[HN Gopher] Gezellig - a word that encompasses the heart of Dutc...
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Gezellig - a word that encompasses the heart of Dutch Culture
Author : tim_sw
Score : 125 points
Date : 2023-04-19 11:15 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.dutchamsterdam.nl)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.dutchamsterdam.nl)
| mindcrime wrote:
| Huh. In that case, I'd say "Gezellig" is pretty gnarly[1].
|
| [1]: "gnarly" being one of those English words that can mean
| almost anything depending on context. In particular, similar to
| "Gezellig" it can mean both something like "very good /
| excellent" AND "horrible/bad". It's also frequently used to mean
| something like "difficult/dangerous/challenging".
| [deleted]
| francislavoie wrote:
| Ah yes, another fellow Ted Lasso viewer.
|
| For context, this word was a key plot point in this last night's
| episode of the show.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| this was one of the best episodes they've ever had.
| francislavoie wrote:
| The show never misses. I love it so much. So wholesome,
| always puts me in a good mood.
| oxfeed65261 wrote:
| I was just blown away. So many lovely, uplifting, funny,
| true-feeling storylines, balanced so well, leading to a
| satisfying and greater-plot-relevant conclusion and an
| absolutely perfect musical finale singalong (Bob Marley's
| "Three Little Birds") to wrap it in a bow.
|
| And (spoiler) no sex or drugs, teases to the contrary
| notwithstanding (not that there's anything wrong with sex or
| drugs, but that's not what this show is about).
|
| They did. Yes, they did.
| ValentineC wrote:
| I do wonder what the tea was that Beard tried making.
| georgebcrawford wrote:
| Mushroom.
| myspy wrote:
| Watched a little bit of the episode earlier and came to the
| same conclusion :D
| chirau wrote:
| I noticed it was really long too. Was this a season finale?
| francislavoie wrote:
| Nope, that was episode 6, the season will have 12 episodes.
|
| It's a streaming show, so they're not bound to specific
| episode lengths. If they have a story that warrants longer,
| they have the ability to stretch it. I think that's great.
| ValentineC wrote:
| +1. I just finished watching it, and it was so timely to see
| the term being posted on HN's front page!
|
| This is one of my personal top episodes alongside season 2's
| Rainbow.
| mallomarmeasle wrote:
| I am a native English speaker, and may be wrong about this, but I
| believe that the use of "de nada" from Spanish, and "de rien" in
| French to mean "you're welcome" suffer from similar loss in
| translation. Do not the former phrases imply that thanks is not
| needed?
| aidenn0 wrote:
| A close English idiom might be "Don't worry about it" or "no
| problem" in the place of "you're welcome." Even "You're
| welcome" implies this as in "You're welcome [to ask for such a
| favor in general]"
| mallomarmeasle wrote:
| That is an interesting implied addendum. However, there still
| seems to be an acknowledged favor granted, while the French
| and Spanish phrases I understand to mean that no favor was
| granted and no thanks are needed.
| morkalork wrote:
| The English equivalent is responding to someone saying thank
| you with "hey, _it 's nothing_"
| nerdbert wrote:
| No worries, mate.
| christogreeff wrote:
| The word "gesellig" in Afrikaans (daughter language of Dutch)
| pretty much conveys the same meaning as gezellig.
| diego_moita wrote:
| On the topic "untranslatable words that express a culture" here
| are my favourites:
|
| - Italian: words that express refined craftsmanship: sprezatura,
| virtuoso, capo-lavoro, affresco, al-dente, allegro/adagio, ...
|
| - French: life must be appreciated to its full: joie-de-vivre,
| bon-vivant, coquette, lingerie, gourmet, finesse, chic, ..
|
| - Japanese: a very sharp capability to appreciate what others
| can't: wabi-sabi, umami, satori, ...
|
| - English: a very ingrained respect for democracy and its values:
| accountability, grassroots/astroturf, pork-barrel, bullying,
| harassment, lobying, ...
|
| - German: a clear eyed perception that the world is dangerous and
| mean: torchlusspanic, schadenfreude,...
|
| - Brazilian Portuguese: all that matters are emotional and
| physical connections: cafune, xamego, sacanagem, ...
| OnlyMortal wrote:
| It translates as cosy. Or, in London area dialect "cushty".
| tomgp wrote:
| Cushty and cozy are not the same thing at all!
| ravedave5 wrote:
| I think craic from Irish would fit into this. Not sure if
| there's a broader category there.
| beAbU wrote:
| I tend to agree. Im not Dutch, but my language has the same
| word.
|
| My understanding is that craic means to have a good time with
| good people, and that's exactly what gesellig is.
|
| Gesellig might have broader application in this context
| though, as an event can be gesellig, a person can be
| gesellig. It's am adjective. It seems craic is used for all
| sorts of other terms which do not apply here.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| The word is of Scots origin, apparently.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| I don't know most of these languages, but I'm not so sure about
| some of your English examples. I don't think "accountability",
| "bullying", and "harassment" are that untranslatable.
|
| Whether a word is untranslatable very much depends on the
| language you're translating to. "Schadenfreude" translates
| quite directly to "leedvermaak" in Dutch, even though English
| has no word for it (therefore adopting it as a loan word).
|
| Personally, I've never really found a word in another language
| that encompasses the same meaning and connotation as
| "gezellig", though there are close contenders (like "hygge" in
| Danish). There are also words I know of in other languages that
| are in the same category, describing a feeling or perception
| that's impossible to explain (and may be shaped by culture as
| much as language).
|
| There are definitely English words that have the same problem,
| but they're still quite rare.
