[HN Gopher] Displaying My Washing Machine's Remaining Time with ...
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Displaying My Washing Machine's Remaining Time with Curl, Jq, and
Pizauth
Author : ltratt
Score : 163 points
Date : 2023-04-12 07:37 UTC (15 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (tratt.net)
(TXT) w3m dump (tratt.net)
| matthew-wegner wrote:
| I use a zigbee smart outlet with power monitoring for this. If
| it's using power for awhile, set to washing. If power has been
| zero for awhile, and it's washing, set to done (and send text-to-
| speech event that goes out on all house speakers).
|
| This is a little Node-RED flow on top of Home Assistant.
| idatum wrote:
| I use CT (current) sensors on the circuits for both washer and
| dryer and a small XBee ZigBee device using its ADC pins to
| transmit the current readings. On the server with an XBee
| coordinator, I use a moving average window to cover points
| where the washer or dryer use very little current. It's then
| pretty easy to detect on/off, and even where the current cycle
| is. The obligatory Home Assistant integration notifies
| household members.
|
| Plotting the dryer data, you can see how it works. The heating
| element turns on for a period, then turns off and the humidity
| is most likely read at that point. The gap between periods of
| the heating element on increases, and the heating length of
| time decreases, until if stops spinning. Cool DIY project.
| hcaz wrote:
| This is a clever way to make non smart appliances smart, it
| works for washers, dryers, dishwashers etc. You could even use
| this to detect when a dehumidifier fills its tank and stops
| itself.
| iengae wrote:
| This! I am doing a similar thing with only Home Assistant, i.e.
| without Node RED. No need for ,,smart" appliances and reverse
| engineering their protocols if all you want is to be notified
| when the washing cycle is over.
| fanatic2pope wrote:
| A simpler solution might be to use a smart plug to monitor the
| current being drawn by the appliance and then just notify and
| turn off when it is done. I do variations of this kind of thing
| (using sonoff S31's flashed with tasmota) and it works quite
| well.
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| My 33 year old Kenmore washing machine works well and is easily
| repaired (proof: i have done so, twice).
|
| It would be nice to get one of these newer contraptions, but I
| really have no desire to join the planned obsolescence treadmill.
| styxit wrote:
| I had the same issue, unfortunately my washing machine does not
| have an API. I used a raspberry Pi with a camera, using OCR i was
| able to detect the remaining time from the display. Having an API
| like this would have been so much easier.
|
| I did create an opensource web app so you are able to see your
| remaining time, laundry history, and get (push/mail)
| notifications. Since you only need to push the remaining seconds
| to an http endpoint it probably is easy to use with the solution
| described in the article.
|
| https://github.com/styxit/laundry-admin
| jve wrote:
| For "I'm done" notification, I use relay with power metering -
| looking at the power pattern, home assistant can be set up for
| notification after x time when that graph drops to floor.
| dicknuckle wrote:
| Shelly has a few relays with power metering and they offer
| lots of local-first and open ways of communicating. I use one
| to control power to my 3d printer.
| bartkappenburg wrote:
| Exactly, that's also my setup. Works as a charm! The power
| meter is a zwave switch which sits between the socket and the
| washing machine.
| sgerenser wrote:
| Same here. I'm sitting here reading stuff about reporting
| time remaining and wondering why that matters? Isn't the
| concern just when its done?
|
| I got one of these: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08LN3C7WK .
| Connected it to my HomeBridge server (all local), set up a
| push notification using when the energy drops below 5 watts
| (which happens about 1-2 minutes after the cycle ends).
| shmoogy wrote:
| I setup a power monitor that resets a 5 min timer every
| time the power usage goes over X. It would still be nice
| to have an idea of how much time is left - I've
| considered setting up a pi-camera to OCR the display.
| mft_ wrote:
| Tangent, but how did you handle lighting for the camera? I'm
| intermittently working on something similar to read a gas
| meter, but am struggling to find a way of lighting the digits
| sufficiently, while not leaving reflections on plastic over the
| digits. I've tried Pi-controlled LEDs and a smart bulb, with
| little success, so far.
| zombielinux wrote:
| Try switching your spectrum. I bet that plastic is
| transparent in UV or Infrared and with some minor camera
| surgery, you could get some visible light filter in there.
|
| Alternately, try some polarizing filters instead.
| michaelt wrote:
| Try diffuse lighting - the classic option is a light pointing
| at a white shower curtain. That should cut down on the
| specular reflections.
|
| Alternately, get yourself a movable light, a live view
| through the camera, and move the light around until you find
| a position that gives you a good image.
| MengerSponge wrote:
| > unfortunately my washing machine does not have an API
|
| I'd love to see the breakdown of who would prefer a network-
| connected washing machine with an API vs who would prefer a
| device that you have to operate with buttons and switches like
| a cave man.
| teekert wrote:
| I guess a time is near when we want our washing machines and
| dryers to operate at peak solar power. So some kind of (very,
| very preferably local) api would be nice.
| clarkema wrote:
| Caveman here. I put the washing in and then set a countdown
| timer on my watch.
| hamburglar wrote:
| Would be interesting to intercept the network traffic going
| from the washer to the manufacturer's web service. It's
| possible the API is simple enough that you could sub in your
| own little server that accepts and tracks the status events.
| ubergesundheit wrote:
| I've done a similar thing with a "dumb" washing machine using a
| Arduino with an attached LDR (light-dependent resistor) taped to
| the "door open" LED.
|
| The Arduino sends the value of the LDR over serial port to a
| laptop which sends changes to the "door open" over Signal to my
| phone
| aabdelhafez wrote:
| Side question: you can use Signal programmatically?
| realworldperson wrote:
| [dead]
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| >Putting aside any worries about connecting a high-speed rotating
| device to the internet
|
| We should beware of these dangers, not brush them off. A nation-
| state could easily destroy millions of homes if/when these
| Internet-facing APIs are plentiful.
| FredPret wrote:
| When I first moved to Canada, I had no money. I lived in an
| apartment block with a coin-operated washer and drier. But I
| always had to go down the hall to check if my laundry was done.
