[HN Gopher] A Mechanism for Long Covid
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A Mechanism for Long Covid
Author : pera
Score : 89 points
Date : 2023-04-15 13:56 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (mastodon.nl)
(TXT) w3m dump (mastodon.nl)
| dTal wrote:
| >Meanwhile, I decided to put the hypothesis to the test and came
| up with a treatment consisting of multiple components that would,
| in theory, enable me to rebalance my acid-base levels. After
| trying this treatment for a couple of days I started to see
| significant improvements in my full range of #LongCovid symptoms.
|
| "I have discovered a truly marvelous treatment for Long Covid,
| which, however, this margin is not large enough to contain."
| viraptor wrote:
| It's described in a separate thread
| https://mastodon.nl/@vickyvdtogt/110202237846457614
| csdvrx wrote:
| Paper on
| https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2023.1150...
| Animats wrote:
| It's a hypothesis supposedly testable in a month. Now what?
| csdvrx wrote:
| > It's a hypothesis supposedly testable in a month. Now what?
|
| Your guess is as good as mine.
|
| There's a lot of politics embedded in science now: I learned
| on the tinnitus thread posted here a few days ago that the
| side effect of tinnitus after vaccination was very likely to
| be real, but that research had been suppressed to help with
| vaccine adoption. It's possible it's a psyops, but here, on
| HN? By several people with a valid post history? Extremely
| unlikely.
|
| For this, given how simple the confirmation is (test lactate
| levels), I hope sufferers of long covid will measure their
| levels and try the simple suggested approach, for which there
| should be very little risks of drawbacks (supplementing in a
| few amino acids and carnitine, taking some sodium
| bicarbonate)
|
| Hopefully, enough of a critical mass of confirmation for both
| the proposed confirmation test + simple treatment option will
| lead to actual research, but what a shame it didn't come from
| mainstream science, and what a shame independant researchers
| are being put on the defensive: as the author said in a link
| just posted:
| https://mastodon.nl/@vickyvdtogt/110202251308724694
|
| > I want to state again: this is not a suggestion to what
| people should do, as it needs to be studied and clinically
| tested first.
|
| Well, maybe it should be, I don't see the risks of people
| trying stretching exercices, breathing exercices,
| supplementing in a few amino acids or drinking alkaline
| water.
|
| I can already imagine comments "BUT WHAT IF PEOPLE DRINK
| GALLONS OF PH BUFFERS???" Well, it's not what's suggested,
| and even water can kill if drinking too much of it.
|
| The real shame is how many people have learned to distrust
| science and how the political takeover has damaged the trust
| network necessary for society to work.
| yafbum wrote:
| > After continuing this makeshift treatment for a couple of
| weeks, I improved to a point where I was completely and stably
| symptom free.Since then I've been working with Dr. Jeremy Rossman
| to put this mechanism on paper, so that it can be shared and
| further researched, tested, and proven.
|
| Counting down seconds to articles spinning this as "CURE FOR LONG
| COVID MAY HAVE BEEN FOUND", someone who thinks they have long
| COVID "does their own research" and starts drinking gallons of pH
| buffering solution. I'm excited and happy for the researcher but
| if we've learned anything about COVID treatments in the past few
| years, it's that desperate people will do desperate things (eg
| hydrochloroquine) well after they've been shown to be harmful. I
| think it'd be nice to not get too many people's hopes up yet.
| [deleted]
| Mildlypolite wrote:
| I can confirm that, after having ME for more than ten years, this
| researcher seem to have understood the underlying mechanisms.
| I've got better with a similar treatment and I will persevere now
| that I know more precisely what to do.
| labrador wrote:
| I managed to avoid Covid for three years but finally got it. I
| suspect it is one of the new more transmissible strains from
| China after they opened up and 230 million Chinese got sick,
| because I got it at the Trader Joe's next to the San Jose airport
| and live in an Asian neighborhood. I've been sick for 6 weeks
| now, so I don't know if that qualifies as long Covid.
|
| After years of hearing it was "just a flu" I didn't think much of
| it interacting with my bipolar type II disorder, but I noticed I
| was hypomanic with Covid in a strange sort of way and my
| quetiapine no longer seemed to work. Other strange things have
| happened, such as I am a vegetarian now because eating meat
| tastes repulsive to me. Dairy is ok. I also can't stand using
| cannabis anymore. The high feels different, much harsher and
| weirder.
|
| Not much research has been done in the areas of Covid interaction
| with psychiatric disorders, psyche meds and interactions with
| recreational drugs but I'm hoping things get back to normal so I
| don't have to keep researching it. All except for the meat part,
| because I'm happy being a vegetarian. And I'll save money at the
| cannabis store.
