[HN Gopher] Spanish climber emerges after 500 days in cave
___________________________________________________________________
Spanish climber emerges after 500 days in cave
Author : colinprince
Score : 262 points
Date : 2023-04-14 16:35 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.cbc.ca)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.cbc.ca)
| thelittleone wrote:
| I think the Kogi got this beat or yogic practice of Gupta
| Sadhana.
|
| "The Kogi people are an indigenous tribe living in the Sierra
| Nevada de Santa Marta mountains in northern Colombia. The Kogi
| have a strong spiritual connection with their environment and
| practice a number of rituals and ceremonies.
|
| One such ceremony is the initiation of young boys into adulthood,
| which involves a period of seclusion in a cave. The initiation
| process varies in length, but it can last anywhere from several
| months to around nine years, depending on the specific role the
| boy is being prepared for in the community. During this time, the
| boys receive spiritual teachings and learn about the history,
| traditions, and values of the Kogi people. The initiation process
| is an important aspect of the Kogi culture, as it helps maintain
| the tribe's connection to their ancestral beliefs and practices."
| rippercushions wrote:
| > During this time, the boys receive spiritual teachings and
| learn about the history, traditions, and values of the Kogi
| people.
|
| Sounds like they live in a cave, but are not alone?
| relacxt wrote:
| If I came out and heard the news that she missed out on I think I
| would have just gone back to the cave
| new_here wrote:
| Where do I sign up?
| tgtweak wrote:
| > with no contact with the outside world
|
| > in an experiment closely monitored by scientists
|
| well, which is it... can you not contact them if they're
| monitoring you on IP cameras constantly?
| loeg wrote:
| Only 60 books in a year and a half? Sheesh.
| vincnetas wrote:
| Pitty that there are no scientific resuts presented in article
| only random personal details and no insights. i had hoped for
| more substantian information after 500 days.
| tectec wrote:
| If it's anything like the Mars 1000 trip by Reid Stowe then the
| science thing might be more for publicity than for actual
| usable science.
| valarauko wrote:
| She's had no human contact for 500 days, so no samples or
| examinations. That process starts now.
| blobbers wrote:
| I suspect they were actively monitoring blood samples etc.
| valarauko wrote:
| I've looked through a couple of articles, and none mention
| any samples collected while she was in the cave. She'd have
| to draw the samples herself, and at regular intervals at
| that. It seems she had no means of orienting herself with
| time, or know how many days had passed since the last
| sample draw, if any. In theory the support staff could just
| add the sample kits once a month, for example, but I
| suppose the presence of the kit would be a time cue as
| well.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| Was there a Burger King nearby, and how many times did she leave
| unnoticed?
| tough wrote:
| She did take a 8 day break from the cave (which she spent on a
| tent above the cave without human contact but breaking the no-
| sunlight rule) because her wifi network which was in use for the
| security cameras/footage broke and the IT guys have to come and
| fix it around day 298.
|
| This will probably make it not a record previously held by an
| Ucranian on 465 day mark but still very impressive
|
| Also there will be a documentary coming out from her team
| swah wrote:
| Did she have a power outlet there?
| Votearome wrote:
| [flagged]
| 11235813213455 wrote:
| In all seriousness, isn't
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natascha_Kampusch qualifying for
| the record?
| mburee wrote:
| Wouldn't Fritzl's victims beat that by like 20 years?
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case
|
| Disturbingly, also Austrian...
| dybber wrote:
| > Fritzl, who received a life sentence, will be eligible
| for parole in 2023, having served the initial 15 years of
| his sentence
|
| Even though I'm usually against moves towards longer
| sentences, reading this was actually quite disturbing.
| sva_ wrote:
| He recently published a book saying he is innocent and a
| good family man.
|
| https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11944009/Monst
| er-...
| burkaman wrote:
| "Eligible" doesn't mean he'll actually be paroled,
| presumably some committee will have to decide if he can
| be released. It seems like a fine policy to allow the
| potential for parole while still keeping some convicts in
| jail if necessary.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| Keeping an 88-year-old violent criminal in jail could not
| be considered "necessary" by any definition other than a
| pure appeal to morality.
| burkaman wrote:
| I don't know anything about this particular case, I'm
| just saying that "eligible" shouldn't be disturbing in
| any situation because it doesn't mean very much.
| funnymony wrote:
| Morality or revenge?
| irrational wrote:
| I don't understand why. My great grandfather was still
| strong and breaking horses in his late 80s. I have no
| doubt that if he was so inclined he could have easily
| engaged in violent crimes at that age. He was well into
| his 100s and completely healthy until he suddenly just
| died without warning. Maybe this person in jail is
| similar.
| jjulius wrote:
| Fred Beckey[1] was still climbing mountains, and still
| going to the extent of traveling to other countries to
| try to be the first to ascend certain summits via certain
| routes, well into his late 80's and early 90's. Folk can
| surprise you, and the type of clemency suggested by the
| person you're responding to should, IMO, be entirely
| circumstantial rather than just limited to an age cutoff.
|
| [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Beckey
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| I hope you're not really being as absolutist and handwavy
| of people's concerns as you appear. There isn't some age
| cut off (going up) where you are suddenly incapable of
| harming others. An 88 year old can commit all sorts of
| heinous acts.
| arcanemachiner wrote:
| What a strange series of words. You don't think an
| 88-year-old can rape kids?
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| setgree wrote:
| I wish I had not clicked this link
| timcobb wrote:
| > Evidence recovery was complicated, as Priklopil's only
| computer was a 1980s Commodore 64, which is incompatible with
| modern-day data-recovery programs.[37]
| valarauko wrote:
| Which record? It looks like she had contact and interaction
| with her captor every single day.
| qwertox wrote:
| Considering the context, no.
| capableweb wrote:
| Seems the "Captivity" sections goes into more depth about why
| she probably doesn't hold the record:
|
| > For the first six months of her captivity, Kampusch was not
| allowed to leave the chamber at any time, [...] Afterward,
| she spent increasing amounts of time upstairs in the rest of
| the house,
|
| > In later years, she was seen outside in the garden alone
|
| Seems she wasn't underground for the entire duration.
| albert_e wrote:
| Off topic
|
| On mobile (android, chrome) the linked news site forces "full
| screen" and somehow prevents the native browser address bar and
| options menu and native share icon etc from appearing. Even
| scrolling up or down doesn't show browser controls like it does
| on other sites.
|
| Surprised this behaviour is possible and allowed by a website
| (full screen take over)
| legohead wrote:
| Lots of mentions of studies by various groups, but the first one
| that came to mind to me was NASA or other space agencies. If we
| want to travel to Mars, and beyond, how will isolation affect us?
| Granted, you may have crewmates on a space flight, but it's still
| good knowledge to know the capabilities of a single individual.
| elliekelly wrote:
| I almost think having crew mates in a small confined space for
| _years_ on end would be worse than the isolation of being
| alone. Maybe the first mission to Mars should just be one
| astronaut and their dogs.
| outside1234 wrote:
| Just crazy mental fortitude. I wouldn't make it three days in
| there.
| pvaldes wrote:
| We have a notable and beautiful spring this year. Even women
| sprout from the soil.
| mxmilkiib wrote:
| What are with these three asterisk comments?
| pshushereba wrote:
| Your move, Aaron Rodgers.
