[HN Gopher] VW, Rivian, Nissan, BMW lose access to U.S. EV tax c...
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VW, Rivian, Nissan, BMW lose access to U.S. EV tax credits
Author : rexreed
Score : 69 points
Date : 2023-04-17 16:52 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (finance.yahoo.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (finance.yahoo.com)
| hinata08 wrote:
| I don't get why we need to work with the USA anyway.
|
| There is already business to do with the middle east and south
| east Asia.
|
| USA doesn't want European companies anyway. They have the FCPA
| that only applies to European companies, unique bumper
| regulations for cars (but no amber turn indicator and unlimited
| consumption), the buy American act.
|
| We should stop wasting time selling stuff to them, as they don't
| want. And we should stop relying on American companies like
| Microsoft or Apple, ad they don't like business.
|
| Oh, and cut them off from international banking. They want to
| clamp down on tax haven. And well, states like Delaware are the
| world's best tax haven. If the laws were consistent, we should
| cut them off.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| How does FCPA only apply to European companies? (it doesn't)
| eganist wrote:
| > Oh, and cut them off from international banking.
|
| How do you propose?
| hinata08 wrote:
| The OECD had a list of List of Unco-operative Tax Havens,
| that used to contain several European nations.
|
| List Deleware on this
| standardUser wrote:
| I hate to see the Nissan Leaf lose an incentive because I still
| think it's the most accessible name brand EV on the market. I
| imagine the Chinese part of the supply chain is what keeps Leaf's
| so cheap. And though I do mostly support efforts to grow the EV
| industry in the US, I care a lot more about ending the sale of
| new IC cars.
| local_crmdgeon wrote:
| What does the Leaf have that the Bolt doesn't? The Bolt uses a
| standard charge port, is larger, has superior range, and has
| active battery thermal mgmt.
| standardUser wrote:
| I was going to say price, but apparently that is no longer
| the case after some serious price cuts to the Bolt!
|
| Long live the Bolt.
| mikestew wrote:
| _What does the Leaf have that the Bolt doesn 't?_
|
| CarPlay: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35573345
|
| It's why we bought a Hyundai instead of waiting for an EV
| Chevy Blazer.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| The Bolt has CarPlay, the Chevy Blazer isn't even out yet.
| [deleted]
| local_crmdgeon wrote:
| The Bolt has wireless CarPlay and Qi charging
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I still would not buy it just to avoid giving money to GM
| due to their stance on Carplay/Android Auto.
| hedora wrote:
| It's not a GM product.
| tomcar288 wrote:
| Yup. Nissan Leaf, chevy bolt and upcoming equinox EV are my
| preferred purchases. I will never buy another IC car again.
| hunglee2 wrote:
| Collateral damage of hostile de-globalisation. European, South
| Korean and Japanese EV manufacturers face a de facto lock out of
| US market. Outcompeted already in China, there may not be many
| other obvious markets to go
| marianatom wrote:
| "The rules are aimed at weaning the United States off
| dependence on China for EV battery supply chains and are part
| of President Joe Biden's effort to make 50% of U.S. new vehicle
| sales by 2030 EVs or PHEVs."
|
| Japanese and European car manufacturers can just source
| batteries from somewhere else other than China, then problem
| solved. Car/electronics manufacturers are already moving out of
| China at a rapid pace this year anyways. According to the
| office for national statistics in China, for jan/feb of 2023 ht
| tp://www.ce.cn/xwzx/gnsz/gdxw/202303/27/t20230327_38464161...,
| electronics manufacturing profits is down 71% and car
| manufacturing profits is down 41.7%, due to slacking demand.
| Smart to move sourcing early anyways, it looks like China is
| starting to be confirmed to help Russia militarily
| https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-says-it-is-find...
|
| Actually, it would appear that Chinese EV manufacturers have
| not much place to go. EV market in China peaked at 2021. With
| regards to Europe, BYD only sold tens(!!) of cars in Germany in
| 2023, compared to thousands of Tesla cars sold.
| alistairSH wrote:
| _Japanese and European car manufacturers can just source
| batteries from somewhere else other than China, then problem
| solved._
|
| I believe the regulations explicitly call for a % of battery
| components to be US/NA-sourced. So, it's not just "ditch
| China" but also "buy American."
| marianatom wrote:
| You're making money off Americans. Giving some investments
| to create jobs for Americans make sense. Henry Ford
| famously overpaid his workers to create demand for his cars
| https://www.npr.org/2014/01/27/267145552/the-middle-class-
| to...
| mikestew wrote:
| The link you supplied belies the myth that Ford paid his
| workers such that they could buy his cars. Ford paid his
| workers what he did so that he could get more reliable,
| productive workers.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| There's no EV battery supply chain in the US, just like
| there's no real solar supply chain.
|
| You can't just snap your fingers and say "OK, subsidies only
| for US made batteries!" when there is little industry and
| ramping it up would take many years.
|
| The policy is just a way of "soft" killing the subsidies.
