[HN Gopher] In 1981, Intel released the iAPX 432
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       In 1981, Intel released the iAPX 432
        
       Author : mepian
       Score  : 115 points
       Date   : 2023-04-20 16:47 UTC (6 hours ago)
        
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       | walnutclosefarm wrote:
       | Any discussion of the iAPX 432 should mention IBM's earlier stab
       | at building a minicomputer around a single-level object store
       | hardware architecture - the System 38. It too struggled in the
       | market, although being a sibling of the system 3X -> AS/400 line,
       | didn't die quite as ignominiously as the iAPX 432.
        
       | rektide wrote:
       | Intel's first attempt at a 32-bit (thanks for the save chris_st)
       | CPU, a huge massive two-chip CISC beast. Read in, well worth it.
        
         | chris_st wrote:
         | Do you mean their first _32-bit_ CPU? The 4004 /8008/8080 all
         | precede it ( _edited, thanks chihuahua_ ).
        
           | [deleted]
        
       | zymhan wrote:
       | Recent related post:
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35412342
       | 
       | "iAPX432: Gordon Moore, Risk and Intel's Super-CISC Failure"
        
       | e40 wrote:
       | When I was at UCB I was roommates with a grad student working
       | on/with (not sure which) the 432. I was learning CS at the time
       | and what he described did seem like a wild alternate universe of
       | computing.
        
         | kens wrote:
         | Was your roommate working on the 432 performance paper? (Paul
         | M. Hansen, Mark A Lirdon, Robert N. Mayo, Marguerite Murphy,
         | and David A Patterson)
        
           | e40 wrote:
           | Not one of those people... honestly, having trouble
           | remembering his name now, but I would recognize it if I saw
           | it. And, I know Dave Patterson wasn't my roommate. :) His
           | office was just down the hall, though, when I was at UCB.
           | 
           | EDIT: I think it was Karl (Carl?) something.
        
       | Zanni wrote:
       | Favorite bit: "What if the 432 had won? Computing would be very
       | different. Many security problems wouldn't exist. You can't have
       | a buffer overflow because every data structure is a separate
       | object with memory segment size enforced in hardware. You can't
       | smash the stack or make bad pointers."
       | 
       | In the early 80s, speed was everything and security a non-issue.
       | LANs hadn't even taken off yet, let alone the internet. But
       | that's almost flip-flopped today.
        
         | pjmlp wrote:
         | Really?
         | 
         | "A consequence of this principle is that every occurrence of
         | every subscript of every subscripted variable was on every
         | occasion checked at run time against both the upper and the
         | lower declared bounds of the array. Many years later we asked
         | our customers whether they wished us to provide an option to
         | switch off these checks in the interests of efficiency on
         | production runs. Unanimously, they urged us not to--they
         | already knew how frequently subscript errors occur on
         | production runs where failure to detect them could be
         | disastrous. I note with fear and horror that even in 1980
         | language designers and users have not learned this lesson. In
         | any respectable branch of engineering, failure to observe such
         | elementary precautions would have long been against the law."
         | 
         | C.A.R. Hoare in his 1980's Turing Award speech.
         | 
         | In 1988, Morris Worm takes over UNIX
         | 
         | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_worm
        
           | aidenn0 wrote:
           | On a side note, my dad observed that when he was getting his
           | Master's degree in CS, they had to read Hoare's CSP paper. He
           | said the class was divided into two groups: those who didn't
           | understand it, and those who thought the problems with
           | mutable-by-default multithreading could be solved with proper
           | programmer discipline.
        
         | WorldMaker wrote:
         | I'm really curious at this point what would happen if someone
         | tried to resurrect a design like the 432. Maybe not the 432
         | _exactly_ because things like bit-aligned instructions are
         | still awkward /weird and didn't turn out to be as useful as the
         | designers hoped. (It seems like an obvious compromise because
         | object-tagging taking so much RAM in an era where RAM was so
         | expensive it is an easy bet that they felt a need to nickel and
         | dime/golf program code size, if they could.)
         | 
         | But even just reusing the architecture as-was, it would
         | certainly be cheaper and need fewer chips today. It might be
         | fun to have a cheap Raspberry Pi-like board with a 432 to
         | experiment coding against.
        