|
| So I had the idea to wind some wires around the power cable to
| detect the electromagnetic field changes when the machine turns
| on and off. Then this could send a message to a Raspberry Pi
| which could ping me somehow.
|
| I didn't want to leave my Raspberry Pi hanging around in that
| semi-public area though. Also, I couldn't afford one at the time
| anyway!
| eimrine wrote:
| Raspberry is an overkill for this task. A few transistors and
| the cheapest FM transmitter might solve this.
| FredPret wrote:
| But I want a bit to be flipped somewhere, so I can check at
| my leisure. If I miss the FM transmission I have to go down
| the hall to check again (Over the past ten years I've missed
| the last 100% of all FM transmissions passing through my
| local area)
| eimrine wrote:
| If washing is not ready (currency is high) do nothing
| except of maybe accumulating energy.
|
| Else send an endless beep on any frequency you like before
| you manage to take your laundry and disactivate your FM
| beeper.
|
| It still can be implemented using a few transistors. Bonus
| points if implementation of this will be done in such a way
| that other folks can have a good use of the device.
| FredPret wrote:
| That's smart. You could probably cram that into a
| official-looking nondescript plastic box with a backup
| battery that slots over the wire. Now you'd just need to
| keep the transmission power low
| storyinmemo wrote:
| I wish my appliances would just implement Zigbee or MQTT in open
| way.
| noisy_boy wrote:
| Missed writing it in rust and calling it wasm :)
| londons_explore wrote:
| It is notable that washing machines lie about remaining time.
|
| Specifically, there are parts of the wash cycle that are
| indeterminate. How long will it take to get all the clothes wet
| with water - well that will depend on the water pressure and how
| many clothes are inside. How long will it take for the water to
| heat - Well that will depend on how hot it was when it came in
| and the grid AC voltage variation. How long will it take to spin
| - well that will depend how many times it needs to accelerate and
| decelerate to redistribute clothes to find an arrangement to get
| sufficiently low vibration.
|
| So... With all these unknowns, the machine simply gives a kinda
| long estimate, and shortens or lengthens other parts of the
| washing cycle to 'catch up' with the claim. And if some process
| takes _far_ too long, it will just overrun. And if you only put
| one pair of pants in, then it may cut the time back a bit when it
| weighs it and notices.
|
| Washing machine software is now pretty complex!
| mauvehaus wrote:
| We bought a house, and the laundry machines did not convey with
| it. Feeling a bit tighter than usual, we bought a pair of older
| ones for $75 a piece from a local outfit that sells
| reused/unused building supplies.
|
| Having endured precisely the phenomenon you're describing for
| the last decade, having a washer that reliably gets the job
| done in 45 minutes or less is pure bliss.
|
| Yeah, it uses more water, but we're on a well and septic. My
| major complaint from an efficiency standpoint is that it
| doesn't spin out as much water as a modern machine. The dryer
| has to do more work accordingly.
|
| Fortunately, we just had a nice day and put the clothesline up.
| nemo44x wrote:
| It may not be as efficient but it won't need replacement
| every 7 years. That alone makes up for it.
|
| Plus it's probably easy to repair. My Speed Queen is made of
| like 7 parts. Most people will have gone through 3 or 4
| machines by the time mine is dead.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Most washing machines will use more $ in energy in their
| lifespan than they cost to buy. That means it is usually
| worth replacing an old but working one with an energy
| efficient one merely for the energy savings.
|
| A modern EU machine will wash a large (10kg) load of
| clothes for 0.5 kwh of energy and 50 liters of water (13
| gallons).
|
| An old 1980's machine might use 4.5 kwh of electricity, and
| 180 liters of water.
| nemo44x wrote:
| It's interesting because although not unimportant, the
| outcome I'm looking for when buying a washing machine is
| how well it cleans clothing. Of course price, speed, and
| efficiency cone into play. But I think many efficient
| machines do a poor job at cleaning.
|
| Of course different people have different requirements.
| If you rarely have soiled clothing maybe it doesn't
| matter. If you have kids and jobs/hobbies that soil
| clothing you may also have different expectations.
|
| Also where you are in the world. In the USA energy is
| generally cheap and on many places water is plentiful. If
| I were in Germany where energy policy has been poorly
| managed I'd probably have to consider efficiency more.
| temporal828 wrote:
| > But I think many efficient machines do a poor job at
| cleaning.
|
| Not in my experience. A good high efficiency front loader
| tends to get the clothes cleaner - and notably with much
| less wear than conventional top loaders. The money
| savings also come from clothing replacement as well.
|
| Water use aside it's just better technology. Complexity
| is an issue, but I've had good luck by staying brands and
| models proven for reliability.
| nemo44x wrote:
| The problem with front loaders, and it's a fatal flaw
| unfortunately, is they unavoidably have mold and mildew
| problems due to the design. This makes them an invalid
| option in my opinion as I don't want mold and mildew
| spores in my home. They also begin to stink and your
| clothing can pick it up over time as it gets worse.
|
| The other problem is many top loaders today are garbage.
| In order to be effective they do need a good agitator and
| they do need use a lot of water. The water part doesn't
| really matter to me though as tap water is so cheap we're
| talking a few cents per load.
|
| Also speed. A front loader takes a long time. A good top
| loader (like Speed Queen) is done in 30m.
| temporal828 wrote:
| > is they unavoidably have mold and mildew problems due
| to the design.
|
| Keep the door open. The water evaporates. Never had a
| problem avoiding mold.
| mauvehaus wrote:
| As long as we're swapping anecdotes, I spent a day
| cutting MDF for a project and came home just covered in
| fine brown dust. The place we rented before we moved had
| an LG HE front-loader.
|
| My blue pants remained brown from the dust for a couple
| of cycles. My carpenter neighbor has had the same
| experience with HE machines and has gone to a Speed Queen
| top-loader. He finds it much more satisfactory as well.
| temporal828 wrote:
| You don't have to go by anecdotes, you can go by
| published testing then. Dust may be a special case, and
| perhaps certain occupations may be better off with a top
| loader for work clothes, but for everyday stains and body
| secretions front loaders work better and wear out clothes
| slower.