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| The reality is that if USA can't produce a majority of EV
| batteries itself then there will never be any serious reduction
| of investment in gasoline engines since it will pretty much be
| required for national security reasons.
|
| Same reasons it's presently in the process of basically
| relocating TSMC to Arizona.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| > Same reasons it's presently in the process of basically
| relocating TSMC to Arizona.
|
| Right as the global semiconductor market implodes because
| demand has shrunk while production has recovered.
|
| There is a snowball's chance in hell that the US
| semiconductor factories will be able to turn a profit; they
| will likely shut down quickly, if they ever open. They'll be
| partially built, just enough to claim the grants and tax
| breaks...and then rot.
|
| It's just yet another policy that throws tanker-trucks full
| of cash at the already unfathomably wealthy with little
| accountability and zero expectation of payback (either real
| or in terms of ancillary benefits to society) while the
| poorest Americans have to file reams of paperwork just to be
| able to get basic assistance for things like eating and
| healthcare.
| Vrondi wrote:
| They aren't moving to Arizona to produce profit. They are
| moving to Arizona to keep the US military from being
| crippled if China takes over Taiwan.
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| nah this is different because USA has no interest in
| fighting China over Taiwan. But it also can't have the
| microchip supply chain cut off. Hence, relocating Taiwan's
| most valuable assets to Arizona before the war starts.
| vkou wrote:
| That's always been the gameplan for free trade. Open markets
| where your country has a competitive advantage, subsidies and
| tariffs and closed markets when it doesn't.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| We gave China free access to our markets for _decades_.
| China, in turn, has _never_ given any foreign entity free
| access to their market, not without paying bribes at least.
| You always have to have majority Chinese ownership in your
| joint company.
|
| It's not surprising that the US and EU are slowly waking up
| to just how bad of a clusterfuck they maneuvered themselves
| into and starting to cut out toxic dependencies.
| vkou wrote:
| > We gave China free access to our markets for decades.
|
| I comment about the nature of 'free markets' in the general
| (but more specifically in the context of 'peer'-nation
| trade between the context of US-EU), and someone inevitably
| jumps in with an off-topic gripe about China.
|
| China this, China that, it's like Beelzebub. Say the word
| 'trade' three times, and the thread's in for a derailment.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > I comment about the nature of 'free markets' in the
| general (and especially in the context of US-EU), and
| someone inevitably jumps in with an off-topic gripe about
| China.
|
| We are talking about the US sanctioning Chinese battery
| supply chains specifically, to quote TFA:
|
| > The rules are aimed at weaning the United States off
| dependence on China for EV battery supply chains and are
| part of President Joe Biden's effort to make 50% of U.S.
| new vehicle sales by 2030 EVs or PHEVs.
| vkou wrote:
| > The law, enacted in August, required vehicles to be
| assembled in North America to qualify for any tax
| credits, _eliminating nearly 70% of eligible models at
| the time_. On Jan. 1, new price caps and limits on buyers
| income took effect.
|
| > The IRA requires that _50% of the value of battery
| components be produced or assembled in North America to
| qualify for $3,750_ , and that 40% of the value of
| critical minerals be sourced from the United States or a
| free trade partner for a $3,750 credit.
|
| The battery sourcing requirement means that 'China' is
| only relevant to a small portion of this question, but
| makes for a great distraction.
| [deleted]
| mschuster91 wrote:
| Indeed. I didn't notice this on the first read of the
| article because I didn't notice the "Show more" button -
| seriously, WTF is this crap news sites tend to pull? I
| get it on content container / teaser pages, but an
| article page?!
|
| In any case: nothing stops foreign car makers from coming
| back to Detroit or whatever and producing cars there. BMW
| at least has a decent presence in Spartanburg, not sure
| about the others - but Tesla has shown that this model
| can work, their first plant in Fremont was a retooled
| GM/Toyota plant.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _European, South Korean and Japanese EV manufacturers face a
| de facto lock out of US market_
|
| The White House is bending over backwards to include allied
| supply chains [1].