| maskedinvader wrote:
| Great commitment shown by the Athelete, (especially around the no
| communication whatsoever rule , even when death in family , wow)
| the article however never goes into the details on the
| motivations for taking on this challenge in the first place, but
| good to know science can lean on the experience and learn more
| about the human mind and the circadian rhythm. It was also
| surprising to me that the previous record for being trapped
| underground was those children from Chile and Bolivia stuck after
| the mine collapse in Chile in 2010.
| mwattsun wrote:
| Most of my submarine buddies described living on a submarine
| underwater for months at a time as a nightmare or, at best, a
| terrible inconvenience, but my experience was exactly like this
| Spanish cave dweller's. Of course, it's helps that I'm a reader
| like them.
| cubefox wrote:
| You are actually a submariner? That sounds scary.
| cs702 wrote:
| The climber, a woman, spent those 500 days alone inside the cave
| _voluntarily_ , as part of an experiment.
|
| It takes a special kind of person to volunteer for that and
| follow through with it.
|
| I don't think I could stay alone in a cave for 100 days and
| emerge with my sanity intact, forget about 500.
| loeg wrote:
| If you can go 7 days you can probably do 500.
| egman_ekki wrote:
| You might want to watch Alone reality show. It can get
| tougher with time. It's not easy to be alone.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alone_(TV_series)
| dhosek wrote:
| I have to admit that to me, this actually sounds quite nice.
| She had books, fresh food and clean clothes were sent down to
| her. I would totally do this.
| tetris11 wrote:
| [flagged]
| Psyonic wrote:
| I'm probably just feeding a troll but why would she need to
| look presentable if she's living isolated in a cave?
| lazide wrote:
| So she wouldn't be silently judged for not doing it,
| apparently.
| germandiago wrote:
| Probably she is saner than us with so many social networks
| around now. Haha.
| 988747 wrote:
| She had WiFi in there...
| kzrdude wrote:
| That doesn't quite add up with the claim of no news from
| the outside. Unless the wifi had no internet connection.
| unreal37 wrote:
| The wifi allowed her helpers to monitor her by camera.
| She didn't have anything other than books.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| Did she do it as part of an experiment, or did she decide to do
| it, and then they made an experiment out of it?
| treeman79 wrote:
| A Russian fled to Siberia, or they had no contact with anyone
| for decades. The father's brother was executed in front of him
| due to Stalins religious persecution. So they were motivated to
| stay hidden.
|
| They could see satellites, overtime, and figured what those
| were. Understanding that rocket tech had continue to advance.
| Plastic wrap, however blew their minds.
|
| https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/12/russia-recluse...
| lm28469 wrote:
| It reminded me of Michel Siffre, weird that there are no
| mentions of him in the article
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Siffre
| sillysaurusx wrote:
| I was reading about a Buddhist ritual for self mummification.
| The final phase involved being voluntarily lowered into the
| ground in a lotus position until they die.
|
| It's quite amazing what the human mind can do. Especially when
| you're crazy.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu
| cs702 wrote:
| _> It's quite amazing what the human mind can do. Especially
| when you're crazy._
|
| or brainwashed.
| cplusplusfellow wrote:
| > The practitioners of sokushinbutsu did not view this
| practice as an act of suicide, but rather as a form of
| further enlightenment.[14]
|
| At what point do we consider this a mental illness rather
| than some higher ascent?
| Teever wrote:
| Is this better or worse than people cheering on contact
| sports like football or MMA where people get paid to suffer
| repeated traumatic brain injuries?
| deesep wrote:
| As ridiculous as it sounds, Slap fighting[0] is a thing
| now. One slap fight contest lasted 27 rounds.
|
| [0]: https://slapfight.com/
| hosh wrote:
| My understanding is that, after some realizations of
| impermanence, fundamental suffering, and no-self, something
| like this isn't insane. If anything, the way people treat
| themselves and others in ordinary life, the kind of mental
| gymnastics and self-inflicted anguish in "normal" society
| is the insanity.
| vlunkr wrote:
| > If anything, the way people treat themselves and others
| in ordinary life, the kind of mental gymnastics and self-
| inflicted anguish in "normal" society is the insanity.
|
| This is just "What if the people in mental hospitals are
| the sane ones, and we're all crazy?" with fancier words.
| hinkley wrote:
| Realizing that other people have tethered their sense of
| self and sanity to a poorly chosen tether is a dangerous
| moment.
|
| It's well documented that this can end in severe
| depression (existential dread) or even suicide.
|
| If you don't have a firm grip on yourself to begin with,
| I could see how it could end in insanity just as easily.
| Probably a little different cause and effect model
| though.
| ep103 wrote:
| The most important philosophical lesson I've learned in
| life, is that it is important to take a step back once in
| a while (regularly!) and assess whether what you are
| doing in life genuinely appears to be good or bad at a
| very surface, kindergarten level, as a reality check.
|
| There are just too many times you read through people
| doing horrific things throughout history, and if you read
| enough you can understand the viewpoints and the cultures
| that drove those people do to those things, but at the
| end of the day, I can't help but feel like: "why can't
| people just, from time to time, take a step back and
| think: really though, do I think this is right?" and then
| truly be willing to make the changes necessary to their
| life's choices if the answer is: "No".
|
| It doesn't matter if it is something as obvious as being
| a member of the einsatzgruppen, or just realizing that
| you're spending too much time at work when you need to be
| home with your family (or vice versa).
|
| People don't seem to do this nearly enough, and I've
| found that generally, its a more important moral
| signifier than the deep and complicated ideologies we
| mentally build for ourselves that gets us into these
| situations.
|
| So no. Even if the moral ideology of these monks is
| crystal clear, perfectly logical, and rationally perfect,
| at the end of the day, they've chosen suicide over
| finding a way to enjoy life. They've failed the
| kindergarten morality test.
| munificent wrote:
| I like this. At the same time, it can be challenging to
| apply in practice because you have to be mindful of the
| scope you are analyzing.
|
| Let's say you travel for work for a week. If you analyze
| just that week, it appears you are living your life
| completely out of balance. Don't get to see your family
| at all. No time spent with close friends. No opportunity
| to deepen ties to your local community.
|
| But if you only travel for a week and are otherwise home,
| and the career affords you the ability to take care of
| your family and community, then this is a reasonable
| trade-off. So you have to look at a larger timespan. But
| how large? A month? A year? What chronological scope is
| the right one to evaluate one's actions?
|
| Now consider the much harder scope: number of people.
| Humans are social creatures and almost nothing that we do
| can be evaluated in isolation. Willingly dying in a knife
| fight certainly fails the kindergarten test. But not
| necessarily if doing so protects your family from the
| attacker.
|
| But what kinds of sacfrifices do you consider reasonable
| and for which groups? Many jobs have some level of
| physical danger. Is it reasonable to take those risks for
| the benefit of the company? What harm would you accept to
| yourself to benefit your community?
|
| What about your country? Flying a thousand miles to a
| foreign country to shoot someone in the face who did you
| no harm certain fails the kindergarten test. But what if
| your country is at war with that person's country? How
| does the kindergarten test handle this scenario when it's
| a member of the SS during WWII versus someone in some
| other conflict?
|
| Morality is hard.
| louison11 wrote:
| You seem to promote self awareness yet are judging people
| and a tradition you know nothing about. I'm not pro or
| against what was just shared - mostly just like you
| slightly perplexed. And I think I understand where you're
| trying to get to with this - but I've noticed that when I
| think "people don't do enough of this," I'm often
| projecting what I'm actually not doing enough.
| -\\_(tsu)_/-
| adamisom wrote:
| Please don't "gotcha". This type of critique is lazy and
| flattens the interesting points raised in the parent.