|
| I'm not in the anti top-loader Speed Queen cult at all...
| but it is that on the internet, a cult (when I hear
| things like mold is "unavoidable", and basically you'd
| have to be an idiot to consider anything other than a
| Speed Queen top loader that is my conclusion) -- but most
| people are simply better served with a front loader.
| sdfhbdf wrote:
| I'm sure it's just an example but being european I am
| surprised at the 10kg load. Most people I know hover
| around ~5-7 kg max capacity for their washing machines.
| They're usually placed in bathrooms or kitchens since not
| a lot of people have space for a separate washing machine
| room since also not a lot of people have dryers in the EU
| (at least they're not standard, they're considered
| extra).
|
| Not your point but just adding my two eurocents
| rsynnott wrote:
| Taking a random appliance vendor's list of machines,
| there are a good few 9 or 10kg ones, but 6-7kg is also
| common: https://powercity.ie/groups/view?grp=40&class=01
| (the very most expensive one they sell does _18kg_; I had
| no idea that was a thing...)
| hoseja wrote:
| Using more water is a feature IMO. I want clean clothes. I
| don't care insane people decided to live ten million a city
| without enough water to use, there is more than enough where
| I live. Why should I be uselessly frugal with abundant
| resources and suffer as a result.
| avianlyric wrote:
| More water is only a feature if you're using stone age
| detergents. Modern detergents don't benefit from more
| water, but they do benefit from better agitation.
|
| Modern detergents use enzymes to break down dirt and
| material to bonds dirt to your clothes (like oils and
| fats), they need good agitation to physically separate the
| loosened material, where surfactants in the detergent can
| then bond to dirt and keep it suspended in the water.
| They're so good, at keeping dirt in the water, that you
| just need enough water to saturate the clothes, and form a
| small amount of cleaning liquor. A drain and rinse cycle
| then completely removes the dirt from your clothes.
|
| Adding more water makes the agitation far less efficient,
| because rather than being able to pick up and drop your
| clothes on to other clothes, or the hard surface of the
| wash drum, your clothes hit water first which cushions the
| impact. Resulting is less effective removal of dirt.
|
| Finally modern detergents work best with plenty of time.
| The enzymes doing the heavy lifting don't get consumed in
| the process, so the longer they're in contact with your
| clothes, the more dirt they can break down. (Also worth
| mentioning enzymatic cleaners don't damage most fabrics at
| all, because they're carefully designed to only target
| dirt)
| rsynnott wrote:
| Using a lot of water doesn't really correlate with clean
| clothes. Actually, it may slightly negatively correlate;
| the biggest water users are old-style top loaders, and per
| Which, Consumer Reports et al, those are pretty
| consistently worse at actually _cleaning_ than either
| modern front load machines or modern high-efficiency top-
| loaders.
| londons_explore wrote:
| More water uses more energy to heat too. And the energy
| cost of heating water is much higher than even that of
| desalinating water.
|
| A modern machine makes clothes just a little wet for the
| warm wash cycle. That detaches all the dirt and gets oils
| emulsified. Then later it rinses with lots of cold water.
| That gets you the best of both worlds - you still get
| really clean clothes, but only had to heat a small amount
| of water to do so.
| jemmyw wrote:
| It's a real PITA because the dryer time is fairly consistent.
| Leave stuff sitting wet in the washing machine too long and it
| picks up a musty smell, so ideally the dryer is done before the
| washing machine. But the washing machine is so bad at
| estimating it's remaining time, and it is dependent on the
| load.
| jve wrote:
| My drier says its 2 min left but it keeps updating the ending
| time... well it is somewhere near the end, just maybe
| measuring humidity and carrying on?
| jemmyw wrote:
| Mine does that if the filters got unusually clogged by the
| last load and I didn't notice and clean them.
| londons_explore wrote:
| This suggests you are doing multiple loads back to back...
| Which in turn suggests you are either seperating whites and
| coloured clothes (no longer necessary with modern clothing,
| detergents and low temp wash cycles), or you are underfilling
| your machine (modern machines can wash about 20 lbs of
| clothes - 100 tshirts - in one go without wash quality
| degrading).
| skazazes wrote:
| In my experience, separating whites (not only so they can
| be bleached when wanted) from darks from colors is
| definitely still necessary?
|
| I actually turned a beige sweater that snuck into the wrong
| load beige-blue just yesterday with a pair of AG Jeans that
| have been washed every other week since I got them two
| years ago
| jemmyw wrote:
| I don't see much colour running happening except with
| brand new clothing, which I always wash separately the
| first time. Maybe you're washing too hot?
| jemmyw wrote:
| 3 kids and some foster animals, so I have normal full loads
| plus some stuff that really needs to be washed separately.
| On a normal day it's not a problem. But if anything happens
| that causes a washing backlog then it starts getting
| logistical and that's when the timer makes things harder. I
| don't separate whites except for my kids karate gear. My
| washing machine does 10kg which is 22lbs. I try to fill it
| where possible.
| avianlyric wrote:
| I have done something similar to OP with my Miele washer. Once
| you start a cycle it begin filling the drum, and analysing how
| much water your clothes absorb, at which point it re-estimates
| the wash duration based on the measured load size.
|
| Based on the stats I've collected, once it done that re-
| estimate (which is usually reducing the cycle length slightly),
| the new duration will be spot on nine times out of ten.
| Occasionally it take longer than normal to balance the drum for
| the spin cycle, and I can see the machine adjusting it wash
| duration in my stats.
|
| I've also noticed the Miele machine seems I incorporate info
| from previous wash cycles. So the initial estimate it provides
| before you hit start, will slowly adjust to match wash duration
| of your typical load. As a consequence, if the machine says it
| gonna be done in 1:40, it's pretty much guaranteed to be done
| in 1:40, and probably completed in 1:20-1:30. So more than
| accurate enough to plan around.
