[HN Gopher] Why do ships use "port" and "starboard" instead of "...
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Why do ships use "port" and "starboard" instead of "left" and
"right?"
Author : snitzr
Score : 55 points
Date : 2023-04-18 21:58 UTC (1 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (oceanservice.noaa.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (oceanservice.noaa.gov)
| fishtoaster wrote:
| Because you need to differentiate between "my left when facing
| the boat" and "my left when on the boat facing forward" or
| really, left from any other perspective.
|
| And any time there's a multi-word phrase like that that gets used
| a lot over many years, it gets shortened.
| 867-5309 wrote:
| they need the same for humans
|
| "raise you left hand. no, your other left!"
| gkoberger wrote:
| Of course, but this article explains what each word means.
|
| Starboard => Means "steering side of the boat" (b/c the oar was
| on the right side due to sailors mostly being right handed)
|
| Port => The side that faces the port when docked
| oriettaxx wrote:
| better https://www.divescotty.com/underwater-blog/boat-side-
| starboa...
| pwagland wrote:
| I like this description, but I have always thought that the
| saying "There is some red port left in the bottle" a much
| simpler way of remembering the conjunction of these terms.
| Assuming you are fasting forwards in the boat of course!
| taeric wrote:
| Much better explanation! Thanks for linking it in.
| jeffwass wrote:
| Great description of the meaning behind the red and green
| lights on boats, thanks for sharing.
| tim_hutton wrote:
| The only was I can remember which is port and starboard is by
| thinking about boarding an airplane. The steps/tunnel are always
| docked on the 'port' side, just as boats always dock on the port
| side. The cockpit/bow is always on your left when you board.
| cyberax wrote:
| My shortcut: "port" and "left" have the same number of letters.
| zwily wrote:
| I've always remembered it by "port and left both have 4
| letters". It has always worked for me.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| I always remember the phrase 'there's no port left in the
| bottle'. Similarly, the port-side navigation lights are red,
| the same colour as port.
| harry8 wrote:
| Always? Ferries are boats, demonstrably not true there as they
| dock both sides.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| And "fore" and "aft" are useful to disambiguate the ends of
| boats that flip 90 degrees in pitch, because the front
| becomes the top and the back becomes the bottom.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULvLeK9O7fY
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shPATcV9Dzw
| tudjvhh wrote:
| It's not true in general that boats always dock on the port
| side.
| xiphias2 wrote:
| They should get rid of these terms, as they are distracting.
|
| A big part of the training material for boating license is about
| learning things that people are not using in practice, which
| makes less time / mental power to learn what is really important
| to survive and avoid crash (what's really important).
| CardenB wrote:
| They are not distracting. There are many intense situations on
| a boat, and a crew is required to cooperate in order to
| survive. This means you must have extremely precise wording to
| quickly explain what needs to be done. This vocabulary is
| important for this reason, and is able to sharpen focus, rather
| than distract.
|
| It requires a process of learning, and that is intentional.
| lsaferite wrote:
| In English "right" is one syllable and "starboard" is two.
| All things considered, using right/left is more concise. If
| you are aware enough of your orientation on a boat to know
| where port and starboard are located, you are also aware
| enough to know where left and right are located.
| wpietri wrote:
| Concision is way less important than clarity.
| java-man wrote:
| I wonder why more people are right-handed. What could be a
| biological basis for that?
| GuB-42 wrote:
| There is an interesting game theory explanation.
|
| Having the opposite handedness of most other people (i.e. being
| left-handed) is an advantage in a fight. That's because
| righties are used to fight against other righties because most
| people are righties, lefties are also used to fight against
| other righties. It means that when a lefty fights a righty, the
| lefty is in a familiar situation while the righty is not,
| giving the lefty an advantage. And indeed, in many sports where
| you have an opponent, at high level, there is a higher than
| normal proportion of lefties.
|
| On the other hand (pun not intended), having the same
| handedness as most other people (i.e. being right-handed) is an
| avantage for cooperation. For example, to righties can easily
| share a tool made for righties, but it will be awkward for a
| lefty.