| gsich wrote:
| German "gesellig" is the same. But then again it is not per
| se a translation.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| The word has a similar origin and definitely works as a
| translation for one of the uses of gezellig, but it doesn't
| cover the entire definition. It helps that the languages
| are so closely related but they're different enough that I
| wouldn't call it a translation.
|
| The inverse is true of many Dutch words with a common
| German origin as well. We straight-up imported "uberhaupt"
| because there's no commonly used, single word that
| expresses the same particular thing (other than another
| loan word).
| cinntaile wrote:
| Can you give an example where the word cozy doesn't describe
| the same thing as gezellig?
| beAbU wrote:
| Not Dutch, but I speak a language that has a similar word,
| with the same meaning: "gesellig".
|
| Look at the first picture in TFA. That's gesellig. Having
| coffee on a busy terrace on a sunny day is gesellig.
|
| Spending time in front of a fireplace while it rains
| outside is cozy, not gesellig. Unless, as the article
| points out, you have friends over that are gesellig.
|
| It shares a root with "gesels" which means "to chat". And
| you have the word "geselskap" which is similar to
| "audience", but used in a more social context.
|
| Gesellig is all about having a good time with a fun crowd.
| Cozy can be this too, but it's more restrictive I think.
| Playing a drinking game while in you underwear in the snow
| might not be cozy, but it's sure as hell gesellig!
| jeroenhd wrote:
| From what I can tell you're talking about Afrikaans here.
| I think the words are extremely similar, if not the same,
| and that makes sense with Afrikaans being largely derived
| from an older Dutch dialect. The word "gesellich" was
| present in Dutch already in 1240 according to Wiktionary,
| so Afrikaans will have inherited the word from Dutch with
| much of the same meaning. Perhaps it's even exactly the
| same!
|
| I would describe spending time in front of a fireplace
| while it rains outside to be cozy (or "knus" in Dutch) as
| well, not gezellig. However, you could describe the
| fireplace and the room it's in as gezellig.
|
| I'm not sure if I'd call that a translation, though,
| because of how the languages have evolved. I wouldn't
| call color and colour translations of each other, and
| gesellig and gezellig are similarly close in written form
| and etymological history.
|
| In contrast, I find it interesting that the meaning of
| "gesels" and "geselskap" in Afrikaans is so different
| from "gezel" and "gezelschap" in Dutch. A "gezel" is a
| friend, mate, or some other person who stands with you; a
| gezelschap is a group of gezellen. I'm not aware of any
| similar verb ("vergezellen", perhaps, which means "to
| accompany"). Sadly, the Afrikaans Wiktionary is not as
| complete as the Dutch Wiktionary so I can't easily verify
| the exact relationships between these words.
| beAbU wrote:
| You are right about my language, it's indeed Afrikaans :)
|
| Interestingly, we also have the word knus, totally forgot
| about it. We also have "snoesig", which is used to
| describe being tucked in or wrapped in a blanket.
|
| So your description of geselskap (group of gezellen) is
| EXACTLY what geselskap means. Its a group of good or fun
| people, sometimes friends but not always. We don't have
| the concept of "gezel" though. Interestingly we also have
| the concept of bad (slegte) geselskap, which describes
| when you associate with the "wrong kind of people".
|
| We ALSO have vergesel, which is the verb for accompany.
| We have "metgesel", which is the noun given to the person
| accompanying you i.e. escort/chaperone or date.
|
| So for those who are not native Dutch and Afrikaans: in
| the 1650s the Dutch came to South Africa and started a
| colony. Over the centuries the Dutch dialect this side
| changed and picked up all sorts of words from local and
| other imported languages. In the early 1900s it oficially
| became it's own language. For a long time before that it
| was known as "kitchen Dutch" among other things, as it
| was the creole spoken by the slaves and servants of the
| Western Cape colonists. It's trivial for me to read and
| comprehend Dutch text, and a speaker only needs to slow
| down a little and I can follow what's being said well
| enough.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| I'm no native speaker, so correct me if I'm wrong here. I
| think "knus" is a much better translation of "cosy", and in
| some instances knus and gezellig can be used as synonyms.
| As far as I can tell "cosy" is generally associated with
| warmth, while that's not necessarily a requirement for
| something to be gezellig.
|
| - I don't think you can say someone has a cosy personality
|
| - I don't think you can say "how cosy for you to be here"
| or "let's keep it cosy in here" when the mood is turning
| sour
|
| - I don't think you would call going shopping with a group
| of friends cosy
|
| - I'm not sure if you can have a cosy conversation, but
| maybe you can?
| nohaydeprobleme wrote:
| From the article, though cozy may be a rough translation, I
| see the author's point that cozy can't be a direct, precise
| translation.
|
| The author writes that Oprah Winfrey is "gezellig," but
| it's a bit awkward to say that a person is "cozy." The
| English usage is correct to say that a person is
| "comforting." The author also writes that cheering on a
| sports team is "gezellig," along with going out in the
| evening with friends. But these activities seem high-energy
| to me, so "comforting" doesn't feel quite right (where as
| "gezellig" would feel completely right).
|
| So, "gezellig" looks like a sentiment that is a mixture of
| "warm, comforting, and at-home," which can describe a
| person and also activities that are active and not
| necessarily passive. It's translatable, so I disagree with
| the author's premise that the word "gezellig" can't be
| translated, as the word is clearly translated by the author
| with abundant examples. However, I agree with the author's
| impression that a single English word cannot define the
| term.
| diego_moita wrote:
| Sure, I'd need to know all languages in the world to say
| which are untranslatable or not.
|
| But what I can say is that these languages introduced these
| words, perceptions, themes and discourses into worldwide
| discussion.