           | bbatha wrote:
           | The CHERI extension for ARM does this:
           | https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/ctsrd/cheri/. The
           | Rust language is experimenting with adding language level
           | pointer provenance apis that provide the same info to the
           | compiler, and would presumably compile to the instructions if
           | available, https://doc.rust-
           | lang.org/nightly/std/ptr/index.html#strict-...
        
           | kens wrote:
           | The ironic thing is that the performance analysis paper [*]
           | found that the weird bit-aligned instructions iAPX 432 didn't
           | actually help code size.
           | 
           | "Although the 432 has bit-variable length instructions, it
           | requires more space than either the 68000 in Pascal or the
           | VAX in C. Reasons include the lack of immediates and the
           | inability to refer to a local variable or constant using
           | fewer than 16 bits of address."
           | 
           | (From a modern perspective, the test programs are absurdly
           | small: 120-2900 bytes. Nowadays, you probably couldn't even
           | create a program that small.)
           | 
           | [*] https://archive.org/details/PerformanceEvaluationOfTheInt
           | elA...
        
           | Joker_vD wrote:
           | Well, I can make a guess: the experience of porting existing
           | C code to it would be a horrible experience so it would never
           | take off the ground because, you know, nobody ain't got time
           | to rewrite the whole world from scratch.
        
             | WorldMaker wrote:
             | My curiosity has nothing to do with running existing C
             | code. The reference to Raspberry Pi should have made that
             | obvious, I think. The idea would be to have something to
             | play with as a hobbyist. Something to develop new compilers
             | for to see what you can build and if what you can build is
             | fun/interesting, even if it doesn't have commercial
             | aspirations or "productive" uses and is only ever a "toy".
             | You know, hobbyist fun.
        
               | Joker_vD wrote:
               | Ah, well, that you can do this with FPGA prototyping even
               | today, you know.
        
               | WorldMaker wrote:
               | That is something that I know. That is why I suggested it
               | might be cheap to explore the concept (at the bottom of
               | my post) and part of why I'm curious to see others try. I
               | _personally_ have college experience in FPGA prototyping
               | but primarily have focused my efforts on software
               | development then and since, I wouldn 't have much fun
               | myself building an FPGA prototype of something like the
               | 432 by myself. But if someone sent me a cute RPi-like
               | board and an okay (doesn't have to be great)
               | assembler/debugger for it, I'd certainly give it a try
               | seeing if I could assemble something interesting like a
               | compiler for a next higher-level language. If that same
               | someone were to build enough of the boards to build an
               | entire community of hobbyist developers more than just
               | me, that would be even better and really interesting and
               | the biggest reason to mention it as a curiosity on a site
               | like this, not to do a one-off thing to scratch a
               | personal itch but to wonder what a community of hobbyists
               | could do together as a group.
        
         | rwmj wrote:
         | What would have _actually_ happened is once the first
         | programmer realised you could get a speed bump by putting all
         | your objects inside a single segment, we 'd have been back to
         | where we are now. Which is roughly what happened to the 286
         | which borrowed some of the 432 concepts -- every practical OS
         | ignored the call gates, segments, and all but two of the rings.
        
           | pjmlp wrote:
           | That is what happens without liability, finally cybersecurity
           | laws are fixing this.
        
             | AnimalMuppet wrote:
             | They are? In what jurisdictions?
        
               | pjmlp wrote:
               | US and EU,slowly getting there.
               | 
               | https://www.sonatype.com/national-cybersecurity-strategy-
               | wha...
               | 
               | https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/library/cyber-
               | resil...
               | 
               | The rest will follow.
        
               | AnimalMuppet wrote:
               | That doesn't seem to point me to any actual laws in the
               | US...
        