| And: sometimes people are projecting, other times they're
| not.
| hosh wrote:
| That's interesting you bring up this point, because it
| opens up a whole can of worms:
|
| - Why is suicide bad?
|
| - Why is there a presumption that this is your one and
| only life?
|
| - Why is there a presumption that life is made to be
| enjoyed?
|
| - Why is there a presumption that consciousness ends
| after life ends?
|
| - If death is inevitable, then couldn't suicide be
| broadly construed to pretty much ... just living?
|
| Believe it or not, these are thoroughly explored by monks
| and philosophers. Ironically, I think perhaps, you should
| take a step back and examine some of your own frame in
| looking at this.
|
| I'll start with this: there are more than one kind of
| motivation for ending one's own life. The most common
| one, which we call suicide, is usually done after giving
| up on life because there is overwhelming pain. There is a
| lively debate about this going on with regards to
| assisted suicide, including certain countries having
| passed legislation with _state-funded_ assisted suicide.
| It 's not that I agree with this kind of suicide, but
| rather, I think you are construing suicide far too
| broadly, conflating what the monks are doing with
| suicidal people overwhelmed with pain.
|
| What these monks are doing are not an attempt to kill
| themselves, because things are more difficult. If that
| were so, there would be no tradition of self-immolation.
|
| To give you a contrast, look at say, a modern -- still
| living -- teacher named Adyashanti. In the past year or
| so, he took a sabbatical from teaching due to his health
| condition, where he silently attends and lets his partner
| lead the teaching. And it may not seem like it when you
| hear him speak over the years, but he has been
| experiencing significant pain for years due to his
| ongoing health condition.
|
| It's the same realizations he has that allows him to
| carry on with his teaching despite experiencing that
| pain, as it does with the monks going through
| mummification or self-immolation.
| sokoloff wrote:
| > Why is there a presumption that this is your one and
| only life?
|
| > Why is there a presumption that consciousness ends
| after life ends?
|
| Because there's no evidence to the contrary and Occam's
| Razor as applied the plain observations of life and death
| suggests this is a reasonable base assumption. "The
| simplest explanation is usually best."
| msm_ wrote:
| I mean we are on HackerNews, site filled mostly with
| rational, down to earth people. But there are billions
| people that believe in, for example, saints that can
| intervene in the earthly affairs. They also believe in
| multiple stories about miracles involving that saints
| after their death. I don't, but your razor doesn't work
| when one believes _there is_ evidence to the contray. In
| fact, despite our bubble, way, way more people worldwide
| are religious than atheists.
|
| (and by the way, you only picked two out of many
| questions to answer)
| pwgentleman wrote:
| That seems to imply those billions of people religious
| are not rational, down to earth.
|
| Theism in itself is a simpler explanation for existence
| than atheism, and yet many rational people are atheists.
| Is it because they weighted all the possibilities or
| because they discarded the option a priori?
|
| We are all way less rational than we would like to
| believe.
| somenameforme wrote:
| The simplest explanation, by far, would be a deistic view
| of some sort or another from which questions of the
| meaning of life cycles immediately emerge.
|
| A belief in natural emergence relies not only on endless
| untestable hypotheses, but even still results in the
| exact same sort of frustrating unanswerables. For
| instance if one believes that the initial matter, which
| would culminate in the Big Bang, whisked into existence
| through a quantum fluctuation, then it immediately leads
| to the question of what created this void, rich in
| quantum interactions, or the nature of quantum
| interactions themselves? And for that there's not even a
| hypothesis, untestable or not.
|
| Maybe there will be one day, but also maybe not. To me
| the simplest answer is to simply acknowledge of our own
| inability to offer any compelling answer to this
| question. That's not to say an _acceptance_ of such
| inability, but assuming the nature of a destination (one
| way or the other), in a journey we 've yet to even
| scratch the surface of, seems neither simple nor wise.
| rcoveson wrote:
| I think you've missed the point. GP is saying to _close_
| the can of worms of reasoning and rationalizing in favor
| of gut-checking things against childlike simple thinking.
| Don 't kill yourself because ~everybody who isn't
| clinically depressed or "galaxy-brained" agrees that it's
| a bad thing to do. Simple.
|
| If the self-mummifying monks took this approach, they
| would probably take a vacation from monking after their
| trains of monkish thought arrived at suicide, instead of
| going through with it.
| hosh wrote:
| I am aware of the point the commentor was trying to make,
| and I disagreed with it.
|
| While there is wisdom in that kind of innocence, in this
| case, the best we can say is that this gut check points
| to a course or action is _right for you_. However, it is
| inadequate for assessing whether it is right for anyone
| else, much less in an universal sense.
|
| If we are going to make this about listening to
| intuition, then sometimes, that gut check -- or in the
| case of those monks, it would be a _heart_ check -- the
| answer for them, in that moment, is "yes".
| rcoveson wrote:
| I hear you, but I'm sticking to this: Anybody reading
| this, monk or not, I want to go on record saying that you
| should not kill yourself, or let yourself die of
| starvation. Yes, I am presumptuous enough to make the
| claim that--at least in this one instance--I know what is
| best for somebody else. As long as you are healthy, you
| should stay alive. If your monk-reasoning disagrees, then
| there is a flaw in your monk-reasoning. I'm not learned
| enough to find it for you, but I'll still tell you that
| it's there somewhere.
| hosh wrote:
| I disagree, but I also respect your position and where
| you are coming from with this.
|
| As a note, the Meiji-era government thought the practice
| was anachronistic and depraved. They criminalized self-
| mummification. The last successful practitioner of that
| particular sect in Japan accomplished it illegally.
| https://allthatsinteresting.com/sokushinbutsu
| pyrale wrote:
| > I think you've missed the point. GP is saying to close
| the can of worms of reasoning and rationalizing in favor
| of gut-checking things against childlike simple thinking.
|
| GP is merely pushing their own belief that suicide is not
| OK. Their line of logic belongs to a self-righteous
| person that uses cheap rhetoric to claim moral
| superiority.
|
| > ~everybody
|
| Debatable...
|
| > who isn't clinically depressed or "galaxy-brained"
|
| ...And there comes the no true Scotsman.
| msm_ wrote:
| Isn't attainment of nirvana and ending the cycle of death
| and rebirth the whole point of Buddhism? To avoid the
| suffering of another incarnation? So maybe for the monks
| the ritual suicide is something their gut feeling tells
| them is right?
|
| I mean, I don't know a whole lot about Buddhist, but I
| suspect that you don't either (please correct me if I'm
| wrong). And really, is dying in peace during a religious
| ritual really so much worse than desperately clinging to
| life in hospital for the final before death, maybe
| ruining and exhausting your closest family in the
| process? Don't get me wrong, I prefer our way of life,
| but I believe you think your (our) culture is the only
| correct one, and for example refer to it as "gut-
| checking" or "childlike simple thinking". I don't think
| it's as universal and obvious as you think.
| rcoveson wrote:
| There's no Buddhism in the gut, though; at least not
| full-on nirvana Buddhism. Nor is their any orthodox
| Judaism, hardcore utilitarianism, or pauline
| Christianity. I'm talking about our ancient, shared core
| of self-preservation and empathy. The things you feel
| before you get taught to feel anything. The things that
| make us feel kinship with dogs and gorillas.
|
| So no, to answer your question, I don't know much about
| Buddhism. I don't know much about mathematics, either, at
| least not when compared to how much there is to be known.