|
| In Latin-derived languages the English words I mentioned are
| either directly imported or very new. One example: in Spanish
| and Portuguese the word "assedio" has appeared as a
| substitute for harassment. But this is a very recent
| phenomenon, until recently wife-beating wasn't even a crime
| in some Spanish/Portuguese speaking countries.
| nohaydeprobleme wrote:
| I checked a couple of bilingual dictionaries, and found
| your insight interesting that it looks like there is no
| precise direct translation for "bullying" in French or
| Spanish, but only multi-word translations like those in the
| submitted article.
|
| In French, there is "harcelement" for harassment, but
| according to WordReference.com, the closest one-word
| translations for bullying are "harcelement" or
| "intimidation" (which appear closer to harassment and
| intimidation in English) [1]. Similarly, according to
| SpanishDictionary.com, the closest translation of bullying
| is the Anglicism "el bullying," with "intimidacion" also
| used as a close but not exact equivalent [2].
|
| Similarly, the closest equivalent to "accountability"
| according to WordReference is "responsabilite," with
| Spanish similarly using "responsabilidad" as its closest
| equivalent according to SpanishDictionary. Perhaps
| "responsabilite" and "responsabilidad" can carry the same
| connotations as the English word for "accountability"
| depending on the context, but it's true that there are no
| entries for standalone words in French or Spanish in these
| dictionaries that carry the exact associations as
| "accountability" in English.
|
| [1] https://www.wordreference.com/enfr/bullying
|
| [2] https://www.spanishdict.com/translate/bullying
| arethuza wrote:
| I'm Scottish - so I'm tempted to say "dreich".... :-)
|
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50476008
| rnoorda wrote:
| My favourite thing about 'dreich' is how often people hearing
| it for the first time just... get it. The word sounds dreary
| on its own.
| arethuza wrote:
| I must admit that I've spent a lot of time walking up
| Scottish mountains in fairly dreich conditions - just makes
| me appreciate how utterly glorious this wee country is when
| it's _not_ being dreich. :-)
|
| Edit: From the comments on that BBC article:
|
| _Glasgow woman sits in the dentist 's chair.
|
| "Comfy?" says the dentist.
|
| "Govan" says the woman._
|
| Edit2: When I was a child I would have asked where someone
| was from by saying: "Far are ye fae"....
| dcminter wrote:
| As a sassenach that took me a minute (even with your
| helpful addendum)...
| galfarragem wrote:
| I'm tempted to speculate...
|
| Portuguese: saudade, fado
|
| About the feeling of missing something, somebody or past times
| and complaining about the inevitability of it. Why? Portugal is
| a country of explorers, settlers and lost territories.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| I thought "al-dente" could be translated to "undercooked".
| diego_moita wrote:
| Undercooked has a broader meaning.
|
| A steak can be undercooked but never will be al-dente.
|
| Undercooked can mean improperly cooked, al-dente always means
| properly not cooked too much.
| mentalpiracy wrote:
| Sibling comments here are good but what I think they are
| missing is a nuance of artistry that underlies a lot of GP's
| examples.
|
| So in this case, al dente means cooked to perfection. Not too
| much, not too little, and is reflective of the craftsman's
| skill.
| moolcool wrote:
| (I'm not Italian, this is wild speculation) I think it
| directly translates to something like "to the tooth", so I
| always imagine it meaning a food having a certain kind of
| "bite".
| Sharlin wrote:
| It simply means that you feel a degree of resistance or
| firmness when you bite an al dente piece of food, ie. it
| has a "tooth feel" unlike soft, fully cooked starchy
| things.
|
| An engineer might say that al dente has more shear strength
| left than fully cooked.
| beAbU wrote:
| Al dente means the pasta "bites back". Its cooked, and its
| just cooked enough that there is still some bite in it. It's
| not turned to mush.
| capableweb wrote:
| "Undercooked" means "cooked too little", al-dente is not
| "cooked too little", it's "cooked enough" in order to be al-
| dente. I guess you could say al-dente is more "not cooked too
| much" instead. Personally I cannot stand pasta that is not
| al-dente.
| dingosity wrote:
| But we (English speakers) are not above ripping off
| untranslatable words from other languages. At work I used to
| talk about fingerspitzengefuhl and schwerpunkt; we didn't even
| bother trying to translate them to English. And everyone I know
| knows about schadenfreude and zeitgeist and "je ne sais quoi."
|
| Maybe we do have translations for them. Maybe the English word
| for schadenfreude is "schadenfreude." (But yes, if you want to
| say I'm cheating, that's fine.)
| burnished wrote:
| I took that same observation as evidence! The easiest means
| of expressing that concept is to just lift the word whole
| sale
| MuffinFlavored wrote:
| how different are lekker / leuk / gezellig?
| jeroenhd wrote:
| Lekker ("tasty") and leuk ("fun") are similar when used in a
| vague sense, though when you use which word is hard to
| describe. I think the difference is similar to "liberty" and
| "freedom" in English: they mean pretty much the same thing, but
| you wouldn't say "liberty of speech".
|
| Gezellig is different, it doesn't just mean "good" or "nice",
| it evokes a very specific feeling.
| icoder wrote:
| To me, gezellig(heid) could never happen without the company of
| others, as opposed to leuk and lekker (the latter being the
| biggest outlier to me, just describing food or perhaps physical
| attractiveness of a person).
| DonHopkins wrote:
| "Woord van het jaar 2008" Swaffelen (of zwaffelen) is het
| aantikken met de penis, vaak met herhaalde bewegingen, van
| andermans lichaam of een voorwerp.
|
| https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaffelen
| Fnoord wrote:
| Vakantieman! Gezellig heh? (Rolleyes)
| Lammy wrote:
| I learned this word from Studio Massa
| https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYXU4Ir4-8GPeP4lKT9ae...