               | singleshot_ wrote:
               | The state of liability for insecure software in America
               | is woefully bad.
               | 
               | You're not going to be able to apply breach of warranty
               | under UCC. As a threshold matter, software might not even
               | be considered a "good" and so it might not even governed
               | by UCC. But if you did manage to apply UCC to software,
               | the contract or license under which software is provided
               | would have to be incompetently drafted if it were to be
               | found that it did not effectively disclaim liability or
               | if it was found unconscionable. There are some additional
               | procedural hurdles concerning probity of contract but
               | let's leave it there
               | 
               | Under basic tort law, a software provider would need to
               | be found to have a duty of care in order to be found
               | negligent, but surprisingly, this is seldom found to
               | exist. There is also no clear standard to measure whether
               | a software provider may have breached that duty.
               | Intervening or superseding cause exists in almost every
               | breach, although for security-specific software, this
               | might not be the case (e.g., a firewall fails open might
               | be reasonably foreseeable to cause damage by means of a
               | hacker, against whom the firewall is meant to protect).
               | 
               | Finally even if you get to this point, recovery may be
               | barred or limited by the economic loss doctrine.
               | 
               | Defective product law is even worse, due to the
               | (inscrutable) fact that while most courts would call
               | software a good for UCC purposes, they would not call it
               | a product for the purposes of product defect law. There
               | are some additional wrinkles here concerning design of
               | software versus manufacture of software in the context of
               | defective product design law, but we're starting to
               | wander out of HN post territory and into CLE territory
               | here.
               | 
               | Frankly if Joe Biden wanted to change every thing I just
               | red it would be superb but I think we have to be
               | realistic about how much influence the federal government
               | can apply here without causing massive terrible second
               | and third order effects. For example look back to 43 and
               | Obama's heavy reliance on cybersecurity insurance to
               | advance national security interests and how quickly that
               | turned into free payouts for everyone who could manage to
               | get a random reared out to work.
        
       | kens wrote:
       | Author here if there are any questions. Also, if anyone happens
       | to have other iAPX 432 chips sitting around, I'd be happy to take
       | high-resolution die photos. There aren't good 432 die photos
       | around, so I was happy to get access to the 43201 chip.
       | 
       | The thread is also on Twitter:
       | https://twitter.com/kenshirriff/status/1649075486008524801
        
         | panick21_ wrote:
         | Tom Lyon said in a podcast he has some, he said his wife was in
         | Intel Marketing and they were giving them away. You should be
         | able to find him.
        
           | kens wrote:
           | Thank you for this very helpful suggestion! I got in touch
           | with Tom and he does have some 432 chips.
        
             | panick21_ wrote:
             | Glad my memory for useless information I retained from
             | podcasts paid off for once.
             | 
             | I think it was Oxide and Friends episode on SPARC but not
             | sure.
        
         | helf wrote:
         | Just wanted to say that I love your content and look forward to
         | new stuff. Thanks so much for putting the effort forward that
         | you do! I've learned tons of the years following you :) greatly
         | appreciate it.
        
       | JoeAltmaier wrote:
       | My brother worked there at the time. He wanted in on the project,
       | but Intel mgmt had already begun to pull back from it,
       | controlling costs.
       | 
       | I recall him saying at the time, "A JMP . instruction takes 500
       | machine cycles". This was apparently because it was largely an
       | interpreter - the 'assembly' wasn't run in hardware but some kind
       | of firmware. I suppose the OP covered all that.
        
         | sedatk wrote:
         | To be fair, all modern CISC CPUs are microcode interpreters
         | too.
        
