[HN Gopher] Microsoft plugging more ads into Windows 11 Start Menu
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Microsoft plugging more ads into Windows 11 Start Menu
Author : LinuxBender
Score : 257 points
Date : 2023-04-18 14:03 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theregister.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theregister.com)
| bastardoperator wrote:
| Plenty of us at MSFT won't even use a windows desktop because of
| decisions like this. I don't know who's in charge here, but way
| to go on killing the goodwill of everyone elses work with stupid
| features everyone actually hates.
| Firmwarrior wrote:
| I dunno what it's like nowadays, but when I was at MSFT during
| the win8/early win10 times, the internal mailing lists where
| 10x as angry and vicious as what you saw in public. Microsoft
| employees loved Windows and were fucking pissed that it was
| getting ruined.
|
| I guess they've all been beaten into submission and/or managed
| out by now..
| forrestthewoods wrote:
| Lots of Windows hate on HN this week. It's largely well deserved.
|
| Unpopular Opinion: I still prefer Windows to both macOS and Linux
| by an extremely wide margin. For both normal use and development.
|
| I'm extremely annoyed at all of the ad crap. And I probably
| wouldn't recommend anything other than an iPad to my mother. But
| for devs Win11 is honestly somewhere in-between "just fine" and "
| pretty good".
| rolph wrote:
| https://www.marketingweek.com/mark-ritson-people-hate-ads/ [2019]
| jerry1979 wrote:
| Do people see Windows as a secure operating system for the
| purposes of corporate work? Is there a way companies can turn
| this stuff off so employees don't engage with the content and
| accidentally give away sensitive information?
| zamadatix wrote:
| Of course. The Enterprise and Server versions of Windows are
| like a different world of user experience and OS control from
| e.g. Home.
| jmclnx wrote:
| I have not used Windows at home at all. I always liked Text based
| interfaces and at home went from DOS/DESQview to UN*X. But these
| days I have surrendered and use X most of the time.
|
| But I think M/S only cares about Corporate Accounts, which is
| where the big bucks is. If I remember correctly, Corporate
| Windows builds do not have any of this crazyness.
|
| So, I guess this is just to squeeze as much as the can from
| private people and to get private information they can sell.
|
| Due to this, I have recommended my relatives on old Windows
| machines to move to MACs. I would suggest Linux or a BSD, but I
| do not need the headache of training/supporting them :)
| ok_dad wrote:
| I recently bought a MacBook for myself, moving from Linux because
| it was a pain to manage with the amount of time I have to manage
| it (zero). My wife also got the same model, moving from Windows
| because of 11 being shitty.
|
| Where MS has changed the Windows UI look and flow a million times
| since I started using it with Windows 3.0 or so, I still
| recognize extremely similar or exactly the same UI on my MacBook
| as on a MacBook I owned in 2013, and on the Macs I used as a kid
| in like 1990! It's absolutely awesome that the UI is improved,
| but the same-ish.
| Night_Thastus wrote:
| To anyone who hasn't I highly encourage setting up PiHole. Great
| for reducing the severity of these sorts of things, and helps to
| sanitize and clean up your internet.
|
| Don't need to buy a Pi either, it can run on a laptop or desktop
| just fine.
|
| It's great for catching anything that can't be by an in-browser
| adblocker, like in the OS or on other devices.
| esperent wrote:
| How does a pihole compare to NextDNS? I know you can set custom
| lists in a pihole, are there any other differences?
|
| NextDNS is very easy to set up. Pihole always feels like it'll
| be yet another thing to manage.
| Night_Thastus wrote:
| I have no experience with NextDNS, but with PiHole I can say
| it has been very "set and forget". Logged into the router,
| set the DNS server IP. Then into Windows to disable IPv6. Now
| it just runs in the background quietly for years. It can be
| set up to do updates automatically as well if desired.
|
| I have occasionally disabled it, thinking it may have been
| the cause of some internet trouble, but so far that's never
| been true.
| brewdad wrote:
| > I have occasionally disabled it, thinking it may have
| been the cause of some internet trouble, but so far that's
| never been true.
|
| I hear people say this about PiHole all the time but I have
| a hard time believing it. I run into a couple sites a week
| that don't work right with Firefox standard privacy
| settings and UBlock Origin. I certainly don't want to add
| another troubleshooting step when web sites break.
| Marsymars wrote:
| If you don't want to host your own DNS, there are also managed
| options.
|
| I pay for and use both Eero Secure (intercepts DNS requests
| sent to non-NextDNS servers) and NextDNS (set on my clients so
| it's also effective when away from home).
| snapcaster wrote:
| I haven't used windows in a really long time but are there really
| ads in the START MENU? jesus christ
| f6v wrote:
| I only use it for games, so not paying too much attention.
| There're definitely some local content being loaded by
| default(like news) which by itself is horrible.
| pjs_ wrote:
| I like the ads. They spice up my day and give me something fun
| and interesting to look at when I'm bored at work. Plus I find it
| positive to see adverts for useful and enjoyable products and
| services. Thanks Microsoft for putting these ads in my Start Menu
| where they are handy and easy to find.
|
| Maybe they could also put some adverts for products and services
| that are relevant to my interests into other parts of the
| operating system. I would personally enjoy the opportunity to see
| exciting new products in Explorer search results, or while making
| changes in the Registry Editor, for example. Just my 2c!
| umvi wrote:
| Same, hopefully they can even figure out how to inject video
| adverts into Windows Media Player, i.e. when you double click
| one of your mp4s to play. That way it's almost like having an
| offline YouTube experience right there in your native OS
| booleandilemma wrote:
| Good idea. I would love text ads every time I open PowerShell.
| Sort of like fortune on Linux, but obviously more practical.
| [deleted]
| spicyusername wrote:
| The only reason I use Windows in 2023 is for video gaming. Every
| other non-gaming PC I own is running Linux.
|
| Windows has become inferior to Linux in every other way. More
| upgrade headaches, worse resource utilization, worse desktop
| environment, more crashes, data collection, and now embedded ads.
|
| These technology companies have really demonstrated over the past
| few decades that they are unable to maintain reliable products
| over the long term. Every piece of good software (and even
| hardware in many cases) degrades almost immediately into an
| inferior product due to laziness and greed.
|
| These companies would rather destroy their flagship products
| chasing the smallest prospect of extra revenue, than leave what
| works alone and innovate on something new.
| oh_nice_marmot wrote:
| Beginning with the XP I became a heavy Windows user until
| version 7. Those releases were the heyday for Windows IMO. But
| since 8 and, worse of all, 11 I ditched it altogether and none
| of the computing devices in the house run Windows.
|
| This is all to say that my main gaming rig runs Ubuntu 22.04
| LTS with Gnome, heavily tweaked, to look and behave like MacOS
| and.... Its a dream.
|
| Heck, in fact I like it so much that I prefer it to MacOS in
| every possible way. The only issue is, still, the lack of Adobe
| support.
|
| And that is why I still have an Apple machine.
|
| Give it a try. You will be surprised by how well so many games
| run.
| dabluecaboose wrote:
| I've been looking more and more at this since I got a Steam
| Deck and found surprisingly good compatibility on almost
| every game. If Steam OS was made available for your run-of-
| the-mill gaming rig I'd install it in a heartbeat and give it
| an earnest test run.
|
| That said, there is still a latent unease from my last
| misadventure with a Linux gaming PC from 2017, which ended in
| a LOT of restarting into Windows whenever the guys wanted to
| play a game I couldn't get working
| sleepybrett wrote:
| I haven't tried it yet but:
| https://store.steampowered.com/steamos/buildyourown
|
| My only speedbump at this point is non-steam games,
| specifically in my case overwatch2 and diablo4. Can I run
| the battlenet launcher and it's games on steam os .. can i
| do it and not be banned by their 'anti cheat' spyware?
| dabluecaboose wrote:
| I saw that page right after I made the comment and
| googled it, but it seemed a little light on details and I
| was suspicious that it was the old Steam Machines distro
| as opposed to the frankly quite pleasant distro on the
| Steam Deck.
|
| EDIT: Yep [1], it looks like that page is for the old
| SteamOS
|
| [1] https://repo.steampowered.com/steamos/README.txt
| krackpot wrote:
| What kind of graphics card are you using and have you run
| into many issues for multi display and/or high refresh rates
| (assuming you're running this)?
|
| I'm so close to dumping windows and my final concern is gpu
| and multi monitor support. I only ever run linux on servers
| or VMs, so no real experience on bare metal.
| duffyjp wrote:
| Not the person you asked, but I run Kubuntu with an RTX
| 4080 and a 4K 144hz display and every single thing works
| out of the box. Not every game I want to play works with
| Proton, but close. Gaming performance vs Windows has been
| indistinguishable, and it boots up much faster. My Windows
| drive sits at a half-loaded desktop with no icons for like
| a minute... No idea why.
|
| Dual monitors will work well if they're similar, but I
| wouldn't mix hi-dpi with low-dpi or different refresh
| rates. I've heard most of that doesn't work or is poorly
| supported.
| oh_nice_marmot wrote:
| I am on an ancient 1080 ti but that still gets the job done
| on the games I want to play (Total War series, RDR2 and
| some indie games).
|
| About high refresh rate games: I have gamed on 144hz/120hz
| (one gaming monitor and another OLED TV) but I prefer to
| lower it so I can increase quality of graphics.
|
| Multi monitor I can't say I have much experience with them
| connected at the same time but I have used the OLED+Gaming
| monitor few times but I can't say I do it often.
|
| What I do very often is to leave the machine running and
| use RDP/Steam client to connect to it and game/work.
|
| Linux support, and Ubuntu and Gnome for that matter,
| improved leaps and bounds since last LTS.
| npteljes wrote:
| Games are my only reason too. Fortunately LTSC saves me most of
| the madness.
| surgical_fire wrote:
| > The only reason I use Windows in 2023 is for video gaming.
| Every other non-gaming PC I own is running Linux.
|
| It was the same for me until a month ago. Thanks to the recent
| developments of WINE and Proton, gaming on Linux has been
| reliable enough that I could switch entirely to Linux and not
| look back. Couldn't be happier about it.
|
| Unless you only like to play the most recent AAA releases, I
| suggest you give it a try.
| Karsteski wrote:
| I have an HDR monitor and Windows 11 autoHDR is genuinely
| great. I've been considering moving my gaming PC to Linux but
| I really don't want my monitor features to go to waste. Maybe
| I'll just sit in WSL2 unless absolutely necessary but I'm
| sure there's a bunch of random headaches that would come with
| that
| Night_Thastus wrote:
| If it weren't for games, I'd swap over too.
|
| But having to swap between either physical computers or dual-
| boot is just asking too much for me. I like my convenience.
| Having one OS that does whatever I want is good. Linux is
| getting closer with stuff like WINE, but I play too much
| obscure, old, heavily modded, or just games that have issues as
| it is - and don't want to add the OS into the mix. I like not
| having to worry about my OS being the problem. Just the other
| day I found out Old School Runescape's new launcher won't have
| Linux support, and I play that daily. :/
|
| Some of the defaults in Windows suck, and I've had to disable
| some tracking and other crap I didn't like, but other than that
| it's been seamless for as long as I've had computers. That's
| good enough for me, even if it's a hodgepodge mess in terms of
| design.
| mihaaly wrote:
| I recently had the choise building home server with Windows or
| Linux, and due to diminishing and frustrating experience, not
| least with the unavoidbale spinning fans on my windows
| computers (I call them vacuum when I talk about them to my
| wife), due to the misfortune I have to work with Windows I
| started to dig myself into Linux matters instead and now have a
| satisfactory quiet and cheap home server setting at home.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| I haven't done the research but I think if I could get
| overwatch2 (and diablo4 if they don't fuck it up) running on my
| steamdeck I'm not sure keeping a windows box around makes much
| sense to me anymore because... yeah, it's pretty much an
| expensive xbox at this point.
| drbawb wrote:
| >"Thinking realistically, every software I use with the notable
| exception of Windows and DaVinci Resolve switched to a
| subscription model. If Microsoft doesn't do that and pushes its
| OneDrive and 365 subs via the task bar every now and then I'm
| personally okay with that. Better than paying $$$ every month
| just to use the OS."
|
| OneDrive and Office _is_ the subscription for Windows. Having
| worked in a repair shop I can tell you that the layperson thinks
| the OS is synonymous with "their data" and "their applications."
| If you said to them verbatim that you're "reinstalling their OS",
| and you give them back a computer with all their "Recently Used"
| menus empty, missing programs, all default settings, browser
| favorites are gone, their Outlook PST is missing, and the Office
| Key you ripped off the machine was an OEM license that won't
| activate through normal channels: that individual is going to be
| _very_ cross with you.
|
| Turns out it's really hard to sell retail customers "nothing for
| something", and to the average person an empty Windows install is
| useless. Gate their productivity suite (input) and storage
| (output) behind a subscription, though, and suddenly you have a
| customer hooked for life.
|
| I've also seen this playout with Apple Users: their iCloud
| subscription lapses, or their storage on the free tier runs out,
| and it stops syncing photos and videos. Eventually the phone
| takes a dive in the ocean, or a toilet, or just dies of old age.
| The user goes to the Apple store and is _emotionally devastated_
| when they sign in to iCloud on their new phone only to find it is
| missing the last year of their life. Users aren 't going to swear
| off Apple products, the backup and usability story on Android is
| a nightmare by comparison, they're just going to let the Genius
| Bar upsell them into the $2.99 protection racket.
|
| ---
|
| It's also worth noting that Windows Enterprise is already a
| subscription. To use Enterprise (GA servicing channel) you need
| to have an Windows E3/E5 license, or active Software Assurance.
| The problem is these subscriptions only work because Microsoft
| has the power to audit VL customers, and those customers tend to
| have the pockets to pay up remediation or legal fees. _The only
| reason Windows Home/Pro are not subscriptions is because
| Microsoft never figured out the economics of auditing retail
| consumers._
|
| If consumers are leasing their storage and programs from you,
| though, it turns out you don't need to audit them.
| windowsrookie wrote:
| I moved my whole family to Mac OS years ago. I primarily run Mac
| OS, But I keep a couple windows machines around just to stay
| familiar with the OS. I think I will switch my gaming desktop
| over to Linux at this point.
|
| I actually enjoy Microsofts other products like VS Code, Xbox,
| Etc. But Windows has never been my favorite OS, and now I
| actually dislike using it.
| elforce002 wrote:
| I recently switched to Mac OS and I won't go back to Microsoft.
| b800h wrote:
| I keep on thinking about getting a gaming laptop running Windows
| in order to occasionally run some Win-only games and programs.
| This is probably the strongest factor preventing me from doing
| so.
| dwighttk wrote:
| "More"?
| jzb wrote:
| Every time Microsoft does something (e.g. WSL2) that makes me
| think "maybe using Windows wouldn't be so bad" they counter with
| something that really puts me off (e.g. Ads in Windows,
| constantly trying to shove their browser down my throat, etc.).
