED.
       | 
       | Although it's from a different starting point (AC, not DC), after
       | reading the article it seems they could use an AC->DC converter
       | and then a charge pump.
       | 
       | Is that what they actually use? Or is there something
       | easier/cleverer when starting from AC?
        
         | NikkiA wrote:
         | LED bulbs usually use the most basic of power supplies, the
         | capacitive dropper[0], the downside is that they tend to die
         | easily.
         | 
         | Also, the LED diodes themselves will often be multiple in
         | series (a string), or series-parallel (several strings in
         | parallel) depending on the bulb, that end up needing more than
         | just 2V, anywhere from 12V to 60V or so per string of diodes.
         | 
         | Sometimes the high power diodes being used are themselves a
         | series chain of diodes on a singular piece of silicon encased
         | in a blob of phosphor, so that the diode package ends up
         | needing 12V or so. These are often referred to as 'COB' diodes.
         | 
         | (apologies for the RAS syndrome, but saying 'LE diodes' or just
         | 'LED' to refer to the individual light elements when talking
         | about 'LED bulbs' is too confusing otherwise)
         | 
         | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitive_power_supply
        
         | wrenzh wrote:
         | For household LED bulbs almost always Flyback.
        
         | toast0 wrote:
         | They probably have a switching power supply, but if you want
         | really simple and low parts count, you'd do a transfomer down
         | to something nicer, have a full bridge rectifier, a capacitor,
         | a current limiting resistor, and then put all the leds in the
         | bulb in series; that way you don't need a big ratio for the
         | transfomer... although maybe that's not a big deal, and you may
         | prefer to not need a higher voltage capacitor, or a more
         | failure tolerant parallel wired LEDs. You could have a linear
         | regulator in there too, but careful component choices may allow
         | that to be omitted.
         | 
         | But switch mode power supplies are probably more efficient and
         | highly miniturized, better adapted to different line voltages,
         | etc. All around a better choice. Some sort of smarts are needed
         | to work well with dimmers as well.
        
       | VLM wrote:
       | The proper way to select linear vs switched is really a flow
       | chart of some applications require super low analog noise or low
       | quiescent current and cannot tolerate a switcher solution. The
       | next step is a complete system analysis including power/battery
       | budget AND thermal for both solutions then pick the overall
       | system level winner. No point in spending dollars of switcher
       | components to save fractions of a penny of battery energy.
       | 
       | Another interesting point is its "generally" easier to buy/build
       | constant current linear sources than constant current switching
       | sources. Plenty of sensor applications where you want to mostly
       | just limit to 4-20 mA or similar.
       | 
       | Final point to make is "generally" with massive hand waving and
       | isolated exceptions, linear sources are harder to destroy via
       | inductive loads and oscillating loads and ESD / EMI impacts.
        
         | hgomersall wrote:
         | As someone that works with low noise systems but on the
         | firmware/software side, is it possible to design a low noise
         | power supply with a switcher, without some kind of linear stage
         | (like a final LDO regulator)? The hardware engineers are good,
         | but I'd like to understand this a bit myself.
        
           | ejiblabahaba wrote:
           | In principle yes, in practice it's rarely worth the cost and
           | complexity.
           | 
           | If you're careful about the converter design (keep the high-
           | current loops extremely short, use counter-rotating loops to
           | tightly confine magnetic field within those short loops, use
           | a soft-switching topology to reduce EMI and sharp edges at
           | the switch node, switch quickly or use multiple parallel
           | converters at different phase offsets to reduce magnitude of
           | current ripple), you can get decently low noise. There's a
           | good Jim Williams app note about this.[0]
           | 
           | But it's almost never worth it to do this, since there's LDOs
           | with two or three orders of magnitude better noise voltage.
           | There's a time and a place for a really low noise converter;
           | usually EMI constrained galvanically isolated converters like
           | medical supplies or scientific instruments need them and
           | aren't too sensitive to the cost or development effort. But
           | even then, you'll often find LDOs cascaded on the outputs
           | just afterward, since a good LDO can add another two orders
           | of magnitude of ripple rejection in the switching frequency
           | band.
           | 
           | [0] https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-
           | documentation/appl...
        