|
| Full disclosure: I'm fully vaxxed and boosted with bivalent
| formulations of the Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech in November 2022
|
| Edit: I'm not making up wild theories of new mutations. There are
| multiple credible sources. This is just one
|
| https://www.voanews.com/a/experts-weigh-risk-of-new-covid-mu...
|
| I'm surprised there is any negative reaction to this comment. I
| would love if someone with such a reaction would explain
| themselves
| MengerSponge wrote:
| > years of hearing it was "just a flu"
|
| "Just a flu" was always bullshit on two fronts: influenza is a
| terrible disease that has killed millions, and everyone serious
| knew COVID was worse.
|
| But of course: "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating
| it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be
| maintained only for such time as the State can shield the
| people from the political, economic and/or military
| consequences of the lie."
| [deleted]
| goatlover wrote:
| Wait, how has Covid been worse than Influenza? Infuenza
| killed around 50 million people in 1918. There were far less
| people back then, and travel was slower.
| azeirah wrote:
| Influenza is a virus that is constantly mutating. I think
| the comparison means to the variants colloquially known as
| "the flu", which are the ones that make you sick for a week
| or maybe two. They're not comparing to all influenza
| variants ever.
| MengerSponge wrote:
| Exactly. It's still a serious infection! It makes
| otherwise healthy young adults super ill for a week or
| two, and kill the elderly and the very young.
| terminatornet wrote:
| > This finding should be interpreted in the context of a 2
| to 3 times greater number of people being hospitalized for
| COVID-19 vs influenza in the US in this period.
|
| > However, the difference in mortality rates between
| COVID-19 and influenza appears to have decreased since
| early in the pandemic; death rates among people
| hospitalized for COVID-19 were 17% to 21% in 2020 vs 6% in
| this study, while death rates for those hospitalized for
| influenza were 3.8% in 2020 vs 3.7% in this study.
|
| The gap between mortality rates for covid and the flu has
| decreased, but covid is still clearly worse.
|
| https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2803749
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| While you're right that then 1918 flu was worse than any
| variant of Covid that was more than 100 years ago, not now.
| Covid is now, and considerably more deadly than current flu
| strains.
| MengerSponge wrote:
| The original strain of covid was not worse than the
| deadliest strains of influenza, but "common" circulating
| strains of influenza kill tens of thousands almost every
| year. I would say every year, except deaths from influenza
| plummeted in 2020/2021 due to masking and social
| distancing.
|
| 2020 and 2021 are the root of my claim that Covid is
| "worse". Millions died of covid during this time, but
| deaths from influenza dropped to minuscule levels. Some
| strains of influenza may have gone extinct.
|
| Influenza that makes you sick for a week or two isn't a
| trivial thing either! If you're lucky, you'll just feel
| awful for a week. If you're unlucky, you're part of the
| chain of transmission that kills someone's grandparents.
| Get your flu shots.
| Qellion wrote:
| The flu comment was some fake news. I'm surprised that you
| repeated that blindly.
|
| Also your assumption why you have COVID now is just racist or
| stupid.
|
| COVID is still out there, people still get COVID.
|
| The simplest explainatiom why you got COVID: because someone
| was infected and now you were unlucky in comparison to before.
|
| COVID did not disappear.
| gadders wrote:
| If you have no underlying conditions and under 70 or so then
| it is just like flu/a bad cold in 99% of cases.
| Jamesbeam wrote:
| She has done research on herself...with cheap electronic home
| monitoring devices that were not calibrated to any proper
| laboratory standards, without any kind of proper blinding or any
| other globally accepted research standards.
|
| I can't. I can't do this any longer.
|
| This is as professional as a certain former US president
| suggesting we should shine strong light into the body or inject
| people's lungs with disinfectant. It's not a "hypothesis" it's
| just you being stupid.
|
| I'm not a scientist, but I beg people to not test wild stuff on
| themselves and instead let the people do their job who dedicated
| most of their lives into figuring out problems the proper
| scientific way. You are not a scientist because you read some
| research papers and stretched a bit at home and changed your diet
| and magically feel better now.
|
| Long-Covid for many people is the first time they have to deal
| with a life-altering illness that we do not have a treatment for
| yet.
|
| So unless you have prior experience with that kind of situation,
| I get it, it's scary and hard to understand that there might
| never be a cure.
|
| I have the "luxury" as someone with a lifelong autoimmune disease
| that cost me a vital organ along the way and can only live
| because of science and popping a pill each day, plus surviving
| cancer, that sometimes all you can do is make the best out of the
| situation as is while real scientists and doctors figure stuff
| out.
|
| Accept that at this time you might not be going to get back to
| what you were capable of before the illness. Build psychological
| resilience and find mechanisms that help you get back to an
| acceptable level of life quality. It's not worth it chasing DIY
| treatments if you have no fucking idea what you are doing, like
| this girl. Desperation is not a good guide in life decisions.