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| Please please MS just put someone in charge with taste who can
| veto this trashy rubbish.
|
| Whatever gains you're perceiving from this on your profit chart
| isn't worth the compounding deterioration of your products
| experience.
| jiggawatts wrote:
| You'd have to have the power to upset people, take their
| personal income (bonuses) away, or even fire them outright.
|
| People like this don't get promoted in large established
| organisations. They have to be there from the beginning. All of
| the "asshole CEOs" are in this category. Think of Jobs, Gates,
| Elon, or Bezos. They all built massive corporate empires by not
| accepting garbage from their underlings, but this kind of
| brutal criticism is _not nice_. Eventually they get replaced by
| nice managers like Tim Cook, Sundar Pichai, etc... and quality
| starts heading downhill.
|
| It's a corporate cycle that's been going on for centuries.
| dahwolf wrote:
| The depressing part is that their design department (or
| possibly an agency they hire) make these really fancy UI vision
| videos. But then you use actual Windows and its UI trash.
| jimbob45 wrote:
| On the other hand, Windows is on a _lot_ of computers these
| days. They may be making absurd amounts of money off of this
| arrangement.
| mihaaly wrote:
| It is on at least one less computer than it could be.
|
| I decided not to have Windows at home (I'd choose Pro version
| as preference for several reasons). It is enough suffering
| with it working hours, I feel relieved almost every day when
| I can turn it off finally.
|
| They make no money here. Not from license, nor from advert or
| other whatever they try to push down the throat.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| No, they aren't. The windows division has consistently shrank
| to the point it isn't even a top line revenue source for the
| company anymore and is rolled up into the experience and
| devices group with office, Xbox, etc. Windows is less than
| 12% of MS quarterly revenue and continuing to shrink:
| https://www.kamilfranek.com/microsoft-revenue-breakdown/
|
| The company could totally lose all windows revenue tomorrow
| and barely notice it. In a few years it will probably be into
| the single digits of percent revenue and near total
| irrelevance. Windows is dead as any meaningful business for
| the company.
| chongli wrote:
| Windows is the foundation of their Enterprise Services,
| Server Products & Cloud Services, and Office Products &
| Services, which together (including Windows) comprise 73%
| of their revenue. If Windows disappeared off the face of
| the Earth, all of that other revenue would go with it.
| overthrow wrote:
| https://react-etc.net/entry/microsoft-office-rewrite-to-
| reac...
|
| > Microsoft Office rewrite in React.js nears completion
|
| Seems like even Microsoft is hedging their bets when it
| comes to Windows.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| It still makes additional money rented on the cloud, does
| it not? Not sure how that is counted.
| asddubs wrote:
| putting aside that 12% is still a fair bit, I wonder how
| much value it brings them in more intangible ways, that
| would only become obvious if they "lost" windows.
| zamalek wrote:
| Developer mindshare. There are a huge amount of
| developers who want Windows (or really Visual Studio
| proper), and there is a meticulously tarred highway from
| Windows to Azure.
|
| The irony is that this bullshit will drive developers
| away, because they are some of the least likely to put up
| with it.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| LOL since 2010 I've watched windows laptops disappear and
| mac laptops appear in pretty much every department i
| visit EXCEPT finance. There is exactly one engineer on my
| team that still uses windows but he admits that it's just
| inertia. Every piece of software he uses regularly either
| exists on linux/mac or can be replaces quite easily on
| linux/mac with no loss in productivity. Hell he spends
| most of his time in windows ACTUALLY in the linux
| subsystem.
|
| I still have a single windows box and it's more or less a
| game console at this point and since getting a steamdeck
| I'm not sure it makes a ton of sense to keep it.
| Steamdeck+ps5 probably gives me all the gaming I want
| with less hassle.
| [deleted]
| robocat wrote:
| > There are a huge amount of developers who want Windows
|
| I watched _rabid_ Windows fans that had been developing
| for many years slowly become disappointed apologists
| during the decade of 2010. They still use Windows and
| trust .NET and SQL Server, but they have had their joy
| slowly beaten out of them by Microsoft's change of focus.
|
| Balmer yelling "Developers developers developers" on
| stage in 2000 was a sign of how important developers used
| to be to the company.
|
| I think Microsoft should get back to their roots and
| create a Windows Developer Edition for individuals &
| small businesses: remove all the consumer shit, fix the
| tasteless look, pre-install developer tools, charge $100
| per year for it (with discounts to onboard anyone
| developing targeting Windows OS). Nice if they could come
| up with a GUI to compete with Electron (or at least an
| HTML slimmed down with inefficient features removed?).
| They need another VB6 too! (Disclaimer: I've not really
| used VB6). Pushing your developers into the arms of Apple
| Mac's seems like a poor long-term strategy.
| rewgs wrote:
| I know this will never happen, but I wish that they would
| go even a step further than that:
|
| I wish they would admit that, for better or worse, Linux
| is the desktop to corral around. A proprietary OS for BYO
| hardware is very simply a Bad Idea, both in terms of
| developers (because you're at the mercy of the OS
| developer's documentation _only)_ and in terms of users
| (because software will always theoretically be more
| stable on an OS that a developer can crack open).
|
| So, rather than creating a Windows Developer Edition and
| charging for it, I would love to see them sunset Windows
| into a legacy/Enterprise-only OS that they charge a hefty
| fee for. And then I'd love to see them build a Linux
| distro that deeply interops with their services (i.e.
| their real money-makers) that they release for free.
|
| This new "Windows" would be the new OS that comes pre-
| installed on laptops by HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc. It could
| look essentially the same -- perhaps their desktop
| environment could be called Glass (get it?) -- and it
| could still run win32 apps via Wine (which they would be
| a massive contributor to in this fantasy world of mine).
| A headless version could of course be available for
| servers running Azure. Etc etc etc.
|
| They could charge for support (i.e. the FOSS playbook
| that's been pushed the 70s). They could of course
| continue to create proprietary apps and modules that they
| charge for, I don't care -- for example, a
| CoreAudio/CoreMIDI competitor that only audio
| professionals would really need. I'm not naive enough to
| think that proprietary/non-free software will ever go
| away, but the OS is simply not the place for that.
| Platforms of all kinds benefit from being FOSS.
|
| I know that there's a great kernel down there, but
| Windows is just a mess. Just kill the damn thing. Let it
| die. I ran Windows 11 since it was released and recently
| switched back to 10 because 11 is just so unbearably bad,
| and I still only use Windows _at all_ as little as
| possible, only when I have to for certain work.
|
| None of this will ever happen of course, but a man can
| dream.
| dzader wrote:
| You just linked to a graph showing how much they are making
| off of their services that these ads are pushing. They are
| definitely making a lot of money off of this.
| gary_0 wrote:
| Bingo. Windows looks like a trashy billboard for
| Microsoft's other services because that's exactly what it
| is, because that's where the fresh money is.
| causi wrote:
| You should've learned having taste is an instant disqualifier
| for employment at Microsoft after Windows 8.
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| Ah i can see you never used windows 3.1.
| JohnFen wrote:
| Win 3.1 wasn't much uglier than Win 8, but it was a million
| times more usable.
| Loughla wrote:
| Honestly, with new resolutions, 3.1 may be exactly the look
| I want. Everything was grouped logically, and you had
| control over your OS.
| StrangeATractor wrote:
| Nobody with taste would have allowed the Zune.
| Minor49er wrote:
| The Zune HD was a fantastic device. I still use mine from
| time to time
| causi wrote:
| The Zune HD UX is godawful. Not only do you have to both
| press a button and interact with the touchscreen to
| play/pause, skip, or adjust volume, but the relevant
| button is on the opposite end of the device from the
| headphone jack. That means it's sitting upside down in
| your pocket and you have to reach into your pocket and
| past the bulk of the device just to adjust the volume.
|
| The original Zune UX was a work of art by comparison. The
| buttons were on the face and recessed, so not only did
| they not get pressed accidentally, you could control your
| media right through the outside of your pants without
| even reaching into your pocket.
| causi wrote:
| Hey now, the Zune Windows XP theme was pretty snazzy.
| blcArmadillo wrote:
| The browser on the Zune wasn't good but I otherwise liked.
| What didn't you like about it?
| BrotherBisquick wrote:
| This is the first time I've heard all opinion about the
| Zune other than "it was actually pretty good! It was a
| hidden gem!"
| booleandilemma wrote:
| I had a Zune back in the day and I loved it. It had FM
| radio! And I was able to write software for it!
| mattferderer wrote:
| Windows 8 & Windows phone had a lot of good things going for
| it that would eventually get no resources & thrown out. They
| also had many design ideas borrowed by iOS & Android.
| dmonitor wrote:
| I'm glad Windows ate shit trying to get into mobile. Maybe
| it was functional, but Windows is fucking ugly compared to
| iOS, MacOS, and even Android.
| causi wrote:
| _They also had many design ideas borrowed by iOS &
| Android._
|
| Yeah, because it was a gods-be-damned mobile experience in
| a desktop operating system.
| Dah00n wrote:
| Surely you must mean after Windows 7? Windows 8 was the
| beginning of the pile of poo that is Windows on the PC-
| playing-a-tablet and Microsoft just dig deeper and deeper
| with every new version down the awful tablet design they have
| going on.
| ThatMedicIsASpy wrote:
| I actually liked parts of it (W8) on my tablets. I chose
| windows tablets exactly because I know I get updates for
| years (except now with the TPM requirement for W11). I
| still use a Yoga 2 8" tablet (9yrs old) every day in bed.
|
| Even though I run Linux on everything else I haven't tried
| and or messed with it on a tablet. I do not consider my
| Steam Deck as a tablet - I do use it a lot as one but 99%
| of the time I enjoy the controller input over touch.
|
| I just can't find a replacement for my Yoga 2 8". The front
| facing speakers are amazing and every new version of this
| tablet runs android which is an auto skip for me.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| I think they have excellent taste but money has the highest
| priority.
| skilled wrote:
| First it was Apple who fucked up the butterfly keyboard and out
| of spite I just said "no thanks" and bought a HP laptop with a
| beefy GPU instead. Never looked back, until now.
|
| I'm using Windows on the said laptop and just in the last couple
| of months they have started adding more and more "interactive"
| horseshit that is simply meant to peddle their Edge browser and
| Bing search engine.
|
| I mean, did you know that Microsoft Teams can hijack your Dev
| Console and interpret a HEX color code as a phone number? It
| literally hijacks the console and interrupts you from doing any
| kind of debugging.
|
| My next purchase is 100% going to be Apple again since I've heard
| great things about the new chips and keyboard issues seem to be
| solved also. Microsoft is just doing dumb stuff right now, like
| really dumb and anti-user. Needless say, they have no shame to do
| this towards their paying customers, too.
| msm_ wrote:
| Why not Linux?
| sbayeta wrote:
| I just bought a nice Asus Zenbook and first I did as soon as I
| received it was installing pop os. I keep my old windows
| notebook near by in case I need something I can't do in the
| Linux machine, but its use is more and more infrequent.
| bottlepalm wrote:
| It's funny for what is essentially a 'file manager' Microsoft
| makes it hell to manage your files. My friends and family and
| constantly confused by the 10 different interfaces there are for
| file management. Desktops are a mess of of half trash files. The
| cloud integration the file explorer is a confusing mess. The UI
| for saving a file from Office is the absolute worst. I've had to
| help someone just save a file and it was difficult even for me to
| figure out the UI -- borderline comical how bad it is.
| dahwolf wrote:
| Same for "My Documents". If they are mine, then why are 7
| trillion programs and processes dumping their random garbage in
| it?
|
| Or how about Modern office programs, where saving something to
| disk instead of the cloud is now many clicks away.
| jiggawatts wrote:
| Because the KPIs for the OneDrive product managers is based
| on usage.
|
| They have to break your workflow for their bonus.
| mihaaly wrote:
| Agreed. That OneDrive thingy my company foolishly employs is
| making the file ""manager"" only bigger, not better.
|
| One of my favourite is how it overrules me in renaming a file.
| Half way into renaming it decides I will not rename it and just
| clears my editing, or exits editing mode. Refreshes or
| something, ruining what I do along the way. Renaming files is a
| hit or miss thing, unpridictable. Something pretty essential
| thing solved pretty well more than half a century ago, managed
| to be ruined by MS.
| Loughla wrote:
| My number 1 complaint after switching from linux mint back to
| windows after years in linux-land after building a gaming rig -
|
| The auto sort by date and group by most recent in their file
| explorer that you have to either use a third party app to turn
| back into sort by name and group by none, or - do that
| selection for literally every folder on its own.
|
| That's a fucking train wreck. Who decided that sorting by date
| instead of name was a good idea? WHY?
| vel0city wrote:
| > Who decided that sorting by date instead of name was a good
| idea?
|
| It depends on the context. Sometimes when I'm looking at
| photos, I really do prefer sorting by date. Similarly, when
| I'm looking at the Downloads folder, I'm probably _most_
| interested in the thing I _just_ downloaded, so having that
| near the top makes a lot of sense and would gladly prefer
| that than having it sorted alphabetically.
|
| However, if I'm just looking at a directory of documents,
| alphabetical wins for sure. If I'm looking at a music
| collection, I'd probably want to sort by artist name
| alphabetically, but not necessarily filename.
| thewebcount wrote:
| I can kind of understand making it the default sort, but not
| getting rid of the others. Most users don't know they can
| sort the list of things in a folder. They just want to see
| the thing they just created, or the thing they were last
| working on. So sort by either creation date, modification
| date, or date added is what will be most helpful to most of
| them and result in the least open tickets for Microsoft. But
| to remove the other options, that's just bad.
| Dah00n wrote:
| I have used Windows since, well since Windows became a thing,
| and I have never had problems with finding
| Copy/Cut/Properties/Etc. but every single time in Windows
| 11.....
|
| It amazes me that Windows gets worse with every update. I'd
| rater use an updated Windows Vista than Win11, yuck!
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| So depressing because Explorer from the 2k/XP era was best in
| class and about as complete and discoverable as a shell ever
| got.
| sodapopcan wrote:
| XP was the best OS and I miss it. You had to switch it to use
| the classic 95/97/2000 skin, of course :) I haven't used
| Windows since.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| The shell yes. Lack of a decent terminal would sink it--
| besides the other reasons it is not suitable any longer...
| software support and security concerns.
|
| Reply edit: Guess you could putty into Linux, but not worth
| the hassle at that point.
| sodapopcan wrote:
| Oh right. I was writing spaghetti PHP in those days so
| never had use for a terminal, so I guess that is required
| context.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| What made you dislike Windows 7?
