[HN Gopher] Sailcargo
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Sailcargo
Author : jmacd
Score : 79 points
Date : 2023-04-09 19:28 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.sailcargo.inc)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.sailcargo.inc)
| mikl wrote:
| I guess we're ignoring the fact that human labour is not exactly
| "zero emissions", and old-school shipping like this is a lot more
| labour intensive. If you factor that in, I wouldn't be surprised
| if the climate impact is higher than modern shipping.
| Jalad wrote:
| It seems like the lack of shipping containers would be a big
| bottleneck? Almost all ports around the world have standardized
| on shipping containers for various port logistics, so how can
| these sailing ships integrate with existing ports?
|
| Otherwise though it's an elegant idea. It would be pretty cool to
| see more wind powered ships
| jeffrallen wrote:
| Sailcargo has an integrated rail and crane system to move big-
| bags into the hold.
| throwawaaarrgh wrote:
| It's not like this is alien technology. You park the boat along
| a pier and you hoist a crane over it. There are _a lot_ of
| ships that still need to use ports that are not cargo ships.
| Cargo ships are just one aspect of regular maritime traffic.
| gpm wrote:
| I'm not in the industry, but modern ports seem to me to be
| optimized for offloading ships with cargo stacked high in
| shipping containers on deck without significant obstructions
| interfering with cranes. Not ships with a bunch of masts for
| sails.
| jamiek88 wrote:
| While that is true, 'break bulk' is still very manually
| handled thus expensive.
|
| Things that don't fit in containers basically.
|
| Often its roll on roll off rather than crane.
|
| So there are non container options but if they _could_ use
| containers for break bulk they _would_ so the efficiency of
| this is probably not very high.
| elchief wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakbulk_cargo is still a thing
| darksaints wrote:
| It definitely is still a thing but it has evolved
| substantially due to competition from containers, tankers,
| and dry bulk ships. Nowadays break bulk is almost exclusively
| for things that don't have even a remote possibility of
| breaking down into container sized chunks.
| oliwarner wrote:
| The largest container ship moves over 24 _thousand_ 20-foot
| containers (TEU) with 34 crew. Sailcargo 's Vega Gamleby carries
| fewer than 4 TEU with 14 crew.
|
| I think if you want to make an impact in cargo environmentalism,
| you need better power sources. I'll admit I've only just seen how
| much power we're talking about. 12MW to move a large container
| ship. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe we should buy less tat from the
| other side of the planet.
| lostlogin wrote:
| > buy less tat
|
| According to the below link, trash per human per day ranges
| from:
|
| 0.74 kilogram but ranges widely, from 0.11 to 4.54 kilograms.
|
| That ship carries more than a human makes in waste in a
| lifetime, but not by a huge margin (if you are in a wealthy
| country). That's rather depressing.
|
| https://datatopics.worldbank.org/what-a-waste/trends_in_soli...
| api wrote:
| Autonomous sailing ships are entirely possible today. I wonder
| how cost competitive that would be for less time sensitive cargo,
| which is the largest amount of cargo by mass.
| TomK32 wrote:
| Just to make this clear, you are not suggesting unmanned cargo
| ships?
| moffkalast wrote:
| Good question, why hasn't Saildrone made a cargo version yet...
| duxup wrote:
| The thing is that it's not like less time sensitive cargo isn't
| being shipped.
|
| It is, and it's still pretty fast and cheap.
| hedgehog wrote:
| Counterintuitively wind power could be faster than oil. Oil
| burning ships are optimized for efficiency because fuel is a
| major expense, wind energy is use it or lose it at zero
| marginal cost so there's no reason not to go as fast as
| possible.
| darksaints wrote:
| It could be, but it's not. Optimal speeds for cargo ships are
| going to be their hull speeds, which are usually between 12
| and 18 knots, but these ships are typically traveling 25+.
| Ships often exceed their hull speeds because short times from
| port to port is more profitable than saving fuel. They could
| save 2-4x on fuel costs, but lose far more than that in
| revenue.