|
| So there are two opposing forces here: cooperation tends to
| make people of all the same handedness, while competition
| pushes for a 50/50 distribution. We are at about 90/10,
| suggesting that the cooperation aspect is more important but
| not absolutely so.
|
| That dominant side is the right side is probably just due to
| random chance. That it doesn't differ between population groups
| suggest that it happened before humans spread around the globe,
| possibly before humans were human.
| tomohelix wrote:
| Probably the same reason why most biomolecules are chiral, i.e.
| having left and right side.
|
| Last time I read about this, I think some physicist said
| something about the rotation of elementary particles and
| radiation stuff that are way over my head.
| wpietri wrote:
| I doubt that, as we left-handers are made up of the same sort
| of molecule as everybody else.
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| "It's complicated."
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handedness#Causes
| rmrk wrote:
| It's funny to me that some olaf 1000 years ago just called them
| what they were; the steering side and the docking side, and now
| we have to use the same words which don't make any sense to us. I
| vote we just call them the steering-side and the docking-side
| again.
| wpietri wrote:
| Unfortunately, we no longer have consistent steering and
| docking sides. So first you're going to have to rebuild a lot
| of ships.
| taeric wrote:
| This explanation feels kind of awkward. My left hand does not
| depend on my orientation, so I am unclear why the "left side" of
| a boat would.
|
| I get why there are better terms to use when talking about
| others. At least, I think I do. But it feels like there is more
| history to these terms than just "needs to be fixed."
| FoomFries wrote:
| Because if you face the back of the boat the sides reverse.
| It's similar to stage left. When you can't afford to be
| confused, one name is better than a conflicting argument
| between your left and the boats left.
| taeric wrote:
| But if I'm looking at you and speak of your left hand, I am
| not speaking of the hand to my left. Literally nobody does
| that. At least not on purpose.
| lesuorac wrote:
| Do you own a car? Commonly when speaking with a mechanic
| they'll ask questions like Driver's side or Passenger's
| side to get away from left/right.
|
| People very often describe things with just _left_ or just
| _right_. They don't say things like when I'm sitting in the
| car the door to my left is hard to open. They just say the
| left door is broken even when both them and the mechanic
| are facing the car head on.
|
| By having people use an unambiguous vocabulary it makes up
| for people not thinking about how their statements will be
| interpreted. If the deckhands were genius's they're be
| charting the course not heaving rope.
| tomrod wrote:
| Ambiguity can be cultural. In some dialects in the
| Philippines, the only required preposition is "sa".
| Others exist, but aren't required for speaking.
|
| It's intriguing to say the least.
| taeric wrote:
| You aren't wrong. In that mistakes can be made. But if I
| ask you about your left hand, is that ambiguous? By your
| definition here, that is an ambiguous question. But, that
| just feels wrong.
|
| Edit: I'll note that it is amusing to compare to cars. It
| seems the etymology of the terms is literally "driver
| side".
| DonHopkins wrote:
| What if you're addressing someone on a boat who's facing
| sideways? Or a group of people facing different directions?
| Or you can't see them and don't know which direction
| they're facing, and they don't know which direction you're
| facing?
| Uehreka wrote:
| The problem is that people (especially in stressful
| situations when they're not thinking carefully) will say
| things like "that one on the left!" and the person they're
| talking to (who is often facing them and thus reversed)
| won't think to ask "my left or yours?"
|
| But if you train people to use specifically-invented
| unambiguous terms that can't be screwed up, their brains
| will reach for those words when they're in trouble.
| binarymax wrote:
| Because left and right are ambiguous - are you talking about MY
| left or the boat's left? Having unambiguous names let's us
| differentiate and avoid confusion.
|
| It might be hard to grok the need for this if you've never been
| in a tight spot while sailing or operating a watercraft with a
| crew - but having this distinction has probably saved thousands
| of bad incidents from happening.