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| That's when the Explorer and task bar started getting
| convoluted, hiding things, and becoming abstract instead
| of concrete. It's done in the spirit of helping newbies
| of course but it actively harms folks who do understand,
| as well as crippling the newbies who might learn, to
| always be dependent.
|
| Also, the transparent effects didn't help anything and
| look silly in hindsight. They also took out color
| customization and you couldn't have a dark theme for the
| next ten years!
|
| Of course the type ahead search in the Start menu was a
| big improvement, and elevation for security. But as
| always one step forward, two steps back with modern
| Windows.
| mey wrote:
| Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 were both very good operating
| systems. My memory is hazy, but I feel like Windows XP
| didn't really hit it's stride until SP 1 or 2, when USB
| really stabilized.
| sodapopcan wrote:
| Sorry, that was very misleading wording on my part. I
| started a job where they gave me a Linux machine that was
| lying around. When it was clear I was going to stay they
| said I could get whatever I wanted. I was going to get a
| Windows machine but since everyone else was on a Mac (and
| it was the time when the 27" iMac was brand new) I
| decided to follow suit and that's what I've been on ever
| since.
| andrewstuart wrote:
| It's sad that Microsoft does understand that the best windows is
| minimal, without bloat, trahware and ads.
| Rimintil wrote:
| > bloat
|
| What _is_ bloat to people? Is it because it has Candy Crush
| pre-installed? The Settings menu? The install is bigger than
| Windows 3.11 so it's bloated?
| torh wrote:
| A few weeks ago I got fed up with Windows 11. I remember I had to
| unplug my machine from the internet while installing Windows 10,
| and in a weak moment I must have accepted upgrading to Windows
| 11.
|
| It was probably bound to happen, because the question kept
| popping up all innocent looking: "Hey, want to install a security
| update... and while you're at it, Windows 11?"
|
| Well, back to me being fed up. I've installed Linux (Ubuntu,
| since it turns out DisplayLink drivers suck on anything else),
| and I'm quite happy with it. It works and it doesn't brother me
| too much. I don't see any reason to install Windows again.
| beembeem wrote:
| I am not upgrading from Windows 10. These newer releases are
| turning the OS into an ad-serving platform, which is unfortunate
| because the user is essentially paying for the OS. Microsoft is
| trying to have its cake and eat it too.
|
| If I'm paying for the product, I don't expect to be flooded with
| ads.
| duffyjp wrote:
| I've literally never touched a single PC running Windows 11.
| I've normally been an early adopter-- I even used Windows 8.0
| and 8.1 but I just have zero interest in Windows 11.
|
| I earn my living on a Mac, do my photography hobby on a Mac--
| Windows exists (for me) only for games, and Linux is closer to
| parity every day.
| beembeem wrote:
| It's unfortunate, because there are some improvements like
| WSA (Windows Subsystem for Android) [1] that I think are a
| big step in the right direction. The problem is the OS is
| becoming user-hostile in order to squeeze every last penny
| out of users. On a paid product (when there are an entire
| universe of free software), what is the point of paying for
| ads?
|
| [1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/android/wsa/
| ipcress_file wrote:
| One solution is to use Open-Shell instead of Microsoft's start
| menu:
|
| https://open-shell.github.io/Open-Shell-Menu/
|
| Stardock usually makes a replacement start menu too.
| izzydata wrote:
| I actually bought Start 11 because of how annoying the default
| Windows 11 start menu was. This marks the first time I've ever
| bought software. Good work Microsoft.
|
| I obtained copies of Windows through some University thing with
| Windows Vista and Windows 7 and then those keys have somehow
| just worked up until Windows 10 and then they gave me Windows
| 11 upgrade for free. In case you were wondering how I have not
| ever paid for Windows.
| blincoln wrote:
| How well-supported is it? Looks like the last release was
| almost a year ago.
|
| Replacing the Windows shell, especially in Windows 10/11, with
| their constant updates, isn't something I'd recommend for non-
| experts, but I don't even do it myself anymore because it seems
| like none of the replacements are ever consistently supported
| in the long term.
| wvenable wrote:
| Open Shell has been around for a long time -- it's basically
| _done_ so it doesn 't need many updates. That being said, it
| actually isn't designed to work with Windows 11 (as the
| entire Taskbar has been re-written) but it does it actually
| work with it. Requires some extra customization of the
| settings to get it to look right.
|
| I've used Classic/Open Shell since Windows 7.
| tored wrote:
| Microsoft, if I own a Pro license then why can't I get a pro
| experience?
| widowlark wrote:
| they believe us to be stupid
| dmitrygr wrote:
| If you need windows for some software, windows works well in a
| VM, shared folders for data, _NO_ internet connectivity, windows
| update and windows defender completely deleted (mount the disk in
| linux and kill the executables). All other uses of windows are
| insane.
| dang wrote:
| Related:
|
| _Microsoft is slowly rolling out ads in the Windows 11 start
| menu_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35545566 - April
| 2023 (201 comments)
|
| _Windows 11 KB5023778 update adds promotions to the Start menu_
| - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35346137 - March 2023 (251
| comments)
|
| _Microsoft is turning Windows 11 's Start Menu into an ad
| delivery system_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33694202
| - Nov 2022 (143 comments)
|
| _Microsoft tests 'upsells' of its products in Windows 11 sign-
| out menu_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33532448 - Nov
| 2022 (32 comments)
|
| _Microsoft is showing ads in the Windows 11 sign-out menu_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33513622 - Nov 2022 (15
| comments)
|
| _Microsoft mulling cheap PCs supported by ads, subscriptions_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33497625 - Nov 2022 (8
| comments)
|
| _OneDrive Ad in Windows 11 Logout Menu_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33497269 - Nov 2022 (26
| comments)
|
| _Microsoft accidentally reveals that it is testing ads in
| Windows Explorer_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30711277
| - March 2022 (168 comments)
|
| _Microsoft says Win11 Explorer ads were 'not intended to be
| published externally'_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30701289 - March 2022 (23
| comments)
|
| _Latest build of Windows 11 has ads inside File Explorer_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30689526 - March 2022 (12
| comments)
|
| _Microsoft is testing ads in the Windows 11 File Explorer_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30675908 - March 2022 (504
| comments)
| omoikane wrote:
| Also: Windows 11 KB5023778 update adds promotions to the Start
| menu - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35346137
| dang wrote:
| Good catch - added - thanks!
| robbywashere_ wrote:
| It's interesting to see adware go from being this undesirable
| loathed and parasitic thing being covertly installed on a users
| pc to Microsoft now shipping their own.
| websap wrote:
| It's outrageous that once a great OS builder, is now resorting to
| pushing it's subscription services through it's OS. Imagine MacOS
| and iOS showing in menu ads, I hope Apple never stoops to this
| level.
| belltaco wrote:
| Mac OS is already there and arguably worse. It shows a fake red
| notification to make you sign into iCloud and doesn't go away
| till you do.
|
| https://i.stack.imgur.com/OqNzj.png
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Iirc, you can click start using and then cancel it to clear
| the notification.
|
| Also, if you signed in at some point and later sign out, the
| notification doesn't appear. My work machine isn't connected
| to an iCloud account.
| dustyharddrive wrote:
| Apple's nearly there.
| Marsymars wrote:
| In my day-to-day usage, ads in the core user interface in iOS
| are worse than in Windows.
|
| Windows ads can be disabled pretty easily.
|
| iOS App Store ads cannot be disabled at all and are often for
| utter trash.
|
| The Microsoft Store is entirely optional, and app
| installs/updates can be entirely handled via winget/chocolatey
| (or installs in some other form). The iOS App Store cannot be
| avoided for installing apps or for manually updating apps, and
| its ads are more akin to forced ads in the Windows Update
| settings pane.
| alistairSH wrote:
| _...ads in the core user interface in iOS..._
|
| Where are you seeing ads in the main UI?
|
| I occasionally see a small ad near the top of "Settings",
| usually for an Apple service. I don't recall ads on the home
| page or lock screen, or in the main Apple apps I use (Camera,
| Photos, Files, Health, Fitness, Watch).
| sleepybrett wrote:
| The only time you get those notifications is generally when
| you install a new os version and they want to tell you
| about a new feature. That feature might be 'hey we launched
| apple news that you can pay for'. The only other time is
| when you are close to your apple cloud limit it will tell
| you that you can subscribe to more space.
| Marsymars wrote:
| See my reply to other child comment here:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35615479
| dustedcodes wrote:
| > ads in the core user interface in iOS
|
| I have _never_ seen any ads anywhere in iOS. I 'm utterly
| confused by this comment?
| Marsymars wrote:
| I consider the App Store in iOS part of the core user
| interface. (As mentioned in my top-level comment, apps
| can't be installed or manually updated without using the
| App Store.)
|
| See https://www.macrumors.com/2022/10/22/apple-announces-
| more-ap...
| quenix wrote:
| That seems a bit unreasonable
|
| 1. The App Store is not a "core UI element";
|
| 2. Even if it was, it's reasonable to see ads in a
| _store_. It's somewhere you go specifically in order to
| buy things and see companies' offerings. It's in the name
| -- a _store_. Like others have pointed out, no other
| portions of the OOB experience have ads.
| Marsymars wrote:
| Those points are both matters of opinion, with which I do
| not agree.
|
| (The first one doesn't particularly matter, because I'm
| forced to use the iOS App Store regardless of how you
| classify it, the second of which I forcefully disagree
| with - I am opposed to any ads that I cannot opt out of
| seeing. I don't go to the store to see ads, I go to
| download exactly the apps I want, and to update apps I
| already have installed - in both of those situations ads
| are unavoidable.)
|
| (And other portions of the OOB experience do have ads -
| as noted in my link, both the News and Stock apps,
| although I don't use either. And apparently soon the Maps
| app if it doesn't have ads already.)
| antiframe wrote:
| So in your opinion seeing an advertisement for an app on
| an app store is much worse than seeing an ad in your app
| launcher UI that you click on every time you go to launch
| an app?
| Marsymars wrote:
| Devoid of additional context, the latter would be worse,
| but in this context, I cannot avoid the former while
| using iOS, while I pretty easily avoid the latter while
| using Windows. (At least, to date. I don't run
| preview/insider builds of Windows.)
|
| Maybe there's some MDM that can be practically used to
| manage personal/household iOS app installs without the
| App Store? Happy to take suggestions there.
| orev wrote:
| You don't get to change the definition of words just
| because it fits your argument better. App Store is not
| the core user interface , it's a separate app. There's no
| reason to go into the iOS App Store unless you want to
| install something new. Updates are installed
| automatically so you never need to see those ads. Core
| user interface would be things like the Home Screen,
| Settings icon, etc. (and yes, the badges in Settings do
| qualify as ads and that would have been a stronger
| argument). You could also argue about all the fake apps
| in the store, etc., but again that's not part of the core
| OS, which is the topic here.
|
| There are certainly things to complain about on iOS, but
| in this case you're just inventing a non-issue.
| Marsymars wrote:
| I find this response kind of puzzling. I'm telling you
| about my subjective use of iOS. As far as I'm concerned,
| the App Store is a core part of iOS. iOS isn't a useful
| OS without the App Store. I can't install apps or
| manually update them without seeing ads. It's not really
| a matter of definitions, it's simply a matter of how I
| use iOS.
|
| I've prefaced all my comments on this subject by pointing
| out that I'm describing _my_ experience. And in my
| experience, despite my best effort to avoid ads, I 'm
| forced to see more (and lower quality) ads on iOS than I
| am on Windows.
| pupppet wrote:
| It completely makes sense to find ads for apps in the App
| Store.
| Marsymars wrote:
| Sure, it makes sense. They're still intrusive,
| unavoidable, unwanted, and make the experience worse.
|
| It would also "make sense" for "sudo apt install firefox"
| to show me an Google-sponsored ad to instead consider
| Chrome.
| orev wrote:
| This topic is not about ads in app stores, it's about ads
| in unavoidable interfaces that you must interact with on
| a daily basis, like the Start Menu, security icons,
| explorer windows, etc. the App Store in iOS can easily be
| moved into a folder and never looked at again unless you
| want to install a new app.
|
| Nobody is saying the App Store ads aren't annoying, but I
| am saying that it's nowhere near the same level of
| intrusiveness as these Windows changes, because you can
| easily avoid the App Store, and when you do open it you
| know what to expect.
| Marsymars wrote:
| I understand what this topic is about; the App Store is
| an unavoidable interface that I have to regularly
| interact with.
|
| I would love it if Apple provided an alternate method to
| install and update apps on iOS that didn't involve the
| App Store.
|
| The relative intrusiveness of start menu ads is, for me,
| much lower than the App Store ads, as the start menu ads
| (and its connectivity to the web in general) can easily
| be toggled off.
| 7jjjjjjj wrote:
| I don't see ads in F-droid, so clearly it doesn't make
| that much sense.
| NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
| When were they ever a great OS builder? It was always mediocre
| at best, and that not very often.
|
| For many years, I had hoped they'd pull an apple and run linux
| under the hood with a graphic shell that made it look like
| Windows. But times have moved on, and it will never again be an
| important enough product for them to fix in that manner now.
| jm4 wrote:
| I'm not a Windows user anymore, but I think you're selling
| them short. Windows has been a very good OS for 20+ years. If
| you think it's bad now, you should have seen it during the
| Windows 95/98/ME era. Around 2000-ish, they started getting
| serious about security and they began the conversion of their
| mainstream OS to the NT kernel. Since then it's been rock
| solid and the backwards compatibility is second to none.
|
| It's really just the shitty UI more than anything else. The
| ads and paid placement are an embarrassment, and they still
| have an inconsistent UI going back to Windows 8. I guess you
| could throw in telemetry too.
|
| I have just as many gripes about MacOS - probably more. I
| have really disliked that OS for several years now. I feel
| like I have to conform to it rather than have it work for me.
|
| These days, I'm a happy Linux user. It's not perfect, but
| it's the best of the big 3 for me.
| racl101 wrote:
| One Step forward and two steps back.
| jeppester wrote:
| Windows won't get better as long as their consumer unfriendly
| behaviour has no effect on sales.
|
| The EU (or some other authority) should force Windows licenses to
| be a separate purchase. The machines could still come with
| Windows preloaded, but then require a license key to unlock.
|
| It would open the doors for competition and force MS to make
| Windows a compelling product that users would want to pay for.
| npteljes wrote:
| > Windows won't get better as long as their consumer unfriendly
| behaviour has no effect on sales.
|
| I agree. And MS agrees too - which is why they do the bundling
| thing with new computers, deals for schools, bribes for
| governments, and making their moat as wide as they can.
|
| The EU already does a funny thing with the licenses too. They
| come with the computer yes, but they are not married like how
| they are in the US. They are legally required to be able to be
| separated after purchase. So, the second hand market is full of
| licenses like this - you can pick up a Win 10 for $7, Office
| 2019 for $11, and so on.
| NazakiAid wrote:
| Gotta love how the only dismissal option is "Remind me later" and
| gives no option to not show again.
| add-sub-mul-div wrote:
| That's how the UI usually works, but there's never not been a
| registry setting that disables undesirable behavior like this
| in Windows. Hoping that continues to be the case. There's no OS
| that doesn't make me jump through hoops to get it in an
| acceptable state.
| rochak wrote:
| Microsoft improves Windows Challenge: Impossible
| pengaru wrote:
| MS Windows is the daytime television of operating systems:
|
| If you're still using it in 2023 you have only yourself to blame.
| It's not like there aren't better options at your disposal...
| yetanotherloser wrote:
| Or you need a niche application that's only available on
| Windows, or you don't want to rebuy it or a near equivalent for
| the Mac.
| Kye wrote:
| Or don't want to buy a Mac when you already have a perfectly
| serviceable PC.
| yetanotherloser wrote:
| Also a good point. My family desktop isn't quite
| grandfather's axe but it would be wasteful to just dump it,
| and if I convert it to Linux some of the games my wife and
| kids want to play can't follow.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| In a lot of industries, there really aren't, unfortunately.