| salmonlogs wrote:
| Also own some newer Miele washer/dryer and found the
| estimated time is almost perfectly accurate
|
| I connected the Wi-fi for the app and I get a push
| notification to tell me the actual time remaining once its
| done the measurements
| nathan_phoenix wrote:
| Was always wondering why laundry sometimes takes longer
| although I put in the same quantity of clothes. Now it makes
| sense. Thanks for the explanation, very informative!
| eur0pa wrote:
| Why is your washing machine connected to the internet?
| 4ggr0 wrote:
| Notifications when a cycle is done, time-based starting of
| cycles (put the clothes in the machine when you leave, but only
| start the cycle so that it's done when you're back, or just
| manually start a cycle from your phone while you're away),
| control your washing machine with voice assistants, maybe a few
| more things.
| eur0pa wrote:
| That sounds like something a simple timer would be able to
| achieve. To each their own, but the only thing that is
| connected to the internet in my home is the phone, and the
| PCs.
| mavhc wrote:
| now connect the timer to the network so it can be activated
| with certain conditions, eg: I'm leaving work, the live
| traffic estimates 87 mins until I arrive, start the machine
| so it finishes when I get home.
|
| Or: Energy will be cheapest to buy at 2:30am, start then.
|
| Or: There is currently enough excess solar power to run the
| machine only using solar (bonus points for checking weather
| forcasts)
| 4ggr0 wrote:
| Yeah my washing machine is not smart either and I don't
| mind that it's dumb, but I get why people like them.
|
| If I had one I would of course add it to a secured VLAN,
| and not my regular network :D
| zeristor wrote:
| I've just had a "Smart" Samsung washing machine installed.
|
| It says it is Internet ready. I am not sure what they mean by
| internet ready, it seems I have to change the name of the WiFi
| point to have no crazy characters, and just have 2.4 Ghz, turning
| 5GHz off in order to connect it.
|
| But this means my smart scales now need to be set up since the
| WiFi name has changed.
|
| Am I missing a trick, I guess it is possible to set up, but it is
| a bit gruelling.
| dicknuckle wrote:
| You might be able to set up a virtual access point or "guest
| network" with a different name.
| aivisol wrote:
| I am curious what is the smart thing about washing clothes
| while being connected to Internet? Manufacturer approved only
| washing powder/tablets?
| heartbreak wrote:
| I used to have my laundry machines in my attached garage,
| outside of the living space and separated by sufficient
| insulation that I couldn't hear the buzzer go off. Those
| machines had WiFi, and I'd get a push notification when the
| cycle was done. I never used any other "connected" feature,
| but that one was nice.
| mike50 wrote:
| Ahh 10 year old wifi problems. Did you try the hex key instead
| of ASCII?
| MisterTea wrote:
| My old early/mid 90's washer Maytag dryer set was starting to
| fall apart few years ago so they were replaced with an LG washer
| and dryer set with WiFi. The only use I can ever envision a
| washer needing WiFi for is telling me the remaining time and when
| the cycle is done.
|
| Before I even connected the WiFi I did some research to see if
| the washer/dryer could be monitored from a 3rd party app. Nope.
| The washer has to talk to an LG server. So I poke around some
| more and find that there is an API for LG appliances, cool right?
| Nope. You need to be a "valued partner." Apparently paying $2000
| for the two machines is not valued by LG.
|
| In the end the washer and dryer remain dumb appliances because I
| control MY appliances. Go die in a fire LG. And that goes for
| every other IoT e-waste manufacturer.
| belugacat wrote:
| Great hack, but I'm sure any engineer worth their salt winces at
| the thought of a machine in their home roundtripping through far
| away 3rd party servers (I guess they're the manufacturer's, but
| if it's hardware I own in my house those servers are 3rd party to
| me) just to notify them of a numerical value when they're sitting
| literally 10 meters away (I live in the countryside and
| experience internet interruptions not infrequently, things
| running locally matter a lot to me).
|
| I was thinking the other day as I was remodeling my kitchen that
| I would happily pay several times the price of regular appliances
| (fridge, clothes washer, dish washer) if they were built with a
| tasteful, minimalist design (eg 1960s Braun style), quality
| materials, and fully open source PCB/firmware/schematics/etc. I'm
| probably not the only one. It'd be a weird niche market but
| perhaps there's something there.
|
| If you tie it with the building consumer awareness of right to
| repair, anti consumerism, planned obsolescence, etc, the
| marketing just writes itself.
|
| Maybe that's a kind of company I want to start myself, having
| worked in consumer hardware for a long time and thinking about my
| next step, but if anyone wants to take the idea go ahead.
| inconceivable wrote:
| a few years ago i bought a bluestar platinum range. that's
| probably the closest you're going to get these days. it's all
| gas + mechanical, all stainless and iron, works during a power
| outage, etc. i looked around and didn't see any PCB's, just
| wiring for the lights, igniters, and convection fans. the
| broiler is a gas salamander style top grill.
|
| ... it was $6000 for a 30" range but it's more powerful than
| anything other than commercial gear. you really do have to pay
| up for simplicity. iirc it was more expensive than the
| equivalent wolf, viking, etc. and weird european brands like la
| cornue don't make 30".
|
| most people say they're willing to pay more for this kind of
| thing, but very, very few people actually do. it's also made in
| the US, another thing people claim they will pay for, but
| usually don't.
| fountainofage wrote:
| You've reminded me of a friend of mine who reached the point
| in his life where he was going to furnish his home with new
| furniture. He boasted how he was only going to buy American
| and wasn't going to be like everyone else favoring stuff from
| elsewhere. After one day of furniture shopping exclusively
| American, he said he couldn't justify spending so much just
| to buy American. And I was dumbfounded. Like he honestly
| believed people weren't buying American-made because they
| actually favored stuff from China. The thought it was a cost
| issue never crossed his mind until he had to spend his own
| money.
| michaelt wrote:
| _> Like he honestly believed people weren 't buying
| American-made because they actually favored stuff from
| China._
|
| Perhaps he imagined American-made carried a 30% price
| premium over Chinese-made, but instead found it was more of
| a 300% price premium.
