[HN Gopher] Farmers 'crippled' by satellite failure as GPS-guide...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Farmers 'crippled' by satellite failure as GPS-guided tractors
       grind to a halt
        
       Author : mhb
       Score  : 104 points
       Date   : 2023-04-20 17:56 UTC (5 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.smh.com.au)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.smh.com.au)
        
       | fortysixdegrees wrote:
       | In the unlikely event any Aussie or NZ farmers are reading this,
       | it costs less than $1k to setup your own base station and
       | transmit corrections via a number of RF links. One base station
       | is good to a radius of about 60km, so not enough for large
       | ranches but fine for crops. You can setup as many as you need,
       | then no reliance on L band SBAS
        
       | fanf2 wrote:
       | This article doesn't make sense because Inmarsat-41 is not a GPS
       | satellite, so the farm equipment must have been relying on it for
       | something other than "their GPS signal". It would be nice to know
       | what that something was, so that similar single points of failure
       | can be avoided in the future.
        
       | boringg wrote:
       | Hope they have insurance thats covers GPS failure...
        
       | jabradoodle wrote:
       | It's terrifying to think what could happen with a mass coronal
       | ejection or some other catastrophic event. When you see events
       | like this and the Ever Given incident.
       | 
       | We've built a very complex distributed system that lacks
       | resiliency in some very serious ways.
        
         | cellularmitosis wrote:
         | This is perhaps a hyperbolic. Self-driving tractors can always
         | be driven by hand when needed.
        
       | ineedasername wrote:
       | It amazes me that we've been able to fine tune optimal
       | agricultural practices to the point the a GPS system is a key
       | tool in precision & optimized land usage.
        
       | uniqueuid wrote:
       | It's kind of surprising that single satellites can still be so
       | crucial, given that we have at least three operational navigation
       | systems which phones can easily use (GPS, GLONASS, BeiDou and
       | Galileo). Are those not all truly global?
        
         | abfan1127 wrote:
         | While these may be truly global, I don't know that all "GPS"
         | satellites are. They reference a specific brand of satellites.
         | Their website mentions that this satellite only services the
         | asian pacific region.
        
         | bluGill wrote:
         | This is a navigation satellite, it is a communication satellite
         | that sends information you cannot get via GPS. The speed of
         | light in the atmosphere is not a constant, this satellite is
         | sending corrections so you can account for that (that is there
         | is some other GPS 'near' you, at a known location, and then it
         | compares where GPS says it is to where it really is and you
         | subtract that difference).
        
       | fsckboy wrote:
       | I'm a little too lazy to read the article (I'm not super
       | interested, and I'm sure experts are solving the problem as we
       | speak) but I'm curious about "gentle degradation" or "fail-safe"
       | modes: If the satellite/location correction data is not
       | available, does the positioning just get worse by (I think I
       | read) 4%, or did they not anticipate this type of failure and the
       | equipment is actually stuck and useless?
        
         | michaelt wrote:
         | The tractor can always be driven by hand. Tractors have not
         | literally "ground to a halt".
         | 
         | The systems that have failed are those using GPS with
         | differential corrections, which achieve ~2cm accuracy for
         | 'precision agriculture' (tractor auto-steer, making efficient
         | use of chemicals by only spraying them precisely on the plant,
         | etc)
         | 
         | The degradation is they now only have normal GPS which is
         | accurate to within a few meters - but that's useless for
         | precision agriculture.
        
         | eschneider wrote:
         | This is literally my day job. It's a gentle degradation.
        
       | pinewurst wrote:
       | What does Inmarsat (failed sat is Inmarsat-4 F1) have to do with
       | the GPS constellation which is US Government operated?
        
       | oakwhiz wrote:
       | This seems like a great use for having a differential RTK GPS
       | receiver at a known good location at the edge of a property. Once
       | it's set up, the moving receiver can use the stationary receiver
       | as a source of correction instead of relying on SBAS or WAAS.
        
         | bluGill wrote:
         | So long as the known location GPS has power, hasn't been hit by
         | lightening, hasn't be stolen by local kids, and the radio
         | signal can reach your GPS (this is a big one - some farmers do
         | this, but they have one GPS at home and sometimes it cannot
         | reach all the fields), or any other the other things that can
         | go wrong.
        