| vrglvrglvrgl wrote:
| [dead]
| Gordonjcp wrote:
| Aha, the new "hygge"! I was wondering what was going to come
| along next...
| DrNosferatu wrote:
| Mysig? Hygge? Koselig? Kawaii?
| balsam wrote:
| It's a family of North Sea words at various stages of
| commercialization/gentrification:
| koselig,gesellig,hygge,cosagach,cozy.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| The Dutch would be crazy not to package up their gezellig
| coffeeshop and brown cafe culture, decor, and furniture in
| shipping containers for export, and deploy them in American
| states and other countries that have legalized cannabis, the
| same way the Irish package and ship entire prefabricated pubs
| around the world.
|
| https://medium.com/@Thrillist/how-the-irish-ship-entire-pubs...
|
| >How the Irish ship entire pubs around the world
|
| >You may not have been to Ireland, but you've still pulled up a
| stool to a Dublin-made bar counter.
| frantathefranta wrote:
| Many people got _that_ hygge book, but it 's funny when you
| actually go to Denmark and find out most of it is actually made
| up. Hygge is real, but it's being pushed way more now that it's
| become a global word.
| Tade0 wrote:
| I got a taste of this pop-culture version in my corner of the
| world a few years ago, where apparently it meant furniture in
| all white, fake white bricks on the walls and, above all,
| offensive amounts of 3000-4000K light from LEDs.
| sprkwd wrote:
| We have a new build housing estate not far away called Hygge
| Park or something similar. Really dates it to a moment in
| time.
| brokenkebaby wrote:
| There's no such thing as "untranslatable words", and every text
| which claims existence of one, immediately translates it. The
| linked story is no different, of course.
| crote wrote:
| The problem with translations is that they are not a 1:1
| mapping. When you translate, you look for a word with a
| _similar_ meaning. For some words there simply isn 't a close-
| enough word in the target language to be meaningful.
|
| It is like trying to map integers to floats. You can get a
| close approximation, but a conversion doesn't always make
| sense.
| alexfromapex wrote:
| Seems like we'd say "chill" in the American English vernacular?
| preommr wrote:
| Or 'shit' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igh9iO5BxBo
| jbverschoor wrote:
| Nope.. we also use chill. Gezellig is different
| alexfromapex wrote:
| Yeah it's a different word but the meaning seems very close
| if it can be substituted in 95%+ of contexts. Curious to hear
| an example where it doesn't fit.
| wenc wrote:
| I have a connection to both American and Dutch cultures and
| the the feeling is very different. People have tried to
| describe it in words but it's a feeling that is
| contextually inferred and hard to completely describe in
| words without being reductionist. Dutch people on this
| thread are correct in pushing back. This is what ChatGPT
| says -- which is more or less on on the right track:
|
| "No, "chill" and "gezellig" are not the same.
|
| "Chill" is an English term used to describe a relaxed and
| easy-going atmosphere or situation. It can refer to a
| person's demeanor, a social setting, or an activity that is
| low-key and stress-free.
|
| "Gezellig" is a Dutch term that is difficult to translate
| directly to English, but it generally refers to a cozy and
| convivial atmosphere or feeling of togetherness. It can
| refer to a physical space, a social gathering, or a mood.
| It is often associated with warmth, comfort, and
| hospitality, and is an important aspect of Dutch culture."
| vimy wrote:
| It's more about the feeling. I would never use chill when
| something is gezellig. It feels different. I think cozy is
| a better English word.
| alexfromapex wrote:
| Okay, sounds like you're making a completely subjective
| assessment, based on your own preferences. Totally fine,
| but does not mean I'm wrong. One thing that would really
| help would be if there were a definitive case where it
| did not fit.
| JW_00000 wrote:
| Christmas eve with your family is gezellig, but you
| wouldn't describe it as chill. I'd also call it cozy.
| stinos wrote:
| Do you speak Dutch? Anyway that 95% number seems also
| fetched from your personal experience, because the
| meaning of 'chill', in my experience, is just too
| different for that.
|
| Here's an example which (again, for me) doesn't quite
| fit: when talking about a party with music and dancing
| and saying it is 'chill' we'd mean that it was relaxed,
| enough space to dance, no drunk idiots, fun overall, and
| so on. We might _add_ to it that it was 'gezellig', not
| use instead, but then we'd mean there were also lot of
| friends around and/or new friends being made. While
| there's a link with being chill, they could just as well
| be orthogonal. Like 'it was gezellig but too bad it was
| so crowded' means it wasn't chill at all.
| alexfromapex wrote:
| Thanks for providing an example, that's what I was
| wondering about. I don't need to speak Dutch to make a
| valid argument, based on the synonymous examples already
| observed, that is a genetic fallacy. Yes, 95% number was
| contrived for the sake of conversation, based on the
| article. ChatGPT estimated it's actually around 70%.
| Sounds like its meaning is incredibly nebulous but maybe
| a blending of chill and friendly.
| Aeolun wrote:
| > I don't need to speak Dutch to make a valid argument
|
| Technically not, but practically it really helps your
| chances of being correct.
|
| Without knowing both languages you're more or less
| guessing.
| alexfromapex wrote:
| Correct. Which is why I posed it in the form of a
| question.
| Aeolun wrote:
| I think one major difference is that it's easy to chill
| on your own.
|
| It's really hard for something to be gezellig when you
| are alone, it almost always refers to the people around
| you, or a location that you'd be happy to meet people.
| Like, an empty house or cafe is basically never gezellig.
|
| My god I never expected that would be so hard to explain.
| alexfromapex wrote:
| Can't be "cozy" on your own? Maybe the article explained
| it wrong? My god, please tone down your self-
| righteousness.