| Clamchop wrote:
| Yes but why would you ever be talking about your left? Use
| the definite article, THE left, and it should be clear by
| convention for the sailors.
|
| I think it's just historical.
| judge2020 wrote:
| Any room for error is a guarantee that a human will mess it
| up. Left already has a definition, so there's room for
| confusion; a word specifically talking about the ship is
| more concise.
| binarymax wrote:
| Imagine you are crew, standing on a ship. You are facing
| east, and the bow of the ship is facing north. It's night
| and there is a thick fog.
|
| You hear a cry "man overboard on the left!"
|
| Where is the overboard person? Are they to your left, the
| ships left, or the left of the person shouting?
|
| If the cry is instead "man overboard on the port side!"
| there is no question.
| wpietri wrote:
| Great points. And I'd add that thanks to wind and water,
| ships can also move in directions besides the obvious
| one. So it's possible in this case the boat could be
| moving west, giving another direction that left could be
| relative to.
| xg15 wrote:
| Whether "the left" means your left, the ship's left or yet
| another left (the harbour's?) is highly ambiguous. You
| can't assume that everyone will instantly understand this
| correctly.
|
| I think starboard and port make more sense here because
| they _only_ describe parts of the ship, so the meaning of
| the terms is completely unambiguous.
| happytoexplain wrote:
| "Left" vs "the left" is not good enough. That could still
| mean either concept semantically, and you can't be sure the
| person speaking to you didn't mess up the convention when
| the two are that close.
|
| A crew (any kind of crew) requires _exceedingly clear_
| communication. "Ship left" and "ship right" could work,
| but what if the environment is noisy and you're not sure if
| the first word was "ship" or something else? Domain-
| specific, unique terms are fantastic tools for crews.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| Pass that to the left
| DonHopkins wrote:
| As opposed to "the other left".
| wpietri wrote:
| There are other uses for the definite article. E.g., "Down
| the hall and on the left." It's also used in relation to
| motion. "Go to the left of that ship." Even if you went
| with it, though, it still has the potential to be
| confusing.
|
| Speaking as somebody who sails occasionally, to me "left"
| and "port" are just very different concepts. It's sort of
| like driver's side and passenger's side of the car, but
| more intense. So I think the desire to use "left" mainly
| comes from people who don't spend much time on ships, an
| audience, not particularly important to sailors. Sort of
| like how non-programmers might struggle with some of our
| technical terms, but we'd never change.
| taeric wrote:
| I can see it as advantageous. With the major caveat that it
| is only advantageous to folks that have been taught it. Not
| shockingly, a large portion of the passengers on a boat are
| going to be confused if told to go to the starboard windows
| to see the whales that are beside the boat. How will you
| explain it? I'm going to guess that you will probably say
| "right." :D. (Note that this isn't hypothetical. I take a
| ferry fairly often, and surprisingly few of us know starboard
| from port.)
| xg15 wrote:
| Yes, in _that_ situation, you can confidently tell them to
| look to their right, because you can assume that most of
| them will sit in direction of travel and face forward.
| However, the same is not true for a sailor who might be
| running around on deck.
| taeric wrote:
| This isn't accurate, either. Most of us are decidedly not
| facing the direction of travel. Specifically, we are
| evenly split in large parts of the boat, as they have
| bench chairs that face each other. Or you are on the side
| of the boat facing out.
|
| The ferry is actually a very odd boat in this, btw. As I
| am not clear that starboard/port are fixed. The boat
| literally goes in both directions, such that I'm assuming
| I don't have to know which is the "front" of it
| irrespective of the direction it is currently traveling.
|
| I get your point, that things can be difficult. And I
| appreciate having jargon that is specific for an attempt
| to make things clearer. I just find this as the sole
| explanation kind of unsatisfactory. Seeing the history of
| the terms makes a lot more sense.