| Sure, there are other options in some cases, but they come at
| the expense of productivity, so they're not really better.
| mypornaccount wrote:
| I just want an OS where; out of the box, I can play any game
| made in the last 20 years, change my mouse scroll speed, or set
| my background to a solid color.
| warkdarrior wrote:
| You can do all of those in Linux. For example, here's how to
| set the background to a solid color. Open a terminal and type
| the following four commands: gsettings set
| org.gnome.desktop.background picture-options 'none'
| gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.background primary-color
| '#004000' gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.background
| secondary-color '#306030' gsettings set
| org.gnome.desktop.background color-shading-type 'vertical'
|
| Source: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1272120/ubuntu-20-04-
| change-...
| dabluecaboose wrote:
| Hilarious how the first Linux user's response to a Windows
| user's unease is immediately "open the terminal"
|
| As long as that's how it goes, it will never be the Year of
| the Linux Desktop.
| snvzz wrote:
| Typing (or pasting) a command into a terminal will always
| be more reproduceable than anything GUI.
| dabluecaboose wrote:
| Sure, and I'm personally fine with it. I'm one of those
| kooks at work who requested a Linux workstation, much to
| the chagrin of the IT department.
|
| But as long as there is a conversation between Windows
| and Linux that includes using the terminal, you've lost
| the "normie" segment of the population, which is going to
| preclude most people from even considering it.
|
| This fact is invariably met with much wailing and
| gnashing of teeth by Linux bros who think that there's no
| problem at all with it.
| snvzz wrote:
| And we're fine with it.
|
| They can suffer Windows or MacOS, it means nothing to me.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| I'm not entirely fine with it, because I suspect Valve
| will only continue investing in Linux gaming if there's a
| potential market for it.
| snvzz wrote:
| I doubt this "potential market" is going to shrink,
| relative to when Valve started investing in Open Source
| operating systems.
| unstatusthequo wrote:
| Exactly. Where everything I need to do requires a cryptic
| command to pull off. What args do I need? Where? Oh shit
| a capital letter. Try again. I don't want to have to
| Google everything I need to do. Maybe voice enabled GPT-4
| will help.
| MrLeap wrote:
| this is hilarious.
| Espressosaurus wrote:
| I'm not sure if this is satire or not.
| tmtvl wrote:
| I don't think any OS comes with all games made the last 20
| years out of the box. Nor one which supports any game made
| the last 20 years.
|
| But yeah, mouse scroll speed is an excellent example of the
| harm GNOME does to GNU/Linux adoption.
| sybercecurity wrote:
| Maybe for individual/home/personal use but Microsoft rules the
| enterprise. It is easier to find IT admins who can manage a
| fleet of Windows boxes than MacOS/Linux. There is also a whole
| ecosystem around the use of MS Office tools.
|
| The sunken cost fallacy applies IMHO, but too many corporate IT
| managers just assume Windows systems and Windows AD is the the
| only way to manage a large set of corporate users.
| Nexxxeh wrote:
| If you want first-class Office interop, or require industry-
| specific tools, you're on Windows. Next closest is Mac, and
| that's not a substitute for a PC for a vast number of people
| (not least because they're so expensive.)
|
| Edit: When I started writing the response, parent had no
| replies. I didn't mean to dogpile.
| yamazakiwi wrote:
| There are many that don't have control over what operating
| system they use.
| xeromal wrote:
| Not many people use this excuse, but I'm honestly too old to
| give a shit about any other OS. lol I'm gonna die using windows
| and that's alright.
| pengaru wrote:
| > Not many people use this excuse, but I'm honestly too old
| to give a shit about any other OS. lol I'm gonna die using
| windows and that's alright.
|
| It's actually ^ _this_ ^ perspective that most fits the
| "daytime television" analogy. The old fogies have precisely
| that attitude, and they're primarily who still watch daytime
| TV.
|
| Now that most of the population aims their eyeballs at
| something other than TV, TV has become a wasteland of
| geriatric-targeted ads/political propaganda (old people vote)
| with a pittance of content mixed in. It's being stripped
| clean of what flesh remains, in its final death throes until
| its remaining viewers completely die off.
|
| MS Windows is on the same trajectory, which started with MS
| failing to get Windows on smartphones. Now that so many grow
| up using non-Windows mobile devices instead of home PCs,
| Windows will only become increasingly desperate, dated, and
| tasteless in its revenue/power-generating schemes.
|
| Hopefully FLOSS can prove more robust against this cycle...
| It's not like we don't see similar patterns emerging with
| Mozilla embedding ads/"suggestions" in Firefox tabs, or
| Canonical putting ads in Ubuntu. But at least there will
| always be alternatives thanks to the ability to fork and
| compete when the source is available.
| poisonborz wrote:
| [flagged]
| jonathantf2 wrote:
| I tried to use Linux on my desktop for a year but ended up
| switching back to Windows for various reasons:
|
| - Work apps that weren't compatible
|
| - Awful screen tearing issues
|
| - Bluetooth dropping out (mouse) and glitching (audio) all the
| time
|
| - Games didn't work (and you can't screenshare with audio on
| Linux in Discord)
|
| I'm sure I could have fixed these but after getting to the
| third page of Google looking how to solve a problem it was just
| easier to go back to Windows which I've (touch wood) never had
| stability problems with, it just works. I've never had it
| automatically update in the middle of the day, install apps
| that I didn't want by itself or delete any of my files.
| gnulinux wrote:
| It's truly incredible how we as humans can exist in the same
| world but have entirely different experiences. I never had
| the issues you listed in Linux, and my experience has been
| mostly stable (not saying no bugs, all software has bugs in
| 2023). But, oh my god, the few times I used Windows, I was
| continuously tortured by the unbelievable instability. On my
| Thinkpad X1 Carbon, Windows still displays the wrong time
| with Google searches leading to no solution. I used Windows
| for very specific reasons and I was hit with "hooly crap
| never fucking again". Now, if I need to use a program that
| doesn't work in WINE, I just explain to the person "I'm
| unable to do that because I have no interest in working with
| Windows". Recently, the US tax CPA I'm working with asked me
| to use a program to sign something that only works in
| Windows. After telling that, they insisted I must otherwise
| they can't file my taxes, so I had to say "no, I'm unable to
| use Windows, I have no access to it", so they found another
| way to do it.
|
| It boggles my mind how someone can have the opposite
| experience.
| TwoNineA wrote:
| It runs PC games better than anything else.
| UberFly wrote:
| "It's not like there aren't better options at your disposal"
|
| For what exactly? For many, many things, windows is your ONLY
| option. Switching to Linux or Apple would mean kissing away so
| much software availability.
| zeroego wrote:
| I use Ubuntu for work, but my gaming rig runs windows. I went
| through all of the applications I use on my windows pc the other
| day and they're all available on linux now. With proton getting
| as good as it is, app availability on linux, and with the
| annoying occasional ads coming through my windows os, I'm
| starting to think I won't upgrade to windows 11 when 10 stops
| being supported.
| whalesalad wrote:
| Only thing keeping me on Windows is the anticheat software
| employed by games like MWII.
| monkaiju wrote:
| I refuse to use software as intrusive as the anti-cheat
| stuff, just not worth it.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| That's my position as well.
|
| Even if we just look at it from a hedonistic perspective. I
| play games to be happy and destress. Windows' abusiveness
| and anticheat software make me unhappy and/or stressed. For
| pure hedonism I'm better off with Proton and a smaller
| selection of games.
| whalesalad wrote:
| My friends and I live all around the US. The one game we
| all play together has anticheat. It also happens to be
| cross platform and they are on console. As far as being
| happy - being able to cross play with my buds and voice
| chat while we are thousands of miles apart is well worth
| it.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| I had to use Ubuntu at work and the experience made me hate it
| to the core.
|
| My experience: Gnome it ships with is too opinionated with no
| basic configuration options without installing 200 extensions
| which may or may not work, no option to turn off the touchpad
| when an external mouse is pugged in, no hibernate option
| because z-ram or something, no fractional scaling because
| "pixels aren't fractional" to quote Gnome devs, Wayland broke
| screen sharing in some apps and extensions while switching to
| X11 gave me screen tearing and made touchpad gestures stop
| working, had no HW acceleration in Chrome, SNAP and APT shit
| the bed needing me to spend hours going through forum posts for
| fixes and tinker with the command line, OOM daemon can just
| straight up kill your main productivity app you're currently
| using, the list goes on. This is not a great UX.
|
| All those issues are productivity show stoppers for me, and in
| Windows 11 Professional they just work for out of the box
| without the need to install any extensions or tinker with any
| config files. Also better battery life.
|
| Hot take: I can ignore/disable ads but I can't ignore an OS
| where much is broken or is never meant to work.
|
| I thought this was supposed to be the flagship Linux distro but
| I'm sorry to say that it's more janky than the car Homer
| Simpson designed.
|
| Still like Linux but via ssh and on a server or embedded
| system.
| belter wrote:
| Only Chuck Norris could use Windows...
| taftster wrote:
| Ostensibly, yes.
|
| But in practice, Chuck Norris compiles his own personal
| fork of Linux by hand.
|
| [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20110818104209/http://deara
| ndroi...
|
| [2] https://snipe.net/2009/07/16/if-chuck-norris-had-
| designed-li...
| JohnFen wrote:
| > As Microsoft puts it: "We are continuing the exploration of
| badging on the Start menu with several new treatments for users
| logging in with local user accounts to highlight the benefits of
| signing in with a Microsoft account (MSA)."
|
| What is Microsoft really thinking here? You have to go out of
| your way (and probably do a web search) in order to figure out
| how to install Win 11 without using a Microsoft Account. So those
| people deliberately chose that -- they didn't avoid the MSA
| because they were unaware of the benefits, they did it because
| they were aware of the drawbacks and want to avoid them.
|
| Harassing them seems more likely to make them angry than to make
| them change their minds.
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| I went ahead and installed Linux the moment I realized I had to
| go through a ton of hoops in order to install Windows 11
| offline. I'm only ever going to use Windows for work machines
| that someone else is paying me to use, and even then, I might
| just start asking for a Mac instead. I'm over this awful OS
| nonsense they're doing to Windows. Whoever is in charge of the
| OS clearly does not care.
|
| If I were manning the ship at Microsoft for Windows, I'd make
| the OS slimmer and far more lightweight.
| JCWasmx86 wrote:
| I recently installed Windows 10 in a VM to port a program to
| Windows (Was a horror story). On the left side in the start
| menu I have ads and other crap: "Trending searches",
| "Trending videos from the web", "Games for you", "Trending
| news" and some other stuff like a reminder for the
| International day for Monuments and Sites.
|
| On the right side I have a weather/news widget from some
| really shady or local newspapers about "celebrities", a lot
| of clickbait, stock data etc.
|
| And obviously the first time I opened Edge I was greeted with
| some annoying banner, that I should login etc.
|
| A default installation of an OS should only come with the
| bare amount of software necessary. If they had asked: "Do you
| want to have news/recommendations? - Yes/No,never ask again"
| it would be really okay as there was no forced consent, but
| installing it by default is simply a bad decision. (From a
| users' perspective, it probably makes sense from a corporate
| perspective as otherwise they wouldn't do it)
| copper-float wrote:
| All of these gross advertising decisions baked into the
| operating system disgust me. Not to mention all the
| tracking they probably do to you on top of it.
|
| The best solution I've found is Windows 10 IoT Enterprise.
| It feels like an alternate timeline where Microsoft didn't
| dive headfirst into manipulative advertising practices.
| None of those pointless bloatware apps, no blatant
| advertising loitered across the OS.
|
| I don't want tabloid trash baked into my start menu. It
| would be one thing if we were actually allowed to curate
| and choose the news, but it's all selected for us. It feels
| like they're trying to manipulate the way people think with
| decisions like that.
| baggachipz wrote:
| > I don't want tabloid trash baked into my start menu. It
| would be one thing if we were actually allowed to curate
| and choose the news, but it's all selected for us. It
| feels like they're trying to manipulate the way people
| think with decisions like that.
|
| No, they're paid handsomely by others who _are_ trying to
| manipulate the way people think.
| baal80spam wrote:
| > The best solution I've found is Windows 10 IoT
| Enterprise
|
| What is the difference between this one and LTSC?
| dasv wrote:
| It seems there is enough pushback from Microsoft's
| enterprise clients because the W10 LTSC versions lack all
| the adware and most of the spyware that is pushed on the
| regular versions. Of course, they are not advertised
| anywhere and buying licenses through regular channels is
| impossible for a home user or a small company.
|
| I haven't compared resource usage between my previous W10
| Pro VM and my current W10 LTSC VM but it seems to start up
| much faster, and of course the aggravation from using it is
| way lower.
| warner25 wrote:
| Ironically, my employer just replaces all of Microsoft's
| crap with its own crap, pushed out to every client
| through GPOs and SCCM and other tools. So we get full
| screen banners, sometimes by launching PowerPoint and
| showing a slide, about things like cybersecurity
| awareness or [minority group] History Month. And it takes
| many minutes to boot up and login and get a functional
| desktop with all that, plus the scanning by McAfee and
| Nessus and Tanium.
| blincoln wrote:
| I was a systems engineer supporting Windows and software
| running on Windows at a large corporation for a decade. My
| only complaint at the time was that the CLI was so inferior
| to Unix/Linux.
|
| MS' increasingly poor UI/UX decisions starting with Windows
| 8/Server 2012 have caused me to relegate Windows to a "legacy
| support" role in a VM on any new hardware I buy. They really
| had to work to overcome all of that good will, but they've
| been relentless.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| I've been using linux as my primary desktop for the past 20
| years. Is it perfect? No, but it's damned powerful for
| development, fast, and fully customizable.
|
| Ironically, my love of linux on the desktop has also kept me
| gaming on console. I've strongly considered building a pc and
| the thought of having to use windows (proton has come a long
| way, but a lot of games I'd like to play aren't supported) is
| enough to give me pause. I get the feeling that I'd mainly
| use WSL except for gaming.
| idle_zealot wrote:
| Yeah, dual booting for gaming is a pain. That's why I do
| most of my gaming in a Windows 10 VM these days. I pass
| through a GPU and use looking glass for I/O and it's great!
| I just have Windows living on one of my virtual desktops
| and can instantly switch between games and host
| applications.
| npteljes wrote:
| You think a Mac is better, but it really isn't. In fact,
| MacOS and iOS are further ahead in terms of dark patterns
| like this. FOSS OSes don't have these patterns, but they have
| other issues of course.
| JCWasmx86 wrote:
| Companies should really accept a "No" from their users. No I
| don't want to use a microsoft account just to use my computer.
| (Without jumping through hoops) Don't ask me again the moment I
| say "No".
|
| You can see the same with all those dialogs that only have
| "Yes, do $THING" and "Remind me later".
| dm319 wrote:
| This is what autonomy and consent is all about.
| firstlink wrote:
| _Companies_ don 't actually care at all when you say no.
| Developers who can leverage a 2% kpi bump into a promotion
| care, and are driving this. (And to be clear, they don't get
| the promotion because "the company" cares, but because their
| management chain can transitively benefit.