| Aeolun wrote:
| Yeah, you can be cozy on your own, which is why it's not
| a perfect translation.
|
| Like, you could go by yourself to a little out of the way
| cottage, hearthfire burning, super cozy! But it's not
| gezellig, because there's no other people involved.
|
| Did you mistake me, or did I somehow come off as
| excessively self-righteous?
| jbverschoor wrote:
| When you play boardgames.. gezellig
|
| When you celebrate Christmas.. gezellig
|
| When you have dinner.. gezellig
|
| Also, something can look like it's gezellig, which
| translates more like cozy
|
| For example.. Christmas decoration, gezellig!
| vanger wrote:
| My favorite Dutch eyes is Swaffelen (or zwaffelen or dick-slap)
| is a Dutch term meaning to hit one's soft or semi-hard penis -
| often repeatedly - against an object or another person's body.
| Swaffelen was named as the word of the year in the Netherlands
| and Belgium in 2008.
| icoder wrote:
| Don't forget the Taj Mahal 'gate'
| [deleted]
| aj7 wrote:
| I'm willing to bet you that the French are more gezellig than the
| Dutch.
| yawpitch wrote:
| Interesting... seems that Dutch gezellig is something similar to
| the Danish notion of hygge, but without the sense of "an almost
| pathological taste for Poul Henningsen lamps as a means to tame
| whatever it was that drove Danish men to spend their lives Viking
| across the Atlantic".
|
| But then my experience in Denmark was very narrowly spent with my
| ex-wife's family there, so maybe I'd have gotten hygge with it
| eventually.
| qikInNdOutReply wrote:
| Gesselig in german is a word for "company loving/loving it
| lively" and gemuetlich is a word for "homely/cozy".
|
| Its a funny case of words shifting meaning, while still sounding
| similar.
| hestefisk wrote:
| Is this like the Danish "hyggelig"?
| lumiukko wrote:
| At the very least they are similar in the way they pretend that
| these concepts are not translatable.
| ZunarJ5 wrote:
| Yeah, most Northern European countries have a variant of this
| word. Hygge is the best.
| rob74 wrote:
| Languages are fascinating! German has an almost identical word
| ("gesellig" - https://dict.leo.org/german-english/gesellig), but
| with a different meaning that can easily be translated as
| "sociable" (referring to a person) most of the time. Looks like
| the Dutch extended it to places that encourage being sociable?
| fs111 wrote:
| In German it can also mean a place is cosy and vibrant. We use
| it for more than just people.
| somedude895 wrote:
| > be translated as "sociable" (referring to a person) most of
| the time.
|
| Gesellig is also used for occasions, like a geselliger Abend as
| also listed on the Leo link. In Switzerland it's sometimes also
| used for places like a geselliges Restaurant. From that
| perspective I use the German word in pretty much the same way.
|
| Side note: The adjective likely comes from "Gesellschaft,"
| which can mean "society" but also "company."
| nwellnhof wrote:
| > In Switzerland it's sometimes also used for places like a
| geselliges Restaurant.
|
| In Bavaria and probably the rest of (Southern?) Germany as
| well. I doubt there's much difference between the German and
| Dutch words.
| mihaic wrote:
| Not a native German speaker, but for me the word "gemutlich"
| came to mind as their equivalent, at least from what I
| understood from the article.
| FlyingSnake wrote:
| IMO Gemutlich is more closer to "cozy" rather than "Convival"
| which Gezellig is being used for in Dutch.
| mihaic wrote:
| Thanks for the clarification.
| pieter_mj wrote:
| You mean convivial (the same word in French, slightly
| different meaning)
| bedatadriven wrote:
| Yes convivial is the perfect translation for gezellig. I
| don't understand why articles about gezelligheid always
| claim that it is somehow untranslateable!
| Fnoord wrote:
| Gemoedelijk is probably the Dutch word which is
| linguistically related to the one you mention. Interestingly,
| it has no megative connotation, but it won't be a word used
| much in randstad (the densely populated ~West of The
| Netherlands). So it is by definition not as popular as
| gezellig.
| gattilorenz wrote:
| Similarly, Germans might find the Dutch usage of "lekker" (lit.
| "tasty", same root of German "lecker") quite... inconsiderate:
| it of course applies to food, but it's way common to use it for
| relaxing, enjoyable activities (you can sleep and sit "lekker",
| and something can also "go lekker" - meaning it goes well).
|
| At least, that's what I made out of, but I welcome a proper
| explanation from a native speaker!
| codethief wrote:
| Interesting, it seems quite similar to "rico" in Spanish.
| Avalaxy wrote:
| In Dutch, lekker also means tasty. But like you said, it also
| applies to many other things. Even to people (that woman is
| lekker, as in hot).
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| Languages need words with specific meaning, and also words
| that are broad and vague. "lekker" is in the same category
| as "nice" in English. The imprecision is useful sometimes.
| djmips wrote:
| Sweet! Is also used in English. But lecker makes me think of
| delectable.
| rob74 wrote:
| Actually in the part of Germany next to the Dutch border,
| "lecker" already starts being used that way. For example,
| someone from Cologne might call a nice girl/woman a "lecker
| Mad(s)che" (https://verliebtinkoeln-com.translate.goog/die-
| bedeutung-von...).
| Scarblac wrote:
| And the sarcasm / hostility potential it has. Rot lekker op.
| wouldbecouldbe wrote:
| hahaha well for dutch the way Germans use Geil (horny) is
| quite funny, using it 5 times per conversation for things you
| like is quite normal for Germans.
