[HN Gopher] Tabi: The shoe that became a sock and then a shoe again
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Tabi: The shoe that became a sock and then a shoe again
Author : kizunajp
Score : 153 points
Date : 2023-04-16 04:07 UTC (18 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (one-from-nippon.ghost.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (one-from-nippon.ghost.io)
| gweinberg wrote:
| What does splitting off the great toe get you? It seems like a
| needless complication.
| gregwebs wrote:
| If you are looking for a blend of sock and shoe:
| https://baresocks.com/
|
| I have been absolutely loving wearing these in colder, drier
| weather. Its an extremely minimal shoe- feels like being
| barefoot, They are too warm for warmer weather and they absorb
| water is wet weather. I dealt with wet weather by using sealskinz
| waterproof socks. I bought two sizes: a smaller size for just my
| foot and a bigger size to accommodate socks.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| Thanks for the hint, there are also a couple of more expensive
| options, like https://www.getfyf.com/
|
| Same principle, but with single toes.
|
| And then there are them:
|
| https://skinners.cc/en/
|
| So far I have used none of them, but different Five Finger
| shoes extensivly. I can recommend the general principle much,
| if you enjoy barefeet running, but not cutting your feet open.
| e12e wrote:
| > I can recommend the general principle much, if you enjoy
| barefeet running, but not cutting your feet open.
|
| I can also recommend Vibram five finger shoes for swimming
| where there are rocks or sharp shells or corals. They
| basically work like wetsuit feet with a great grip - and
| helps avoiding falls and cuts. Works both for summer and
| winter in my experience.
|
| Ed: or just for wading/ crossing streams.
| mateus1 wrote:
| I'd love to use them vibram. They're not an option because
| i have minor syndactyly.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| Well, I would love the vibrams to be custom cut to my
| feet, as well, because my toes are not standard size
| either (no feet truly is).
|
| Sometimes in fact, 2 toes get into one, but it is
| actually not too uncomfortable, so maybe it would still
| work for you? There are many different models, some would
| probably be better suited as they are more flexible and
| wider, but I have no idea about the current models.
| renewiltord wrote:
| There's also water shoes for that if you're not up for the
| split toes.
| hotpockets wrote:
| I got a cheap version on Amazon (like 10 bucks) last summer.
| they are great.
| abandonliberty wrote:
| Do the sealskins work if you have really sweaty feet?
| twic wrote:
| Do you wear the Baresocks with or without socks? Either way,
| how often do you wash them?
| gregwebs wrote:
| You don't need socks with them. I have a smaller size for no
| socks and one size larger for wearing with socks. I wear the
| larger size with socks when it is colder or wetter. I have
| multiple pairs and haven't needed to wash them yet. The seal
| skinz socks need to get washed frequently if they frequently
| get wet and sweaty.
| arcanemachiner wrote:
| I got some minimalist shoes on Amazon's that are somewhat
| similar. They're like a cheaper version of Vibram FiveFingers.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| Do they slide around on your feet like standard socks would?
| jp0d wrote:
| Tabis were part of my official uniform when I trained at a
| Bujinkan Ninjitsu school almost a decade ago. They were fun.
| jaipilot747 wrote:
| I enjoyed learning about this, but did it really become a sock
| and then a shoe again?
|
| It sounds to me like several designs emerged at different stages
| from the same root idea, rather than a linear transition from one
| thing to the other.
| bonzini wrote:
| After a shortage of leather, "Manufacturers switched to making
| tabis from cotton and other fabrics. And here is where the shoe
| started turning into a sock."
|
| Shojiro [...] "developed a new kind of tabi made of thick
| cotton and a rubber sole. They called this a jika-tabi (Di Xia
| Zu Dai ) which loosely translates to "tabis that touch the
| ground". This married their expertise in fabric tabis and their
| experiments with a material that was relatively new to Japan.
| And turned the sock turned back into a shoe."
|
| So basically the most common variation in different times
| changed depending on available materials and these days cotton
| tabis are used only as part of traditional dresses.
| kizunajp wrote:
| > and these days cotton tabis are used only as part of
| traditional dresses.
|
| And in the construction industry - which I think is very
| unique to Japan. Don't know of any other country that doesn't
| use shoes.
|
| There are also newer entrants in the running shoes space,
| like the Toe-bi: https://www.kineyatabi.com/shop/tabi-
| running-shoes/toe-bi/
| jaclaz wrote:
| >Don't know of any other country that doesn't use shoes.
|
| Not only "shoes", they usually need to be conformant to
| local safety norms (EN ISO 20345 in Eu) that include a
| "hard point" (resistant to 200 joule or 20 kg falling from
| 1 meter height) and - usually - an anti-perforation layer
| underneath (those used in construction, at least here in
| Italy are either S1P or S3 type).
| bonzini wrote:
| My reading of the article (and my understanding of the
| photo) is that construction workers use modern versions of
| the jika-tabis.
| throwawaaarrgh wrote:
| Unrelated: Roofers in Australia started wearing an early
| tennis shoe that was cotton canvas with a sole that
| emulated a rubber tire. It became so popular they made a
| steel toed version. Only steel toed tennis shoe I know
| of. https://volley.com.au/products/safety-canvas-black-
| grey?vari...
|
| The regular ones are fantastic by the way. Very
| comfortable, insanely flexible and grippy. But they do
| tend to fall apart quickly. In AU they're very cheap, but
| more expensive for us.
| lovemenot wrote:
| Cannot answer your historical question, but maybe I noticed
| something relevant today.
|
| I went out this morning with a couple of dozen Japanese to do a
| dragon dance (Ryujin) around the local village. Exactly like
| this one[1] from 8 years ago.