       | causi wrote:
       | _Katie McRobert, general manager at the Australia Farm Institute,
       | said Australian farmers sourced their GPS signal from one
       | satellite, which was a critical risk to rural industries._
       | 
       |  _All that went out the window when the Inmarsat-41 satellite
       | signal failed._
       | 
       | Can somebody who actually knows what happened fill us in? Because
       | saying you depended on _one_ satellite for GPS makes no sense.
       | Based on the article as-written, this is headline is wildly
       | misleading. The tractor failure has fuck-all to do with GPS. It
       | sounds like their satellite data link failed and the tractors
       | shut down without a control signal.
        
         | tivert wrote:
         | > Can somebody who actually knows what happened fill us in?
         | Because saying you depended on one satellite for GPS makes no
         | sense.
         | 
         | I have no real knowledge of this, but maybe they were relying
         | on that satellite to transmit DGPS corrections for their region
         | or something, to improve accuracy.
         | 
         | Edit: Found this while replying to a now-deleted comment:
         | 
         | Even if it's not exactly DGPS, it seems like it's some kind of
         | accuracy-improvement service:
         | 
         | https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2023-04-18/inmarsat-i-4f1-...
         | :
         | 
         | > He has got a workaround for now, using the old free-to-air
         | GPS that is a lot less accurate, but he said he was
         | disappointed with the lack of information on the outage.
         | 
         | IIRC, regular GPS positions have an error of at least a few
         | meters, which is not good enough if you're trying to plant
         | crops.
         | 
         | Edit2: Just digging around, I found this:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNSS_augmentation#Satellite-ba...
         | 
         | > The Australian SBAS [Satellite-based augmentation system]
         | using Inmarsat 41, which famously suffered a failure in April
         | 2023.[6][7]
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | MarkusWandel wrote:
         | The article does say that without the GPS service, they are 4%
         | less efficient (in terms of slightly overlapping swathes of
         | seeds/fertilizer/whatever) and this is enough to be
         | uncompetitive. Back when I was a kid on a family farm, accurate
         | within 4% would have been great (with manually driven
         | tractors)!
        
         | Animats wrote:
         | It's a commercial GPS correction service. It corrects for
         | atmospheric conditions which affect RF propagation slightly.
         | There are many ground stations which receive GPS. They send
         | correction info to an uplink station which rebroadcasts
         | corrections using a geosync satellite. These services are
         | regional, not worldwide, since they need ground stations and a
         | geosync satellite with the right coverage.
         | 
         | It's not free; there's a substantial subscription charge.
         | Here's one that works in the US.[1] We used Novatel's for the
         | DARPA Grand Challenge 20 years ago.
         | 
         | [1] https://novatel.com/products/gps-gnss-correction-
         | services/te...
        
       | pstuart wrote:
       | Would it not be possible to do a DIY with a collection of mapped
       | stationary transmitters? It's not like it needs to learn about
       | anything outside the farm in question.
        
       | blantonl wrote:
       | Note that this isn't a GPS failure, it's a failure with
       | Inmarsat's Satellite-based Augmentation Systems (SBAS), which
       | supplements GPS data with signal measurement errors corrections.
       | This allows for centimeter level positioning.
        
         | cjensen wrote:
         | Sea ports used to broadcast a local correction signal[1] back
         | when GPS was intentionally less accurate. Seems like an
         | oversight that farms don't have their own correctors.
         | 
         | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_GPS
        
           | bradknowles wrote:
           | Farms easily could. You can get GPS RTK kits that cost less
           | than $1k and you could set that up at a central location,
           | with wired power systems, etc.... it could calculate its own
           | position down to the centimeter, and then you could use that
           | to help provide correctional information to other clients.
           | 
           | SparkFun has some kits in this space, but you can easily pay
           | up to $10k or more for a more commercialized system that is
           | designed for surveying, or other related purposes.
        