         | PragmaticPulp wrote:
         | > The proper way to select linear vs switched is really a flow
         | chart of some applications require super low analog noise or
         | low quiescent current and cannot tolerate a switcher solution.
         | 
         | Switching pre-regulators followed by a high PSRR LDO with some
         | filtering can work here
        
       | bilsbie wrote:
       | What's the best way to boost a dc voltage really high like into
       | the mega volts?
        
         | hasmanean wrote:
         | For megavolts just rub some cats fur over an ebony rod.
         | 
         | Megavolts.
         | 
         | Aka static electricity.
        
       | bilsbie wrote:
       | How does the boost converter mentioned here work? I'm not
       | understanding the explanation.
        
         | mordae wrote:
         | You really need to design it yourself to grok it. It's weird.
         | Try using Falstad's online simulator.
        
         | ejiblabahaba wrote:
         | Step 1: You briefly short the inductor. Inductors cannot
         | instantaneously change current, so they will linearly ramp up
         | the current over time. This builds up a magnetic field in the
         | inductor.
         | 
         | Step 2: Stop shorting the inductor. Inductors cannot
         | instantaneously change current, so the now-built-up magnetic
         | field continues pushing current into the switching node. The
         | magnetic field and the inductor current linearly ramp down over
         | time.
         | 
         | The forced current will push charge onto the parasitic
         | capacitance of the switch (from switch to ground), the inductor
         | itself (from inductor output to inductor input), and the
         | reverse diode capacitance (anode to cathode).
         | 
         | Since capacitor voltage is charge over capacitance, once enough
         | charge is forced onto the capacitance at the switch node,
         | eventually the voltage from the switch node to the output
         | capacitance is high enough to turn the diode on in forward
         | conduction. The rest of the inductor current is forced into the
         | output capacitance until the remaining magnetic field in the
         | inductor is depleted.
         | 
         | Step 3) Repeat very fast to reduce inductor size and ripple
         | current required (100s of kHz or MHz speed). Vary the duration
         | for which the inductor is shorted in step 1 according to how
         | much charge you need to put on the output capacitor. You could
         | figure this out open-loop by noting that output current at the
         | high voltage side is in charge per second, output voltage is
         | equal to charge over output capacitance, calculating the time
         | taken for the ramp to grow and decay, etc. Or you could design
         | a closed loop control scheme that looks at the output voltage
         | and converts it to shorted duration for you (this is what most
         | integrated circuit boost converters do).
         | 
         | In summary, you dump current into a inductor to build up a
         | magnetic field, then you use the inductor's magnetic field to
         | yeet current up over a large voltage difference.
        
           | SigmundA wrote:
           | I know how boost converters work but reading your great
           | explanation made me realize how similar they are to an impact
           | wrench. Ever wonder how an impact wrench creates such massive
           | torque?
           | 
           | Spin up a fly wheel then let it hit the dogs greatly
           | amplifying the torque through stored kinetic energy similar
           | to an inductor being dumped.
           | 
           | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQzqNnWG21s
           | 
           | I always like how electricity can be compared to mechanical
           | and hydraulic systems, it's not always perfect but there is
           | obviously a lot of overlap between voltage, current,
           | pressure, flow, torque and rpm. Power is the common thread.
        
       | Animats wrote:
       | I designed a DC-DC converter once.[1] This is an exotic
       | application - providing 60mA Teletype signals at up to 120VDC,
       | with power from a 5V USB port.
       | 
       | There are two main trouble spots in DC-DC converter design -
       | protection and noise.
       | 
       | A switching power supply is a dead short across its input once
       | the inductor has saturated. The switch, usually a power MOSFET,
       | needs to turn off on every cycle before that happens. Otherwise,
       | something will fail and probably burn out. Also, the failure mode
       | of power MOSFETS is usually "on". So protection circuitry is
       | needed. Fuses, current limiters, etc. This is why UL approval for
       | switchers connected to the power line is important.
       | 
       | Switchers work by generating big inductive spikes. Those spikes
       | are supposed to be directed into capacitors and smoothed out into
       | DC. Without suitable filtering, spikes will be pushed into the
       | power source, the load, and the RF spectrum. A few ferrite beads,
       | Zener diodes, and small capacitors in the right spots will fix
       | this. LTSpice simulation is useful in picking the component
       | values. You're not done until both the current and voltage curves
       | are flat.
       | 
       | [1] https://github.com/John-Nagle/ttyloopdriver
        