| [deleted]
| psychlops wrote:
| I wonder why they wouldn't use a catamaran for a more modern
| version giving the ship more speed. Perhaps the center support
| would be prohibitively heavy?
| strongpigeon wrote:
| It's a little hard to see this as more than a pet project to have
| a beautiful ship given that it's not carrying containers. I
| wonder how long it takes to load and unload...
|
| There is a plan to eventually build a container sailboat [0], but
| it's just a rendering. I could be wrong, but I'm getting strong
| "just ~~give us your money~~ invest and we'll totally spend it on
| container ships" vibe.
|
| I don't like sound too negative and would love to be wrong.
|
| https://www.sailcargo.inc/future-fleet
| duxup wrote:
| I've zero understanding of the ship part of shipping but just
| reading the website I get the vibe of someone passionate about
| ships trying to marry that passion to a business in order to pay
| for their hobby.
| ThinkBeat wrote:
| This seems like an extreme niche product.
|
| There is enough oddity here that it sniffs a bit like a scam to
| me. Perhaps unintentional. Probably because they have a proper
| businessplan and I dont yet understand it.
|
| You would need something small, low volume with a giant markup
| run by someone willing to pay a huge premium for virtue
| signaling. (or something else the US market really craves from
| Columbia)
|
| >. Crew 12 crew + 12 guest crew
|
| They also need a supply of people who wish to work for free (?)
| since free workers make up 50% of the crew?
|
| Using wood to construct the boat does not seem like a sensible
| idea apart from the optics.
|
| Are there any laws governing the safety of merchant cargo
| vessels? I would want a proper engine for this thing.
|
| But perhaps they will always sail close enough to shore that they
| won't need more than what they have.
|
| Which may indicate that delivery times might be less predictable
| than other freight and the danger of loss higher.
|
| Insurance costs might become a problem.
|
| "Sorry we will be two weeks late due to weather"?
|
| Perhaps I should get a startup going providing cargo services
| with copies of old viking ships? Renewable power, either ship or
| oars. At least one allegedly made it ot the US and back.
|
| On raids they often came back with a ship filled with loot or so
| I think I have heard.
|
| Dont trust me on this.
| vasco wrote:
| > Insurance costs might become a problem
|
| I believe this was the first big use of insurance too, sailing
| cargo across the world in ships.
| gregatragenet3 wrote:
| Just did some napkin math on this, just the carbon footprint of
| the _crew_ for this ship nets out to almost the _total_ carbon
| footprint of 16.14g-co2 /ton/km for container shipping..
|
| Take the average person's footprint of 7co2-ton/yr, math that out
| with the 80 ton cargo capacity, the short daily distances
| ~250km/day, 14 crew, and you come out with about 12g-co2/ton/km
| just for crew for these schooners. easy to see another
| 4g-co2/ton/km being in just upkeep for a vessel of wood and
| canvass. So yeah if someone wants to virtue-signal, then go for
| it ship your stuff this way but don't think you are actually
| netting out a smaller carbon footprint then a container ship
| here.
| zokier wrote:
| You can probably add some extra also from it not being standard
| container ship so loading and unloading it is likely to be less
| efficient than containers.
| mhb wrote:
| This seems like the place to recommend Tally Ho:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/@SampsonBoatCo/videos
|
| _I'm on a mission to rebuild a 1910 English sailing yacht called
| Tally Ho. Designed by Albert Strange in 1909, she is a well-known
| and important historic vessel - but after many adventures she was
| left in a remote port in Oregon to rot for decades, despite some
| valiant attempts to rescue her. I bought her and moved her to the
| Olympic Peninsular earlier this year, and am now rebuilding her
| from the keel up. Eventually I hope to sail her back to the UK._
| ladino wrote:
| compared to a mega container ship, i bet the carbon footprint of
| this sailing boat is much much greater!
|
| Please compare the sails, antifouling, boat paint per load
| compared to a container ship, its much uglier than you think when
| you compare it to a big size petrol container ship! Just do the
| math! Its has more a symbolic "green thing" character, which is
| good! :)
|
| Even an automatically controlled boat is too expensive concerning
| insurance, fire and so compared to a megaboat with a small amount
| of people.