| And yet, if I heard about a subset of mathematicians who
| believed in a proof that one was equal to zero, I'd still
| dismiss it (and them, to some extent). The same is true
| of a subset of philosophers (these particular Buddhist
| monks) who arrive at the conclusion that they should let
| their own functioning bodies die. I'm sure they've
| thought a lot about it; certainly a lot more than I have!
| But there's a thing that sometimes happens when you think
| about a problem too much, to the point of obsession: You
| can end up even further from the truth than you started.
|
| Just look at the hardcore utilitarians. Look at Ayn Rand.
| All of them know more about ethics and philosphy in
| general than I do. Doesn't mean I can't dismiss them with
| a heuristic, which I do. Why is there reverence for
| suicidal Buddhist monks in this arena, but not the
| equally-kooky Western utilitarians?
| msm_ wrote:
| > And yet, if I heard about a subset of mathematicians
| who believed in a proof that one was equal to zero, I'd
| still dismiss it (and them, to some extent).
|
| I don't want to derail the conversation, but there are
| many pretty weird and diverse ideas in mathematics,
| including finitism and ultrafinitism (where people just
| don't believe in some very large numbers), various
| subsets of peano axioms (where 1 != 0 may not be
| provable), or modular arithmetics (where 0 = 2 may be
| true).
|
| > The things you feel before you get taught to feel
| anything. The things that make us feel kinship with dogs
| and gorillas.
|
| I'm not convinced I should listen the Things absolutely.
| The Things often tell me to hit someone annoying in the
| face, eat exclusively very caloric and fat food, and seek
| sexual gratification with every female of age around me.
| I don't think the Things are as smart as you give them
| the credit for.
|
| > (...) who arrive at the conclusion that they should let
| their own functioning bodies die.
|
| What about:
|
| - Medieval old people, who just left for the woods when
| they felt they're getting old and are a burden on the
| family.
|
| - Mothers sacrificing their life for their children
|
| - Strong and healthy males on Titanic who, despite their
| physical superiority, decided to let women and children
| first
|
| - People fighting in war/guerilla for their country or
| their beliefs
| rcoveson wrote:
| > I don't want to derail the conversation, but there are
| many pretty weird and diverse ideas in mathematics,
| including finitism and ultrafinitism (where people just
| don't believe in some very large numbers), various
| subsets of peano axioms (where 1 != 0 may not be
| provable), or modular arithmetics (where 0 = 2 may be
| true).
|
| That's not really what I'm talking about. I'm imagining
| somebody who is so sure of their own mathematical
| reasoning skills that upon proving to themselves that the
| number one, in its simplest sense, was equal to the
| number zero, they started behaving as though this were
| the case. Perhaps going mad and (in good service of the
| analogy I'm making) killing themselves.
|
| > I'm not convinced I should listen the Things
| absolutely. The Things often tell me to hit someone
| annoying in the face, eat exclusively very caloric and
| fat food, and seek sexual gratification with every female
| of age around me. I don't think the Things are as smart
| as you give them the credit for.
|
| FWIW I think everything you're listing has some amount of
| instinctive conflict. Violence requires you to disable
| empathy. Chronic gluttony eventually requires you to turn
| off your ego and hate yourself. These are conflicts that
| (apologies for leaning heavily on this point, but it's
| kind of central) pretty much everybody, from a very young
| age, learns about and has to work through.
|
| The red flag is when you arrive through cold reasoning
| alone at a conclusion that makes no sense to any of your
| instincts, as evidenced by the fact that the average
| person off the street is completely bewildered by your
| conclusion. Like the idea that you should starve yourself
| for no other reason than that you have freed your spirit
| of all desire.
|
| > What about... [four moral case studies]
|
| Moral conflicts are still moral conflicts. Killing to
| avoid killing, violence to avoid violence. In the more
| difficult cases, perhaps even killing to avoid non-lethal
| violence (e.g. slavery), or even suicide to avoid extreme
| pain or the moral paralysis of your family members. Yet
| again, the sorts of decisions that people actually have
| to make with some regularity. The sorts of things we feel
| we need to teach children about, as they become adults.
|
| Suicide for purely ascetic reasons is not a moral
| conflict. From an unlearned perspective, it's just
| wasteful and bizarre. It seems to be the ethical
| equivalent of the mathematician going mad after
| incorrectly proving to himself that one apple was
| equivalent to zero apples.
| hosh wrote:
| This reminds me of this beautiful story I heard. I don't
| remember from where (probably a memoir of a shamanistic
| practitioner). This story took place somewhere in Africa,
| among a people whose custom and practice was that when
| someone knows in their heart their time is done, they'd
| walk out into the wasteland to die alone, with the
| blessing of their community.
|
| An NGO volunteer working with that community found out
| about an elder doing that walk. She went off looking for
| the elder, and found her. Sobbed and begged her to not do
| this.
|
| The beauty I see in this story isn't one where it ends
| with the NGO volunteer somehow convincing the elder to
| live longer. But rather, that of an elder, knowing that
| the time has come, and all those loose ends have been
| tied, the words have been spoken, resolving all the
| regrets and longings, at that last moment of stillness as
| profound as witnessing a birth, the elder took the time
| to comfort and guide a stranger to their ways. A child
| born in a culture who have lost the wisdom of death. And
| this elder, passes one more wisdom as a gift. The NGO
| volunteer thought she was saving the elder, but it was
| the elder saving the NGO volunteer.
|
| As a contrast there is this story that took place here in
| America, something I'll never forget. My wife and I
| visited my wife's grandmother when my son was about 6
| months old. My grandmother-in-law was in bad health,
| having survived some major medical interventions where
| she is now on a highly restricted kidney diet and
| constant pain. We took the trip so that my grandmother-
| in-law has a chance to hold her great-grandson, and my
| son has a chance to connect with his great-grandmother,
| even if he will probably never remember it.
|
| I remember when my grandmother-in-law, spoke in a voice
| on the verge of breaking, that she didn't know how long
| she could keep going. And I remember my wife telling her,
| to hang on for a few more years, because we were planning
| on raising another one. And my grandmother-in-law then
| said to herself, "ok, there will be another one ..." She
| continued living to see another two great-grandchildren
| from the extended family, and if things work out, another
| one this summer.
|
| You just never know, just poking at the surface. It's
| easy to try to fit things in our comfortable narrative
| frames. Dealing with and surviving the death of another
| is no easy thing, and yet, there's great wisdom within
| those experiences.
| plugin-baby wrote:
| > assess whether what you are doing in life genuinely
| appears to be good or bad at a very surface, kindergarten
| level
|
| Tell me you're vegetarian without telling me.
| deepfriedchokes wrote:
| If your ego is so large that you think you're enlightened,
| you probably aren't.
| brookst wrote:
| Also if you don't think you're enlightened, you probably
| aren't.
| toxik wrote:
| That's what always bothered me about Plato's cave.
| deepfriedchokes wrote:
| It's caves inside of caves all the way down.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| The idea of the cave is egotistical?
| toxik wrote:
| I thought it implied that Plato meant philosophers more
| truly see the things as they are and not their shadows,
| and that to me sounds a bit fancy.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| It implies the existence of a mind/thoughts/etc. that
| transcend the material.
| detrites wrote:
| Or, is it mental illness to think death or suicide must be
| avoided at any and all cost? Death is inevitable and a
| natural part of the cycle of reality. Why should we care if
| someone's happy believing they ascend somewhere by
| suiciding?