| fountainofage wrote:
| That's a fair interpretation. Admittedly I've known him
| long enough that I'm familiar with these experiences of
| his, so I didn't probe too much into this exact event and
| what he thought everyone else was doing.
|
| He also at one point pursued a diet in which he'd eat
| vegan as long as it was the best option available. And it
| was just like ... that's almost what literally everyone
| else does? He seemed to believe most people just ignored
| certain menu options by default, versus ordering the item
| that seemed most appealing to them. He thought people
| looked at a menu and thought "oh, that eggplant vegetable
| medley sounds amazing! Drat, it doesn't have chicken,
| guess I'll just get the cheeseburger."
| inconceivable wrote:
| mm hmm. yup. also "justifying" an expense is one of those
| words i am very skeptical of. you can either afford it, or
| you can't. fwiw i didn't get the matching fridge, because i
| couldn't afford both (this was cash out of pocket, not some
| insane mortgage refi/heloc).
|
| it came down to a choice and the range was more important
| to me. i did get the awesome matching vent hood though...
| and learned a lot about sheet metal ducting work because
| the installers botched that with a half-ass rush job. i got
| a refund on the install fee.
|
| protip: never schedule installs on a friday afternoon.
| throwaway290 wrote:
| Check out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=migRN4P1wGI. Tape on
| a thing that gets activated by dumb washing machine LEDs and
| notifies your phone without any third-party server. Really cool
| stuff!
|
| I thought this article would be along those lines except more
| sophisticated (OCR to read remaining time? sure why not!) and
| was slightly disappointed
| davemp wrote:
| > I would happily pay several times the price of regular
| appliances . . . if they were . . . fully open source
| PCB/firmware/schematics/etc . . .
|
| How willing would you be to pay 1-2 factors less for the
| Shenzhen clone that hits market 1-2 weeks later based on the
| same open designs?
|
| There's a reason these companies don't exist, you have no
| competitive edge except good will.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| I've had the same day dream many times, we might be on to
| something. I even have this "playbook" about parts and branding
| and stuff, all while encouraging third party creation of
| spares.
|
| It's hitting a part of the beast (current vendors) they can't
| defend against, because their sunk costs make it impossible to
| embrace repair and keep "forever" - tech.
| foobarbecue wrote:
| I think we need a big community database website full of
| instructions for taking control of your appliances. I would
| take a month off of work to contribute to that and get my
| devices under my control without needless internet
| interactions.
| thunfischbrot wrote:
| I enjoyed this reverse engineering, using a direct connection
| within your home network after the keys have been extracted
| after an initial authorization to the Bosch/Siemens cloud:
| https://trmm.net/homeconnect/
| nsxwolf wrote:
| That sounds neat, but pay _several times_ more? I 'd have a
| hard time justifying 10% more for that to my wife.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| I'd pay more for NO firmware in my washing machine.
|
| This is beyond my desire to just keep things simple. What is
| the point of washing machine you can control remotely? You have
| to put clothes in at the start and take them out at the end. It
| offers no convenience.
| hammyhavoc wrote:
| Example of why someone would want to control it remotely: not
| infrequently, people pay less for energy used between x and y
| hours that are allocated to them specifically as a customer,
| or, also not uncommonly, people pay less for energy post-
| midnight prior to dawn when demand is lower, ergo, they can
| save a significant amount of money by doing their laundry at
| 3am.
|
| The above doesn't apply to me specifically, but I would like
| notifications when my washing is done and thus when I can put
| another load in. This can be done with energy metering or
| sensors that attach to washing machines or tumble dryers, but
| not done it yet myself, but would very much like to.
| sokoloff wrote:
| I'm also in favor of simplicity, but I think there is an
| increase in reliability from a microcontroller-based system
| over one built from discrete logic gates, a mechanical timer,
| or electromechanical relays. I get that you might not want
| updatable firmware or might not want communications off the
| board, but you probably do want a microcontroller-based (with
| the associated firmware) machine.
| j45 wrote:
| It's less about desire and imagining there may be perfectly
| reasonable scenarios that exist without one needing to be
| aware of them or them having to be universally applicable.
|
| I found little utility for appliances with remote access
| until the number of humans to keep fed and clothed grew
| beyond myself and a partner.
|
| How?
|
| Every little tweak can add up to a staggering amount of time
| around monotony in a lifetime.
|
| A basic example: https://efficiencyiseverything.com/water-
| per-second/
| rileymat2 wrote:
| I disagree. I would like a machine that I could start when I
| want, I don't like when I start a load before leaving the day
| then having it sit in the damp until I get home to put it in
| the dryer. I would prefer to be able to start it an hour
| before I was going home so it would be ready for transfer to
| the dryer then.
|
| I also would like phone notifications, it is sort of in a
| corner of the basement so I don't hear the alarms.
| Dead_Lemon wrote:
| A mechanical controlled washing machine with a mechanical
| timer on the plug would, reliably, achieve the same thing.
| no need for networks and external servers. A timed
| controlled smart plug, with current monitoring, would be
| able to achieve the IOT aspect of the problem.
| dicknuckle wrote:
| It would need to be a very specific kind of washing
| machine (that hopefully probably exists) to make your
| idea work.
|
| A fully analog/mechanical washing machine is just a big
| mechanical timer controlled relay behind the knob like a
| toaster oven. If you set it without power, it just runs
| through the timer without doing anything.
|
| The machine would need to have a timer mechanism that is
| turned by an electric clock motor, not a mechanical
| spring with gears etc.
|
| Or you could possibly set up an electric actuator that
| blocks the knob from turning. Then trigger both the
| power-on relay and the actuator retraction to do both at
| the same time.
| titzer wrote:
| > A fully analog/mechanical washing machine is just a big
| mechanical timer controlled relay behind the knob like a
| toaster oven. If you set it without power, it just runs
| through the timer without doing anything.
|
| My washer has dials to select the modes and then a final
| push button that activates an internal relay (guessing
| from the loud mechanical switching sound it makes when it
| goes on). If all you need to do is complete the circuit
| of the push button. You can just unmount that push button
| and hook its wires up to your timer mechanism which
| completes the circuit when the timer expires.