| Fnoord wrote:
| 'Haben sie gespart? Ja, wochen.' is a German two-liner my
| wife and I use a lot (we are both Dutch). Not even in a
| sexual way, btw.
|
| I'm not even sure where its from. Probably some comedian.
|
| Tina, was kosten die kondome? Tina replies: 3,99. To which
| a customer says: Nein, 2,99, sie sind in Sonderausverkauf.
| rapnie wrote:
| And further with 'ape horny' as Dutch hear it: "Dass ist ja
| affengeil!" (That's awesome!)
| wouldbecouldbe wrote:
| What makes it even funnier is it even means horny in
| German. The young kids just turned it into meaning
| "cool". So now you have 40+ year olds saying how horny a
| presenation is in a corporate board room.
| yamtaddle wrote:
| In English, "sexy" is routinely applied to things that
| are not, literally, sexy, including in many business
| contexts, and largely for cases in which "cool" would
| work just as well (especially before the meaning of the
| word "cool" became a bit diluted). A sexy car, a sexy
| logo, a sexy pivot table--potentially none of them having
| anything to do with sex, in fact, it just means "cool"
| (they may be sex-adjacent in some sense, sure, but only
| in the same way that "cool" things generally are--in this
| usage, the words are basically interchangeable).
|
| We've got "to get a hard on for" (or, "to get wet for")
| used for "likes very much", in "low" English registers. A
| bit less politely, perhaps (I don't have a read on
| exactly how offensive this usage is? If it is at all?)
| "to be gay for", as in "Tim's gay for Zelda games" is
| somewhat common. May have originated with or been
| popularized by South Park? Not sure. Though, unlike
| "sexy", none of those are common in business outside
| incredibly-brotastic environments.
| christkv wrote:
| Norwegians use the word "koselig" for pretty much everything
| positive lol.
| anordal wrote:
| Yes. I can't take the "untranslatable" claim for good fish when
| the article doesn't address this obvious objection: Any
| Norwegian or Danish reader can see that it's the same word as
| "koselig", likely even etymologically.
| m000 wrote:
| I wish Amsterdam weather was also gezellig...
| Aeolun wrote:
| 2 out of 12 months it's pretty nice.
|
| That said, I moved to a warmer country and while I enjoy the
| sun, I'm getting really nostalgic for the pleasant Dutch
| temperatures.
| alentred wrote:
| "Enjoyable" ?
|
| The article makes an impression that "gezellig" is somewhat close
| to French "savoir-vivre", "la vie est belle", Italian "dolce
| vita", and maybe even Latin "carpe diem"?
|
| It looks like multiple cultures have similar appreciation to
| spending one's time _well_ , but also focus on different aspects
| of what " _well_ " means.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| > The article makes an impression that "gezellig" is somewhat
| close to French "savoir-vivre", "la vie est belle", Italian
| "dolce vita", and maybe even Latin "carpe diem"?
|
| I don't speak those languages, but I don't think those words
| are an apt translation. The word doesn't really describe a way
| of life, or the enjoyment of life in particular, it's more of a
| vibe or an emotional state or an emotional association to a
| certain place, event, or situation. The English word
| "convivial" seems to come pretty close, though from the example
| sentences I can find I still think the meaning is slightly
| different.
|
| I find it quite difficult to accurately describe my perception
| of the word "gezellig" without anecdotes of shared experiences.
| I believe savoir-vivre and dolce vita are similar in that way;
| there are direct translations, but they all miss some element
| of what the original meant.
| louwrentius wrote:
| No, "gezellig" is like just being with a bunch of friends
| having fun. Everybody is happy talking to each other, mood is
| great, maybe some food and drinks available.
|
| At least as a native that's how I always interpret it. It's
| always in a setting with people.
| dkural wrote:
| Keyif in Turkish comes to mind.
| gbraad wrote:
| oh I hate this word; as it is also often used in a fake way.
| "Gezellig he"
| peterpost2 wrote:
| I wonder if this is written by an actual Dutch person. About half
| the examples make no sense, they are using the word it as an
| adjective for people, something I don't think I've seen Dutch
| people(including myself) do
|
| Also the author complains of the overcommercialization of the
| Danish Hygge, pretty sure gezellig is there already.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| This article gets a bit closer to the core of the matter:
| https://directdutch.com/2013/05/word-of-the-day-gezellig/
|
| As a Dutch person, worth pointing out that we Dutch people like
| using words in an ironic sense. So using the word gezellig in
| situations are anything but gezellig is ironic and therefore
| something people might do. But it adds to the confusion.
|
| But basically it usually refers to situations, locations, or
| meetings of people being either gezellig (enjoyable, agreeable,
| etc.) or the opposite, ongezellig.
| stinos wrote:
| _So using the word gezellig in situations are anything but
| gezellig is ironic_
|
| For me (in Belgium) I hear and use it in that ironic/mocking
| sense _way_ more often. Whereas indeed in the Netherlands it
| is super common to use it in the normal sense.
| Fnoord wrote:
| Yet, you would not assume the word gemoedelijk is used in an
| ironic or sarcastic context. Often its used to ensure it is
| explained positive. The atmosphere in the Arena of the match
| Ajax - Feyenoord is gemoedelijk vs (ouderwets) gezellig.
| icoder wrote:
| Is that irony really just a defining characteristic of
| gezellig? Thinking of 'leuk', or 'lekker dan', 'joepie',
| 'mooi is dat', and probably many others, or in English
| 'great', 'just perfect'.
| Scarblac wrote:
| No, it's used non ironically too.
|
| Nice that you mention "lekker", that means something like
| "tasty" or "nice" but it can also ooze sarcasm and be used
| to turn just about anything into a sneer.