|
| Someone could just as well believe that typing letters into
| a machine and waiting for more to appear from someone else
| you've never met on the other side of the world is a form
| of mental illness, or a type of spiritual suicide.
|
| Some people may believe the entirety of modern life and
| many of its trappings are a form of mass insanity. And
| who's to say they're wrong?
| B1FF_PSUVM wrote:
| > a type of spiritual suicide
|
| Or putting other people's words in your brain could be
| considered somewhat icky ...
| voakbasda wrote:
| While I agree this borders on the literally insane, that
| line of thinking starts down a slippery slope. At what
| point do we consider any religious beliefs that have
| deleterious effects on oneself to be mental illness? I
| still believe in self-determination, even if that
| determination leads to killing oneself.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| Arbitrary societal consensus is how.
|
| It doesn't seem too wild to use irrational belief in
| something (faith) to make oneself happier through tough
| times.
|
| It does seem wild to spend your final days in a pit alone
| until you starve/dehydrate to death painfully.
| throwawaymaths wrote:
| Starvation is quite euphoric. After about three days of
| not eating I feel fantastic.
| itisamentalill wrote:
| [flagged]
| voakbasda wrote:
| Again, while I agree with this sentiment, I think self-
| determination should still win the day. It is far too
| easy to be labeled as mentally ill and be committed to
| unwanted treatment. That has been tried in the past, and
| it never ends well. If someone is mentally ill and
| refuses treatment, that needs to be respected, up to the
| point that their beliefs begin to cause harm to others.
|
| Of course, that conclusion begs further questions. Should
| unwelcome proselytizing be considered an attempt to do
| harm? Should it be permissible to indoctrinate children
| into religion? These are not easy questions to answer
| without grossly infringing some individuals' rights to
| free speech and religion.
| michaelmrose wrote:
| > At what point do we consider any religious beliefs that
| have deleterious effects on oneself to be mental illness?
|
| Religion is basically always a socially acceptable mental
| illness that we not only tolerated but encouraged because
| it has been a part of civilization since before we formed
| the basic premises for what constitutes a civilization.
| lazide wrote:
| For any society to exist, we have to pick something to
| believe in. And anything we pick, will have contrary
| evidence or not make sense at least _some_ of the time.
|
| That doesn't make it an illness, unless it produces
| massively negative outcomes.
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| It's perfectly normal to have imaginary friends
| (especially when you have no one else to help get you
| through rough times).
| sillysaurusx wrote:
| It's an interesting question. Personally I think the line
| is whether you're harming anyone else.
|
| If someone wants to amputate their own hand, for example,
| it seems hard to argue that they shouldn't be allowed to.
| But it does depend whether they're mentally sound; you
| wouldn't want to let someone who's clearly suffering an
| illness do that.
|
| It's... tricky. I try to err on the side of personal
| freedoms though.
| jrussino wrote:
| > But it does depend whether they're mentally sound
|
| Where we draw the line on "mentally sound" is a social
| construct, right? I can't really wrap my head around
| somebody wanting to amputate their own hand and at the
| same time being considered "mentally sound" by the people
| around them.
|
| > If someone wants to amputate their own hand, for
| example, it seems hard to argue that they shouldn't be
| allowed to
|
| I just don't get this. I suppose it hinges on what you
| mean by "allowed to". Maybe there's an argument to be
| made around personal bodily autonomy, that as a society
| we decide we don't want the government to compel us not
| to do things like this? But if someone I loved expressed
| to me that they wanted to harm themself I would do
| whatever I could to convince them not to. If one of my
| kids tried to chop off their hand for no good reason I
| would do everything I could to prevent it.
| gobengo wrote:
| > At what point do we consider this a mental illness
|
| usually when the patient complains or harms someone else,
| and not before
| hinkley wrote:
| The old line about crazy people not worrying if they're
| crazy is not entirely accurate but a lack of self-
| reflection on your mental state is a pretty big givaway.
| hosh wrote:
| Yeah. That indicates "mental illness" is not about the
| mental well-being of the person, but how much negative
| societal impact that person has with the people around
| them.
| [deleted]
| TheLoafOfBread wrote:
| What if you are mentally ill by not practicing this ritual
| and they were actually the normal ones?
| Dudeman112 wrote:
| "It" can't be normal by definition if only a handful of
| people were "it" in the whole history of mankind
| hammyhavoc wrote:
| I'd go quite willingly. I'd probably enjoy it.
| qwertox wrote:
| Really? The no-sun condition would drive me insane.
| hnlmorg wrote:
| Some parts of the world can go without sunlight for months
| on end (and constant daylight at the opposite time of
| year).
|
| Personally I've gone a week without sunlight and rather
| enjoyed it.
|
| Not taking anything away from yourself or others. Just
| making a point that's it's not that unusual for people to
| live without the sun for extended periods.
| Dudeman112 wrote:
| You mean the parts of the world where seasonal affective
| disorders are a blight on their society?
|
| Personally I severely underestimated the effect of large
| periods of time without sunlight, before going through it
| myself
| hnlmorg wrote:
| I don't really understand why people have taken such an
| objection to my comment. It's factually accurate.
|
| I'm not suggesting that SAD isn't a real thing either.
| Clearly there's even a lot of research into it. In fact I
| have a few friends who suffer from it. But SAD was never
| my point.
|
| the point behind my post was just stating that plenty of
| people do live without the sun for extended periods and
| thus this article isn't an isolated incident.
|
| And literally the only reason I made such a point was
| because the GP seemed surprised that someone might live
| that way.
|
| Edit: By the way, I'd love to see some statistics to back
| up your "blight" statement. Because there's plenty of
| stats that rank Nordic counties highly in happiness and
| good mental health despite them having longer and darker
| winter months.
|
| Eg https://www.psycom.net/depression-central-
| html/depression-ce...
|
| I don't dispute cases of SAD would be higher in such
| countries (I haven't personally run the figures) but
| equally I suspect your actual statement isn't a fair
| reflection of the real situation either.
| hammyhavoc wrote:
| I'm not insignificantly of Scandi descent on both sides
| of my family, so I dare say that accounts for something
| in terms of feelings towards light. There's Cypriot,
| Sudanese and Ashkenazi Jewish too, but heavily Scandi.
|
| I do enjoy sunlight, but a lack of it isn't the end of
| the world for me. The world keeps on spinning, I don't
| become dysfunctional from a lack of light, though my mood
| is elevated by it like anybody.
|
| Thinking about it for a few hours, yes, I would happily
| go and live in a cave for a few years. Wouldn't want to
| spend my entire life there as I feel I'd miss out, but
| yes, wouldn't bother me much. I'm very comfortable with
| being on my own.
| kube-system wrote:
| It affects some people, but not all.
|
| I suspect this is something that researchers would be
| interested in regarding the person in this article as
| well, given their statements.
| qwertox wrote:
| It's probably because I associate it with being outside.
| Specially in the summer it feels so good, also the odors
| of the woods and fields, the green and yellow colors. To
| me the winter is super depressing, even though I go out
| every day for at least an hour. The colors are dead, the
| sun rarely shines, so for me the sun is what gives all my
| senses so much to enjoy, also because of what it does to
| the environment.
|
| But regarding those communities which do have extended
| periods of missing sunlight, they do have bars and other
| places where they meet and feel some warmth, and will
| always have the thought of this state being over in a
| couple of months. I guess they mostly do it because the
| nature imposes it on them.
| jdmtheNth wrote:
| She's the type of person you want to send to Mars.
| rurban wrote:
| Mars will be much harder.