       | azubinski wrote:
       | Oh yes, elementary physics course is full of magic...
        
       | jacquesm wrote:
       | I'd be really interested in a teardown of what goes into a modern
       | tri-phase solar inverter.
        
         | ejiblabahaba wrote:
         | There's not much to it. There's usually some stage-1 converters
         | at a subnetwork of panels that step the panel voltage up to a
         | common DC bus voltage with all the MPPT and relevant
         | OTP/OVP/UVP/OCP/etc. Then the big DC bus gets combined across
         | all panels and fed into a three phase inverter with IGBTs or
         | sometimes SiC FETs (getting more common), which just looks like
         | a hex bridge across a three phase transformer. There's gate
         | drivers (maybe isolated), amps for current and voltage sensing
         | (maybe isolated), some protection circuits, and a half-assed
         | flyback to run the fans and the control DSP. Some models might
         | host an MCU for data logging and comms out to a control plane.
         | 
         | There's a handful of projects where the size of the solar field
         | is large enough to make it economic to step up from 400V or
         | 800V bus. I've seen many 1000V buses, a few 1200V and 1500V
         | buses. Honestly it's exactly the same circuits, just with
         | higher voltage ratings; all your switching elements are still
         | giant hockey pucks, you're still doing a three phase hex
         | bridge, etc. The half-assed flyback is sometimes replaced with
         | something a little less braindead.
        
           | jacquesm wrote:
           | When I was 17 or so I built a simple inverter out of a big
           | 12V transformer and some 3055's (RCA's, not Motorola) which
           | was enough to run most of my gear when it was 'lights out'
           | (or not...). So I understand the basics. But those
           | transformerless sine wave inverters are interesting, they
           | seem to get away with squeezing a 20 KW inverter into a
           | relatively modest package at a ridiculously high efficiency.
           | 
           | On top of that they have to comply with a whole host of
           | safety regulations, so even if the theoretical block diagram
           | is as simple as you've outlined it the actual implementation
           | is likely going to be a lot more complex and interesting.
           | 
           | Any pointers to where I can dig around without opening one up
           | myself would be greatly appreciated, most of the youtube
           | stuff is for very cheap or small gear.
        
       | mordae wrote:
       | > The deal with linear regulators is that despite what some
       | internet sources might recommend, you probably shouldn't be using
       | them in your designs.
       | 
       | Yeah, no.
       | 
       | 1. Linear regulators do not introduce voltage ripple and by the
       | nature of being variable resistors, they form a nice low-pass
       | filter with the capacitors around it. For some sensitive designs,
       | you use a switching converter to step down voltage to e.g. 5V,
       | filter it and then use LDO to get it down to 3.3V with even more
       | filtering.
       | 
       | 2. Linear regulators are dirt cheap. And for e.g. USB devices
       | drawing less than couple hundred mA @ 5V using a regulator to
       | step it down to 3.3V would be an overkill.
       | 
       | Granted, recent Raspberry Pi Pico (for example) does use a
       | switching regulator (unlike other boards in that form factor),
       | but it also has led to complications with power supply ripple
       | showing in ADC readings.
       | 
       | But sure, if you application needs higher efficiency, steps down
       | by more than ~2V or pushes around a lot of current, switching
       | regulator is a better choice.
        