|
| The dryer on the other hand does have a mechanical timer.
| But that doesn't activate until you turn the dryer on
| with the push button. So you could set the time of the
| dryer and not turn it on either, and use the same
| mechanism as above.
| pwg wrote:
| >The machine would need to have a timer mechanism that is
| turned by an electric clock motor,
|
| Pure mechanical timer based washing machines have been
| driven by electric clock motors (line powered) for at
| least 50 years (as that is as far back as I remember
| knowing how they worked). So if line power is out, the
| timer does not run.
|
| Of course, the delay timer on the line would need enough
| power handling capacity to carry the load of the washing
| machine.
| rocket_surgeron wrote:
| I highly doubt a mechanical timer would be more reliable
| than a micro and some buttons.
|
| I can't think of a single mechanical device that is more
| reliable than an equivalent solid-state version of that
| same device.
|
| Solid state relay vs electromechanical relay. Timex
| quartz watch vs. an automatic or manual watch.
|
| Laundry rooms can be both hot and cold, are almost always
| humid, are often home to caustic chemicals, and a dryer's
| components are constantly exposed to dust in the form of
| lint: the perfect use case for solid state.
|
| Spraying a pcb with a coating is much cheaper and more
| reliable than sealing a mechanical mechanism.
|
| Instead of resisting, the smart move is to agitate for
| and promote secure, open, standards.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| It's nice, I'm with you, but if your machine have tiny
| screen with remaining time (yes it's not very accurate) -
| "hey siri set timer for 90minutes" works fine enough.
| _Wintermute wrote:
| Every basic washing machine I've owned has had an option to
| delay the start for an adjustable amount of time.
| rileymat2 wrote:
| My schedule is erratic and unpredictable at the beginning
| of the day, but I can estimate when I have an hour left.
| Wistar wrote:
| This is also true for me, and, I suspect, for many
| people.
| nonethewiser wrote:
| I guess there is some utility then. I find that to be very
| narrow and outside my personal preferences but recognize
| that you find it useful.
|
| In theory you don't need a computer/internet to start it
| later, but that would require you knowing when you want to
| start it upfront. Meaning there is still a unique
| capability for the smart washer.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| The only thing I could agree with is if it started at at time
| when the spot-price of electricity was low.
| [deleted]
| itsthejb wrote:
| I've thought the same. But quite anti-social for apartment
| dwellers
| salmonlogs wrote:
| Miele already offer this on newer washing machine. They can
| connect to your inverter too and start a load when there is
| available local solar/battery/low spot prices.
|
| It's called "SmartStart"
|
| It works very well in my experience. Load the machine in
| the morning, and it will start later in the day, then send
| my phone a notification when the load is done
| unwind wrote:
| But how would that work in practice?
|
| You load the machine say in the afternoon/evening after
| work etc, and then it decides based on historical data that
| 02:35 is the local minima and starts. You run the quick
| 1-hour program because it's Good Enough(tm), then the
| laundry lies wet in the machine from 03:45 until you wake
| up around 06:00 to start your day hanging it? In my
| experience, but perhaps this is just local circumstance
| (climate etc) you can't leave damp laundry in the machine
| for hours on end, it will get smelly and need to be re-
| washed.
|
| Also, not being able to plan when you deal with the wet
| laundry because of the power price hunting feature sounds
| super annoying and stressful. Perhaps there's an assumption
| that after the laundry it will also tumble dry; we rarely
| do that due to it being bad for the clothes and costly in
| energy etc.
| vegardx wrote:
| In Europe spot prices are announced 24 hours in advance
| so it's actually very easy to this. It's super handy for
| things like battery-electric vehicles or central heating.
| For the latter you also take in the weather forecast into
| your model, and voila, lower power usage, better comfort.
| For BEV you can easily set plans to charge it even more
| than usual to take advantage of unusual drops.
|
| My washer and heat-pump dryer don't really use that much
| electricity. They've become super efficient. There are
| better and lower hanging fruits than such appliances
| these days.
| jve wrote:
| There is a ripe for socket power relay that you can
| configure when should the power come on based on
| electricity spot price.
| BeefWellington wrote:
| I've often wondered why no new manufacturer has appeared
| with a stacked system that can wash clothes in a top
| washer and then dump them into a bottom dryer, or even an
| all-in-one frontloader.
| vegardx wrote:
| Front-loaded machines with both a washer and heat-pump
| dryer exists. I've had one for many years. It's quite
| handy if you have light loads, but I much prefer having a
| stack of separate washer and dryer, even though it means
| I have to manually move them from one to the other.
| NickNameNick wrote:
| Combo washer/driers exist. They typically have less
| capacity than stand-alone units.
| psd1 wrote:
| Drying performance is shit. Especially since you can pack
| a washing-machine fairly full without affecting
| performance, but a tumble-dryer needs to be loosely
| filled. But even so, the combo machines don't dry well.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| Probably because that would much more mechanically
| complex and therefore expensive and failure-prone, and
| the market has decided that the existing options are good
| enough (I'm not defending this, just describing what I
| see).
| nonethewiser wrote:
| That is an interesting idea. I guess you could probably set
| that up somehow. Although I'm not sure if you can
| necessarily access that data live from your electricity
| company. I imagine you could probably just accomplish the
| same thing by running at 3am every night.
| [deleted]
| atyppo wrote:
| I'd absolutely pay for some features of a smart washing
| machine, like a way of telling whether there's a load
| currently running. I live in NYC where my building has one
| (non-commercial) W/D set for ten residents. Climbing up 6
| floors with a heavy laundry basket sucks and avoiding
| wasteful trips would be something I would pay a huge premium
| for if I could add it on.
| illiarian wrote:
| This is solved by a scheduling system which in its most
| simple form would be purely mechanical:
| https://www.thenewbieguide.se/laundry-in-sweden/
| cemoktra wrote:
| My washing machine displays a remaining time when you start
| it but is constantly wrong. So you go to the basement to find
| out it needs 15 more minutes. You go down 20min later and
| still 5min left. It is very pleasant to know when it is ready
| without going to the basement
| dochtman wrote:
| I wonder if the Thread/Matter standards will be able to improve
| on this once adopted. At least they provide open standards and
| don't require cloud components for supported devices to
| communicate with your (pocket and otherwise) computers.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| If the device didn't incorporate zigbee, which has been
| around for years and years now, why would it incorporate
| Thread/Matter?