           | Analemma_ wrote:
           | Phones and other devices with cellular radios still use
           | differential GPS by way of the cell towers (which have known,
           | fixed positions) to do those corrections. You can notice this
           | because, when you don't have a cell signal, your phone is
           | considerably slower to get a GPS lock and less accurate when
           | it does. Presumably these farms are out in the middle of
           | nowhere and so that's why they can't do the same thing and
           | need a satellite-based augmentation instead.
        
             | 747fulloftapes wrote:
             | Most modern cellphones use AGPS, assisted GPS, to reduce
             | the time to get their first fix. Basically, AGPS primes the
             | GPS receiver with an accurate time of day and the GPS
             | almanac (satellite ephemeris data). That's rather different
             | from Differential GPS, which is basically corrections used
             | to compensate for fluctuating conditions in the atmosphere.
             | 
             | I may be wrong, but I don't know of any system for cell-
             | tower derived corrections being redistributed out as GNSS
             | corrections. Could you clarify the specific system you
             | described?
        
               | fortysixdegrees wrote:
               | Not so much. Modern GPS will get a first fix pretty
               | quickly regardless, you don't need to seed it.
               | 
               | AGPS is used when satellite coverage is poor, like urban
               | canyons in a city, also a situation where there are a lot
               | of cell towers and triangulation is somewhat useful
        
               | bri3d wrote:
               | AGPS refers to a specific set of technologies, MSB where
               | the almanac and time seed is provided over the cellular
               | network, and MSA where the unit sends GPS data to the
               | AGPS server and the server solves for location using
               | whatever data it would like (which can include a
               | multitude of corrections).
               | 
               | I think what you're referring to with cell tower
               | triangulation (and also WiFi location, etc.) is generally
               | referred to as "hybrid location service" and is usually
               | done at a higher level (ie - in software) using AGPS as
               | one input to a sensor fusion algorithm.
        
               | marsokod wrote:
               | The time to first fix is mainly impacted by whether the
               | receiver knows which satellites to listen to. This
               | requires two things: having the ephemeris for the
               | constellation (either 10min of listening to GPS signal,
               | or getting that through AGPS), and it's approximate own
               | position/time (done through cell antenna locations, and
               | NTP) to know which satellites should be visible.
               | 
               | Once this is available, the receiver can then focus on
               | the signals that are expected and will then be able to
               | provide a 3D fix as soon as it receives something from 4
               | satellites, which would be in a few seconds.
        
               | bri3d wrote:
               | A-GPS can run in Mobile Station Assisted (MSA) mode,
               | where the device sends raw GPS data to the A-GPS network
               | and the assistance server processes it. In this
               | situation, the assistance server can use whatever precise
               | cell site location and ionospheric correction data it
               | wants in its processing, although this is more of an
               | "exercise left to the implementer" and I'm not sure sure
               | MSA mode is even very common anymore.
        
             | labcomputer wrote:
             | Not quite. Phones use _assisted_ GPS, which means that they
             | download GPS ephemeris data over the internet instead of
             | getting it from the the satellite signal (because the
             | satellites transmit data at 50 bps). So the time to first
             | position is faster.
             | 
             | Differential GPS, by contrast, transmits the difference
             | between the surveyed location of a base station and the
             | GPS-derived position of the same station. That offset can
             | be used locally to correct other nearby GPS receivers.
             | 
             | Phones also use trilateration on the cell tower signals to
             | get an approximate solution before trying to solve 3d+time
             | on the GPS signal.
        
               | wepple wrote:
               | It makes me unreasonably happy to see someone call it
               | trilateration. Then again, you appear to know what you're
               | talking about.
        
             | UncleEntity wrote:
             | > Presumably these farms are out in the middle of nowhere
             | and so that's why they can't do the same thing and need a
             | satellite-based augmentation instead.
             | 
             | Easily maybe.
             | 
             | I can't see any reason someone can't take a stationary GPS
             | enabled device and use that to broadcast the differential
             | between received location and actual location. Probably
             | could do it for less than $20 in equipment. Add multiple
             | units and get triangulation for free.
        
             | fortysixdegrees wrote:
             | Cell towers have no relation whatsoever to any of the
             | different types of differential GNSS
        
         | outworlder wrote:
         | Thank you, I was very confused as to why a single satellite
         | failure would have had any impact.
        