         | bsder wrote:
         | And if your device spends a lot of time _asleep_ , linear
         | regulators may beat switching regulators by a _LOT_.
         | 
         | Leakage current can dominate your design, and switching
         | regulators often have lousy leakage current specs (to be fair,
         | so do a lot of old school linear regulators). Furthermore,
         | switching regulators often have to "spin up" while a linear
         | regulator is just sitting there ready to go as soon as your MCU
         | switches on.
         | 
         | In addition, switching regulators tend to be designed for
         | higher currents and tend to have _terrible_ efficiency at small
         | currents ( < 1mA). If your circuit uses a very small amount of
         | current even when active, a linear regulator may be superior
         | even for constant-on systems.
        
           | ejiblabahaba wrote:
           | Nowadays you can pretty easily find switchers with sub-100nA
           | quiescent current + leakage, e.g. TPS62840 (of course, that's
           | assuming you're at room temperature... FETs at high
           | temperature are all crap for leakage). I note you get 80%
           | efficiency at 1uA out on this device with a 3.6V to 1.8V
           | stepdown config; beats the LDO by a lot, particularly if you
           | spend a lot of your time at uA load currents.
           | 
           | But spin-up time... Yeah that still sucks :)
        
           | 15155 wrote:
           | One can purchase $0.15 TI parts have <0.4mA quiescent current
           | and output 3A. These things draw so little under no/low load
           | circumstances that my cheaper 4-digit readout benchtop
           | supplies cannot detect any draw.
           | 
           | https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps563201.pdf
        
             | otherjason wrote:
             | 0.4 mA quiescent current is _huge_ for very low-power
             | designs though. If your system must spend the majority of
             | its time consuming very little power, that level of
             | constant current draw is a non-starter.
        
             | bsder wrote:
             | 400uA isn't "low"--that's roughly speaking a fully-awake
             | MCU running at 10MHz.
        
       | mschuster91 wrote:
       | There is one case that's missing: variable input, say a USB-C PD
       | powered device that can use anything from 5-20V despite operating
       | internally at 12V (which, iirc, most laptops do), or automotive
       | devices that can run at anything from 6V (motorbike) to 24V
       | (truck, bus) while being tolerant of >100V spikes during load
       | changes.
       | 
       | How do these work?
        
       | algo_trader wrote:
       | Are DC-DC convertors applicable for high-power industrial
       | applications?
       | 
       | Can a mega pack battery output be converted 10kVDC without an AC
       | step ?
        
         | tonmoy wrote:
         | As far as I have heard modern power electronics is
         | sophisticated enough to do that
        
         | ejiblabahaba wrote:
         | This is absolutely something you could do, in the sense that no
         | one in electrical engineering will raise an eyebrow if you call
         | your DC-DC conversion with an "AC" step in the middle a DC-DC
         | converter. There's fundamentally going to be alternating
         | currents in any DC-DC design, but typically at the inputs and
         | outputs it looks like an average DC current with a small amount
         | of AC ripple.
         | 
         | The kind of DC-DC converters that work well for megabattery to
         | 10kVDC conversion will look very different from the kind of DC-
         | DC converters that step up your 3.3V rail to 5V for some low-
         | power peripheral, and may actually have individual components
         | that completely reverse current direction for more efficient
         | current transfer. You pretty much need a transformer to handle
         | the high power transfer and voltage ratio mismatch. Depending
         | on the pack voltage you might use multiple stages cascaded, but
         | typical 400V-800V packs can step up to 10kV in a reasonable
         | number of turns (12-25). The battery pack side probably has
         | IGBTs or SiC FETs driving some kind of large bridge switcher
         | (or several parallel bridges); the 10kV side probably has some
         | big chonker diodes in a rectifier bridge, though they
         | conceptually could be replaced with synchronous switches if you
         | could find thyristors with fast enough switching speed and
         | better efficiency (usually it's not worth it). Technically this
         | topology runs the transformer primary current in both
         | directions (hence the rectifier at the output) so I guess this
         | is the "AC" stage in the middle... But it's worth pointing out
         | that the AC portion is incidental to operation, unlike
         | something like a Tesla power wall using an AC inverter to feed
         | power into the AC grid, and a grid-connected charger converting
         | that back to DC.
        