| dceddia wrote:
| Port and starboard are indeed fixed (same with bow and
| stern), so that no matter which way the boat is moving or
| the passengers are facing, those words always refer to
| the same physical sides of the boat :)
| taeric wrote:
| Per another thread, this may not be the case for ferries?
| At least not for ones that don't turn around. (Note that
| many "people ferry" boats are able to turn around. Larger
| car ferries are fully symmetric and have no fixed
| bow/stern.
|
| Edit: I found more discussion on this by searching for
| "double ended" boats. Port/starboard do indeed change
| depending on the direction of travel from all results
| I've found.
| dvt wrote:
| > The ferry is actually a very odd boat in this, btw. As
| I am not clear that starboard/port are fixed. The boat
| literally goes in both directions, such that I'm assuming
| I don't have to know which is the "front" of it
| irrespective of the direction it is currently traveling.
|
| From what I understand, on ferries (and similar "two-
| sided" working boats), port and starboard get switched
| around when the boat changes direction of travel, usually
| when docked (and its navigation lights also turn from
| green to red and vice-versa).
| bloppe wrote:
| Because "boat left" and "boat right" just didn't catch on.
| gerdesj wrote:
| True but you are not wandering around yourself! I agree though
| that the first para looks like just so nonsense. I know plenty
| of matelots (UK Navy) that use left and right, sharp end and
| blunt end for the cardinal points of a vessel. I do as well and
| use port, starb'd, bow and stern as they do too.
|
| Ironically enough, port and starboard markers which are the red
| and green buoys you see near to ports (yes!) need to be
| considered in reverse when going out. The green ones are called
| starboard markers and if you are in a big enough vessel, you
| should keep them off your starboard (right) side when
| approaching a port from the open seas. On the way out from port
| to the open seas you should keep the red ones on your right
| instead. If you don't you will hit the seabed and sink.
|
| Once you have got the hang of p/s buoys, you just need to get
| to grips with cardinal markers and a few other things and the
| way you drive on the sea will start to make sense. Even Brits
| drive on the right on the seas!
|
| There is a general rule that "power gives way to sail". That's
| fine for vessels of similar size. However I have seen 30'
| yachts on the Baltic try to persuade 100,000+ tonne tankers of
| this and not really getting the fact that inertia means that
| the big lump can't really turn in any meaningful way - they
| sort of orbit!
|
| Overtaking vessel keeps clear. On odd numbered years when Mars
| is in Saturn on a Friday you should dance with a Nun for three
| minutes at midnight every 70 days, unless it's Lent or you are
| a Nun in which case you should dance with an otter. There are a
| few more rules but that is largely it. Maritime isn't too
| complicated but do remember that the road has a habit of
| jumping 30' or more upwards or down simply for a laugh.
| TheSoftwareGuy wrote:
| Same reason we have North/South/East/West, basically
| drewrv wrote:
| I understand that the terms are mostly unambiguous, but I always
| wonder how these get defined in edge cases. For example ferries,
| at least where I live, alternate the direction of travel as they
| go back and forth. There isn't a fixed "bow" or "stern" from
| which to define port and starboard.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| This is a great question imo but I struggled to find anything
| very good. I found a forum post,
| https://www.sailnet.com/threads/double-ended-ferries-which-e...
| and between the trolling it seems that fore/aft and
| port/starboard switch when the direction reverses, including eg
| navigation lights (red for port, green for starboard). And they
| tend to also have a one end and a two end or an A/B end, and
| those labels don't change.
| nitwit005 wrote:
| I've seen the 1 and 2 labels on barges near me.
|
| I suspect they just don't use this terminology, unless it's
| to communicate with other vessels, and then it's presumably
| based on movement direction like you say.
| taeric wrote:
| Ha! I thought of this in one of the down thread discussions.
| Very curious on any official answer here, and I'll have to pay
| attention to the lights on the ferry, next time I'm on it.
| 1123581321 wrote:
| Those ferries should be switching the direction the crew faces
| (perhaps in a different structure on the other end of the boat)
| and turning on the appropriate lights so port and starboard are
| lit correctly. They should have two sets of colored lights to
| handle travel in both directions.