|
| [1] https://www.politico.com/newsletters/weekly-
| trade/2023/04/03...
| pornel wrote:
| Do these incentives actually make any difference to
| manufacturers? AFAIK they're all selling the cars as fast as they
| can make them.
| mikestew wrote:
| Bought a new Hyundai Ioniq 5 on Friday. No EV tax credit for that
| one, but...fleet purchases still qualify regardless of make, and
| your company can buy as many as they like (that's my
| understanding, and probably not 100% correct). The outcome is
| that Hyundai buys the car, takes the EV tax credit off the price,
| then turns around and leases it to us. So despite the Ioniq 5 not
| qualifying for the credit, we got the credit in a more roundabout
| way (or arguably _less_ roundabout, as I don 't have to deal with
| it at tax time).
|
| In summary, lease the Hyundai and get $7500 taken off the price,
| then buy out the lease after the first payment[0]. I'm not sure
| when this deal ends, maybe May? (And if you're buying a Hyundai,
| Hyundai calls it a "lease rebate", but they're really just giving
| you the tax credit that Hyundai receives.)
|
| Point I'm driving at is maybe there's yet another hooping-jumping
| method to squeeze out a tax credit?
|
| EDIT: what I'm referring to is lightly referenced at the end of
| TFA: _" Treasury in December said EVs ineligible for the $7,500
| consumer tax credit could qualify for a commercial leasing $7,500
| credit."_
|
| [0] We were going to pay cash anyway, but it is my understanding
| that you can still get a bank loan to buy out the lease. See your
| dealer, bank, and Reddit for details.
| greeneggs wrote:
| I don't understand why everyone doesn't do this. I'd buy a
| Tesla if I could get a $7500 credit (I'm income limited).
| HDThoreaun wrote:
| you can
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| T recently dropped their prices as well.
| mabbo wrote:
| A bit off topic, but how are you liking the Ioniq 5?
|
| I'm on a "2 year waiting list" with my local dealer for an
| Ioniq 5. It has 200 people on the list, and he got 8 years in
| the last year. Still a "2 year waiting list" though, even if
| you've been on it a year already.
|
| It's apparently quite a popular car.
| mikestew wrote:
| My sympathies to our brothers and sisters in Canuckistan on
| their wait times. I won't tell you how many were on the lot
| of the dealer we purchased from. They even had Ioniq 6s just
| off the truck.
|
| Anyway, we've had it since Friday, and I would highly
| recommend the car. Now, we came off a 12 year old Leaf, so
| perhaps we're easily impressed. But for us it hit the
| price/feature crossover point that we were willing to pay.
| Looked at Audi, BMW, MB, but those seemed to be priced _just_
| above what we were willing to pay for the features we wanted.
| Tesla was off the table for reasons (and I find the seats
| uncomfy). VW: "too plasticy", sez the spouse and too big sez
| me. Was going to wait on 2024 Chevy (probably Blazer), but no
| CarPlay. Didn't want another Leaf, and the new Nissan EV
| crossover is aesthetically unappealing (and frankly, wasn't
| all that impressed with Nissan). And so it was Hyundai's sale
| to lose.
|
| I'll start with the bad, especially for the PNW: did you
| seriously think this thing didn't need a rear wiper, Hyundai?
| Well, it desperately does. And we have to back into the
| garage to charge because the port is on passenger rear,
| instead of up front and center like the Leaf. Given our
| garage and public charger layout, a centrally-located front
| charging port seems to make more sense. If I get ambitious,
| maybe I'll move the charger some weekend.
|
| Other than that, can't say enough good things about it (top-
| trim Limited w/AWD). Seats are super comfy, plenty of
| headroom for a 6'/183cm person. Build quality seems solid.
| I've owned sports cars over the years, and currently ride a
| powerful motorcycle, so "fun to drive" is a high bar for me,
| and the Ioniq does NOT go over that bar. It's a heavy
| grocery-getter. That said, for a heavy grocery-getter, it's
| kind of impressive. Of course it has the tons of torque from
| the electric motors, and 330bhp to match, so it most
| certainly gets out of its own way in a hurry. I tried to
| upset the tires on a damp road uphill on some corners, and
| the AWD keeps things planted. It's still new, though, and I
| wasn't giving it 100% effort to try and land in the ditch.
| :-) So maybe not "fun to drive", but certainly "puts a smile
| on your face".