         | dingosity wrote:
         | Lol. I clicked "discuss" to make this exact point. Glad to see
         | HN readers are up on which satellites do what.
        
         | 747fulloftapes wrote:
         | Specifically, it is the AU/NZ SouthPAN SBAS that's delivered
         | via Inmarsat. They use PRN 122 for the corrections.
         | 
         | https://www.ga.gov.au/scientific-topics/positioning-navigati...
         | 
         | For details:
         | https://www.ga.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/123320/SBA...
        
         | giantg2 wrote:
         | Seems one could use GPS for less granular positioning and then
         | use visual landmarks like the soil/crop edge from the prior
         | pass or row locations to align for the next pass.
        
           | bluGill wrote:
           | The point is to be accurate to within 2cm across the whole
           | field, for the entire year. You cannot do that with landmarks
           | and human driving.
        
             | Groxx wrote:
             | It's probably something that pays for itself reasonably
             | quickly too. Minor human wobbling means more difficulty and
             | damage when harvesting, probably a wasted row or three per
             | field, etc. Add that up over a decade and many, MANY acres
             | of fields and it's probably a lot of money.
             | 
             | Precision enables a lot of savings.
        
             | HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
             | On /r/farming yesterday someone was showing how he uses
             | John Deere's AIG (Active Implement Guidance) to come back
             | after seeds have germinated and basically put "pockets" in
             | the ground to allow water to pool around the seedlings. The
             | accuracy that it requires to do that without damaging the
             | plants is amazing.
        
             | giantg2 wrote:
             | I'm talking about computer vision using the visual
             | landmarks for the fine tuning.
        
         | causi wrote:
         | Interesting that whatever technology underlies the SBAS system
         | isn't just integrated into GPS. It would be nice to be able to
         | map property lines with just my phone.
        
           | kylehotchkiss wrote:
           | We don't want other countries weapons guided by our gps
           | satellites!
        
             | LeifCarrotson wrote:
             | This isn't 1993 anymore. Beidou and Glonass (and Galileo)
             | are global networks that do the same things for those other
             | countries, and the ITAR restrictions on GPS receiver
             | altitude and velocity are increasingly able to be overcome
             | by a hobbyist in a garage, much less a nation-state.
        
               | bluGill wrote:
               | It doesn't matter - the speed of light in air varies by
               | enough that no satellite can provide the needed accuracy
               | alone.
        
               | fsh wrote:
               | Not quite. Geodetic GNSS systems use two different
               | carrier frequencies to measure and correct for
               | atmospheric dispersion. This reduces the error to sub-mm
               | levels. The inaccuracy of real-time GNSS is due to
               | unknown variations of the satellite orbits, satellite
               | clocks, and earth rotation.
        
           | bradknowles wrote:
           | There are GPS RTK systems designed for use by surveyors. They
           | can cost over $10k, but you can also get much cheaper kits
           | that you can put together yourself from SparkFun -- like less
           | than $1k, easy.
        
           | sumtechguy wrote:
           | You can use the cell towers to assist in mapping it correctly
           | too as they are fixed position and the location is well
           | known. Pretty sure the QCOM patents on it are out of patent
           | by now. Not sure if the android/ios api will expose the whole
           | list of towers the chip can see though. The chip can do it
           | though.
        
           | MikeDelta wrote:
           | It seems that GPS signals can be used for higher accuracy if
           | the receiving equipment uses two frequencies instead of one.
           | This can freely be done by civilians, but requires more
           | expensive equipment. Perhaps this solution with SBAS requires
           | a cheaper setup?
           | 
           | https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/performance/accuracy/
        
             | nradov wrote:
             | Multi-frequency GPS is already available in many
             | inexpensive civilian devices such as smart watches and cell
             | phones. It improves accuracy a little, primarily when the
             | device doesn't have a clear view of the sky like when next
             | to buildings. But it's still not as precise as SBAS.
        