| ekianjo wrote:
| TLDR: increase of lactate levels may be a pathway to explain long
| covid
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| There was so much culture war discourse on this...
| mitjam wrote:
| Maybe a too short summary; my tldr would be: self-help research
| led to the hypothesis that acid-base balance disruption may
| underpin Long Covid. The hypothesis was published as a paper,
| the author's successful self-treatment is described here:
| https://mastodon.nl/@vickyvdtogt/110202237846457614 high
| lactate levels were an indicator that helped finding a
| hypothesis which could explain the diverse symptoms of Long
| Covid.
| csdvrx wrote:
| I didn't see any description of her self treatment, but I'd
| assume that to be taking bicarbonate or anything else that
| say marathoners take like L Carnitine, Carnosine, Beta
| Alanine, Leucine, Iso Leucine, and Valine.
|
| https://www.runnersworld.com/training/a20860259/does-
| baking-...
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5867441/
| https://www.mbsf.org/the-best-vitamins-and-supplements-
| for-r...
| mitjam wrote:
| Yes, I only found it after looking at her Mastodon channel,
| it ist not a true tldr, but I think still worthwhile to
| mention. Maybe I should have given this as additional
| context at the end. Thank you for the feedback and the
| additional links.
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| Recent research has cast doubt on lactate levels as an
| issue for fatigue during endurance sports.
|
| https://www.january.ai/blog/what-is-blood-lactate-vs-
| lactic-...
| infl8ed wrote:
| She has posted another thread discussing her treatment
| https://mastodon.nl/@vickyvdtogt/110202251308724694
| civilized wrote:
| Any connection of this mechanism to cognitive symptoms, brain
| fog, or sleep difficulties?
| gadders wrote:
| Long COVID is similar to ME in that the cause is likely
| psychiatric (although real to the sufferer) rather than physical.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8870488/
|
| "Conclusions: Our study shows higher levels of neuroticism in
| patients with post-COVID syndrome."
| Mildlypolite wrote:
| Higher neuroticism? I am a psychologist and this means nothing.
|
| This "believes" were entertained for a long time about ME but
| we have enough scientifical evidence that they were false.
|
| Historically, this happened with multiple sclerosis, people
| with ms were labelled as fakers and ms was called "faker's
| disease".
|
| Let's not go again to those horrible times today.
|
| For an ample literature about ME I Invite you to visit the open
| medicine foundation website (the centre that studies ME at
| Stanford).
| nequo wrote:
| Are you saying that if neuroticism is a cause then neuroticism
| is the only cause? I'm not an expert but it seems that the
| causes are pretty much unknown:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_fatigue_syndrome#Cause
| thenerdhead wrote:
| > The cause of PASC is currently debated but likely involves
| several different components, including: viral dissemination and
| persistence, immune activation and dysregulation (e.g. clotting,
| autoantibodies and reactivation of pre-existing latent viruses),
| cell death and tissue damage, and long-lasting cellular changes
| (e.g. epigenetic changes, senescence, fibroproliferation,
| metabolism alterations) (3). However, at present we lack an
| integrative understanding of how these disease components
| interact to cause the variable symptomology of PASC. Based on
| studies on acute COVID-19, PASC and the related myalgic
| encephalomyelitis (ME; chronic fatigue syndrome), we hypothesize
| that an inflammatory acid-base disruption underpins PASC and that
| viral proteins, both acutely and persistently-expressed, cause
| disease symptomology through disseminated tissue damage and
| inflammatory acid-base disruptions.
|
| Seems like an explanation for the body compensating for hypoxic-
| environments by changing its acid-base. But what is fundamentally
| causing these environments?
|
| Focusing on sleep, diet/hydration, and exercise are your three
| major ways to combat long covid. The latter (exercise) is heavily
| controversial in the long covid / ME/CFS communities, but would
| help moderate your acid-base over the long term if you can push
| through the pain/fatigue/etc.
|
| The author suggests a few things helped them. Deep breathing,
| diet changes surrounding acidic foods, and stretching.
|
| My personal experience with two bouts of long covid (14 months
| and 7 months) has me still believing that microclots and nitric
| oxide deficiency being the key factors in my recovery. I've
| recovered twice now and back to pre-covid ability. It took me two
| years of constant exercise to build back to where I was. A modern
| Sisyphean task at that.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9212559/
| starkparker wrote:
| > But what is fundamentally causing these environments?
|
| With the caveat that this doesn't contain an answer, cf. cited
| studies https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8469745/
| ("inflammation, difficulty in gas exchange in the lungs and
| thrombosis" during early infection causes a self-reinforcing
| cycle of metabolic acidosis: decrease in blood pH leads to
| decrease in oxygen saturation, which exacerbates the acidosis)
| and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32738466/ (increased
| general COVID-19 vulnerability correlating with increased
| lactate dehydrogenase levels).