| mlhpdx wrote:
| Which is faster, crossing the Pacific in the best foiling
| sailboat or one powered by petroleum (i.e. excluding reactor
| power)? We know what's cheaper and cleaner.
|
| Edit: The question is a little facetious but I'm really
| interested in the technology here. Sailboats aren't what they
| used to be, and while building then as they were is charming
| there is nothing practical about it. And, yes, I actually know my
| "futtocks".
| hef19898 wrote:
| If a foil sail boat can carry 10k+ TEUs those two are
| comparable.
| gpm wrote:
| I can probably buy that a modern sailing ship could make sense.
| Automate control of the sails and you're getting "free energy" in
| an energy intensive industry, with the extra cost just being some
| hopefully minor maintenance.
|
| I might be able to buy that "actually, wooden ships are a good
| idea", though it's going to be a hard sell.
|
| This company appears to be trying both at once though, that
| strikes me as a quite unlikely to be a good business decision -
| unless there is some synergy between "wooden ship" and "sailing
| ship" that I'm completely missing.
|
| That said, I know very little about the industry.
| nathannecro wrote:
| Yep, in the last few years, there's been quite a lot of
| movement in the shipping industry to add wind-assist devices to
| existing/new ships. Michelin [1] is basically doing what you
| suggest. Maersk and Cargill [2] are also working on
| technologies that harness wind to decrease fossil fuel use.
| Oceanbird [3] is working on wing-style sails that they claim
| can basically move a cargo ship along at ~10kts.
|
| 1: https://spectrum.ieee.org/michelin-puffy-sails-cargo-
| ships-i...
|
| 2: https://www.cargill.com/the-future-of-shipping-is-sails
|
| 3: https://www.theoceanbird.com
| carlosjobim wrote:
| > Automate control of the sails and you're getting "free
| energy"
|
| There have been auto pilots for sailing ships and motorized
| ships for decades, it's nothing new. Ocean sailing is usually
| keeping the same course and sails for days.
| [deleted]
| samwillis wrote:
| I love the concept of this, I really do, but I'm struggling with
| the implementation and economics of it. Surly they should be
| building ships with more modern materials and technologies -
| lighter fibre glass, modern sail technology. It feels like a
| plaything for the team (and investors) to justify building a
| beautiful sailboat rather than a serious play at at green
| shipping.
|
| Maybe I'm wrong and people will pay absurd prices for coffee
| that's been shipped "green" and carbon free on a sailboat.
| nimbius wrote:
| My honest question is does the economics of a larger crew
| impact the competitivity of the offering? 250 tons is nothing
| to sneeze at for things like gulf seafood shipping
|
| Edit: this is a huge deal for seafood in my opinion because
| your total fuel is impacted by the need to maintain a balance
| between range and what you dedicate to running walk in freezers
| on the ship for your catch.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| I forget the calculations, but there would have to be like
| hundreds of thousands of these ships at all times with
| millions of crew to make a dent the cargo carried in
| container ships.
| gpm wrote:
| Aren't you just say "the total addressable market is huge"?
| That sounds like a good thing for the company trying it.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| Sure, given they can compete commercially against
| containerships. The baseline would be like launching a
| new containership which is just as good, except it has a
| couple of thousand crew instead of a dozen.
|
| Uphill battle...
| gpm wrote:
| I assume the goal would be to automate the management of
| the sails so that the crew could still be only a dozen or
| so large. Replacing crew with computers and electric
| motors.
|
| Otherwise I would be surprised if you could even make a
| good faith argument that this will be commercially
| viable.
| bg46z wrote:
| Most sailing yachts have this system, and it is generally
| prone to failure
| crote wrote:
| The size of the market doesn't really matter when your
| product is not competitive.
|
| As a back-of-the-envelope calculation, shipping a 20ft
| container from Shenzhen to Los Angeles is about $1200 and
| takes about 14 days. Assuming you can sail at the same
| speed, and considering this sail ship has a capacity of
| about 10 containers, that is a revenue of $24000 / month.