               | michaelt wrote:
               | The highest precision GPS receivers require dual-
               | frequency reception and perform "carrier differential
               | GPS" - any time people are talking about GPS with 2cm
               | accuracy, that's what they're talking about.
               | 
               | The GPS signal has a digital signal (with a wavelength of
               | ~300m) modulated with a sine wave (with a wavelength of
               | ~20cm) - you can measure the 20cm signal much more
               | precisely than the 300m signal, but it's 'ambiguous'
               | because it repeats every 20cm and you don't know how many
               | waves of the sine have passed.
               | 
               | If you can receive two frequencies, giving you two
               | slightly different sine waves, you can multiply them
               | together and get a sine wave with a longer period, which
               | (together with some clever maths) lets you bridge the gap
               | between the unambiguous-but-imprecise digital signal and
               | the precise-but-ambiguous sine wave.
               | 
               | You also need a fixed base station at a known location -
               | or access to a commercial network of such stations.
        
           | AlotOfReading wrote:
           | The US government _does_ provide an SBAS called the WAAS,
           | operated by the FAA. It 's also had a hand in designing and
           | operating a number of other augmentation systems [1],
           | including CORS, GDGPS, and NDGPS. As an aside, don't you just
           | love how many government acronyms there are?
           | 
           | [1] https://www.gps.gov/systems/augmentations
        
             | tesseract wrote:
             | WAAS doesn't cover Australia.
        
               | AlotOfReading wrote:
               | Wasn't saying it did. MSAS (Japan) can be used in AU if
               | you accept the performance degradation, but the lack of a
               | public SBAS for the southern hemisphere is a big reason
               | why SouthPAN is being brought online.
        
             | ericpauley wrote:
             | FAA sure loves their TLAs. Some acronyms (or initialisms,
             | for the pedants), like VOR, are TLAs _inside_ TLAs!
        
           | Waterluvian wrote:
           | Typically these systems are broadcasting data obtained from
           | many private regional reference stations on the ground. Look
           | up "VRS RTK" as an example.
        
       | tick_tock_tick wrote:
       | The article says GPS but it looks like they are using a special
       | satellite by Inmarsat rather then the USA military GPS.
       | 
       | I've very unclear why they are using this one specifically rather
       | then GPS or GNSS. Or even a combo if the Inmarsat has uniquely
       | good properties?
        
       | fortysixdegrees wrote:
       | Ive been working with GNSS for the last decade and a bit, and
       | this article and the comments here are a low point for HN in
       | terms of people making comments about stuff they dont understand.
       | 
       | PSA: if you want to learn about corrected GNSS, stop reading this
       | thread now. I started replying to some comments then gave up,
       | most here are more wrong than right.
        
         | wepple wrote:
         | Do you have any suggested resources? It deeply fascinated me
         | but books seem either highly specific or academic
        
         | fsh wrote:
         | Physics articles are even worse. Commenters on HN are mostly
         | science-illiterate but have very strongly held opinions.
        
       | LinuxBender wrote:
       | As others mentioned this sounds unrelated to GPS. Have any
       | colleges been working on a _local_ and _self hosted_ server  /
       | transceiver to control tractors and remove this _single point of
       | success_? Maybe even take GPS out of the equation by having
       | perimeter or fence-line beacons to create a virtual map for the
       | tractor? Bonus if someone made a kit to retrofit old tractors. I
       | could have some fun with my 1947 Fordson 2N driving itself.
        
         | myself248 wrote:
         | I can't imagine relying on private SBAS when DIY RTK is so
         | cheap and easy now. Sparkfun will set you up with your own base
         | station hardware for under $1000, I wonder what a year of
         | inmarsat corrections costs.
        
           | michaelt wrote:
           | Historically (perhaps prices have come down a lot in the last
           | decade with the introduction of the L5 signal?) getting RTK
           | corrections from a third party meant you only needed one
           | $20,000 receiver, instead of two.
        
       | gravitronic wrote:
       | What an insane dependency tree, that driving a truck in a field
       | to plant some seeds requires a computer operating in space. I
       | really hope there is a push-back on this unbounded complexity.
       | Mind boggling.
        