|
| No chance to survive, hard radiation, rescue would need at
| least a year.
| kzrdude wrote:
| Mars has sunlight and a more inspiring mission
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| So does Antarctica. She'd die there alone as well.
| qup wrote:
| She'd die in this cave alone!
|
| She can still be the kind of person you want to send to
| Mars.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Water shields can mitigate the radiation damage.
| jkubicek wrote:
| > Beatriz Flamini... said by her support team to have broken a
| world record for the longest time spent in a cave in an
| experiment closely monitored by scientists seeking to learn more
| about the capacities of the human mind and circadian rhythms.
|
| I wonder what the previous record for longest time spent in a
| cave in an experiment closely monitored by scientists seeking to
| learn more about the capacities of the human mind and circadian
| rhythms was?
| yazzku wrote:
| Not to undermine this, but:
|
| > with no contact with the outside world
|
| > Flamini was monitored by a group of psychologists, researchers,
| speleologists -- specialists in the study of caves -- and
| physical trainers who watched her every move and monitored her
| physical and mental well-being.
|
| The knowledge that somebody is out there watching you changes the
| whole thing completely. What exactly was this study supposed to
| find?
| Asparagirl wrote:
| Some of the previous recordholders were at least 38 Ukrainian
| Jews, including three families (Stermer, Dodyk, and Wexler) and
| some very young children, who survived the Holocaust by hiding in
| the Ozerna caves ("Priest's Grotto") in Ternopil oblast, western
| Ukraine, for 344 days.
|
| Most of the survivors moved to the US after the war. The story
| was only fairly recently recorded and turned into a documentary
| film, "No Place on Earth".
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Place_on_Earth
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest%27s_Grotto
| hammyhavoc wrote:
| Wow, great recommendation on the doc. Will check that out.
| edpichler wrote:
| It was voluntarily. Incredible, of course, but the title is a bit
| misleading.
| [deleted]
| TriNetra wrote:
| A sublime experience extracted from [0] by a monk, living for 100
| days in complete solitude doing sadhana (meditative practice) in
| a makeshift hut on icy Himalayan mountain/forest (2011),
| attaining realization during this final phase of his sadhana:
|
| > I had to learn how to absorb the powerful energies flowing
| through me. Thus, I decided to enter strict solitude for a
| hundred days. I needed this time to absorb the vision.
|
| > I informed Pradeep about my plan and his meticulous management
| made it possible. I changed my routine and began meditating from
| 7 p.m. until 4 a.m. If, once or twice a month, the villagers
| passed this way for hay, Pradeep would tell them to keep
| absolutely quiet. They maintained both distance and silence.
| During this period, I neither met nor saw anyone. Pradeep would
| wake up at 1 a.m., take a bath, say his prayers and prepare my
| meal before 4 a.m. He would come to the little temple near my
| hut, ring a bell and hide behind the temple wall so that we did
| not see each other. I would then step out and go to his hut for
| my meal. Eating would take me nearly an hour because it was
| nothing short of a ritual for me. It was an opportunity to
| express my gratitude to Mother Nature, to the farmers who
| produced the grain and to Pradeep who cooked it. The digestive
| fire in the stomach is called vaishvanara. I would offer every
| bite to this fire, akin to the fire offering in a yajna. I still
| do, for that matter.
|
| > While I was gone, Pradeep would wait for me quietly or refill
| the water bucket in my hut. He'd also fix the tarpaulin on the
| roof in case a storm had blown it about at night. If I needed to
| communicate something, I wrote a note and left it in his hut.
|
| > Towards the end of March, I felt a shooting pain near my
| kidney. I was startled because I had already perfected my posture
| and wasn't expecting any more pains. I'd already been through
| excruciating knee pains, severe backaches, a tired body and
| aching arms and shoulders. What was this new pain? The middle
| plank of my bed had completely sunk, making it an uneven and
| unsuitable surface to sit on; perhaps my posture was the cause of
| the pain. I placed my pillow on the plank but this didn't help. I
| took an hour out of my sleep time and did some yoga asanas to
| stretch my body; this alleviated the pain just a little. It was
| becoming impossible for me to sit still for hours at a time,
| which is what I needed to do. I wasn't going to give up on my
| 150-day meditation though; I had to get rid of this pain.
| Reflecting on the pain, it occurred to me that I hadn't seen the
| sun for nearly two-and- a-half months. I took my morning meals
| when it was still dark. I used to step out occasionally during
| the day, but I hadn't been out at all in the sunlight for nearly
| ten weeks now. I had been living in an extremely cold hut and
| didn't use a fire to warm myself. The next day, instead of yoga,
| I spread a mat and sat outside with my back towards the sun. That
| night the pain subsided to a large extent. I repeated the process
| for the next few days and the pain disappeared. I would never
| know what really caused it, but sitting in the sun relieved it.
|
| > Enjoying the sweetness of solitude, diving deep into the ocean
| of a still mind, I passed my days in deep meditation and crystal-
| clear awareness. I was acutely aware of everything around me: the
| sounds of hornets and wasps, a spider crawling on the wall, every
| drop of rain that fell. Any thought that emerged in my mind would
| not go unnoticed. This was truly an extraordinary level of
| awareness. My intuitive faculties entered a new dimension. No
| matter what question I thought of, an inner voice gave me the
| answer. One day, during meditation, the same inner voice
| instructed me to visit Kamakhya temple. I would get sarvoch
| tantric diksha, the highest tantric initiation there, it said. I
| was reminded of Bhairavi Ma who had foretold this in Badrinath. I
| decided to visit Kamakhya after the completion of my sadhana.
| But, right now, I simply lived in the present moment. I was the a
| boat sailing in an ocean of bliss; actually, I was the ocean of
| bliss itself.
|
| > The silence within me was beyond description. Just as you churn
| milk and it turns into butter, and that butter can never become
| milk again, my mind had reached an irreversible state of peace
| and joy. I felt that to remain unaffected, no matter what the
| circumstances, to be unmoved by someone's birth, death,
| acceptance, rejection, praise or criticism--this sense of
| dispassion and detachment was arising from within me, without any
| effort. I opened my notepad and scribbled in it: 'Self-
| realization is not an instantaneous act. We may have an aha
| moment but it is mindfulness that allows us to navigate the world
| with the utmost awareness of our verbal, mental and physical
| actions. It is one thing to grasp that we are not just the body,
| but it is another thing altogether not to react when someone
| hurts us. We may recognize that anger destroys our peace of mind,
| but to remain calm, no matter how strong the provocation--that is
| real realization. Why did it take the Buddha six years to achieve
| liberation? If it was an instantaneous thing, he could have had
| it in the first month. It took Mahavira ten years and Ramakrishna
| Paramahamsa twelve years. The experiences, lessons, insights add
| up, finally bringing one to the point of realization. Water boils
| at 100 degrees Celsius but it takes a little while to get to that
| temperature. The flame that heats the water already holds the
| potential to burn as powerfully as the sun, but it is the water
| that needs to come to a boil. The soul or consciousness is ever
| pure; it is the conscious mind that needs to reach boiling point,
| while the subconscious has to imbibe the insights and the
| learning.
|
| 0: https://www.amazon.com/If-Truth-Be-Told-A-Monks-Memoir-Om-
| Sw...
| aksss wrote:
| Had he an eagle and a snake as companions?
| Votearome wrote:
| [flagged]
| karaterobot wrote:
| The cave was infested by flies at one point. That'd be my cue to
| leave -- imagine just being swarmed by flies in the dark, with
| nowhere to go, nothing else to think about -- but good on her I
| guess.