|
| 80% of the dancers were wearing tabi. I figured out why. Upon
| re-entering the community centre from where festivities are
| organised, tabi-wearers could just wipe their feet and enter.
| The rest of us had to hold that dragon while simultaneously
| removing shoes and stacking them.
|
| Socially, tabi are the only acceptable in-and-out shoes/socks I
| have seen here.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSLQbSXFUY8
| e12e wrote:
| Do they not wear slippers over the tabi?
| kizunajp wrote:
| Well, few things in life actually take linear transitions.
| Ideas and experience gained from one thing often influence
| solutions in unrelated domains.
|
| Like I've written, the history of the tabi is long and complex,
| so it necessarily involves many changes and evolutions along
| the way.
| ramchip wrote:
| Yeah, if we say the three stages are 1) leather (shoe), 2)
| cotton (sock), 3) cotton + rubber (shoe), then (1) is extinct
| but (2) and (3) both exist today.
| mongol wrote:
| The link about how he aborted the race is well worth reading.
| From Wikipedia:
|
| Kanakuri pulled out midway through the race and was cared for by
| a local family. Embarrassed from his "failure", he silently
| returned to Japan without notifying race officials.
|
| Although local newspapers at the time correctly reported that
| Kanakuri withdrew halfway through the race, the fact that
| Kanakuri had not officially reported back after doing so gave
| birth to humorous stories in Sweden about the supposedly lost
| Japanese runner.
|
| In 1967, he was contacted by Swedish Television and offered the
| opportunity to complete his run. He accepted and completed the
| marathon, remarking,"Kanaguri of Japan is now in the goal. Time,
| 54 years and 8 months 6 days 5 hours 32 minutes 20 seconds 3,
| which will end the entire schedule of the 5th Stockholm Olympic
| Games," was announced. He commented "It was a long trip. Along
| the way, I got married, had six children and 10 grandchildren."
| HPsquared wrote:
| Reminds me of the Japanese soldier found living on an island
| years after WW2.
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_holdout
| bananatype wrote:
| Ah yes, Hiroo Onoda. He was adamant the war was still on,
| that his commanding officer had to be flown in to Sabang
| Island in Mindoro province (Philippines) just to give him his
| orders.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroo_Onoda
| zabzonk wrote:
| i think that Kumiko in "mona lisa overdrive" runs through a
| freezing London in rubber tabi. at the time of reading i thought
| - that is going to hurt. of course, we don't get many freezing
| days in london now.
| jahnu wrote:
| Nit pick but fun trivia: the marathon distance wasn't yet fixed
| at its current 42.195 km until 1924. While that distance had been
| used before, for the 1912 olympic marathon it was 40.2 km.
| CannisterFlux wrote:
| The part about the cost of a cheap straw shoe vs the longer
| lasting tabi reminded me of the Sam Vimes Boots Theory from the
| Pratchett novels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory
| jaipilot747 wrote:
| It is expensive to be poor.
| jezzamon wrote:
| I wonder how true this actually is now. I initially read this
| and believe it was accurate but I've come across two things
| that make we wonder about it now
|
| Specifically for clothes, the cost of "good quality" products
| could potentially be a lot more expensive, to the extent that
| the cost per wear is still better going with the cheap option
| and buying replacements more frequently. I only have one
| piece of anec-data which is a spreadsheet a coworker created
| to track this for themselves
|
| The other thing this would seem to imply is that the total
| spending increases at some people as income goes down, as
| they have to pay for more lower quality things, but what I
| saw a graph of spending vs income (which I can't find again
| after some searching) that doesn't hold up in the data. That
| could mean that they're compensating for high costs of some
| things by spending less in other areas, I guess.
| armchairhacker wrote:
| Not for boots. For some stuff the more expensive version
| still lasts longer or is otherwise better. But usually a)
| it doesn't matter or b) you need more than money to find
| the "best" version of something, you need connections or
| you need to know how to search the web and filter bias.
| Boots, household appliances, etc. aren't the issue.
|
| Being poor is still very much expensive. You can't afford
| good insurance, you spend more money on repairing old
| things than buying new ones, you can't afford education and
| credentials necessarily to get a good job, you can't unwind
| to prevent burnout, you can't take risks or spend time on
| side projects, you can't quit terrible jobs because
| otherwise you'll become homeless, constant depression about
| how life is unfair and anxiety about late payments impacts
| health and performance (which impacts university grades or
| job salary), extra things you must do like wait in like at
| the food panty and work extra jobs also impact health and
| performance, and more. It really is significantly easier to
| make money when you have money.
|
| You need to read first-hand accounts of poor people from
| social media like https://reddit.com/r/povertyfinance and
| https://reddit.com/r/homeless to really understand (and
| yes, people lie and exaggerate on social media, and I see
| many instances of missing context and over-exaggeration on
| these subs, but the basic logic behind "being poor makes
| life much harder" very much checks out, and everything I
| mentioned above is 100% accurate. There are even former
| SWEs among the poor and even though they can avoid some of
| the pitfalls, they are nonetheless struggling the same)
| failrate wrote:
| More expensive clothing can also be repaired, while fast
| fashion products/cheap versions of clothing often cannot be
| adequately mended.
| justnotworthit wrote:
| I wouldn't say that all cheap stuff is "bought twice" or is
| the worse long term value (living out of the clothes
| donation bin, for both rich and poor, is probably the best
| value as far as durability-to-cost). It's that the poor
| don't have the choice to buy the expensive stuff when it IS
| a better value.
| bookofjoe wrote:
| Both in terms of money and time.
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(page generated 2023-04-16 23:02 UTC)