         | outworlder wrote:
         | > What an insane dependency tree, that driving a truck in a
         | field to plant some seeds requires a computer operating in
         | space.
         | 
         | Well, what if I told you that, if GPS failed, many other
         | (stationary!) operations would be impacted? Including
         | financial.
         | 
         | We rely on space computers for more than position, we also rely
         | on them for accurate timekeeping. If you are connected to the
         | internet you can get time corrections that way, but there's
         | plenty of devices that are gathering time data from space.
         | 
         | Now, the issue here is not so much that they are using
         | satellites, is that they are _only_ using satellites (and, it
         | would seem, they are using them for the entire time they are
         | operating). Land-based stations around the field to provide
         | location information could definitely be used instead. Or other
         | mechanisms.
         | 
         | I don't know if tractors have inertial navigation units but, if
         | not, maybe they should. That would at least allow them to
         | operate after the initial fix was established (which doesn't
         | even require GPS, just a well-known starting point). Basically,
         | the same thing that airliners already do.
         | 
         | EDIT: found this - https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/use-
         | inertial-measurement...
        
         | kube-system wrote:
         | It's only silly if you have an outdated "romanticized" image of
         | farming in your head. Those images are from a time when >50% of
         | the population farmed. Technology is what has enabled the vast
         | majority of people in developed societies to do things other
         | than farming.
        
           | benj111 wrote:
           | There's a massive gap between >50% of the population farming
           | and GPS guided tractors that apparently don't need a driver.
           | 
           | Edit: I say don't need a driver, or whether they always
           | needed a driver who now just needs to drive, but that to me
           | doesn't constitute 'crippled'
        
             | kube-system wrote:
             | Yes, and that divide includes genetic engineering, weather
             | satellites, teams of chemists, million dollar tractors, a
             | finance and logistics infrastructure, and a whole lot of
             | other stuff that doesn't look anything like American
             | Gothic. GPS guided tractors are not remarkable in that
             | continuum.
        
               | mistrial9 wrote:
               | this thinking in the previous industrial age created the
               | poison wastelands of Ohio. Mudslinging with the tag
               | "American Gothic Farming" adds to the arrogance of it
               | all. American farming is largely a flaming disaster on
               | top of destruction, with other would-be plantation owners
               | racing to copy it. Plenty of blame to go around, and this
               | contrite endorsement of all and anything futuristic,
               | ain't the cure.
        
               | kube-system wrote:
               | Famine kind of sucks too.
        
               | HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
               | Mic drop :-)
        
               | mardifoufs wrote:
               | The article is about Australia. There's no need to go on
               | a self-loathing rant about where you live.
        
           | tedunangst wrote:
           | I'm pretty sure we got below the 50% farmer threshold without
           | using GPS. Or has this all happened in the last twenty years?
        
             | kube-system wrote:
             | I'm sure someone was scoffing at how "ridiculous" it was
             | the first moment a farmer took a Tin Lizzy into the field
             | and it needed a new clutch. Technology "in the field" is so
             | normal that it is an idiom.
        
             | bluGill wrote:
             | Your image of the farm is from when >50% of the population
             | farmed though.
        
               | tedunangst wrote:
               | My image of the farm is from when about 2% of the
               | workforce farmed. I don't think self driving tractors
               | have changed it that much.
        
               | bluGill wrote:
               | You are usual then.
        
             | bluSCALE4 wrote:
             | Right but they probably had 10x farm hands and no yield
             | contractual agreements.
        
         | dokem wrote:
         | Everything is already complex. The rubber in the tires,
         | foundries for the metal in the tractor, machining tools and
         | welding equipment, the processes and tools to develop
         | insecticides, water infrastructure. Why is a far away radio a
         | bridge too far? It already takes a nation to build tractors at
         | scale.
        
           | gravitronic wrote:
           | If the tire factory takes a day off, the truck in the field
           | can still drive.
           | 
           | If the rubber factory takes a day off, the truck in the field
           | can still drive.
           | 
           | etc, etc.
           | 
           | Can't talk to a specific single space computer with no
           | fallback? truck in the field might as well be a potato.
        
             | politician wrote:
             | Fuel is complex.
        
         | albatross13 wrote:
         | You should start your own farm and scale it to feed tens of
         | millions of people, simply by driving a truck in a field :)
        
         | jasonpeacock wrote:
         | They aren't driving a truck, the truck is driving itself and is
         | guided by a high-resolution GPS-like service.
         | 
         | Providing a high-resolution GPS-like service at affordable
         | scale is not simple.
        