| In reality you'll only be able to sail 100 to 150 miles a
| day, so crossing those 6500 miles will take you to 43 to
| 65 days - or a revenue of $5100-$7800 / month.
|
| How are you going to run your ship for that little,
| considering you need 12 crew (and 12 additional "guest
| crew")?
| superice wrote:
| It is something to sneeze at. That's about 10 shipping
| containers. Current gen container ships can hold 15-25k
| twenty foot containers. Even inland barges are typically 10x
| bigger than this.
| sturob wrote:
| Last time I saw something like this they were getting
| additional revenue by charging people to be crew.
| moffkalast wrote:
| [flagged]
| TomK32 wrote:
| A plaything to some is R&D to others.
| notahacker wrote:
| I guess the question is how much R&D is actually involved in
| building schooners modelled on a 1907 design which was itself
| modelled on hundreds of years of what worked well in long-
| distance voyages under sail?
|
| It's a great plaything though!
|
| (Sent from my narrowboat)
| hef19898 wrote:
| Tjose tea clippers are _amazing_ ships, the peak of sail
| boat engineering. And yes, that includes modern foils
| _boats_ , as clippers are significantly larger. So yes, R&D
| would be limited. Building a modern version of a clipper so
| might be expensive. And then, well, those clippers were
| replaced quite early by steam powered ships tgat can only
| be called tiney and slow by modern standards. That, and
| they didn't even carry containers. But hey, maybe there is
| still some VC money to be grabbed through fancy renderings
| and pitch decks.
| iljya wrote:
| actually, sail boats and steam boats coexisted for many
| decades. Sail boats were used for grain and coal
| transport well into the 20th century, though as steam
| engine technology developed, on fewer and fewer routes.
| But it's only the internal combustion engine that made
| sail boats obsolete for shipping.
| jfoucher wrote:
| I used to be a naval architect, and I completely agree with
| you. This type of design is extremely inefficient for cargo
| delivery. I think it is unrealistic to expect to be able to
| even remotely compete with diesel cargo ships. As another
| commenter said, the crew are in fact paying passengers (I have
| not verified this) which means this is actually a cruise ship,
| which makes a lot more sense. It must be a great experience. In
| my mind, the only way sailing ships can come back as work boats
| is if a way is found to make them nearly automatic and space
| efficient. In my mind this means large steel ships, not
| dissimilar to regular cargo ships, but with automated kite
| sails (e.g. https://skysails-marine.com/) as they do not tend
| to tip the ship over like regular sails do.
| throwawaaarrgh wrote:
| Coffee is the perfect product for this because the farmers get
| paid peanuts and the actual coffee is sold to customers at like
| 1000x higher price, so there's probably a lot of room to pay a
| premium for "green logistics" while still making a tidy profit
| fbdab103 wrote:
| I think that's a great way to look at it. Like those vertical
| farms that exclusively targeted luxury/high-margin crops.
| Incapable of competing with real logistical chains, but
| efficient enough to focus on capturing the cream of the
| market.
| callesgg wrote:
| [removed]
| StockHuman wrote:
| For what it's worth, any sailing vessel beats any diesel
| container ship in ocean pollution. That, and ballast tank
| contamination, though that is not unique to any propulsion
| type, but instead to ship design.
| crazygringo wrote:
| If the crew were on land they'd still be eating three meals
| a day.
|
| So I don't see how food factors into this. It doesn't
| really matter if they're eating at another job on shore, or
| eating while crewing a ship.
| danpalmer wrote:
| > Maybe I'm wrong and people will pay absurd prices for coffee
| that's been shipped "green" and carbon free on a sailboat.
|
| Perhaps, but the economics aren't the only side, there's also
| the total impact. While there might be a profitable business in
| this idea, is there a real positive climate impact as
| suggested, or would the effort be put to better use on projects
| that can scale.
| gabereiser wrote:
| As a sailor myself, the fact that we don't use wind like we used
| to for shipping is a huge mistake. So I love this project!
| crazygringo wrote:
| Is this... safe? For the crew?
|
| I was under the impression that vessels of that relatively small
| size can get lost at sea in storms with huge waves when traveling
| between continents.
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