|
| All kinds of niceties that I won't go into, but it feels like
| Hyundai tried really hard to put some "luxury" in their
| otherwise kinda cheap cars. It's a little plasticy in spots,
| but doesn't feel as cheap as some other brands (see: VW
| above). I can see us easily being happy with it for at least
| the 12 years that we put on the Leaf.
|
| In summary, we've kept an eye out for a Leaf replacement for
| the last couple of years, and I think Hyundai has a hit on
| their hands.
| WorldMaker wrote:
| A 2-year waiting list may also indicate a bad local dealer
| that isn't even trying to sell the car as much as or more
| than it indicates a popular car. Only getting 8 cars in the
| last year sounds _maybe_ like a choice to have as low of
| stock as possible in the dealership as much as it sounds like
| a supply issue. You may want to consider checking neighboring
| dealerships if the waiting list is not shrinking on a car
| that has been out in mass production for as long as the Ioniq
| 5 has been.
| mikestew wrote:
| My assumption is the OP is in Canada, where various online
| forums seem to indicate that this is the way it is for the
| whole country. But, yeah, if OP is in the U. S., look
| elsewhere. There are dealers in Seattle with rows of them.
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| My 92-year-old granddad is a car enthusiast and he is
| waffling about going in on the waiting list because he really
| likes the car but doesn't know if he will live long enough to
| accept delivery.
|
| After reading this it may sound like I am either trolling or
| astroturfing but I guess like all other turfers I tell you I
| am 100% legit. It was really funny after he made me watch
| about 30 minutes of YouTube reviews on the car for him to say
| the punchline...
| gaoshan wrote:
| The price of EVs is the only thing keeping me from replacing my
| 13 year old car. Everything I would consider buying is just
| slightly too high for my budget and needs.
| rnk wrote:
| gm bolt?
| ActorNightly wrote:
| Its still a 27k car. You get more with a gas car at that
| price range.
|
| EVs are purely novelty item at this point. An EV vehicle is
| fundamentally simpler than a gas car in terms of parts
| required, and should be cheaper to make and way cheaper to
| buy new.
|
| Also you would see way more functional tech in regards to EV,
| like for example, cheaper battery packs that don't offer as
| much range and are power limited, but keep the price low. Or
| trunk mounted gas generators with fuel tanks for longer
| trips.
| [deleted]
| hedora wrote:
| The total cost of ownership is much lower for EVs than gas
| cars though.
|
| I just spent over $100 filling up the gas tank of our
| backup car. We used to fill it about once a week. That's
| $5200 a year in gasoline at current prices. So, if the EV
| lasts 6 years (ignoring the discounted value of money over
| time, and the ever increasing cost of gasoline), it costs
| negative $4200 vs. whatever the retail price of the ICE car
| is.
| [deleted]
| robertlagrant wrote:
| That's only if you fill up once a week. Anyone who does
| some remote working or any of a number of other
| mitigations is going to find an EV very expensive.
|
| Which is annoying, because I want one.
| WorldMaker wrote:
| If you are filling up less than once a week/once every
| two weeks you are risking stale gas and extra wear and
| tear on an internal combustion engine when you do use it,
| generally increasing the risk of expensive maintenance
| and still much higher TCO.
|
| For a remote worker with a vehicle that moves irregularly
| an EV is still cheaper and easier and more convenient. A
| battery charge doesn't "go stale" and you aren't going to
| get engine rattles and knocking or accidentally melted
| fuel lines from "old electrons".
| nicenewtemp84 wrote:
| What you're talking about here with stale gas is true...
| At maybe the 6 month mark. Not a week.
| duffyjp wrote:
| We used to own a plug-in hybrid and it would keep track
| of when you filled up and occasionally force you to
| consume the gas in the tank. I want to say it was if you
| hadn't filled up in 6~9 months? Something like that.
|
| We always buy ethanol free gas too, which lasts for
| years. I don't even empty our lawn mower over winter, it
| doesn't matter with real gas and a sealed tank.
| Vrondi wrote:
| The gasoline would realistically need to be sitting
| unused in that tank for months to have a chance of "being
| stale". I've started vehicles that have sat unused for 6
| months+ before with no trouble from the gas (the battery
| is more likely to die if unused for a long time).
| mikestew wrote:
| I'm a big EV fan who just dropped $60K on our second EV
| (my comment is probably still at the top of this page). I
| also used to be a professional auto mechanic, and I can
| tell you from both professional experience and personal
| (because we still have a rarely-driven ICE) that there is
| little basis in truth to what you posted.