           | dfox wrote:
           | Implementing a CPU by writing an interpreter in lower level
           | microcode is a obvious implementation strategy for CISC ISAs.
           | But the mechanism how modern OoO x86 CPUs (and even many
           | notionally RISC CPUs) works is different: The incoming
           | instruction stream is converted into internal "more RISC"
           | uOps and these are then executed by the OoO pipeline, this
           | happens almost entirely in hardware (and on current x86
           | implementations with somewhat incredible amount of
           | parallelism) and can in fact even combine multiple
           | instructions into one uOp (or even completely discard an
           | instruction). There is usually some microcode, but this is
           | there to handle instructions that cannot be efficiently
           | mapped to block of the uOps (too much work done in one
           | instruction, interestingly ARM has bunch of such cases) and
           | to handle interrupt and exception handling.
        
             | aidenn0 wrote:
             | Someone observed to me once that the dominance of ARM has
             | proven both the CISC _and_ RISC sides wrong as ARM has
             | fairly intermediate complexity instructions.
        
               | kimixa wrote:
               | I've generally heard that the two major successful
               | architectures today are the most complex RISC in ARM, and
               | the most simple CISC in x86.
        
       | monocasa wrote:
       | Awesome, I was really hoping that kens would take a look at the
       | 432 chipset given his experience reversing the 8086 and the fact
       | that the 432 is on a similar Intel HMOS process. Particularly
       | because the 432 has a lot of commentary on why it failed, but
       | unfortunately lacks a lot of hard details on what all it actually
       | was.
       | 
       | If people want to read more, some of the best docs I've found are
       | the academic literature on the chips.
       | 
       | Instruction Decoder: https://doi.org/10.1109/JSSC.1981.1051633
       | 
       | Execution Unit: https://doi.org/10.1109/JSSC.1981.1051631
       | 
       | Interface Processor: https://doi.org/10.1109/JSSC.1981.1051632
        
         | Findecanor wrote:
         | The book "Capability-Based Computer Systems" by Henry M. Levy
         | has 28 pages on how to program the iAPX432. Quite a lot to
         | digest.
         | 
         | <https://homes.cs.washington.edu/~levy/capabook/Chapter9.pdf>
        
         | kens wrote:
         | Yes, those papers were very informative. Also the iAPX 432
         | patents have a lot of detail:
         | https://patents.google.com/patent/US4325120A
         | https://patents.google.com/patent/US4367524
         | https://patents.google.com/patent/US4415969
        
       | tibbydudeza wrote:
       | The days of Byte Magazine where people and esp venture
       | capitalists funded and the market had space for all sorts of new
       | ideas like the Amiga.
       | 
       | My favourite one was a 3 chip Object Oriented system called
       | Objekt,Numerik and something else by Hifi manufacturer Linn - the
       | owner at the time loved the Vaxen running his factory and funded
       | a new architecture.
       | 
       | The fixation with the letter "k" I found rather intriguing.
        
         | EdwardCoffin wrote:
         | The four chip system you are thinking of was the Logik, Objekt,
         | Numerik, and Klock chips that made up Rekursiv [1]. There was
         | some crazy backstory to it that I read up on a few years ago,
         | which I no longer remember, but I do remember it was
         | outlandish.
         | 
         | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rekursiv
        
       | forgotmypw17 wrote:
       | https://archive.is/imnEY
        
       | chris_st wrote:
       | And, then in 1989, they released the i860 [0] with similar
       | promises to similar failure.
       | 
       | 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_i860
        
         | kjs3 wrote:
         | Intel and Microsoft thought so much of the i860's future, it
         | was the architecture Microsoft started developing Windows NT
         | on. Obviously...didn't work out.
        
           | WorldMaker wrote:
           | Similarly, NT allegedly invested a lot into supporting the
           | even later (and more goofily named) Itanium [1] (IA-64)
           | architecture.
           | 
           | In general, Intel's history of failed architectures is almost
           | more interesting than its history of winning architectures.
           | 
           | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IA-64
        
         | Findecanor wrote:
         | The i960 embedded CPU series (that came out at about the same
         | time as the i860) has been called the successor to the iAPX432.
         | It had the same lead designer, and was also intended to run
         | Ada, but except for its use of tagged memory it was a
         | relatively conventional RISC architecture:
         | <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_i960>
        