         | cellularmitosis wrote:
         | Yes, though at that voltage range you'll need to stray into
         | somewhat esoteric parts, like silicon carbide mosfets / igbt's
         | https://www.power-mag.com/pdf/feature_pdf/1461163294_Woifspe...
        
           | nunuvit wrote:
           | Haha SiC and IGBTs are hardly esoteric. If anything, GaN is
           | esoteric. You just wouldn't know it because industrial
           | doesn't get the same press as computer power supplies.
        
             | cellularmitosis wrote:
             | Thanks! Just a hobbyist, glad to hear industry perspective
             | on this!
        
           | algo_trader wrote:
           | x10 for this link!
        
         | jacquesm wrote:
         | Check out the hardware involved in HVDC transmission lines to
         | get an idea of what 'high power DC' looks like.
        
         | VLM wrote:
         | "can" yes.
         | 
         | Industrially, no. You're asking for an automotive ignition
         | without a coil, pretty much not done.
         | 
         | Various logic chopping options exist to be technically correct.
         | If you define a pulse as not being "AC" because its not a
         | constant waveform or its not wall outlet 50 hz or 60 hz, then
         | sorta kinda thats an engine ignition coil. If you define a
         | tesla coil as not being AC because its a resonant ckt with a
         | quarter wave antenna colocated, then sorta kinda sure no AC.
        
         | kwantam wrote:
         | Yes, dc/dc conversion is definitely applicable in high-power
         | applications. As one example, high-voltage DC power
         | transmission [1] is in widespread use globally, and always
         | requires a dc/dc conversion step for connection to local grids.
         | In addition to dc/dc conversion during transmission, converting
         | from DC to AC (known as _inversion_ ) uses essentially the same
         | techniques.
         | 
         | To answer your question more directly: stepping a battery's
         | output to 10 kV is a good example of an application that would
         | almost always be done with a dc/dc converter in an industrial
         | application.
         | 
         | (Aside: "without an AC step" is slightly tricky. If by AC you
         | mean 50 or 60 Hz, definitely can and should be avoided. But AC
         | is generally used to refer to any non-constant voltage or
         | current, and if that's what you mean then the answer is no
         | since a dc/dc converter works by switching, which by definition
         | means there's some sinusoidal voltage somewhere in the
         | circuit.)
         | 
         | (Source: I used to design integrated circuits for industrial
         | control.)
         | 
         | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current
        
           | algo_trader wrote:
           | > almost always be done with a dc/dc converter in an
           | industrial application.
           | 
           | thanks. lots of good details in this thread.
           | 
           | > if by AC you mean 50 or 60 Hz, definitely can and should be
           | avoided.
           | 
           | Yes, i meant avoiding the maintenance and losses of an actual
           | transformer
        
       | amelius wrote:
       | How much energy would we save if we replaced all linear
       | regulators by switched configurations?
        
         | johnea wrote:
         | Already done in most electronics...
        
         | kec wrote:
         | Largely done except when it can't be due to noise / expense /
         | reliability.
        
       | johnea wrote:
       | The "magic" of course, is AC...
        
         | magicalhippo wrote:
         | Not really. AC literally stands for alternating current,
         | meaning the current flows the other direction in the conductors
         | as well. That's not what happens in most DC-DC converters.
         | Instead the current is switched on or off (or this way and that
         | way if you prefer).
         | 
         | As a visualization, the hydraulic ram pump[1] is the water
         | equivalent of a DC boost converter[2]. At no point in the cycle
         | does the water flow in reverse. Same with the DC boost
         | converter.
         | 
         | [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_ram
         | 
         | [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boost_converter
        
           | ejiblabahaba wrote:
           | Technically all DC-DC converters at a minimum have an AC
           | current in their input and output capacitances. Since we see
           | a small ripple voltage across the capacitors, it must be true
           | that the direction of the current flowing in the capacitors
           | is alternating.
           | 
           | It is true that in most cases the inductor current isn't
           | changing direction though.
        
         | labster wrote:
         | Nice try, Nikola, but AC is too dangerous.
        
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