| xattt wrote:
| > Companies should really accept a "No" from their users.
|
| At some point, it gets into "creepy pervert" territory.
| afandian wrote:
| I got this from BBC Sounds app.
|
| https://imgur.com/a/CSMwv96
|
| A full screen dialogue box with no other way of dismissing
| it but "maybe later".
|
| "Switch on notifications and we'll find new releases that
| you might like, so you don't have to.
|
| Sounds good
|
| Maybe later"
|
| No shred of concern for consent.
|
| I get if you're a scrappy startup growth hacking taking
| ethical shortcuts. But a public service broadcaster should
| have better standards.
|
| (edit - to be clear, scummy behaviour is scummy behaviour
| whoever's doing it)
| JohnFen wrote:
| > I get if you're a scrappy startup growth hacking taking
| ethical shortcuts.
|
| Nope.
|
| Scrappy startup or established corporation, it doesn't
| matter. Taking ethical shortcuts makes you a Bad Guy.
| not_a_shill wrote:
| Aren't you being manipulative by creating stark moral
| lines for something that is ultimately irrelevant? That
| makes you a "Bad Guy" too.
| JohnFen wrote:
| I don't think I agree that ethics are ultimately
| irrelevant. Regardless, though, I think you're confusing
| being "manipulative" with being "opinionated".
|
| I'm 100% being opinionated. I'm not being manipulative,
| though, because I am not trying to make anyone do
| anything -- let alone trying to do it through unwarranted
| emotional appeals.
| not_a_shill wrote:
| Are you kidding me? You're purely appealing to emotions
| with the moral labels.
|
| Your post got the parent comment to edit their post
| because they felt they weren't taking a harsh enough
| stance against what you consider unethical. It was
| manipulative.
| JohnFen wrote:
| Again, in order to be manipulative, I would have had to
| been intending to alter what someone else does. I had no
| such intent.
|
| What I did was express my opinion. You seem to be arguing
| that expressing an opinion is a bad thing.
|
| I'm not sure what I've said that made you so angry. The
| opinion I expressed was "unethical behavior is unethical
| regardless of who does it", which I would not have
| expected to be controversial.
| not_a_shill wrote:
| You don't need active intent to be emotionally
| manipulative. Being manipulative is about control.
|
| Your actions attempt to exert control over other people
| by making _them_ acquiesce to your ethical demands, lest
| they want to be considered "bad guys" too. Hence the guy
| editing his post from his original point of empathy to
| something lesser.
|
| >You seem to be arguing that expressing an opinion is a
| bad thing.
|
| My main point that I haven't made clear is that
| individual bad or unethical actions don't make a person
| "good" or "bad". That's what I take exception to in your
| post.
|
| That was my intent by pointing out that you could be
| considered a "Bad Guy" if we were to reduce people down
| to a single black/white moral adjective based on _one_ of
| their actions.
|
| Your recap of your comment is not controversial. It
| doesn't have any of the language I take exception to.
| JohnFen wrote:
| Ahh, I understand better now. Thank you.
|
| > Your actions attempt to exert control over other people
| by making them acquiesce to your ethical demands
|
| I think that you might be reading a bit too much into
| this. That was absolutely not my intent.
|
| > individual bad or unethical actions don't make a person
| "good" or "bad".
|
| I agree. I was speaking casually, using slang that I
| assumed would be understood (that's why I capitalized
| "Bad Guy" -- to indicate that I'm not literally talking
| about the person being fundamentally bad).
|
| The irony is that the reason I speak rather formally in
| my comments on HN is to try to minimize exactly what
| happened here -- having my statements misunderstood in a
| way that I didn't anticipate. English makes
| misunderstanding all too easy.
|
| That one just slipped past my rhetorical guard.
| afandian wrote:
| This is getting very meta.
|
| I profoundly resent this behaviour from the BBC app and
| from the people who built it. I would resent it from any
| party. It's no problem to clarify that.
|
| But to the "bad guy". IMHO behaviour is different from
| identity (i.e. a focus on what people do and the effect
| it has, not who they are).
|
| If the premise of your organisation is existentially
| predicated on scummy behaviour then that does implicate
| identity and maybe you are the cartoon villain "bad guy".
| The developers aren't bad guys, nor are the BBC. But they
| are both doing (marginally) harmful things.
|
| But "bad guy" is also common shorthand for "guy who
| exhibits bad behaviour". For some that distinction might
| even be splitting hairs.
| not_a_shill wrote:
| I agree with all of that. That was my main point in
| general. Separate out individual behaviors from what a
| person "is".
|
| >But "bad guy" is also common shorthand for "guy who
| exhibits bad behaviour". For some that distinction might
| even be splitting hairs.
|
| This is where the disagreement really comes from. It's a
| very common posting style on Reddit/Twitter/social &
| political HN threads.
|
| I just don't like it.
| firstlink wrote:
| Look this stuff might be stupid but they _really_ don 't
| need your consent to do offer certain features on their
| website/app which you are voluntarily using.
|
| It seems you are the one who does not understand consent.
| dspillett wrote:
| One of the reasons I refuse to install the thing. Another
| being it no doubt it requires me to setup an account
| (making up personal details as I do so) like other BBC
| properties do. There are some things I've stopped
| listening to as they are not available elsewhere (or are
| available 28 days later but have time sensitive content).
| At some point, if this keep moving this way, I'll use BBC
| content so little that I can just disable it on all my
| devices and stop paying the license fee (unless by then
| the licensing arrangement has changed so I'm still liable
| to pay in that circumstance).
|
| Interestingly the image host you link to with that
| screenshot refuses to remember that I don't want to
| install their app on my device.
| nicbou wrote:
| I keep saying that if someone understood consent like tech
| companies, you would keep an eye on your drink whenever
| they're around.
| techsupporter wrote:
| And notice how "Yes" is permanent. Once you "agree," you can
| never go back without starting all over again, if even then.
|
| This is why there are no more "No" selections. The developers
| --from marketing to the people who ask ChatGPT to spit out
| the required Python code and then paste it into a GitHub
| repository--all have financial motivations for you to say
| "Yes".
| ehPReth wrote:
| website you've never seen before:
|
| "Sign up for our newsletter?"
|
| "Yes! I want $10 off my first purchase of $200 or more!" "No,
| I hate saving money."
| dizhn wrote:
| My pet peeve is ones that make you say "Please". I don't
| know what they are thinking.
| xattt wrote:
| "Your answer 'I hate savings' contains the letter 'S', just
| like the word 'yes'. You have been signed up for
| newsletters anyway."
| JohnFen wrote:
| > "No, I hate saving money."
|
| Funny thing -- in my head, that sounds exactly like "No, I
| hate manipulative assholes."
| handity wrote:
| Users should learn to say "no" to companies. The surveillance
| advertising economy is not some hapless mistake that
| companies will suddenly wake up to one day and realize the
| error of their ways. Whatever Microsoft "should" do is just
| wishful thinking. Change will come from users or regulation,
| and regulation seems unlikely.
| JohnFen wrote:
| In my comments here over the years, I have occasionally
| mentioned how I don't do business with certain companies or
| use certain sorts of products because I find the companies
| objectionable.
|
| What I find interesting/hilarious is how often someone will
| reply to me saying that my life would be so much easier if
| I just gave in and used them anyway, or (worse) how I'm
| being wrong in some way by being selective about who I
| support with my money.
|
| That borg-like "you will be assimilated" sort of commentary
| is fascinating, disturbing, and goes far to illustrate how
| there are ordinary people who absolutely don't want you to
| exert your economic authority.
| diveandfight wrote:
| > That borg-like "you will be assimilated" sort of
| commentary is fascinating, disturbing, and goes far to
| illustrate how there are ordinary people who absolutely
| don't want you to exert your economic authority.
|
| I've learned not to underestimate the extents to which
| people will go to rationalize their cognitive dissonance.
| In person, my tactic has just been to self-censor more -
| I guess I'm tired/lazy and don't want to be bothered
| unnecessarily.
| nobody9999 wrote:
| >I've learned not to underestimate the extents to which
| people will go to rationalize their cognitive dissonance.
| In person, my tactic has just been to self-censor more -
| I guess I'm tired/lazy and don't want to be bothered
| unnecessarily.
|
| I couldn't agree more. As someone with _decades_ of
| infosec experience, I stopped trying to get my family
| members ( _especially_ those who don 't have any
| technical background) not to use abusive
| products/services, especially on their smartphones years
| ago, because I got sick of having to hear about how
| _wrong_ I was from folks who wouldn 't know good security
| hygiene if it came up and bit them.
|
| It just wasn't worth the argument.
|
| As in most situations (not just tech/infosec), some
| lessons can't be learned from others, the mistakes must
| be experienced personally to actually get it. Those
| lessons are different for everyone, but are pretty
| ubiquitous. I've certainly been there myself.
|
| Edit: Corrected prose to actually make sense.
| PicassoCTs wrote:
| But they don't respect the consumer any more.
|
| Your selections are never final. Your settings can always be
| reset on the next update. Your choices can be withered down,
| like a stone by water.
|
| You are the least important part of these monopolies dukeing
| it out for the crown. You lost your ability to choose years
| ago.
|
| What happens now, is just formalities and preparing future
| generations for the new normality.
|
| The capitalism that worked for the common men, was dead the
| moment the wall dropped.
| whoopdedo wrote:
| It's what the phrase "the customer is always right"
| originally meant. It means you can do all the market
| research, development, testing, polling, and seeding to sell
| a product. But the ultimate decider of whether the product is
| "good" is whether or not the people buy it. If your sales
| plan flops don't say "it's not the product's fault, I just
| need to do a better job marketing it." No, the product is
| wrong, the customer is right. Don't try to change peoples'
| behavior, instead change your marketing to target what people
| are actually buying. That could mean scrapping the project
| because it's unpopular, but could also mean narrowing the
| focus to the smaller population that really does want what
| you're selling.
|
| Well, that's what it originally meant. Nowadays it's been
| twisted to mean reacting to every minor complaint and demand
| in order to retain existing customers, no matter how
| unreasonable or costly the effort. Rather than helping
| increase productivity it's become a weapon to punish
| subordinate sales staffs.
| test1235 wrote:
| I think the original saying was longer, and something along
| the lines of, "the customer is always right when it comes
| to taste".
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| No, that's a more recent thing.
| toss1 wrote:
| >>That could mean scrapping the project because it's
| unpopular, but could also mean narrowing the focus to the
| smaller population that really does want what you're
| selling.
|
| ... or, keep improving the product to the point where most
| people _actually_ find it useful, which is obviously an
| option for Microsoft, with cash reserves to fund centuries
| of development. Find out what the downsides are, and fix
| them, or offer _actually_ compelling benefits.
|
| Heck, I'm very hard-set against it, but I just heard about
| Apple starting to offer savings accts with 4.5% interest.
| If MS started paying that much, with trustworthy security
| and no upper limit, I might sign up (i.e., if you pay me
| enough, I might also accept your other parts of the offer).
|
| It must be damn valuable for MS to have us have accounts,
| and if so, they could actually afford to provide better
| returns than banks, because the return to MS would be
| [banking profit] + [network profit].
| JohnFen wrote:
| > or, keep improving the product to the point where most
| people actually find it useful
|
| Some product ideas can't be made desirable and useful no
| matter how much improvement they get.
| toss1 wrote:
| True, but you start paying enough, and you'll get bigger
| and bigger populations who find it an acceptable bargain.
|
| You'll also always have some who see through it.
| cduzz wrote:
| Please define "Customer" in this context?
|
| There are several parties at this party. One is the person
| who bought a computer with an operating system on it;
| possibly they even paid for the operating system itself,
| though more likely they are using the operating system that
| came on the computer they're using. Another party is the
| one who bought a license from microsoft; occasionally
| they're the same party but more typically it is some sort
| of vendor who did this. And there's also the party that's
| giving microsoft money to put advertising in front of the
| "consumer."
|
| So -- it isn't clear to me who in this context is "always
| right"
| alex_young wrote:
| If you buy a car from a dealership does that make you
| less of a customer of the manufacturer?
| cduzz wrote:
| If you buy a car from a dealership, then yes indeed you
| are "less" of a customer of the manufacturer.
|
| Consider this relationship:
|
| Toyota makes a car to the specifications of general
| motors, who brands the car as a "Pontiac Vibe" and sells
| the car to a Pontiac dealership. The Pontiac dealership
| then sells you the car at mostly a wash because you're
| also financing the purchase and they want to sell "your"
| loan to a loan bundler and reseller.
|
| So -- everyone gets a cut, and almost nobody's actually
| got a direct interest in how the schlub who buys a car
| feels about the car.
| thewebcount wrote:
| This seems like something we'll get to see play out over
| the next few years. Given that GM has decided that they
| don't care if customers want CarPlay, we'll see if
| customers say "No thanks" to buying cars from GM because
| of that.
| alex_young wrote:
| I don't believe you've proven the point you're attempting
| to make.
|
| Tesla is a rather famous example of a car manufacturer
| that doesn't have a dealership model. Do you imagine that
| GM or Toyota is somehow less interested in how their cars
| are either liked or disliked by their target audiences
| than Tesla is? That seems pretty hard to imagine.
| cduzz wrote:
| I'll try to be clear here:
|
| Microsoft is selling _your_ eyeballs to advertisers: You
| are the _product_ not the customer.
|
| Vendors are buying windows from Microsoft and installing
| it onto a computer and selling that computer to you. You
| are buying a computer not windows. If you need support
| you talk to the vendor, not microsoft. The _vendor_ is
| the customer to Microsoft, not you.
|
| And regarding cars -- car companies make lots of crappy
| cars and sell them to dealerships who have to buy them
| regardless of if they want them or not. The dealerships
| are the customers of the car companies. You are a
| customer of the dealership. 99% of the time if you've got
| a problem with the car, the manufacturer is going to be
| of limited use to you.
| nordsieck wrote:
| > Microsoft is selling _your_ eyeballs to advertisers:
| You are the _product_ not the customer.
|
| > Vendors are buying windows from Microsoft and
| installing it onto a computer and selling that computer
| to you. You are buying a computer not windows.
|
| Sometimes people _are_ buying Windows[1].
|
| It is possible to be the customer for the OS and the
| product for the ads at the same time.
|
| ---
|
| 1. https://www.microsoft.com/en-
| us/d/windows-11-home/dg7gmgf0kr...
| jackmott wrote:
| [dead]
| Samon wrote:
| In the newspaper industry, the 'Customer' refers to the
| advertisers who pay for the ads, advertorials, sponsored
| content, etc that actually make the publication a viable
| business model.
|
| The individual who buys and reads the newspapaper is
| referred to as the 'Consumer'.
| npteljes wrote:
| Companies should be regulated to offer No as an option, and
| to make that option for all intents are purposes equally
| represented. No other way will work. Abuse makes a lot of
| money.
| msm_ wrote:
| Sounds good, but what does it mean in practice?
|
| - Does every program need to support offline account? (what
| about MMO games?)
|
| - Does every program need to support online account?
| (tongue in cheek, for people who prefer online services)
|
| - What if I don't want to install a particular Windows
| update because I dislike something about it? Right now I
| can stay forever on an obsolete version (I assume), but
| that's not "equally represented" - my computer is broken
| now.
|
| I think it's very hard (or borderline impossible) to do
| what you ask for. Even in Open Source, where choice is
| almost a religion, not all options are equally easy for
| users.
| faluzure wrote:
| _cough_ Reddit Mobile Web _cough_
| chongli wrote:
| I don't see how we get them to accept a "No" when they know
| they can make more money by relentlessly badgering the users
| until they say "Yes".