|
| _If you are filling up less than once a week /once every
| two weeks you are risking stale gas and extra wear and
| tear on an internal combustion engine when you do use
| it..._
|
| No, the gas will have to sit much longer than that. We
| drove our previous EV for twelve years, while filling up
| the ICE Scion about once a month (if that). That Scion is
| still running just fine twelve years later. Don't even
| ask how long the gas sits in the VW camper van. I'd bet
| real money I go out, turn the key, and it'll fire up just
| fine.
|
| I'm all for encouraging folks to get an EV, but
| inaccurate information only hurts the cause.
| Vrondi wrote:
| Refreshing to hear an nice, truthful voice of sanity in a
| discussion about EVs. I know people are all super hyped
| about feeling like they are helping the environment, but
| the sheer amount of classist untruths spouted about EVs
| vs. ICEs online is noxious. I mean, there are enough real
| pros to appeal to those that want to be early adopters
| without all the self-righteousness out there.
|
| Anyway, thank you for your refreshingly grounded-in-
| reality comment.
| qball wrote:
| >A battery charge doesn't "go stale"
|
| Yes it does- cells slowly self-discharge when not in use
| and have their range affected by temperature swings to
| the degree that, for certain cars (mainly the Leaf), the
| weather will dictate if you're going to make it to work
| and back or not.
|
| >an EV is still cheaper and easier and more convenient
|
| I can't buy an EV for $10,000 that has more than 60 miles
| of maximum range and recharges in less than 10 minutes,
| so every one of those points is wrong. Oh yeah, and I
| don't have to spend an hour per week waiting for it to
| charge it because it holds what is, at current burn
| rates, a month's worth of fuel (I can't take advantage of
| home charging unless I want to move and thus burn several
| hundred more a month on rent- and several hundred dollars
| can buy a lot of gas).
|
| The electricity itself might be cheap but everything else
| isn't.
|
| >generally increasing the risk of expensive maintenance
|
| Cars that run on gas are extremely reliable even past
| 100,000 miles, and have been for the past 20 years now
| (even the American-made ones). I give worse odds to the
| electric power packs that by their nature are
| cumulatively damaged when refueled; exhibit A being the
| Leaf, of course.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| It depends how much you drive the car, plus some ICE cars
| have the benefit of being tried and true workhorses that
| you assume will have a near 100% probability of meeting
| or exceeding your expectations, whereas an EV's total
| cost is more volatile due to lack of data.
| throwway120385 wrote:
| You can reasonably expect a car with simpler
| electrically-driven systems that are digitally controlled
| to be more reliable and to have more predictable failure
| modes than something driven by a long fluid-filled
| drivetrain that is powered by carefully-metered
| controlled explosions.
| lowbloodsugar wrote:
| A 27k car that dealers are adding, coincidentally, a $7000
| markup to, so the sticker price is $34,000. So not only do
| they take the tax credit, they also increase the sales tax
| you have to pay. You'd be insane to buy one. Get a Kia Rio
| and the TCO will still be less than the Bolt, and you'll
| never be stuck with an empty battery and a broken charger.
| rnk wrote:
| Dealers are doing that - yes. But it's not hard to find
| dealers in my big city that aren't doing it. Just search
| around on the internet and you can also find car dealers
| that don't add these charges.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > EVs are purely novelty item at this point. An EV vehicle
| is fundamentally simpler than a gas car in terms of parts
| required, and should be cheaper to make and way cheaper to
| buy new.
|
| Which means they have less stuff to break and thus less
| operating expense, yes. But the main cost block for an EV
| is the battery pack and power electronics - the ICE
| industry has had like a century of time to optimize every
| nook and cranny out of the production line, whereas mass
| manufactured EVs are only a decade or so old. (Yes there
| have been historic EVs too, but they differ so completely
| from today's EVs that there is no way one can speak of
| continuous experience building)
|
| The thing is, the operating expenses are way lower, for a
| small increase in base cost. No need to replace oil every
| so often, if you're running a diesel no AdBlue and no
| regular periods of increased fuel consumption to clean the
| particulate filter, no need to replace a clutch, timing
| belts or transmission, even the brake pads last longer
| because regenerative braking doesn't create any wear. For
| fuel, if you're somewhere in the suburbs, place some solar
| panels on your roof and enjoy virtually free, clean energy
| while the rest of your neighbors fuel human rights
| atrocities in OPEC countries.
|
| And the comfort of driving one is waaaay beyond ICE cars.