| illiarian wrote:
| > At least they provide open standards and don't require
| cloud components for supported devices to communicate with
| your (pocket and otherwise) computers.
|
| Previous standards didn't require this either, and yet every
| single manufacturer made their devices only work through an
| internet-connected hub.
| Dragony wrote:
| I actually worked on an App for a company that made home
| appliances. Originally they made everything local, so direct
| App to Washing machine communication. They had a really hard
| time with that approach for a number of reasons.
|
| The first, and most obvious, reason is that getting your phone
| and (all) your appliances on the same network is non-trivial.
| Especially for a novice user. Sometimes the washing machine is
| in the basement and can't connect to your WiFi. Or maybe you're
| simply outside your house in your car and can't connect to your
| local network. The cloud approach solves this.
|
| The other, not so obvious reason, is that the manufacturer made
| a ton of devices. Some of them a decade old, with very
| rudimentary interfaces. Originally the App had to handle
| special cases and workarounds for dozens of devices. This
| became a problem once they tried to port it to multiple
| platforms. For Android and iPhone they started with a shared
| C++ library. But that quickly became a problem, once they
| wanted to interface with popular home network and automation
| solutions.
|
| To solve all this they decided to build a cloud API that would
| resolve all these problems in one go. A single, unified API
| with a modern HTTP interface and available via the internet.
| That solves the workaround and compatability issues by having a
| single abstraction layer (instead of one per app). It solves
| the "on the go" problem when you're not in you local wifi. It
| enables you to control devices outside your home network in a
| true IoT sense.
|
| I totally agree with you that, if you're not in an urban
| environment with good internet and cell coverage, the
| advantages dwindle away. Also, of course, there is the privacy
| concern that is very real. At the end of the day the cloud
| solution is selected for the same reason companies select
| Electron. It saves development time and is very easy for the
| average end user to use. At the expense of performance and
| privacy.
| dylan604 wrote:
| >Sometimes the washing machine is in the basement and can't
| connect to your WiFi
|
| ...snip...
|
| >The cloud approach solves this.
|
| How? You just stipulated the machine can't connect to wifi
| maweki wrote:
| Your WiFi.
|
| They clearly stated that getting devices on the same
| network is non-trivial. Obviously, at a place where no
| network access exists anyways, neither local nor cloud
| solutions will work.
| hammyhavoc wrote:
| If somebody required WiFi in an area of the home where it
| wasn't already, why not just use a repeater/mesh node? If
| someone wants their smart appliance online, a few extra
| dollars on top of a likely three-to-four digit purchase
| appliance is nothing.
| MisterTea wrote:
| > The first, and most obvious, reason is that getting your
| phone and (all) your appliances on the same network is non-
| trivial.
|
| What other networks do homes have? Every WiFi ISP router I
| have used provides a single network and DHCP server. Perhaps
| some routers provide both a public and private WiFi and the
| consumer doesn't understand which one they should pick but
| that is the fault of the ISP.
|
| > Sometimes the washing machine is in the basement and can't
| connect to your WiFi. Or maybe you're simply outside your
| house in your car and can't connect to your local network.
| The cloud approach solves this.
|
| How does the cloud fix poor/no WiFi signals? This is pure
| ignorance. Perhaps you are confusing cloud with "stick a SIM
| in everything" 5g marketing which isn't really a thing yet. I
| stopped reading the rest of your post at that point.
| c0nsumer wrote:
| > What other networks do homes have? Every WiFi ISP router
| I have used provides a single network and DHCP server.
| Perhaps some routers provide both a public and private WiFi
| and the consumer doesn't understand which one they should
| pick but that is the fault of the ISP.
|
| Think of times when your phone might not have connected to
| WiFi because you just got home, or are in some random dead
| spot. Or it just... isn't for a moment.
|
| From the perspective of many consumers, without that
| always-available-via-cloud central point, it's then
| "broken".
|
| Put it all in the cloud and so long as the phone and the
| device can get to "the internet" it'll be working.
| kevviiinn wrote:
| But it's trivial to have the app display a message
| "please connect to your WiFi network"
| c0nsumer wrote:
| What if the person has two networks at home? Or ends up
| on the neighbor's that they sometime use? Or their saved
| guest network? The user could well think "I am..."
| whether they are or aren't.
|
| How would the phone know the /right/ network? All it can
| really know is it can't find the appliance.
| joaonmatos wrote:
| Many cases I knew, people would have several repeaters and
| extra routers to extend coverage in big houses, and not set
| it up correctly in PA/Bridge mode, so peripheral network
| devices would be locked behind in a separate NAT'ed subnet.
| c0nsumer wrote:
| I've dealt with this a ton trying to help troubleshoot
| people's home network problems during the early days of
| COVID WFH. [1] Some of the absolute messes I'd see were
| astounding, and they thought everything worked fine
| because all their phones and Apple TVs and kids PCs
| running Steam could all get to their cloud stuff fine, so
| why couldn't their company laptop talk to the printer
| they brought home and plugged into the "router" in the
| basement?
|
| [1] Not something we'd /normally/ do, but when that was
| going on... You just had to get people working.
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| Can we at least consider that the solution to poorly
| designed technology is not more poorly designed
| technology?
|
| If users can't set up routers and extenders properly,
| that may say more about the designers of the routers than
| the people using them.
|
| I'm nominally an expert user, but a lot of these products
| make me WTAF regularly.
| fatnoah wrote:
| > To solve all this they decided to build a cloud API that
| would resolve all these problems in one go.
|
| It solves everything except for the fact that, for people
| like me, it means we'll never actually give network access to
| the devices.
| Schnitz wrote:
| Not judging, but you represent such a small fraction of the
| market that companies simply don't deem it worth it when
| looking at the cost of supporting LAN-only. Just imagine
| the support tickets they'll get.
| vb6sp6 wrote:
| [dead]
| mavhc wrote:
| How does the cloud solve the Washing machine not connecting
| to wifi?