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| And by the time they get a push back, if there is any, they
| will have made enough money to spend a 10th of it in PR to
| buy back their karma points.
|
| Few vote with their wallets anyway, so it's a winning
| strategy.
| rolph wrote:
| access to private computer system vs harrassment.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment
| mihaaly wrote:
| Not paying them, perhaps? : /
|
| Not buying their products.
| public_defender wrote:
| That doesn't work in this situation. What percentage of
| windows users "bought the product"? Someone else bought
| it and put it on the computer without any user input.
| It's like buying a house and finding out that it has a
| coin-operated lock on the front door when you try to move
| in.
| mihaaly wrote:
| Without client conciousness clients will be fcked!
|
| Sooner or later will be, as their agressive provider
| shoves more and more crap down their throat without
| resistance it will only make that provider more and more
| determined feeding even more crap for fortunes. Not being
| satisfied and stop. It will continue into the eternity if
| can. When something is forced on you that you do not want
| or even harmful for you then not the submitting is the
| answer but to push back. Be lazy or be fcked! Those are
| the choices. We seen it before in the history.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| Don't come with client consciousness.
|
| MS's deal with computer manufacturers makes them pay more
| if they want to not install Windows on all of the
| computers they sell. And when some decided to just sell
| computers, you know, unbundled, the way that maximizes
| consumer choice, they were framed as criminally enriching
| from piracy and lots of governments felt into them with
| all their rage.
|
| It's not the client's fault that corrupt powerful people
| use violence to take down their rights.
| firstlink wrote:
| > corrupt powerful people use violence to take down their
| rights.
|
| Sir this is a Wendy's.
|
| Or at least, a thread about start menu ads. Touch grass
| and gain perspective.
| mihaaly wrote:
| Not the client is the responsible for others agression of
| course but they are for supplying those doing violents on
| them with their money. Of course thay are! Those doing
| shady business to the damage of the customer while the
| customer aware of this but still pay those doing violence
| is more than responsible: being accomplice. Don't come to
| me with the 'nothing can be done' kind of lazy nonsense
| please! That is just an excuse to remain lazy.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| I highly doubt people buying a Windows 11 license with
| their own money is even 0.1% of the installed base.
|
| If they had hundreds of millions of people, or OEMs,
| sending them $150 USD per license, it would be unlikely
| for them to put in ads. As in windows 7.
|
| But when it's almost freely given away...
| giantrobot wrote:
| > But when it's almost freely given away...
|
| If that's a problem it's one _created_ by Microsoft
| themselves. They 're the one that sets their license
| fees. Their execs set stock guidance.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| What if they don't consider it a problem? Do you think
| there'll be any reasonable chance of change?
| npteljes wrote:
| Doesn't work. The market is not perfect, nor can it ever
| be.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Getting local user accounts working under Win 10 was already
| bad enough, just figuring that out took loner than getting my
| first Linux installed and running. And yes, I went through all
| of that to avoid yet _another_ MS Account.
|
| Not sure what MS wants to achieve with all of that.
| irrational wrote:
| Apple has a similar problem. On setup it wants me to set up
| siri, payment, etc. My options are to setup now or do it later.
| There needs to be a third option that I will never setup these
| things and never ask me again.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| I'm not sure it ever does ask you to set up those things
| again. I never set up fingerprint scanning and I don't recall
| it asking later to set those things up. (maybe it has after a
| patch though I don't recall it.. also maybe if you go to the
| place in settings where you might set one of those things up,
| like if you went into the siri control panel it might prompt
| you to set it up there... but that seems very reasonable.)
| dotty- wrote:
| I don't think Apple recurringly hounds you to sign in when
| you hit "Do it later" though. I read "Do it later" here as a
| subtle reminder that "the option is not gone. You can do it
| later on your own in your system settings if you want", as
| opposed to "ok we'll ask you again later unprompted :)"
| soraminazuki wrote:
| Not to mention that it's also easy to skip. I had Windows
| 10 on my spare machines, and never have I seen an OS that
| showed so much level of contempt towards its users.
|
| Every OS update forces me to go through pages and pages of
| privacy invading settings before letting me use my own
| computer again. Each time the UI for those settings change
| with fresh new additions of dark patterns. Each of those
| settings must be carefully disabled or I'll end up with a
| key logger on my system.
|
| It's not done even after it shows me the desktop either,
| proceeding to add Edge to the desktop, taskbar, and the
| default browser settings, all without even asking.
|
| No other OS comes even close in terms of hostility.
| pedalpete wrote:
| I definitely get hit with a "sign in to siri" on a regular
| basis. The iPhone I use is a dev phone, I don't need all of
| the iCloud, etc services. So I suspect that anybody who
| says "Do it later" will be hounded just like I am.
| tohnjitor wrote:
| my nearly 10 year old imac asks me daily to either install
| updates now, enable auto updates, or "remind me later" for
| software updates. apple doesn't even update anything for
| this OS anymore.
| thewebcount wrote:
| This is stupid, but if I recall correctly, if you click
| the close box "x" in the upper left corner of the
| notification, it will stop asking, but if you say "remind
| me later" it continues to ask you. It is utterly
| infuriating that they use this dark pattern.
| com2kid wrote:
| Everytime my BT headphones connect, Apple Music opens up.
|
| Own and iPhone and you are reminded quite often of the
| benefits of an iCloud subscription.
|
| Try setting up an iPhone w/o an apple account for that
| matter, or using an Android phone (that hasn't been de-
| googled) without a Google account.
|
| Not to mention, users _expect_ their files to be with them
| everywhere. IMHO Microsoft should make OneDrive free with
| some obscene high file limit and default My Documents to
| it, and they should have done this back in the Windows XP
| days.
| jsmith99 wrote:
| Everytime you open settings on a new apple device you get
| a artfully phrased reminder 'x number of days remaining
| to add applecare' and 'try your new trials'.
| soraminazuki wrote:
| > Everytime my BT headphones connect, Apple Music opens
| up.
|
| You make it sound like there's code to show you ads when
| you connect a BT headphone. I can't confirm this despite
| using it daily.
|
| This doesn't happen with AirPods. Nor does it happen with
| a Sony headphone. So it's not behavior baked into the OS.
|
| I'm also sure you meant Music.app, not Apple Music. When
| I open Music.app on a Mac, it shows me the local songs.
| It's also possible to hide Apple Music in Music.app.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| I wouldn't be surprised if some shitty Bluetooth
| headphones send a "play" command on connection, which
| then opens the default music player if no others are
| running, and by default the Music app has some Apple
| Music stuff (though as you say it can be disabled).
|
| While there should ideally be a toggle in the OS to be
| able to ignore play commands completely from bluetooth
| devices (to deal with such defective ones), but I don't
| see it as outright malicious unlike putting spam in the
| start menul
| com2kid wrote:
| > I wouldn't be surprised if some shitty Bluetooth
| headphones send a "play" command on connection,
|
| Bose's highest end headphones.
|
| > While there should ideally be a toggle in the OS to be
| able to ignore play commands completely from bluetooth
| devices (to deal with such defective ones), but I don't
| see it as outright malicious unlike putting spam in the
| start menul
|
| Windows does the "proper" thing here and starts playing
| whatever media was last being played, which while
| annoying, at least is an attempt to follow the standard.
| (And Windows really goes the extra mile to remember what
| was last playing, sometimes resuming sound in a browser
| tab I haven't looked at in several days!)
| JohnFen wrote:
| > at least is an attempt to follow the standard
|
| There's a standard that blesses automatically running a
| media application when headphones are connected?
|
| Unless it can be disabled, that behavior is beyond
| obnoxious.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| > Everytime my BT headphones connect, Apple Music opens
| up.
|
| This does not happen to me w/ my bose bt earbuds ...
| curious.
| GeekyBear wrote:
| > Everytime my BT headphones connect, Apple Music opens
| up.
|
| https://github.com/tombonez/noTunes
|
| > noTunes is a macOS application that will prevent iTunes
| or Apple Music from launching.
|
| Simply launch the noTunes app and iTunes/Music will no
| longer be able to launch. For example, when bluetooth
| headphones reconnect.
|
| You can toggle the apps functionality via the menu bar
| icon with a simple left click.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > using an Android phone (that hasn't been de-googled)
| without a Google account.
|
| This is still very doable (or, it was when I got a new
| phone a couple of years ago). It wasn't even hard to
| avoid using a Google account.
| com2kid wrote:
| > It wasn't even hard to avoid using a Google account.
|
| And then you launch any of the included apps. Chrome
| wants you to sign in, calendar wants you to sign in,
| photos wants you to sign in, not to mention Google photos
| pushes notifications ads trying to sell photo albums.
|
| The photo app will also try to sell you a premium
| subscription to store your photos online.
|
| The phone is very much designed to be used with a Google
| account, you can avoid it, but the experience is limited.
|
| Microsoft noticed that people _liked_ having their photos
| automatically backed up and being able to share them with
| friends and family. Same goes for documents, being able
| to push a "share" button on a family finance planning
| Excel sheet is a lot easier than emailing it around.
|
| There is a lot of crap in the start menu that needs to be
| removed, and the constant attempts to change the default
| browser to Edge needs to stop, but "please backup your
| documents so you don't get all angry at us when your HD
| dies" is not what I'd call an intrusive ad.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > And then you launch any of the included apps. Chrome
| wants you to sign in, calendar wants you to sign in,
| photos wants you to sign in, not to mention Google photos
| pushes notifications ads trying to sell photo albums.
|
| Yes, if you're going to use those apps, you may as well
| sign in with a Google account. I don't use them, though.
| There are plenty of better alternatives to all of them.
|
| > The phone is very much designed to be used with a
| Google account, you can avoid it, but the experience is
| limited.
|
| No, it's really not limited. It does take a little more
| setup to install the apps you want, though.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| > Every time my BT headphones connect, Apple Music opens
| up.
|
| Sounds like your headphones are issuing a play command
| during the connection process. My car does this. It's
| very annoying.
| AnotherGoodName wrote:
| The MG3 will turn on the radio turn the volume up to at
| least 50% and auto play via Bluetooth whenever the
| ignition starts.
|
| So you might not want music. You turn down the radio and
| turn it off. Next ignition you find your paired phone
| starts up Spotify on command from the car and starts
| playing.
|
| It means you have to never pair your phone. Worse than
| annoying. Who wants that? At the very least keep volume
| at 0% if that's what I set it last ignition.
| Lammy wrote:
| > Everytime my BT headphones connect, Apple Music opens
| up.
|
| I had to use a jailbreak tweak to fix this: http://cydia.
| saurik.com/package/com.itortrix.stopplayin12/
| devmor wrote:
| Its not as bad as windows, but it will constantly give you
| a badge on the settings app to notify you that you didn't
| finish setting up siri.
| Twisell wrote:
| Nope just click on the notification to start the setup
| then decline by opting for "do it latter" poof
| notification badge is gone. It might popup again after
| major update if there are "new features" but the same
| step will dismiss the badge/notif.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| That has not been my experience. I got my first Mac last year
| because it was an irresistible used price, and I expected to
| hate MacOS. To my surprise, it's actually been very pleasant,
| inviting me to set up an Apple ID when I first set it up but
| otherwise staying out of my way.
| zeruch wrote:
| It's not "more likely" to make us angry. It's a goddamn
| certitude.
| r00fus wrote:
| They view their users as a captive audience. Where else are you
| going to go?
| dylan604 wrote:
| So you're saying Windows has become nagware?
| copper-float wrote:
| Absolutely, well beyond nagware at this point (with default
| settings).
| hef19898 wrote:
| I vaguely remember a time when browsers would install all
| kind of crappy add-ons, or any other software installer for
| that matter. Now we reached a point were the OS does it...
| dylan604 wrote:
| Did the browser do that install, or did the user install
| something on their own that came with additional
| software? the infamous purple gorilla or whatever it was
| that you thought you were installing one thing, but a
| whole other thing was installed at the same time.
| sourceforge's dark UI of downloading software, but also
| downloading/installing a whole other program hidden
| behind a vaguely worded auto-selected checkbox. i just
| don't remember being able to blame the browser for this.
| j16sdiz wrote:
| Opera browser did bundle some Mcafee stuffs.
| dspillett wrote:
| Yes. It has already been spyware for some time.
| widowlark wrote:
| Case in point, I only use windows for one game and one other
| program, and my long term plan is to eliminate it from my life
| altogether. Sorry microsoft, you really messed up here.
| bigger_inside wrote:
| I've never used linux. After a hundred frustrations with my new
| laptop that runs Win11, I'm now looking to install ubuntu.
| Windows pushed me there.
| robswc wrote:
| I get so frustrated when I have to do _anything_ with my
| Microsoft account that never needed it before.
|
| Installing and running docker on windows was a nightmare lol
| troad wrote:
| I was at this point a few years back, and I am so happy
| having made the switch. Kubuntu is my strong recommendation
| for any switcher's first distro, but there's a lot of great
| options out there.
| rolph wrote:
| there are a number of linux flavours to choose from. its also
| pretty easy to convert from one to another.
|
| e.g. [https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Infos/News/Which-
| Linux-op...]
| snvzz wrote:
| Arch Linux.
|
| Great community and excellent documentation wiki that'll hold
| your hand every step of the way.
| artogahr wrote:
| hold your hand... if you have a hand to begin with. Most
| beginner users won't be able to follow most things in the
| Arch wiki.
| snvzz wrote:
| I installed Gentoo when it was new with far less
| handholding. I was a child.
|
| If you're literate enough to be able to read the wiki,
| you can manage to install, use every day, and get good
| at, Arch Linux.
| theodric wrote:
| Install Arch, get everything working, and DO NOT install
| updates. I've never had another distro that would randomly
| render itself unbootable or break core functionality with
| such frequency with the simple weekly application of
| updates. Really distressing.
| snvzz wrote:
| Wow.
|
| I have used Arch as my main system for 6 years now (was
| Gentoo before) and never had anything of the sort.
|
| How does this even happen?
| Zak wrote:
| Arch Linux is a great choice for someone who wants to _know
| Linux_. I am writing this comment from Arch Linux.
|
| Arch Linux is not a great choice for someone who just wants
| to use Linux. There's a lot of learning just to install it,
| while less expert-oriented distributions can have a system
| up and running in 20 minutes with very little expertise on
| the part of the user.
| snvzz wrote:
| Serious question here: Why would someone NOT want to know
| Linux?
|
| When ignoring the short term, what's the advantage, if
| any, of using a system without mastering it?
| chappi42 wrote:
| Have a look at Pop!_OS too.
| Rimintil wrote:
| You'll be trading one set of known frustrations with another
| set of unknown frustrations.