         | jandrese wrote:
         | The i860 failed for entirely different reasons though. It was
         | really a vector engine that could manage some general compute
         | with some grumbling whereas the 432 was built for general
         | purpose applications written in Ada.
         | 
         | But I guess they did both fail for the same reason: they were
         | more expensive and slower than x86 when running regular
         | applications. Itanium would follow this trend. Come to think of
         | it i860 and Itanium are far more closely related, both
         | suffering greatly from the Intel hardware engineers punting on
         | the difficult instruction scheduling issues with the
         | architecture and the compiler writers not being able to pull
         | the rabbit out of the hat and magically fix those issues. So
         | you have chips that only ever perform properly on trivially
         | parallelizeable tasks and are slow on the vast majority of
         | code.
        
           | chris_st wrote:
           | As I understand it, the hardware design for the i860 made it
           | _incredibly_ hard to write a compiler for. This also helped
           | it fail.
        
       | cpeterso wrote:
       | For more of the story behind the development of the iAPX 432,
       | check out "iAPX432 : Gordon Moore, Risk and Intel's Super-CISC
       | failure":
       | 
       | https://thechipletter.substack.com/p/iapx432-gordon-moore-ri...
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35412342
        
       | kabdib wrote:
       | I was taking a VLSI design course around that time; our
       | instructor came into class with a fist-size block of plexiglass,
       | with an iAPX 432 chipset embedded in it. A gift from Intel. The
       | chips were HUGE.
       | 
       | I have Elliot Organick's book on the 432. It is not fun reading.
        
         | pkaye wrote:
         | I found the book on Bitsavers.
         | 
         | http://www.bitsavers.org/components/intel/iAPX_432/Organick_...
        
         | jandrese wrote:
         | Only one chip wasn't even enough, the amount of die needed and
         | the limited lithography at the time meant Intel had to split it
         | into three huge and expensive chips.
         | 
         | One of the crazier aspects of the design was that the chip
         | design basically required the Ada computer language to take
         | over the world. As far as predictions of the future go that has
         | to be one of the most expensive misses of all time.
        
           | rwmj wrote:
           | The first IBM POWER was also split over several chips
           | (Wikipedia says up to 10! -
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POWER1#Physical_description)
        
             | aidenn0 wrote:
             | POWER2 was originally multiple chips as well.
        
           | Taniwha wrote:
           | Remember that at the time no one put a main-frame class chip
           | on a single die - the 68ks/32ks, and much later 386s were the
           | first generation who managed to pull off putting a large
           | architecture on a chip (I'm trying to make a distinction here
           | between architecture and what particular implementations
           | could do) - in the early 70s mainframes were the size of
           | basketball courts, in the late 70s/early 80s they were the
           | size of a large fridge (and disk drives the size of a washing
           | machine).
           | 
           | So splitting it all in 3 wasn't necessarily the crazy idea we
           | might think it is today - it still all fitted on one circuit
           | board!
        
             | jandrese wrote:
             | It depends on your perspective. From a
             | mainframe/minicomputer standpoint it was pretty good. From
             | the microcomputer perspective it was nuts. Unfortunately
             | for Intel they've always been closely associated with
             | microcomputers so that is the standard by which they were
             | judged.
        
               | twoodfin wrote:
               | At the time it wasn't at all clear that microcomputers
               | and their architecture would graduate from being toys for
               | hobbyists to ruling the computing world. It was assumed
               | in many circles (including Intel, apparently) that minis
               | and mainframes--really, more "modular" less "integrated"
               | architectures--would own the enterprise.
               | 
               | (The dependence on Ada makes a lot more sense in this
               | context: Your mainframe vendor telling you what language
               | you could use wasn't odd at all in that space.)
               | 
               | DEC also essentially fell victim to this misapprehension,
               | and unlike Intel didn't have a Plan B.
        