| pvaldes wrote:
| Chironomids probably. They swarm and have short lives of days
| or hours, don't eat and are tiny and harmless, so probably more
| a welcomed change to the numbing routine than real nuissance.
| gspencley wrote:
| I haven't watched any of her videos but it might not have been
| quite _that_ bad. She would have had a camp set up, if not
| multiple. It really depends how deep the cave is. If it 's too
| deep for one person to carry all the supplies needed then
| multiple base camps are set up along the way to serve, among
| other things, as supply stations. The article didn't speak to
| this but I assume she was provided with food at the adjacent
| base camp because how else did she get food if she had no human
| contact and never left the cave?
|
| So it's safe to assume that at her personal camp she had a tent
| and other provisions. Flies can get into the tent, of course,
| but it would keep most of them out. I think the worst part
| would be feeling "trapped" inside of the tent while waiting out
| the infestation.
| thatwasunusual wrote:
| To be fair, the cave was infested by a human for 500 days.
| ape4 wrote:
| What about the prehistoric CAVE men?! They might have spent more
| time in a cave.
| titzer wrote:
| Not to take away from her accomplishment, but the psychological
| context of being watched 24/7 is different than being alone. Very
| different.
| dmckeon wrote:
| Similar previous research:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefania_Follini spent 130 days
| underground, isolated from external clues about time and
| circadian rhythms. Her sleep cycle lengthened a lot.
| jgilias wrote:
| Super interesting, thanks for sharing! The 20/10 wake/sleep
| cycle sounds close to how I might function if it wasn't for
| daylight cycles and social obligations. Actually, mostly the
| latter.
| f_allwein wrote:
| Have you tried this? https://xkcd.com/320/
| jgilias wrote:
| I can't, there's some short people living in my house that
| depend on me waking up before them to wake them up and
| bring to places. But I've always been curious about people
| doing non-standard sleep things, have you tried it? Can you
| share some experiences?
| ekimekim wrote:
| I've been on a 28h day for about a decade now. It's
| completely changed my life. I used to be tired all the
| time and end up napping during the day, sleeping through
| lectures, etc. Only to get home and be unable to sleep
| until the early hours of the morning. Now I can get a
| good night's sleep every "night" (I aim for 8 hours every
| 28, in practice I get to bed a little early and sleep in,
| so it's more like 9 on average) and don't get tired until
| the last 4 hours or so before bedtime.
|
| Besides the big one, some other positives:
|
| - Lack of a single time zone means I can participate in
| international work/online communities regardless of
| location
|
| - Jet lag is mostly not a thing, since my schedule is
| independent of where the sun is
|
| - Plenty of quiet time while everyone else is asleep. I
| live in a very safe area and love going on 2am walks in
| the park with the entire thing all to myself.
|
| And some negatives:
|
| - My social life suffers a lot. I can only attend events
| if they happen to fall on a day of the week where I'm
| awake at that time. Right now this is mitigated somewhat
| because I'm living in Australia but working at US working
| hours, which means my weekend schedule lines up with
| "local time". So I tend to see local friends mostly on
| weekends.
|
| - Requires flexible working hours, as it's not possible
| to be awake from 9-5 for 5 days in a row no matter what
| start point you pick for your schedule. From my coworkers
| perspective, I come in early on mondays (ending around
| their midday) and late on fridays (starting around their
| midday).
|
| - At larger companies where they may want to do a "follow
| the sun" on call rotation (so you're only on call during
| your waking hours), I don't fit in anywhere because my
| waking hours aren't always the same.
|
| - During winter, the lack of sunlight (since you're
| sleeping through it half the time) can get to you after a
| while.
|
| - Anything that you're meant to do "daily" you either
| need to stretch to doing every 28hr instead, or have some
| complex accounting to do to ensure you do it once per 24h
| period (I mostly opt for the former).
|
| (edited for formatting)
| joshuahedlund wrote:
| Thanks for sharing, I had not heard of that - that has
| fascinating implications for humans inhabiting planets with
| different rotation periods! (I'm surprised I haven't seen that
| explored in more sci-fi)
| teleforce wrote:
| The myth that any ancient human or mammal did live permanently
| inside caves need to be stopped because it's just not feasible.
|
| People throughout history just use caves as temporary shelter and
| dwellings enroute to a permanent destination.
|
| EDIT: Bat is an exception to this but bat is the only mammal that
| fly
| sandworm101 wrote:
| I cannot believe this is a record. Throughout history there have
| been countless religiously-motivated persons who have lived
| isolated existences, many in caves. Surely some monk somewhere
| lived below ground for more than two years at a go.
| crazygringo wrote:
| It probably isn't, in the sense of it happening previously.
|
| But "longest record" is usually shorthand for "longest
| _documented_ record ", and indeed documented _credibly_.
| NoboruWataya wrote:
| Isn't that literally the meaning of a "record"?
| sandworm101 wrote:
| In Guinness context, "record" is no doubt defined in terms
| of some trademark registrations. Any rising competitor
| "recording" world records would probably be defending
| themselves in court rather quickly.
| titzer wrote:
| You're kidding, right? The olympics do not enter their
| records with the Guinness corporation.
| brookst wrote:
| There's ambiguity in the word, as far as whether there is
| official auditable documentation somewhere or merely word
| of mouth / apocryphal "records"
| starik36 wrote:
| Jewish mystic Shimon bar Yochai and his son, supposedly spent
| 13 years hiding in a cave.
|
| https://www.britannica.com/biography/Shimon-bar-Yochai
| tssva wrote:
| The article doesn't say they never left the cave during this
| time. It does mention them surviving by eating dates and the
| fruit of the carob tree which likely means they left their
| hiding place in the cave upon occasion to gather them.
| johndhi wrote:
| Good call. Ajanta caves in India had isolated rooms where monks
| supposedly spent long long times. I believe Mahavira (Jain
| saint) was supposed to have isolated for 12 years at one
| point..
| valarauko wrote:
| The Ajanta caves were monasteries, but they still had contact
| with each other. The monks would also have responsibilities
| and chores to do around the site, plus interaction with the
| lay public who bought offerings, and presumably with visiting
| aristocrats and officials who paid for their upkeep.
| mach1ne wrote:
| But there weren't Guinness judges around for that.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| Nor the credit cards necessary to put deposits down prior to
| the record attempt.
|
| "To enable us to continue to be a part of thousands of
| personal achievement journeys, we can only provide access to
| use services such as an official adjudicator through our
| _fee-based Consultancy service._ "
|
| https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/records/faqs
| drstewart wrote:
| So? Is this meant to be some kind of gotcha?
|
| My guess is that both your old life as an attorney and
| current life as a IT/IP consultant involve some kind of
| "fee-based Consultancy services"
| staringback wrote:
| Guinness world records is a publicity/marketing company,
| not a record keeping company.
| mxmilkiib wrote:
| https://youtu.be/0twDETh6QaI had a great side thread on
| that topic
| sandworm101 wrote:
| >> current life as a IT/IP consultant
|
| Lol. If you are going to get personal, at least read to
| the end of the bio. I am 100% definitely not any form of
| IT consultant.
| kortilla wrote:
| Taints the meaning of holding the record when you have to
| pay for it.
| kube-system wrote:
| at some level, the act of record keeping requires time
| and materials.
| rurban wrote:
| Guinness judges are just local, independent experts. She had
| enough of them. But she had to leave the cave for a few days,
| not mentioned there.