| Even your base Tesla Model 3 completely floors most
| affordable ICE cars at a red light drag race, they're so
| silent, no vibrations but those from the road, better
| handling because of the extremely low center of gravity, no
| headache inducing smell from cold starts in the winter...
| GenerWork wrote:
| >For fuel, if you're somewhere in the suburbs, place some
| solar panels on your roof and enjoy virtually free, clean
| energy
|
| How many people can afford a mortgage, a brand new car
| (even with the tax credits), AND solar panels all at the
| same time?
| crazygringo wrote:
| I mean, you can get literally all of those with
| financing. And you're not paying money on gas at all,
| which is the whole point.
|
| Sure there are down payments you have to plan for, but
| I'm not really sure what your point is. Yes, if you can't
| afford a new car you can't afford a new car.
|
| But the whole point of financing things is to come out
| ahead in the long run.
| rnk wrote:
| You can get a $7500 tax credit on a bolt and a few other
| cars. This is also true with the just updated EPA rules.
| This also means materials and manufacturing especially
| batteries were primarily from the US, Mexico or Canada. So
| it's effectively 20k for many people.
|
| EVs are expensive primarily because of the battery at this
| point. And the secondary reason is the tremendous demand
| combined with reduced availability of cars leads to dealers
| adding their dealer markup. There have already been EVs
| that sold for a lower price with software locked batteries
| that you could upgrade later. Almost 10 years ago Tesla
| offered that. There were cars with gas extenders like you
| described almost 10 years ago, the BMW i3 is one.
| concerned_ wrote:
| [flagged]
| initramfs wrote:
| The U.S should loan Elio Motors to produce their electric car and
| offer a $7500 tax credit. Then the cost of it would be $7500
| after rebates. If the company can't deliver, The U.S could seize
| the company and sell the car themselves. They already sell a
| public-health option for insurance. Then they could copy the
| solar panels from Aptera and add those to the Elio's roof.
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| USA isn't really known for seizing companies and nationalizing
| them. It would just force a sale to another USA company.
| initramfs wrote:
| Except Elio has struggled for 15 years to release a car. It
| needs a receivership, not one that permanently owns it,
| unless they are just deliberately playing with investors.
| throwawaymaths wrote:
| I doubt the US wants to be in the business of selling cars.
| Definitely not its strong suit
| initramfs wrote:
| It would serve the public interest, as there aren't many
| affordable cars under $20,000. Chevy got out of the Spark
| production last year. If the economy can't produce enough
| jobs to afford rent, how do people expect to get to work? The
| Cash for Clunkers program at least got dangerously old cars
| off the road.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_Allowance_Rebate_System
| RegularOpossum wrote:
| Elio can't still be around can it?
| initramfs wrote:
| It lives: https://www.eliomotors.com/
| RegularOpossum wrote:
| So there is still hope to see their weird tandem Ford Focus
| someday!
| mustacheemperor wrote:
| I remember my dad put a preorder deposit in for this when I
| was in high school, with his idea being it would be the
| perfect vehicle for me to commute around a college campus
| several years later. I am now approaching 30 and from what
| I recall of Elio's website when I looked at it then, it
| looks like they've made a lot of progress in offering the
| vehicle in additional colors.
| gumballindie wrote:
| If anything, not buying a BMW or VW saves you from plenty of
| headaches. These days buying asian means you get higher quality,
| but perhaps less bling, and more value (unless replacing cars as
| often as phones is your thing). More standard options tho and a
| slightly better pricing.
| abeppu wrote:
| I wonder what the income distribution on buyers looks like for
| these different companies, and what proportion of their buyers
| would be unable to use the tax credit regardless? E.g. if
| proportion p of your buyers can't use the tax credit and relying
| on foreign battery production reduces the sticker price at least
| (1-p) * $7500, you would be net saving your purchasers money if
| you keep the foreign battery sources?
| Night_Thastus wrote:
| I'm more-or-less familiar with what a tax credit is, but what is
| a commercial lease?
|
| "Treasury in December said EVs ineligible for the $7,500 consumer
| tax credit could qualify for a commercial leasing $7,500 credit."
|
| What does that mean for a consumer wanting to buy an EV?
| yardie wrote:
| It means they will have to take a lease instead of paying by
| cash or financing with credit. It's a loophole that Kia and
| Hyundai is trying to steer customers to. Their last quarter was
| stupendously bad.
| mikestew wrote:
| From one (me) who bought a Hyundai in the past week:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35604611
|
| Whether, and how, it applies to other makes I do not know.
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