|
| A few years ago, I ran Fedora w/ KDE Plasma. What _seemed_ to
| be random is the GTK fonts throughout the UI changed to a
| mono-spaced font regardless of what the control panel showed.
|
| It "resolved itself" within a few weeks.
|
| I don't know if it was an update that caused and subsequently
| resolved the issue, or something else I did.
|
| This was just one of many hair-pulling examples I ran into
| across KDE Plasma and Gnome on Fedora.
|
| I have different frustrations with both Windows and macOS.
| Dah00n wrote:
| I'm not disagreeing with your point, but I don't think
| those frustrations are comparable with advertising in the
| Start menu and file browser. I also find it funny that you
| mention problems with fonts as this is an area where I
| believe both Linux and macOS are ahead of Windows.
| bsder wrote:
| > I have different frustrations with both Windows and
| macOS.
|
| Agreed.
|
| However, I can continue to feed the Microsoft maw, or I can
| make a different choice. I choose to tell Microsoft to
| pound sand.
| eimrine wrote:
| Debian-based distribs are very beginner-friendly and Ubuntu's
| forum is full of helpful users.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Ubuntu was my pick, main reasom being that it is the distro
| Lenovo is offering and thus guaranteed to work with my
| Lenovo laptop. Agree on the usefull forums and information.
|
| No idea how it compares to other distros, I never tried
| any. It is a breath of fresh air compared to Windows 10 so!
| justinholt wrote:
| I think there'd be significant overlap with the folks that
| setup Windows 11 without a Microsoft Account and those that use
| tools like Open-Shell to rid themselves of some of these start
| menu "enhancements".
| andrewstuart wrote:
| Can you imagine being in the Windows product design meeting and
| someone says:
|
| "No means NO! The user did not activate their account and we
| should respect that not harass them!"
|
| Would never happen.
| wolpoli wrote:
| > "We are continuing the exploration of badging on the Start
| menu with several new treatments for users logging in with
| local user accounts to highlight the benefits of signing in
| with a Microsoft account (MSA)."
|
| Wow. Even the sentence itself is incredibly indirect and
| obfuscated. They aren't able to own it and say "We are
| exploring new ways to promote the benefits of signing in with a
| Microsoft account by adding badges to the Start menu for users
| logging in with local user accounts." or "We are adding badges
| to the Start menu to bug users with local user accounts to
| switch to a Microsoft account."
| MikusR wrote:
| They saw that Apple was doing it and nobody complained.
| adriancr wrote:
| You could set machines up for family that don't know better and
| they will see the popup and create the account themselves...
| same as with badgering for upgrades, had family that eventually
| upgraded by mistake then panick if/when things didnt work
| rootusrootus wrote:
| It made my day when my mother told me she was disposing of
| her desktop computer because she had transitioned all of her
| computing needs to her iPad. One less headache to deal with.
| mdavidn wrote:
| I wonder the same thing about the regular prompts to change my
| default search back to Bing, all disguised in language about
| optimizing Edge with recommended settings.
| izacus wrote:
| It's obvious what are they thinking:
|
| "This gives us conversions, this gives us money, what are you
| gonna do, pay 3000$ for a Mac?"
| JohnFen wrote:
| I don't think they'll get many conversions out of it. They're
| fishing in a pool that already actively signaled that they
| don't like the bait.
| dzader wrote:
| and it's a pool not paying them for services so they
| probably don't care about losing them.
| JohnFen wrote:
| So then why bother targeting them in the first place?
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| The thinking is that MS' needs come _first,_ and yours are
| way, way down the list, unless you 're a volume license
| holder. Whereby, you get an off switch.
|
| So the magnitude or logic of the gain doesn't factor much
| unless a policy hits the news with a stickiness of several
| months.
| INGSOCIALITE wrote:
| yup.
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| I'll install Linux or indeed buy a Mac instead moving
| forward.
| js8 wrote:
| Gonna move to Proton, thank you.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| I'll pay $0 and install Linux instead. I'll recommend it to
| others too.
|
| Hell I'll do literally anything in my power to run Linux,
| including reverse engineering Windows software. I refuse to
| accept ads in my OS.
| simooooo wrote:
| Running Active Directory would be easier than that
| Scarbutt wrote:
| $999 macbook air is perfectly usable?
| Kye wrote:
| With a 256GB SSD? Please.
|
| Some of us use computers for creative work and don't want
| to pay absurd markups for soldered on SSDs and RAM.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| Do what I did. Buy a xps 13 (dell has 'developer edition
| variants of these, so it fully supports linux). I
| actually bought the windows version because it was
| cheaper, instantly wiped it on boot and installed linux.
| I've upgraded to a 1tb ssd and might upgrade to a 2tb ssd
| given how cheap they are right now. Great experience
| though!
| Kye wrote:
| I need Serif (Affinity Suite), Ableton, Arturia, and
| Native Instruments to port everything to Linux or at
| least make it equally functional in Wine first. I could
| understand going to the trouble if I had anything
| remotely like the issues people say they have with
| Windows, but it's been an absolute breeze for me. Always
| has been. The few ad-ish things I see were trivial to
| remove. Staying on a local account was effortless.
| Updates need a reboot about as often as they did the last
| time I used Linux.
|
| There just...aren't any issues. I don't doubt that all
| these horror stories I hear are true for the individuals,
| but I just don't experience it.
| r00fus wrote:
| Yes, for most people it's fine. Cloud storage is a thing,
| and so is cheap external storage.
| Kye wrote:
| Well, they didn't qualify it that way. So no, it's not
| "perfectly usable." It's perfectly usable for people who
| don't do much with it. If I need a modern mainframe
| terminal, it barely matters what laptop or OS I use.
|
| If I need to hold 2TB of samples and have room for 2TB of
| video I'm working on and prefer it onboard, I can't get
| that at any price on a MacBook Air, and a soldered on 2TB
| is hundreds more than plopping a 2TB in my laptop's spare
| slot. In fact, I can max it out with 8TB storage and 64GB
| RAM for the markup to get a 2TB SSD/16GB RAM Air.
|
| You see the problem. I'm not saying everyone needs it,
| but the broad claim that a $999 Air is perfectly usable
| has some large and varied edge cases. If a $999 Air were
| enough for me, then I would have put a new battery in my
| old laptop and put Linux on it instead of upgrading.
| Apple's lineup was considered and dismissed for the
| absurd markups on storage and RAM.
| brewdad wrote:
| Most people who have need for that much laptop really
| need a desktop instead.
| [deleted]
| Twisell wrote:
| Well frankly it all depend on your job. I got a win10
| 256GB HP laptop at work and never felt fooled.
|
| Most of the files I need are never permanently stored on
| my laptop so I'm pretty glad IT prioritized a good
| Graphic Card that support my 4k monitor + 1 ext 1080p
| display of my home config on top of the internal 1080p.
|
| While yeah on my 7 years old personal mac laptop though,
| the 256Gb now seems limited because of my personal Photo
| Library. (Which is by the way the standard MacOS/iOS
| Photo library which is both available
| offline/synced/backed up using actually useful and
| configureable OS provided basic tools as opposed to
| adversial adware)
| cptskippy wrote:
| It works for Apple.
|
| You get a nice little upsell/upset every time you go into
| certain Apps. They call them "suggestions".
| bluedino wrote:
| I mean, maybe 0.01% of us will switch to Linux and WINE, and
| that will show them.
| DevKoala wrote:
| I installed Windows on my Steam Deck to run some games a couple
| weeks ago. It came pre-loaded with tons of apps I didn't request,
| and basic functionality that required me to sign in with an
| account. What a joke of an OS. I gave up, no game was worth the
| hassle.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| I hope the steamdecks popularity makes game companies think
| better of supporting photon out of the box or maybe even
| considering a pure linux target.
| brucethemoose2 wrote:
| I got served malware on APNews.com from an ad. Twice... from the
| _Associated Press Website_. And thats when I regretfuly had to
| turn on my adblocker there.
|
| Now _hopefully_ they aren 't 3rd party JavaScript ads (yet), but
| I still dont like the security implications of this.
| pbz wrote:
| These kinds of changes just make the OS look cheap (like a bazaar
| of sorts). They're visually ugly, but easily ignored (I rarely
| open the start menu).
|
| What I'm more concerned / annoyed by is the trend of Windows
| fighting with you. For example, try to disable the real-time
| antivirus protection. The UI makes it look like it's off, but
| then it turns back on by itself. Then you go to group policy to
| make it explicit that you don't want it. It's off for a bit and
| then it freaking changes the group policy (resets it back).
|
| First time I noticed it do this I though I got hacked because I
| couldn't imagine the OS doing something so malware-ish, but it
| does. What's the point of having a setting at all?
| hef19898 wrote:
| Maybe time fro another, huge, anti-competitive fie from the EU,
| like when back when MS did all those shenanigans around
| internet Explorer? I wouldn't be surprised of we see similar
| proceedings in the next years around cloud services (everything
| from OneDrive to Azure and equivilants, Office, you name it)
| once the EU is done with mobile devices.
| yarg wrote:
| I tried to play spider solitaire not too long ago.
|
| It used to be a clean simple application, now it's adware -
| literal adware in the professional version of a non-free OS.
|
| Utter fucking madness.
|
| I quit in disgust and had another go at Tumbleweed.
|
| Windows 11 made KDE better.
| ThatMedicIsASpy wrote:
| Valve (Steam Deck) using it and paying devs to fix things
| also helps.
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| It is cheap.
|
| It's a neglected heap of legacy garbage, maintained just
| superficially enough to maintain profitability from its
| inertial marketshare (i.e., how everything runs on it already
| and how it's a massive coordinate problem to ever change that).
|
| The KDE Dolphin file manager is way better than Explorer,
| feature-wise, and has been for probably over a decade. Dolphin
| was made for free by like five Dutch guys. Explorer is from a
| multi-billion dollar corporation that's buying every service
| and other company you know. I guess it's not profitable to
| improve user UX, so you have ridiculous artifacts like how much
| Explorer still sucks and how long it's sucked. :D (I think it
| only got a dark theme, like... 5 years ago? Linux file managers
| have had those for decades.)
|
| If you're lucky enough to experience a change in your priority
| matrix such that things Windows is bad at (like programming)
| become more salient to your well-being than things Windows is
| good at (like playing AAA games), I recommend trying Linux
| (shout out to Manjaro) out. I'm glad I experienced that change,
| allowing me to flee to Linux and never look back.
| twelve40 wrote:
| this is a useful reminder for all the optimistic people who are
| dreaming that MS will take over web search to liberate us from
| Google ads.
| Wensio wrote:
| My computer was so old that I was able to log in on a local user
| account. After I upgraded, I couldnt believe that I had to stay
| online to use my computer. I messed with some settings and moved
| on. Then I right clicked and almost had a stroke.
| acadapter wrote:
| There is no point in fighting against BS. It needs to be
| abandoned like many people did with Facebook.
| JohnFen wrote:
| I abandoned Windows on my own machines over 20 years ago.
| Sadly, however, I'm still forced to use it at work. If I could
| abandon it there, too, I would in a heartbeat.
| Animats wrote:
| I left at Windows 7, Microsoft's last good operating system.
|
| Amusingly, I have a product which runs on Windows. I develop
| it on Linux, cross-compile in Rust, and test and package
| using Wine. Works fine, with no need to run Windows myself.
|
| Now if I can get the cross-compile to work for MacOS...
| mattferderer wrote:
| Microsoft would be wise to focus on quality of service,
| especially now with their Open AI partnership.
|
| Make me more productive & I'll gladly go find how I can upgrade
| my Microsoft services when I need to, no ads needed that add
| negativity to my opinion of Microsoft.
|
| Same with their Bing division, which was mentioned yesterday
| somewhat on the terrible decision of forcing people to view awful
| clickbait, low quality news articles. How about find out what
| someone is interested in first, then show information that is top
| quality only. Why a company like Microsoft is wanting to hang out
| in the gutters with low quality journalism stories is beyond
| me... Is the ad revenue worth tarnishing your brand & pushing
| people away?
|
| Create value for me & I'll give you way more of my data than I
| should.
| FloatArtifact wrote:
| It's important to me the distinction that it's ads for Microsoft
| services. I dislike that as much as anyone else who hates ads,
| but it is distinctly different than just general advertising.
| anshumankmr wrote:
| That is (sort of) the status quo bias fallacy
| bhouston wrote:
| It is still mental and visual pollution. I switched from
| Windows to MacOS 2 years ago after being a long Windows holdout
| and damn, MacOS is nice and the Mx series of CPUs/GPUs are also
| incredibly fine.
| FloatArtifact wrote:
| I agree about the mental and visual pollution.
| snarfy wrote:
| Pollution is a nice way to put it. I prefer phrases such as
| 'cognitive assault', 'mental violence' and 'attention
| rape'. I really hate advertisement in all forms.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| Apple's products aren't perfect at this either, but they're
| at least _much_ easier to control. You basically just have to
| disable notification permission for TV. News is spammy also,
| but not strictly advertising Apple's junk, it's just regular
| attention spam.
|
| Meanwhile in the App Store guidelines:
|
| > 4.5.4 Push Notifications must not be required for the app
| to function, and should not be used to send sensitive
| personal or confidential information. _Push Notifications
| should not be used for promotions or direct marketing
| purposes_ unless customers have explicitly opted in to
| receive them via consent language displayed in your app's UI,
| and you provide a method in your app for a user to opt out
| from receiving such messages. Abuse of these services may
| result in revocation of your privileges.
|
| Not a great look, and it tells you that Apple is willing to
| compromise on their principles to make a buck. Here's hoping
| your privacy isn't worth selling out too.
|
| Windows is cramming their tabloid-news-by-MSN into the
| operating system in multiple places and making it a lot
| harder to get rid of, so for now macOS is still the better of
| the two. But I'm not happy with either of them.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > Not a great look, and it tells you that Apple is willing
| to compromise on their principles to make a buck.
|
| I think they're holding a good balance here. For example, I
| do enjoy an alert from the burger slinger down the road
| when they put up a sale - but I had the choice between
| opting in or not.
|
| Meanwhile, on Android you don't have the choice, all you
| can do is mute notifications from that app in the future
| (and lose out on _important_ notifications) or remove it
| entirely.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| If TV wanted to send notifications for new things that I
| have access to, that could be helpful. Like the "New
| music from artists you follow" that Music does. Sending
| notifications for things that require you to sign up for
| a subscription is unsolicited marketing and I'd rather
| they didn't spam notifications for that, in accordance
| with the policies that they make everyone else on their
| platform follow.
|
| One thing I wish Apple would copy from Android is having
| apps categorize their different types of notifications
| and let you turn them on and off individually. And then
| enforce that in the App Store review. I don't need Uber
| to send me Uber Eats offers, but I don't want to block
| useful notifications by turning all of them off.
|
| They recently added a "time sensitive" categorization
| that you can let break through Focus Mode rules, but IMO
| that's not granular enough.
|
| https://developer.android.com/develop/ui/views/notificati
| ons...