           | klyrs wrote:
           | One can imagine planting a few posts at the corners of a
           | field with a few dollars worth of radio equipment each, and
           | getting higher resolution without relying on satellite.
           | 
           | Reading other comments here, it seems that these exist, in
           | tandem with GPS, to get absolute positioning. But I don't see
           | why absolute positioning would be needed; relative
           | positioning should suffice.
        
             | j16sdiz wrote:
             | It worth a lot more than "a few dollars"
             | 
             | Most technology give you 20+ cm resolution[1], the one
             | farmer are using are at ~4cm resolution .
             | 
             | [1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11277-021-08
             | 209-5
        
               | klyrs wrote:
               | I was thinking of component cost when I said a few
               | dollars; of course a commercial product is going to sell
               | for thousands. In the 60GHz band (IEEE 802.11ad), you can
               | plausibly get down to ~.5cm resolution with cheap, COTS
               | network gear.
        
             | bluGill wrote:
             | The labor to make that work is going to be expensive, but
             | yes you can do that. GPS with corrections is the cheap and
             | easy way to ensure everything works and then you get back
             | to the business of farming.
        
           | thebooktocome wrote:
           | I think a more charitable read of OP is that you don't need a
           | satellite (or even GPS) to provide centimeter-accurate
           | localization over a wide area. Spacebound systems are always
           | going to have worse uptime and less resiliency than ground
           | ones.
        
       | yardie wrote:
       | This is not the USDOD GPS. This is Inmarsat's DGPS service that
       | provides ~1-2cm accuracy. Which, if you're driving between rows
       | of produce can be the difference between harvesting or crushing
       | crops.
       | 
       | [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_GPS
        
         | polishdude20 wrote:
         | What's stopping farmers form getting better local location
         | determination by using RTK stations around their field instead?
        
           | cellularmitosis wrote:
           | Certain manufacturers fighting against right-to-repair
           | certainly stymies potential third-party hacks / upgrades,
           | such as your suggestion.
        
       | JoeAltmaier wrote:
       | You can put devices in the field that substitute for the GPS
       | satellites. But you have to know where the device is! So it'd
       | have to have been installed before the outage.
        
         | Animats wrote:
         | That used to be done. They're called "psuedolites". You'd put
         | one somewhere on your property. It listens to the GPS
         | satellites, and over a few hours, gets its own location very
         | accurately by averaging error. Then it rebroadcasts a
         | correction signal to cooperating GPS receivers nearby. Some
         | airports have used these. They're called "ground based
         | augmentation systems" in aviation.
         | 
         | There are agricultural versions. Deere sells some.[1] They call
         | this "RTK".
         | 
         | [1] https://www.deere.com/en/technology-products/precision-ag-
         | te...
        
       | skybrian wrote:
       | The article is from two days ago. Here's another article saying
       | the satellite is at least partially back online? I don't know if
       | that helps farmers, though.
       | 
       | > Inmarsat's aircraft safety and other L-band satcom services for
       | the Asia-Pacific region are operable again, following an outage
       | of the firm's I-4 F1 satellite which forced operators to switch
       | to high frequency (HF) radio. The news comes as a relief to
       | operators, pilots, aviation enthusiasts and tech-savvy flyers.
       | 
       | > London-based Inmarsat explains in a fresh update today that the
       | L-band satellite "suffered a partial loss of power" which invoked
       | automatic procedures on the satellite that led to the suspension
       | of services for East Asia and the Pacific region starting at
       | 21.14 UTC on Sunday 16 April.
       | 
       | https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2023/04/inmarsat-safety-servic...
        
         | skybrian wrote:
         | Another article:
         | 
         | > The British satellite Inmarsat I-4 F1, which provides
         | services for East Asia and the Pacific regions, is back in
         | operation after an outage on Sunday.
         | 
         | > The incident is prompting farmers and industry groups to
         | examine their backup systems for the technology they are using.
         | 
         | Questions raised about reliance of satellite technology for
         | farming after Inmarsat I-4 F1 outage
         | https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2023-04-19/inmarsat-i-4-f1...
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2023-04-20 23:01 UTC)