| xg15 wrote:
| Don't they have to swap the lights anyway if the ferry
| reverses direction? After all, the red/green indicators are
| primarily for showing which direction the ship is moving in.
| phire wrote:
| For bidirectional ferries, I assume they just pick a direction
| all the way back at design time and stick to it.
|
| The direction might not matter, but consistency does.
| Xylakant wrote:
| I'm fairly confident that the "bow" in that case is always
| the direction of travel in this case and that starboard/port
| side change.
|
| The lighting scheme on ships indicates the starboard side
| with a green light and the port side with a red light. This
| allows ships to figure out which way another ship is heading
| - especially at night. If you can see the red light on the
| left and green on the right while facing the other ship it's
| going away from you, if it's reversed then it's coming
| towards you. If you can only see green it's going to your
| right, to your left if you can see red.
|
| Retaining that property is important for navigation, so
| starboard and port have to swap sides.
| jprete wrote:
| They can't do it that way because the question of right of
| way only matters when two boats are going towards each other.
| The coloration is an easy visual indicator of where a boat is
| generally going that doesn't require seeing any other part of
| the boat to work, and will even work in fog. You cannot
| safely flip the directions for any fraction of the boat's
| travel.
| geephroh wrote:
| The Washington State ferry system uses double-ended vessels
| with a pilot house on each end with the crew swapping between
| them at each crossing. Whichever end the crew are at becomes
| the bow.[1]
|
| Funny -- I've ridden the ferries a lot and never really thought
| about it.
|
| 1. https://www.sailnet.com/threads/double-ended-ferries-
| which-e...
| zwieback wrote:
| "Driver" and "passenger" side for cars. Oh wait, doesn't work in
| England etc.
|
| I guess for ships there is no variation between countries?
| Starboard is presumably where the wheel was so everyone must have
| left it on the right side?
| Broken_Hippo wrote:
| I've always assumed that "driver" and "passenger" were simply
| reversed for England, etc.
|
| I'd reverse it for postal trucks, after all, or cars imported
| from England and such.
| Someone wrote:
| > Starboard is presumably where the wheel was
|
| Not the wheel, but (as this article also says) the steering
| oar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steering_oar:
|
| _"The steering oar or steering board is an over-sized oar or
| board, to control the direction of a ship or other watercraft
| prior to the invention of the rudder."_
| gamblor956 wrote:
| It still works just as well in England...
|
| Things that are driver-side in the U.S. are also driver-side in
| England, because the layout is designed around the position of
| the driver.
|
| "Starboard" comes from Old English "steor bord", which meant
| "steering side of the boat" back in the days when a steering
| oar was used to steer the boat. Most sailors were right-handed
| so this was almost always the right side. It was easier to dock
| with the other side of the boat facing the port, so the left
| side became "larboard" and then simply "port." English is the
| international nautical language owing to its centuries of
| dominance of the oceans, followed by the U.S. dominance of
| global politics, so the English terms became the standard
| nautical terms. (Note: technically the international nautical
| language is "Seaspeak," which is a special dialect of English
| created specifically for nautical use.)
| jiayo wrote:
| Having grown up in a large transit-oriented city, I learned to
| drive as a grownup. I really struggled with the concept of
| reversing. "Turn the wheel left!" "You just turn the wheel the
| way you want the _back_ of the car to go." "No, the other
| left!"
|
| At this point I was still limited to driving in empty 1000
| space parking lots and was getting frustrated. One day I
| realized, I could ask my driving companion-turned-instructor
| "hey when you say left and right, can you just say passenger-
| side or driver-side?" After a few iterations at this, it all
| clicked. My new-driver brain could do absolute positioning
| consistently with minimal effort, instead of having to
| calculate relative positioning each time and getting frazzled.
| bink wrote:
| Related: Why is it called a "poop deck"?
|
| https://emmacruises.com/poop-decks-what-are-they-and-why-are...
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