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| AniseAbyss wrote:
| [dead]
| [deleted]
| joering2 wrote:
| 99% of my problems with Windows 10 and 11 ended up the moment I
| install simplewall. Nowadays they even have option to block
| future updates. Kudos to Henry for a great piece of software, as
| I do donate $100 once a year for all the time he saved me on
| dealing with BS operating system. (totally unrelated and don't
| know him)
|
| https://www.henrypp.org/product/simplewall
|
| one more tip re W11: when you installing fresh copy, go for
| offline option (no MS account) - you can find online manual on
| how to enable it. Your Windows will look totally different and
| work faster if you go with offline version (MS assumes its a
| computer without network access)
| tacker2000 wrote:
| At this point Windows is just Malware. You dont have any control
| over anything anymore, it keeps switching things back, force-
| logging you in etc...
| szundi wrote:
| These leadership there will go until they hit the wall. Mr Cook
| is happy having an OS that just lets you work.
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| In 2025, Microsoft will own search and Google will own the
| desktop OS
| raffraffraff wrote:
| I really really wish Affinity Photo (and publisher and designer)
| worked ok in Wine. I think maybe they'll work better in a year,
| but right now you need a patched wine, a chunk of a Windows
| machine and you still have to out up with crashing.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Doesn't Microsoft have enough money?
| runjake wrote:
| I wonder if all this advertising is some way to help justify the
| costs of continued development of Windows?
|
| From what I've heard, it's not a cash cow anymore.
|
| Anyone have any insight?
| debug-desperado wrote:
| Microsoft Edge just created a logged-in profile on my machine for
| the second time. I'm not even sure how - maybe it's because I
| logged into Bing to play with their chat? I'm on a Windows 10
| Local account and this is getting old.
|
| EDIT, think I finally found out the option under Profile
| Preferences:
|
| "Automatic sign in on Microsoft Edge
|
| If you're not signed in currently on Microsoft Edge, we'll
| automatically sign you in by using your sign in info from other
| Microsoft sites like Outlook."
| bsnnkv wrote:
| This is pretty depressing. I'm pretty involved in the ricing side
| of the Windows ecosystem[1] and there is a lot of work going on
| in this space to allow users to get rid of the start bar entirely
| and replace it with something more functional. I would love for
| the day when there could just be a user friendly drop-in
| replacement.
|
| [1]: I develop one of the two main Windows twms
| (https://github.com/LGUG2Z/komorebi)
| EntropyDenied wrote:
| Do people not realize how easy these are to turn off? I've been
| running Windows 11 for over a year and haven't seen a single ad.
| barbazoo wrote:
| Pretty annoying how everyone chooses outrage instead.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| How about supporting microsoft with ad dollars being OPT-IN
| not OPT-OUT.
| barbazoo wrote:
| That would be nice, sure, but not a big deal I think
| either.
| softfalcon wrote:
| I shouldn't have to "turn off" ads in the first place.
|
| Why am I paying $100+ for Windows Pro if they're still gonna
| plop ads onto my desktop by default?
| glonq wrote:
| I am confident that somebody will very quickly produce tools for
| disabling these ads. In fact, _thanks in advance!_
| AraceliHarker wrote:
| If you've been following Windows 11 since the first leaks, you'll
| know that during beta testing, a glitch on the server side that
| Microsoft used to deliver ads to Windows made the shell
| unresponsive. Ads in Windows 11 aren't just an eyesore, they're
| also a source of glitches.
| toddmorey wrote:
| Inception: I couldn't really see the image about too many ads in
| Windows 11 because TechRadar had it all covered up with an Axe
| Body Spray ad.
| izzydata wrote:
| There was a giant popup as soon as I loaded the page. This is
| after using ad removal extensions. Ads are out of control.
|
| https://i.imgur.com/KOU98Bw.png
| dahwolf wrote:
| Old Microsoft is back, unashamed to aggressively push their own
| services from a still monopolistic platform. What this tells us
| is that tech regulation is a joke, fallen asleep.
|
| They were fined for this exact practice a long time ago. To
| simply do it again in this fearless way is really telling.
| They're confident that they can get away with it.
| gumballindie wrote:
| Move over to linux. KDE has the eye-candy, XFCE has the
| simplicity and OpenBOX is distraction free. Games work well and
| so do dev tools.
| hackinthebochs wrote:
| Are fonts still ugly as sin? That was the biggest drawback last
| time I tried linux as my main desktop. That and having to muck
| around in config files for every little thing.
| gumballindie wrote:
| I use linux mint and everything works like a charm. Fonts are
| cool too in KDE. You can download macos fonts as well from
| apple's website. It really has come a long way. I am amazed
| by it.
| blibble wrote:
| the hinting patents expired a long time ago
| JohnFen wrote:
| The font situation is (in my opinion) fixed -- but this is
| more about the DE than Linux itself, so may depend on which
| DE you choose. And you haven't had to muck around in config
| files for a very long time (unless you're doing something
| exotic).
| hollandheese wrote:
| Fonts have looked better in Linux than Windows for over 15
| years now.
| rimunroe wrote:
| I wish I could find a screenshot of it, but I believe the
| default Arabic font in Ubuntu ~10 years ago was pretty
| horrendous, whereas Windows had a much more reasonable one.
| genpfault wrote:
| Sadly something in the last few years knackered the kerning
| on stuff like Tahoma :(
| doodlesdev wrote:
| Depends on when you tried it and what you mean by them being
| ugly. I personally prefer fonts and font rendering in GNOME
| over Windows nowadays, specially in high-ish dpi displays. I
| haven't opened a single config file since installing Fedora
| on my machine last year (except for vimrc, emacs.d, etc.),
| although if you are a power user you might have to play with
| some CLI once in a while. Selection of distribution and
| desktop environment is everything, it makes or breaks your
| Linux experience so take a look around and maybe live boot
| one through a USB drive to see if ticks your fancies.
| neogodless wrote:
| What's the best distribution to get "all your modern hardware
| works out of the box" alongside KDE (which I like a lot better
| than GNOME or Cinnamon)?
|
| I used Linux Mint, added KDE, but had issues[0] that were
| showstoppers. Everyone blamed my Nvidia GPU, but that's what my
| laptop has and it would be very expensive to replace with a
| comparable all-AMD gaming laptop.
|
| As a "non-expert" Linux user, deciphering the distribution
| decoder cards has been difficult. Maybe I want newer kernels
| for better hardware support, but rolling releases mean dealing
| with more bugs?
|
| [0] Loss of brightness controls, frequent hangs on booting,
| many games worked great, but a few were very bad. Long-form -
| https://www.retorch.com/blog/linux-mint.htm
| agentdrtran wrote:
| > Games work well
|
| come on now
| doodlesdev wrote:
| They do. I use Linux exclusively recently and in the last
| year I played:
|
| - Slime Rancher
|
| - Stanley Parable
|
| - Fallout 3, New Vegas, 4
|
| - The Forest
|
| - Counter Strike
|
| - Heavily modded Minecraft
|
| - Arma 3
|
| - Insurgency
|
| - Insurgency: Sandstorm
|
| - Squad
|
| - Red Dead Redemption 2
|
| - The Witcher 3
|
| - Kerbal Space Program
|
| - Papers, Please
|
| - DOOM
|
| - My Summer Car
|
| - Portal 2
|
| - Others I don't remember
|
| The number of games that don't work on Linux is shrinking
| every day, DXVK and Wine are getting way too good. Take a
| look at proton DB for reference on compatibility [0]. You can
| input your Steam profile and it will show you how many of
| your games are playable and in what state. Currently in the
| Top 100 played games on Steam 78% of them are rated either
| Platinum or Gold. In the top 1000 that drops a bit to 75%,
| with only 3% of them being unplayable.
|
| Oh yeah and all the games I've listed I played on Wayland
| (except the competitive shooters) :)
|
| [0]: https://www.protondb.com/
| gumballindie wrote:
| I play on my desktop and laptop and all my steam games run
| well, battle.net too. EA is the only that sucks. Cyberpunk,
| and other demanding titles. Really, not a single issue. I
| wanted to try linux as a desktop a few times but now it's
| finally rather stable.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Games work well...kind of
| ziml77 wrote:
| How's HDR working over there?
| gumballindie wrote:
| Not ideal but my dual alienware setup looks stunning. A lot
| better than the ugly windows desktop i used to play games on
| and a lot more permissive than a mac.
| [deleted]
| rwl4 wrote:
| It's coming along. Valve's gamescope has initial support
| implemented.
|
| https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/HDR_monitor_support
| criddell wrote:
| And most distributions have the permissions structure of, well,
| 1980's Unix.
|
| I know it's being worked on, but it's a little crazy to think
| that on most Linux systems you still don't get a permissions
| popup when your calculator app wants to turn on your
| microphone. You can't grant access to your contacts or email on
| an app-by-app basis.
|
| I say most because it has been largely solved on Android, for
| example.
| harvey9 wrote:
| Access to contacts seems like something that would be handled
| by the likes of owncloud.
| gumballindie wrote:
| This is crazy. Each day i find new tools and apps. Thanks
| for sharing owncloud.
| m4lvin wrote:
| Might as well jump to Nextcloud then :-)
| gumballindie wrote:
| All setup and running. Works a treat. But will try
| owncloud as well. I mean it's linux, it will take a few
| minutes to install anyway.
| doodlesdev wrote:
| You can use Flatpaks to basically solve this issue. Most
| applications nowadays are already available as Flatpaks, the
| ones that aren't probably have been reviewed by your
| distribution. Stick to official repositories and there
| shouldn't be any worries really. Of course for the average
| user this kind of discipline might be impossible, but for
| power-users out there: https://firejail.wordpress.com/
|
| You could also play a bit with writing SELinux or AppArmor
| policies, although I grant that most people don't give a fuck
| and just want to get their computing done.
|
| Opting for a Wayland-compliant display server instead of XOrg
| will also provide you with similar benefits such as
| preventing applications from capturing your key-presses
| without you knowing or recording your screen without your
| permission.
|
| edit: I have no idea how I forgot about this, but immutable
| file systems are a thing now and they work pretty well, you
| can go for something such as Fedora Kinoite [0], Fedora
| Silverblue [1][2], OpenSUSE MicroOS [3], or VanillaOS [4]
| where all applications you install will be Flatpaks.
|
| [0]: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/emerging/
|
| [1]: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-silverblue/
|
| [2]: https://silverblue.fedoraproject.org/
|
| [3]: https://microos.opensuse.org/
|
| [4]: https://vanillaos.org/
| criddell wrote:
| The kernel APIs may also need updates. You shouldn't be
| able to open a device or file without a security token.
| tapoxi wrote:
| Flatpaks support this through XDG Portals, and Flatpaks are
| cross-distribution. They aren't the native build artifact of
| most applications though, and are packaged by the community.
| KZerda wrote:
| Apps still work horribly in Linux. Gimp still pales to
| Photoshop, Lightroom's still better than Darktable, etc. Same
| goes for video, audio, etc.
| gumballindie wrote:
| Correct but thats not linux that's the app vendors. There are
| web based alternatives for some and considering webgpu is
| becoming a thing there will more available in the browser
| soon.
| KZerda wrote:
| The apps are the ecosystem. If people can't run the
| programs they need to actually do things with their
| computers, then all the technical benefits in the world are
| useless. It was the biggest problem 20 years ago with
| Linux, and is the biggest problem now.
| gumballindie wrote:
| Depends on your use case. For me it works absolutely
| fine.
| oogabooga13 wrote:
| The assault on the Start Menu continues as planned...
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| The only thing I need windows for now is to sign contracts, that
| come in PDF form. I have a laptop with windows 11 for that kind
| of stuff.
|
| Is there any software in linux that can insert my signature in a
| PDF, like adobes "fill & sign"?
| lesquivemeau wrote:
| I wish there was a linux app as intuitive as Mac os's stock pdf
| viewer/editor, it's as good as it gets when it comes to signing
| and reorganising documents
| Svip wrote:
| If all you need is to insert an image of your signature onto a
| PDF, you can use Xournal.[0]
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xournal
| mihaaly wrote:
| I am already hanging on a thread about the user hostile ignorant
| practices making Windows acceleratingly worse working with.
| Introducing advertisements into an expensive, eroding usability,
| arrogantly formated system may tip me over if adverts are not
| easily and permanently avoidable. Will I need to give up my job
| as developer on Windows platform? It does not worth my health the
| rapidly increasing frustration and anxiety its everyday use
| causes. I will study the situation very closely and decide upon
| if I need to seek a different occupation soon. I only have this
| one life and I do not want to suffer through of it.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| remember when you paid for software to get rid of the ads?
| mperham wrote:
| Ironic that the techradar article is also chock full of ad
| cancer. Doctor, cure thyself!
| dzader wrote:
| Apple music popping up everytime I accidentally hit play on my
| keyboard is a far more annoying ad than anything windows is
| doing.
| wiredfool wrote:
| Half the time I use that key to stop my music, teams randomly
| calls someone.
|
| The play/pause keys should work with any media player, (and
| might, or might not) but they're in no way advertising random
| crap on your face when you're trying to work.
| its_ethan wrote:
| https://github.com/tombonez/noTunes
| liendolucas wrote:
| Sometimes I feel so damn lucky that I use an OS like FreeBSD (or
| alternatively GNU/Linux when working) where literally nothing
| gets in your way. It's ridiculous that a paying product stamps
| ads in front of your face just like that.
|
| I really feel sorry for the people that are not techies that then
| they just get hit by the next furious wave of ads when they
| proceed to browse the web, without installing any browsing
| counter-measures.
|
| When I go back in time in my mind and remember the old days where
| I played on Windows 95/98/XP platforms, those were damn clean
| OSes by today standards. I can't understand how they have gone
| this way and ruined what is supposed to be their flagship
| product.
| marcodiego wrote:
| Windows users went through ME, Vista, 8... I'm sure they can
| handle ads.
| pwinnski wrote:
| Most people will sign up for a Microsoft account, or already
| have, and so won't even see these ads.
|
| But let's say you use Microsoft Windows, but don't want a
| Microsoft account. You're going to leave Windows over this? And
| go where?
|
| Wait, is 2023 the fabled Year of Linux on the Desktop, at long
| last?
|
| I haven't used Windows in many years, and I'm not trying to
| defend Microsoft here. Still, the framing of this piece seems
| silly. Very rarely is any single thing reason enough for the
| average person to completely switch operating systems. The cost
| of switching is too high.
| belter wrote:
| The Desktop Experience on Linux is years ahead of Windows. Only
| users who have to use apps non available on Mac or Linux use
| Windows.
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| > The Desktop Experience on Linux is years ahead of Windows
|
| _[citation needed]_
|
| And is also relevant:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35325280
| belter wrote:
| Better than citation, it's beautiful:
| https://youtu.be/7JJmCAJs9pM
| pwinnski wrote:
| Of course! I don't disagree. And yet here we are at 69.43%
| desktop market share[0] for Windows for March 2023, decades
| after I started hearing about how this year, for sure, was
| going to be the Year Of Linux On The Desktop(tm).
|
| Most people don't seem to be using the best possible desktop
| experience. Their desktop is decided by an employer, or
| whatever is pre-installed, or who knows what. But an ad in
| the start menu doesn't seem like it's likely to budge that
| number much.
|
| 0. https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-
| share/desktop/worldwide...
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