             | chx wrote:
             | One of my favorite crazy facts: in 1991 a Hungarian
             | university got an IBM 3090 mainframe as a gift, while
             | outdated it was still insanely more advanced than anything
             | else available in the country. They found a spot on the top
             | floor for it but it was impossible to get it up there so
             | _they removed the roof_ and used a crane.
             | 
             | Memorial page with photos:
             | http://hampage.hu/nosztalgia/netto/ursus/index.html
             | 
             | In 1995, when another university got a VAX 9000 cluster for
             | the bargain basement price of 50 000 CHF (~130 000 USD
             | equivalent today) -- the Swiss basically discarded it as
             | outdated, this truly was cheap -- and they tried to switch
             | it on, it blew the fuse ... of the district. They needed to
             | run a new power line from the nearest substation.
        
             | aidenn0 wrote:
             | The 68k was so much simpler than the 432 that it came out
             | about over a year earlier, despite starting two years
             | later.
        
           | WorldMaker wrote:
           | From my understanding, that wasn't necessarily a bad
           | prediction at the time. Ada was one of the most advanced
           | languages at the time and was built for a lot of things that
           | wouldn't become standard in other languages for decades later
           | in some cases. From that perspective even in hindsight it was
           | very much "the future".
           | 
           | It was built for the US Department of Defense and it is easy
           | to believe that something with US government backing might
           | have massive staying power, even if only just for (sometimes
           | lucrative) defense contracts.
           | 
           | The biggest problem with Ada at the time was how expensive it
           | was to purchase compilers, which is obviously par for the
           | course for something built for defense contracts on a defense
           | budget but would have been a lot harder to swallow for
           | general software companies. Even then there was room to
           | imagine that competitor compilers might be built (especially
           | if you think you've got a chipset designed to make that in
           | theory easy to do by moving many of the language
           | intrinsics/underlying virtual machine directly into hardware
           | as a physical machine).
        
             | jandrese wrote:
             | Ada had a lot of companies that missed the boat on earlier
             | languages seeing their opportunity to really get the
             | monetization right this time. It helped that Ada was so
             | complex that some rando in his basement couldn't write a
             | good compiler for it like they could with C, BASIC, Pascal,
             | Fortran, LISP, etc... It was expensive to develop so it was
             | expensive to purchase. Even better, such a huge compiler
             | for a new language is doomed to be buggy, especially at
             | first, so they can make even more money on expensive
             | support contracts.
             | 
             | The only thing missing was a reason for programmers to
             | switch to it. There were promises that the code would be
             | safe, and that if it compiled it should just work, but the
             | buggy nature of the compilers undercut these promises.
             | Actually, it sounds a lot like Rust minus the buggy
             | compiler part.
             | 
             | The idea that the defense contractors would drive the
             | industry over-estimates just how much code they write. Sure
             | it's millions of lines every year, but compared to
             | worldwide C development it is a drop in the bucket.
        
               | WorldMaker wrote:
               | > The idea that the defense contractors would drive the
               | industry over-estimates just how much code they write.
               | Sure it's millions of lines every year, but compared to
               | worldwide C development it is a drop in the bucket.
               | 
               | The implication I was making, in case it wasn't overt
               | enough, had a lot more to do with money/budget/revenue
               | than lines of code. The US DOD has massive budgets and
               | over-spends those budgets on all kinds of wild things (so
               | long as they can pass Congressional oversight, at least).
               | The amount of money the US DOD spends on defense
               | contractors will always attract a lot of attention, even
               | if the amount of code that the US DOD gets back from all
               | that spending will always be a drop in the bucket to the
               | overall software industry.
               | 
               | A different, unrelated, implication that is often used is
               | that the DOD has increased requirements for safety,
               | security, and oversight and that "defense-grade" or
               | "defense-level" signifies something stronger than
               | consumer-grade. You can see some of that in the 432's
               | attempted marketing: imagine having access to "defense-
               | grade" Ada-capable hardware in the microcomputer form
               | factor at a fraction of then-current mainframe costs. Of
               | course, in reality, not everyone needs "defense-grade"
               | and the "dream" of using the same language and similar
               | tools to the US DOD never had quite the appeal that Intel
               | marketers must have hoped for. But you can certainly see
               | why Intel marketers might have thought there some
               | advantage in "defense grade".
               | 
               | The US DOD and its defense contractors have never exactly
               | "led" the industry, but they've certainly had a large
               | shadow over of it for most of computing history. (Says
               | the person sending this little collection of thoughts and
               | opinions over a vast and incredible inter-network of
               | networks that began as a Defense advanced research
               | project.)
        
