[HN Gopher] Mini-States and Micro-Sovereignty: Democracies in Ea...
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Mini-States and Micro-Sovereignty: Democracies in East Central
Europe, 1918-1923
Author : benbreen
Score : 75 points
Date : 2023-04-18 02:11 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.cambridge.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.cambridge.org)
| nsajko wrote:
| Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Cadres
| hackandthink wrote:
| In western parts of Germany something similar happened, for
| example the Bavarian Soviet Republic. And it ended similar:
| nationalist troops killed the people.
|
| (though it was much worse in East Central Europe: Polish-Soviet
| War, Ukrainian War of Independence)
|
| "In the first months of 1919, in the wake of uprisings, soviet
| republics were proclaimed in Bremen, Munich and Saxony. The
| deployment of Freikorps troops put a violent end to them by the
| beginning of May of that year at the latest."
|
| https://www.bpb.de/themen/deutschlandarchiv/54085/raete-im-d...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Soviet_Republic
| lo_zamoyski wrote:
| Not sure what you're claiming here:
|
| > And it ended similar: nationalist troops killed the people
| [...] though it was much worse in East Central Europe: Polish-
| Soviet War, Ukrainian War of Independence
|
| The Polish-Soviet War was not a war of "nationalists killing
| the people". It was a war to prevent the spread of communism
| and Soviet imperialism. Not only did Poles by and large reject
| communism (communist sympathy was higher in Germany, for
| example), and Soviet communism even more so, but Lenin saw
| Poland as the corridor through which the Red Army would need to
| pass to support revolution further West.
| rebolek wrote:
| not sure who were the nationalists, but soviets were killing
| people by millions, making nazis jealous how effective were
| they with killing
| nsajko wrote:
| > not sure who were the nationalists
|
| See Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freikorps
|
| > soviets were killing people by millions, making nazis
| jealous how effective were they with killing
|
| You're confusing the USSR ("the soviets") with
| socialism/communism/other stuff in general.
| odiroot wrote:
| > (though it was much worse in East Central Europe: Polish-
| Soviet War, Ukrainian War of Independence)
|
| Poland was actually lucky, because the Soviets lost. At least
| back then, until they attacked us again in 1939.
| Haga wrote:
| [dead]
| baybal2 wrote:
| [dead]
| fogzen wrote:
| Interesting. Scale is an often overlooked aspect of politics. On
| this point, I highly recommend "The Breakdown of Nations" by
| Leopold Kohr, which is an entire treatise on the (negative)
| effects of size on nations.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| I've been reading Bloodlands, by Prof. Tim Snyder. I've also
| watched his entire series of Yale lectures on Ukrainian history.
| His account is remarkable (I'm only 1/4 of the way through
| Bloodlands).
|
| He doesn't mention any of this. It seems to be a serious
| omission.
| slackfan wrote:
| Post-1917-pre-1930-ish eastern european/north asian history in
| general is fascinating. However, even moreso than most
| histories, it's been politicized, warped, twisted, rewritten,
| and wiped out by any number of ruling groups to fit their own
| victors' version of history. It's also a political landmine
| studying which can still get you locked up in certain parts of
| the world, unless you do it in the _correct_ way.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| The paper begins by saying that this viewpoint is a new and
| unexplored academic angle. If you think of a "cathedral versus
| the bazaar" point of view, and that academics are often
| employed by the cathedral owners, then a missing grass-roots
| point of view is no surprise.
|
| 20th century atrocity certainly is overwhelming to know, but it
| was a wave not an impact from space. The history in Central
| Asia is swarms of invaders, again and again.. it was literally
| the winning tactic in the eyes of many over a very long time,
| because the losers are just dead!
|
| Your professor's "blood" book probably makes him some coin.
| Arrath wrote:
| An excellent, yet extremely depressing, book.
| HillRat wrote:
| These micro-republics didn't leave any lasting trace on the
| land, unlike the successful neo-nationalist movements (e.g.,
| Tiso's Slovak Republic) that landed on one side or another of
| World War Two. I tend to think of them as the tail end of the
| 19th century _kulturkampfs_ that swept nationalism,
| clericalism, liberalism, and socialism into a ferment of
| conflict from 1848 on; by the time Hitler rolls through, and
| Stalin after him, most of this has been steamrolled into a
| smaller number of national and ideological movements. Having
| said that, viewing the invasion of Ukraine and the complex
| political machinations of the Central European Visegrad states
| through the lens of this time period is, I think, fruitful, and
| explains some things (such as the Russian insistence on going
| to war to "defend" Russophones abroad) that are otherwise
| unintuitive if not inexplicable to Americans and many
| Europeans.
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(page generated 2023-04-19 23:01 UTC)