| thatwasunusual wrote:
| If a record falls, and no one is around...
| skilled wrote:
| It looks impressive at first glance, but it's really not that
| impressive.
|
| It sounds like everything had been taken care of for her, which
| simply means the person was "crazy" enough to commit herself to
| an experience that a lot of people either wouldn't want to do, or
| didn't have the time to do. The article does not mention it, but
| I am sure this person has her life structured in a way where she
| was able to (financial and responsibility wise) do this without a
| second thought because "being quiet" is also part of her
| personality.
|
| Not to discount her record or anything, but it's nothing more
| than a record.
|
| ---
|
| I don't mind the downvotes btw, but let me just point out that
| Yogis live in caves for 30 years at a time, and good luck earning
| their trust to let some scientists monitor real changes in the
| mind.
|
| And these Yogis do so without any assistance from the external
| world. That sounds a bit more impressive to me.
| nemo44x wrote:
| > Not to discount her record or anything,
|
| You just spent the previous paragraph and opening line
| literally discounting it.
| skilled wrote:
| Yeah because it's nothing but a record. Not sure what else
| you want me to say.
|
| Feel free to enlighten me if it is something else. The
| article does not mention it.
| nemo44x wrote:
| Your statement was what it was and it's fine. It's just
| strange to read all that and then have your next line state
| what it states, which is the opposite of everything it is
| referencing.
| skilled wrote:
| Read again what I am referencing.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| What _is_ impressive?
| skilled wrote:
| See edit.
| tssva wrote:
| > let me just point out that Yogis live in caves for 30 years
| at a time
|
| Yogis well known to leave their caves in order to gather picnic
| baskets.
| skilled wrote:
| Doesn't sound all that impressive.
| vlunkr wrote:
| Was the point to impress, or to be a research subject?
| skilled wrote:
| But was it really to be a research subject? My guess is that
| no, it was not. And I am confident in that guess because I
| understand people and people's behavior.
|
| And if you read the article, there is no mention of any
| conclusive research or any insight at all. But I guess it
| must have been _exactly_ 500 days for her to be in that cave
| for the scientists to finally start drawing some conclusions.
| vlunkr wrote:
| > And I am confident in that guess because I understand
| people and people's behavior.
|
| How am I supposed to respond seriously to an assertion like
| that?
| skilled wrote:
| You're not supposed to respond to it I guess. If you'd
| like me to talk about introversion in the context of this
| article I would be more than happy to do it.
|
| I really don't understand why you felt the need to
| respond at all considering that I have my argument well
| under control.
| exolymph wrote:
| All of that is pretty fucking impressive? Why do you feel like
| the appropriate comparison point is lifelong dedicated yogis
| rather than normals
| skilled wrote:
| What comparison? My original statement stands.
| alfor wrote:
| That's what I thought too, many monks and nuns did way more as
| religious devotion.
| renewiltord wrote:
| That's nothing. I've lived in a cave for 125 years and without
| contact with the world. Unfortunately, I came out on April
| Fools' Day a couple of years ago so no one believed me. Next
| day I made a Hacker News account. Now that's impressive. Not
| this puny yogi shit.
| [deleted]
| sam36 wrote:
| I think the key here is "voluntarily".
|
| Everyone is built different, I think I would have done good in a
| similar situation. I'm already an introvert, but having kids, a
| wife and bills to pay sometimes just gets overwhelming. I have a
| friend that has been in and out of jail for the last 10 years or
| so. We talk a few times a year (at my expense) and I hate to
| admit I sometimes get jealous. Every time he gets out, he goes
| right back to his old self: smoking, drugging, and missing parole
| meetings until finally a warrant is issued. I would think I would
| emerge from a jail cell full of newly gained wisdom. I'd reenter
| the world a master plumber, HVAC tech, CPA, and maybe even
| psychologist. Heck might even have some wonderful startup ideas.
| But in the current grind of things, I feel I have no room for
| self improvement or learning.
| gspencley wrote:
| > I'm already an introvert, but having kids, a wife and bills
| to pay sometimes just gets overwhelming.
|
| It took me years to become self-aware enough to understand who
| and what I am.
|
| I love my daughters to death, now grown up, but I wish I could
| have been older and wiser when we had them so I could have done
| a much better job raising them.
|
| Living in a small house with 3 other people, two of them noise-
| making children, on top of working from home (I was self-
| employed for 15 years) was very difficult for all of us and
| nearly killed me (literally). Had I understood why noise
| bothered me so much, why I needed time and space to myself, and
| why my anger issues were likely autistic meltdowns I think we
| could have made things work so much better and found a way to
| give our daughters a much happier and less stressful childhood.
|
| This is one of the great things about the Internet. I was able
| to discover what introversion is, what high-functioning
| autism/aspergers is (no, I've never been diagnosed but even my
| mother tells me that it would explain my entire childhood),
| that other people go through this too and how to have these
| types of conversations with the people closest to you.
|
| I'm very lucky to have a wife as patient and understanding as I
| do. We were high-school sweethearts and she went through the
| learning and discovery process with me.
|
| I can't help you with how to make the time for self improvement
| and learning, but do know that it's not just you.
| Kiro wrote:
| What's going on with this website? When I click the link I end up
| in an app but I have no such app installed on my phone (Android).
| I've never seen this before. It's not AMP and there's no URL bar.
| It also transitions in a way that normally only happens when you
| go from the browser to an app.
| cubefox wrote:
| It's a so-called instant app. Basically a website in Form of an
| app.
| louison11 wrote:
| I am REALLY curious about any shift in her view of reality,
| specifically any potential emergence of spiritual views, or the
| likes. Many ancient traditions have forms of "vision questing"
| involving usually a few days fasting in solitude. And those tend
| to provide the "questers" with profound insights (without any
| substance, only the interruption of day-to-day patterns). Similar
| with 10-day meditation retreats. Sadly the article doesn't touch
| on this - but that'd be my first interest knowing she's spent 500
| days down there.
| [deleted]
| whitepaint wrote:
| How did she get food?
| valarauko wrote:
| She had a support team above ground monitoring her, and would
| send her supplies and remove waste.
| yrral wrote:
| Any preliminary data about her sleep schedule? I was hoping the
| article would say something about that.
| ahmedfromtunis wrote:
| This is offtopic.
|
| To read the article I had to wait for the Play Store install an
| "instant app" that looks exactly like the website.
|
| But when I tried to watch the video embedded, it told me that I
| needed to install the "full" app.
|
| Why go through all of this when a good ol' website would've been
| more than enough?
| rascul wrote:
| I tried in both Firefox and Chrome on my Android phone. I
| didn't get prompted to install an app, Play Store didn't come
| up, I could read the article and play the videos fine in the
| browser.
|
| I wonder if maybe I disabled something that caused the behavior
| you saw.
| ahmedfromtunis wrote:
| I'm using Chrome. And it didn't prompt me for anything.
|
| I clicked on the link, the page was open in Chrome for a
| split second before a new screen labelled Play Store took
| over.
|
| Of course I could've just cancelled it during the 10 seconds
| or so it took install this "instant app" but I was curious
| about this new thing. I genuinely expected and wanted to test
| what I assumed would be an improved experience.
|
| I was wrong.
| thatguy0900 wrote:
| I've never used them. Are these apps ever actually a
| notably better experience? I always just assume it makes
| them more money so I've always backed out of those pages.
| cubefox wrote:
| Same for me, Android on a tablet.
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