               | ajxs wrote:
               | > ...some rando in his basement couldn't write a good
               | compiler for it like they could with C, BASIC, Pascal,
               | Fortran, LISP...
               | 
               | I see Ada as having a fundamentally different philosophy
               | from languages like C and BASIC. Ada compilers were
               | allowed to not implement all of the standard library
               | features, and many didn't.
               | 
               | > ...such a huge compiler for a new language is doomed to
               | be buggy, especially at first...
               | 
               | Was this actually what happened though? There was always
               | the Ada Conformity Assessment Test Suite (ACATS), which
               | tested a compiler's implementation. If compilers ever
               | hindered Ada's adoption, it wasn't because they were
               | buggy, it was how expensive and resource intensive they
               | were.
               | 
               | > There were promises that the code would be safe, and
               | that if it compiled it should just work, but the buggy
               | nature of the compilers undercut these promises...
               | 
               | ...except that it did kind of work in the end though,
               | didn't it? Ada is still very widely used in a lot of
               | places, and has been for a long time. Lots of new code is
               | still being written in Ada too. There's lots of
               | literature available about how well Ada integrates in
               | environments where code is audited against safety
               | regulations.
               | 
               | > The idea that the defense contractors would drive the
               | industry over-estimates just how much code they write.
               | 
               | This is certainly true now, but was this true when Ada
               | was being designed in the late-70s/early-80s? My
               | understanding is that C didn't become the dominant
               | embedded-systems language until much later. I wasn't
               | there, mind you. I could have some historic details
               | wrong.
               | 
               | Edit: It's worth adding that of the languages the parent
               | poster mentioned above, the only language which still
               | sees mainstream use is C. I know Fortran and LISP have
               | very healthy communities and enjoy a lot of use in niche
               | industries, of course. I don't think this is what the
               | parent poster meant exactly, however it's very common to
               | hear people talk about Ada as a failure on the basis that
               | it didn't completely overtake the software industry. You
               | don't really hear people condemn BASIC, or Pascal in the
               | same way though, even though Ada enjoys much more modern
               | usage.
        
               | nradov wrote:
               | Even the defense industry is migrating away from Ada. The
               | F-22 Raptor software was mostly written in Ada. The F-35
               | Lighting II (JSF) software is mostly written in C++.
               | While the JSF program has had some major software delays,
               | overall the choice of C++ seems to have worked out.
        
               | ajxs wrote:
               | This is true. Ironically, when we're talking about an
               | area as heavily regulated as aerospace, I don't think
               | language choice matters as much as it does elsewhere. My
               | understanding is that if you're aiming for certification
               | with a standard like DO-178C and have to demonstrate
               | compliance on a line-by-line basis, ultimately only
               | compliance matters, not what language it's written in.
               | Some languages will achieve that result more easily than
               | others though. Someone please correct me if I'm off track
               | here.
        
       | bitwize wrote:
       | Wow, it's a Burroughs machine on a chip!
       | 
       | Well, two chips actually, but the idea is the important thing.
        
       | pjdesno wrote:
       | I remember reading all about it in my dad's issues of Spectrum.
        
         | suid wrote:
         | That was the starting point of my undergraduate independent
         | seminar topic.
         | 
         | Back then the complexity was even more mind-boggling, as I had
         | barely any appreciation of the object-oriented world, and the
         | idea of pushing all that into the micro-architecture was really
         | hard to get my mind around, let alone talking about it to a
         | class full of fellow students.
        
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