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| > any engineer worth their salt
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| Rule #0:
|
| > Be kind. Don't be snarky.
| hammyhavoc wrote:
| I don't think it would be that niche given how big an industry
| home automation has already become. The general public
| generally don't know what they want until you put it front of
| them. I hadn't thought about that for a kitchen appliance, but
| yes, I would buy one, absolutely, that appeals in a huge way.
|
| If you did start that kind of a company, I'd love to be made
| aware of it.
| LeanderK wrote:
| I have recently come to the conclusion that a major problem is
| that there is no "local" internet. You either have websites
| somewhere out of local network or some app-based solution, but
| there's no "dishwasher.local". And you can't burden consumers
| with IP addresses.
| oefrha wrote:
| There is "local" Internet, it's called LAN. There's
| "dishwater.local" if someone (manufacturer included, though
| I'm pretty firmly against IoS devices) bothers to set it up.
| Local nodes can do multicast/broadcast DNS and discover each
| other. You've probably seen it if you ever used a WiFi-
| connected printer on LAN.
| candiddevmike wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicast_DNS should work fine
| here
| LeanderK wrote:
| ah I never knew that the protocols behind the zeroconf
| services (Bonjour etc.) can also resolve hostnames. Very
| interesting. Although I have to say that in my experience
| these things are not robust enough yet. Setting up the
| printer at work was a pain because it was not automatically
| found (okay, this is a complex network) and at home I have
| a few devices that should talk with each other (some
| running behind switches) but only if I start them in the
| right order.
|
| I wonder why there's no way to let the router handle the
| DNS with some sort of registering/de-registering
| functionality? I would think this to be more robust
| compared to the broadcasting.
| foobarbecue wrote:
| Me too, and I believe our society could have taken a different
| trajectory, in which the values you have are norms.
|
| It's normal to want to have control over every detail of where
| your furniture goes and how your home is decorated, and plants
| in your garden, without consulting some external source of
| control. Why isn't it normal to have the same level of control
| of your appliances and your digital life?
| majormajor wrote:
| Personally, "open source" is very low on the list of things
| that would convince me to pay several thousands dollars extra
| per appliance. That's just way too much money for something
| like "avoid pushing the buttons or getting up without needing
| third party servers." I'll just push the buttons, thanks.
|
| Even just paying multiple times more for reliability in the
| forms of quality components is a hard sale. What if I move? Do
| I want to have to bother trying to take it with me and
| potentially replacing it for the next buyers? What if a new
| dishwasher in a decade is as much better than this one as this
| one is compared to the one I had ten years ago (seems unlikely,
| but possible?)?
| davemp wrote:
| > Even just paying multiple times more for reliability in the
| forms of quality components is a hard sale.
|
| Hard to justify 2-4 the cost when a consumer has no idea if
| it will last 2-4 times as long (or the warranty will be
| honored).
| GuB-42 wrote:
| For your appliances, maybe look at the commercial market. You
| usually get minimalism and quality material (lots of stainless
| steel). Often good reparability, but not much open sourcing I
| am afraid. And certainly several times the price.
|
| Note that commercial dishwashers are not at all like their
| consumer counterparts. They don't really wash the dishes, they
| sanitize them after they have been properly rinsed, and a cycle
| takes minutes instead of hours.
| bramd wrote:
| Totally agree. Buying new appliances is hard if you are blind.
| It's either very cheap stuff that still has buttons, expensive
| stuff with touch screens which are unusable to me or expensive
| stuff that has touch screens and an app to control it. Besides
| not willing to fiddle with a phone and an app for every single
| action, the expensive stuff with apps will be unusable sooner
| or later when the software stops getting support and the
| appliance is still there.
| nemo44x wrote:
| I own a Speed Queen washing machine. The best part is it has no
| digital components and it will last 25 years while also doing a
| superior job in cleaning clothing.
|
| I highly recommend it. Every other brand is crap compared to it.
| szszrk wrote:
| To be clear, this is using manufacturer's developer API to
| interact with their online services and not with the washing
| machine. Also something often managed by Home Assistant and
| alike.
| mleo wrote:
| I have LG ThinQ washer and dryer. A version of ThinQ API uses AWS
| MQTT for communication. I find it helpful to send TTS
| notifications and followup reminders to Sonos when the washer is
| complete, until the door has been opened. The appliance knows
| when the door is opened/closed yet the API does not include this
| detail. Had to add separate contact sensors for that purpose.
| dave78 wrote:
| Did you successfully somehow hook into the MQTT comms? I also
| have an LG washer/dryer and spent some time trying to do this
| but never finished.
| xxs wrote:
| With an old (10+) washing machine accessing the seven segment
| output does the same, yet not a worthy HN topic (and quite
| trivial - some soldering and repotting the silicone dip).
| shautvast wrote:
| >Putting aside any worries about connecting a high-speed rotating
| device to the internet
|
| lol, stuxnet reference? Although I believe the Iranian uranium
| centrifuges weren't actually connected
| mavhc wrote:
| Correct, that's why it used a Windows USB auto prompt flaw, it
| spread via usb flash drives, but only activated if the
| conditions found in the uranium facility were present
| quijoteuniv wrote:
| I can wait to buy an open source machine where i can customise. I
| find the interface with all my last couple of AEG machines
| ridicolous. The only way to get the machine to work the way you
| want is turn it off and start again. I really find myself wishing
| to have a chat with the engineer that programmed this. Very
| frustrating to have to change machines because they do not have
| service manuals available. (Wife could not wait me figuring it
| out). CLI TO MY WASCHINE NOW!!
| mekazu wrote:
| I wonder if the author knows about `watch`. It seems like it
| might've saved some effort with a better outcome.
| jmbwell wrote:
| This is great. I think the next step is to re-implement the Miele
| API and redirect the machine's requests to an internal server you
| control!
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