| mpol wrote:
| And sometimes, things can be too gezellig. Like hanging out
| in a karaoke bar. Or going to a Dutch music festival
| (Piratenfestival). Not really my cup of tea, way "te
| gezellig".
| balsam wrote:
| Can always move on to Koselig, even shorter distance to 'cozy'
| art3m wrote:
| My favorite word in Dutch is morning greeting: goeiemorgen. In
| Russian it sounds like dick-morgen which is ridiculous if you're
| native Russian speaker. This song
| (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9H-ffphZf8&ab_channel=Eurov...)
| even went viral in Russia because of this (goeiedag sounds like
| bullshit also).
|
| P.S. Link from the post doesn't open in Russia ("Country
| blocked") and I had to use VPN to read it lol. It's ONGEZELLIG to
| block someone read article about cozy and ecologic living.
| aequitas wrote:
| Or what about the polite Dutch for thank you: 'Dank u', which
| in French is heard as 'Dans cul', which is something completely
| different.
| tokai wrote:
| [flagged]
| cies wrote:
| [flagged]
| vanger wrote:
| [flagged]
| unconed wrote:
| Little known fact! "Whataboutism" is an expression in
| English which means "I realize your example undercuts my
| argument, for it reveals it is not based on consistent,
| defensible principles, so I will just slap a label on it
| and declare it irrelevant to the discussion."
| deserialized wrote:
| 2 things can be bad at once
| vanger wrote:
| Interesting fact - there is a russian word for the
| feeling you are experiencing - when you feel bad because
| you understand that your opponent is having a point, you
| feel bad about it but instead of admitting it you are
| trying to be sarcastic - it is called "prigorayet" and is
| always associated with burning sensation just below your
| lower back.
| unconed wrote:
| I'm not trying to be sarcastic, in my experience my
| definition is actually spot on.
|
| My opinion on the conflict in Ukraine is that one crooked
| state is fighting another, each side is fighting dirty,
| and neither side deserves my tax money for it. And I
| especially will not cheer on yet another conflict that
| the US has its dirty fingers in.
|
| But calling it genocide is either hysteria or outright
| propaganda. We're not talking Rwanda here.
|
| For the rest of your comment: get better at modeling your
| opponents before you psychoanalyze their feelings.
| dang wrote:
| " _Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents._ "
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| Fnoord wrote:
| The Russians residing in Russia who visit this website and
| express they use a VPN to access blocked content are likely
| to disagree with Putin and his cronies. Chances are they know
| what's up.
| usrnm wrote:
| A bit late to jump on your high horse, m8, it's an American
| site after all
| pieter_mj wrote:
| For context, the performers Nicole & Hugo are from the Flemish
| (Dutch speaking) part of Belgium, not the Netherlands. Nicole
| recently passed away.
| Fnoord wrote:
| Trust me, Russian can be equally hilarious for us Dutch. Its
| just that Dutch is a less widely spoken language.
|
| Blyat for example almost reads like blaat which to us is the
| sound a sheep makes. It also refers to blaten, talking
| nonsense.
|
| The English word cunt sounds like the Dutch kunt which means
| can (je kunt means you can). Kunt gets censored in a popular
| game, even if the rest of sentence is Dutch.
|
| Then we have German where an English listener might think
| bisschen means bitch, and generally an English speaker might
| think a German is angry while its just the sound of the
| language (in contrast to, say, French).
|
| Recently, some Dutch song (I think it was Belgian?) went viral
| in Ukraine as well.
|
| Anyway, as a native Dutch speaker with autism, gezellig is
| equal to Orwellian double speak like Russian pravda (theres
| other examples, too). If its gezellig for others, it might very
| well not be for me. Or its tokkie level (tokkie = white trash).
| In other words, not a word I value when others use it.
|
| EDIT: I believe you might find this song by a comedian weird
| for different reasons than intended:
| https://youtu.be/ATdRtTtzZ3c (he is singing good morning, good
| afternoon, its like this: I am a customer).
| hydrok9 wrote:
| Im a native English speaker and spent 2.5 weeks in NL, by the
| end i was getting nauseous from all the "oo's", "ieu's", and
| words that my head could almost understand but not quite.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| I'm from the US. I was in Amsterdam on a business trip, and
| I felt the same thing, but a lot faster than in 2.5 weeks.
| Fortunately, I found a Uruguayan steak house. I went there
| for dinners. The waiters were speaking Spanish, and I
| thought, "Yes! This feels like home!"
| englishrookie wrote:
| Spanish in Amsterdam? That sounds refreshing. Whenever I
| eat at a restaurant in Amsterdam, I get served in English
| about 80% of the time.
| WeylandYutani wrote:
| This started in Amsterdam in the 1990s but now also
| happens in regional cities. Restaurants in Breda of all
| places has English speaking staff. At least there is
| still a head waiter who speaks Dutch. I personally don't
| mind much. Whenever someone on Reddit says the
| Netherlands is xenophobic it makes me laugh.
| bigmattystyles wrote:
| Equally funny to me, The French add an 'e' to Putin when
| referring to him, probably because Putain sounds like Putin,
| which is basically the french F-word, especially in its
| ability to be swapped out for effect like the F-word.
| https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/putain
| bitwize wrote:
| Rather than risk confusion with _putain_ (whore), the
| French opted to spell Putin 's name phonetically in French
| -- and settled on "Poutine".
|
| And the Canadians giggled.
| bigmattystyles wrote:
| Ha! What do they do in Quebec?
| art3m wrote:
| It's interesting, thanks. I played in Gran Turismo with Dutch
| folks and they taught me to swear a bit.
| axpvms wrote:
| Dutch can also sound exquisitely hilarious to an English
| speaker, hoor.