|
| The OP study suggests in the broader context that a person more
| prone to acidosis is more likely to have a _much_ longer and
| worse experience with COVID. This isn 't necessarily news
| because acidosis was already well correlated with worse short-
| term COVID outcomes, but if treating the acidosis can
| substantially treat the symptoms of PASC/long COVID - which one
| of the authors attempts to experimentally prove on the smallest
| meaningful sample size of herself - then identifying and
| treating the cause of _pre-infection_ acidosis risk factors
| _might_ reduce the likelihood and potency of long COVID.
|
| COVID's already been shown to have a harmful effect on renal
| health post-illness: https://journals.lww.com/jasn/fulltext/202
| 1/11000/kidney_out...,
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41581-021-00487-3
|
| And a strong correlation to both complications in diabetic
| patients and as a potential cause of diabetes:
| https://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/library/reports/reportcard/diab...
|
| And since two of the strongest causes of metabolic acidosis are
| poor renal health and poorly managed diabetes, it feels like
| there's a case for at least experimentally trying to treat long
| COVID with a combination of renal nutrition (low-acid/high-
| alkaline diet, more alkaline-forming foods, alkaline water,
| less alcohol, more sodium citrate or bicarbonate) and pre-
| diabetic treatment (stop smoking, exercise, increase low-starch
| vegetable intake, treat high blood pressure).
|
| Or tl;dr: eat all brussels sprouts and carrots, go play outside
| more, and stop eating and drinking so much crap. Preferably
| _before_ you get COVID, but _especially_ after.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| Brussels sprouts are a great way to get nitric oxide.
| jaggederest wrote:
| Unironically my first thought was sildenafil. The little
| blue pill works by increasing nitric oxide production and
| was originally designed for vascular heart issues iirc
| thenerdhead wrote:
| I've heard of that as a wonder drug. It signals for blood
| flow and dilate blood vessels. There's other supplements
| like l-arginine + citrulline that has similar effects but
| different mechanisms.
| prox wrote:
| Can you place the article? Who is the author in a wider
| context?
|
| I have to ask because sometimes you don't know the credentials
| and there is a lot of fluff articles and information around.
|
| Pretty interesting that you were able to beat long covid, so
| you think your regimen helped speed up recovery?
| thenerdhead wrote:
| The author has a link in the mastodon post. I was simply
| quoting the article and some of their other threads.
|
| There is a lot of fluff in general, but experience is the
| best teacher. I'm convinced personally that it helped speed
| up my recovery, but then again who knows if it is gone for
| good. That's the vicissitudes of life for ya.
| Mildlypolite wrote:
| I can confirm that I had ME for 10 years and the treatments
| which the author discusses helped me too, I had to discover
| them through experience but it has always been clear that
| my lactate levels were sky high, I've always felt as I was
| feeling after an all out rowing competition when I was
| healthy. The condition is terrible.
| mancerayder wrote:
| > nitric oxide deficiency
|
| Wasn't there something around Cialis / Viagra being explored
| for covid recovery? Since those drugs act on that, maybe
| there's a potential connection?
| csdvrx wrote:
| > Seems like an explanation for the body compensating for
| hypoxic-environments by changing its acid-base. But what is
| fundamentally causing these environments?
|
| Damage to the lung tissue!
| jaggederest wrote:
| Or damage to microvasculature, whether in the lungs or
| elsewhere
| agumonkey wrote:
| I had weird cardiovascular issues (stuff that feels like
| microclotting after various type of efforts) and \i'm
| really curious about how to improve microvasculature (I
| altered my diet a lot but that's a bit of a blind shot). I
| thought it was out of reach of people today.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| What has helped me is nattokinase, occasional aspirin,
| and plenty of nitric oxide foods / supplements. Very low
| risk and are generally found in natural foods. But I take
| these because I suspect I've had long Covid post my two
| infections.
|
| There is also a triple anticoagulant therapy of
| clopidogrel, aspiring, and apixaban. Those studies are
| popular in South Africa.
| agumonkey wrote:
| Thanks, I'm gonna read about this. I didn't try
| microdosing aspirin, even though it's well known, because
| i'm too weak on biochemistry to avoid bleeding.
|
| Really, thanks a lot, it's a damn burden when your
| cardiovascular system is feeble, you're constantly on the
| edge of a problem and have to monitor every effort
| (almost requiring a car for groceries because i'm not
| sure I can walk with a backpack multiple times a week).
|
| ps: I've recently learned about the blood viscosity
| aspect and also red blood cell renewal through "blood
| donation", you red blood cells being more elastic, it's
| supposed to ensure better flow in microvasculature.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| No idea. I've read stories about people getting CTs showing
| damage and others showing absolutely none. A very, very
| strange virus.
| [deleted]
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