| kschiffer wrote:
| Or a German speaker-or any other language speaker I
| guess...
| deafpolygon wrote:
| Ja, hoor!~
| smcl wrote:
| > Kunt gets censored in a popular game
|
| Ahhhh a distant cousin to the "Scunthorpe problem" - English
| and Dutch are not so dissimilar after all!
|
| Related problem I saw recently, guy called Nasser had the
| "ass" in his name in some game's chat replaced with the
| string "***" taking a very common name and making it look
| like he named himself perhaps the worst word in the English
| language. Very unfortunate.
| to11mtm wrote:
| Had this problem in a Star Trek game.
|
| Pakled is a specific race of aliens in the game and
| universe (TNG Samaritan Snare), but would get caught in the
| filter (Assuming due to Pakistanis?)
| smcl wrote:
| I remember them from my recent (~2 yrs ago, wow) re-watch
| of TNG! Their strategy was to look helpless to trick
| bypassers into helping them out, since they were not
| clever enough to do engineering work etc themselves.
| ur-whale wrote:
| Someone's been watching Ted Lasso.
| glitchc wrote:
| English has a few: cool, hot, dope, chill, lit...
| uwagar wrote:
| [flagged]
| getoffmyyawn wrote:
| As a foreigner 10 years into living in the Netherlands, I find
| this article a bit shallow. Yes gezellig is a word and concept I
| frequently encounter but to say it encompasses the heart of Dutch
| Culture makes no sense to me. I think only someone who hasn't
| spent a lot of time with Dutch people would say something like
| that.
|
| Sort of like saying the word "awesome" encompasses the heart of
| American culture.
| Scarblac wrote:
| Wait until you hear about the Dutch concept of "niksen" (
| https://time.com/5622094/what-is-niksen/)...
|
| Its a type of fluff article that you can find about many
| mundane words from around the world, trying to make them into
| some wonderful concept that's just what the US is missing.
|
| I guess the authors of such articles need to pay their bills
| too, but it's a bit surprising to see one on here.
| tinco wrote:
| Companionable. It's the most direct translation, and it's very
| close to how we use the word "gezellig". We just use the word a
| _lot_ more frequently. The warm feeling you get when you are with
| friendly company, even if that 's just your own company, that's
| what we call companionable and it's a theme that's central to
| Dutch culture. If you'll agree Christmas is the most
| companionable time of the year, I think you're very close to
| understanding to why the Dutch want everything to be
| companionable.
| emmelaich wrote:
| I'd suggest "convivial" is a little closer.
| tinco wrote:
| Oh interesting, yeah at least the dictionary seems to hit all
| the keywords except friendly, hitting social instead which
| might or might not be accurate. "Living-together-ness" would
| be the literal translation, which is a bit weird but if
| that's how it's used then at least in use it might be a lot
| closer than companionable.
| andrepd wrote:
| From the perspective of a southern European, neither
| "convivial" nor "companionable" are the words that spring to
| mind when I think of Dutch people :)
| TheRealPomax wrote:
| From the perspective of a Dutchman: same. "Gezellig"
| _really_ doesn 't sum up the heart of Dutch culture in the
| slightest - not to mention it's _old_ , if you show up at a
| party and someone goes "gezellig", it's time to leave, this
| is your grandparents' party. Or you have some extremely
| boring middle class "huisje boompje beestje" ("buy a house,
| plant a tree, get a pet" to refer to settling down and
| never aspiring to anything after) friends, of course.
| gattilorenz wrote:
| From the perspective of a fellow southern European living
| in NL, there's definitely a different way of interpreting
| it.
|
| Gezellig is also... an atmosphere, a vibe. You are sitting
| alone in your garden at dusk in a summer evening, there's a
| cool breeze, very soft garden lights are on, just enough to
| let you read your book... that can be gezellig, even if
| you're alone. Or you're in a pub with 10 friends, chugging
| beers... also gezellig. Dining in a southern European
| restaurant with bright lights... not very gezellig, you'll
| probably need people around to make up for that :)
|
| In a sense, Dutch people are more convivial than us: they
| can find conviviality without having people around. But
| that's the point I guess: "convivial" is a limiting
| translation to begin with.
| SanderNL wrote:
| We are a special bunch, I'll give you that.
| [deleted]
| semi-extrinsic wrote:
| It's basically similar to to "hyggelig" in Norwegian/Danish?
| rsendv wrote:
| Yeah, that's my takeaway too
| slothtrop wrote:
| Mandarin has a word for that as well, I've forgotten it.
| cwbrandsma wrote:
| I've usually translated it to "cozy" with a bit of "at ease"
| and "comfortable". But, I'm an American that speaks some Dutch
| (all my family are from the Netherlands, but I'm born in USA),
| so I'm not completely fluent.
| jbverschoor wrote:
| I'm surprised they don't talk about "gezelschap", from which the
| word is derived. That means companion/companionship.
| FlyingSnake wrote:
| This sounds suspiciously close to "Gesellschaft" in German. Are
| they related somewhere in the upstream branches?
| vajrabum wrote:
| Wiktionary says yes.
| https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gezelschap
| stinos wrote:
| 'derived' isn't the correct term here possibly. More like they
| both derive from the same common term 'gezel' (which is also a
| word on it's own meaning 'buddy' or 'fellow traveller' or
| 'fellow worker'). In gezel-lig the 'lig' is for making it an
| adjective. In gezel-schap the 'schap' ('schaft' in German)
| indicates something like 'more people' or 'company'.
| jbverschoor wrote:
| yeah, it's a level higher up "metgezel" for example
| s3p wrote:
| What a coincidence, I heard this word for the first time on the
| latest episode of Ted Lasso, which released yesterday.
| [deleted]
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